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CMSENGINE
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Posted: 12/26/2009 11:34:23 PM
With all the different calibers for the AR, is there any interest in 22-250? I have built 2, mine has detach mag, my buddy's is a 7 round box. You can squeeze an extra .100 in the mag well length to accomadate the 2.350 max cartridge length. The 7 round box lower, I just machined the inner dimensions of a magazine into the forging. I machined followers out of delrin and used cut down AR mag springs .I machine my own carriers,bolts and extensions.Bolts are a beefy 3 lug spaced 120 degrees evenly. case extraction kicks up about 10-15 degrees more than conventional. Cam angle to lock up bolt is increased from 22.5 degrees to 33.75 degrees. Cam slot was also lengthened to slow unlocking. About 80% reliable right now. Feeding is only issue.I know it can be worked out with better ramp, follower and spring. Biggest problem is magazines. The one company I spoke to wants 8 to $10,000.00 to tool up, plus initial order of $5000.00. The 22-250 with a 75gr at 3200 is pretty potent. I estimate that a good clean M4 or 20 inch would be in the $1250- $1300 range in DI or TAPPET. In BRUTALLY HONEST ARF form, is this worth any further time and developement, or do I have a couple of MUSEUM pieces? My circle of friends are allmost split 50-50. They are pretty much cut and dried. You either shoot 5.56 or 308. No need for anything in between. LET ME HAVE IT !
PAPPYO
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Posted: 12/26/2009 11:40:35 PM
[Last Edit: 12/26/2009 11:43:05 PM by PAPPYO]
Armalite had a limited run way back 5-6 years ago. I'm sure a smith could crank out a barrel on DPMS or AR10 platform. 243 is out there in DPMS. Along with Olympics WSSM platform.

it's a small bunch of varmint hunters you'd cater to. Not really worth mainstream to Manufactures.
TerribleTom
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Posted: 12/26/2009 11:43:31 PM
It sounds kind of cool, but wouldn't it be easier to adapt the AR-10 to the slightly smaller cartridge than the AR-15 to the larger cartridge?

I don't think that you could turn that one product into a profitable business.
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dSmith45
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Posted: 12/26/2009 11:53:29 PM
Too common. Chamber that AR in .224 Weatherby!






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Searcherfortruth
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Posted: 12/26/2009 11:57:36 PM
I'd go for .30-06 AR, but I would rather have a .22-250 in a bolt action rifle.
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wganz
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Posted: 12/27/2009 12:01:57 AM

Originally Posted By TerribleTom:
I don't think that you could turn that one product into a profitable business.

this

Sorry. Sounds like you've done some work on this but don't think that you'll get anything out of it.
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Posted: 12/27/2009 12:05:42 AM
Totally off-topic, but I'm glad that you have finally become a member and started posting here.
I bought my first FAB-10 lowers back in ~'01. Total, I ended up with 3 CMS and 1 SLV FAB-10's. (they have all since been changed to OLL's with BB's)
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elcope
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Posted: 12/27/2009 12:26:42 AM
[Last Edit: 12/27/2009 12:27:38 AM by elcope]
Originally Posted By Searcherfortruth:
I'd go for .30-06 AR, but I would rather have a .22-250 in a bolt action rifle.



There was a MFGR that made a 30-06 AR that used BAR mags, If you're interested I'll rummage through my SGN collection to find the article if I still have it. Or you can ask Gunwritr since he works for them.
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Posted: 12/27/2009 12:41:31 AM
[Last Edit: 12/27/2009 12:42:54 AM by GLHX2112]
22-250 AR...... Not sure if I would personally be interrested in one, but, that is a hell of a round, and, not just for Varmints. I've personally seen what that caliber can do to deer. A lot of deer. Devastating.

Now, an AR in 7.62X54R.......................
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polygon
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Posted: 12/27/2009 12:43:57 AM
Originally Posted By elcope:
Originally Posted By Searcherfortruth:
I'd go for .30-06 AR, but I would rather have a .22-250 in a bolt action rifle.



There was a MFGR that made a 30-06 AR that used BAR mags, If you're interested I'll rummage through my SGN collection to find the article if I still have it. Or you can ask Gunwritr since he works for them.


cobb i do believe
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jh1990
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Posted: 12/27/2009 12:53:38 AM
Originally Posted By elcope:
Originally Posted By Searcherfortruth:
I'd go for .30-06 AR, but I would rather have a .22-250 in a bolt action rifle.



There was a MFGR that made a 30-06 AR that used BAR mags, If you're interested I'll rummage through my SGN collection to find the article if I still have it. Or you can ask Gunwritr since he works for them.


This, an ar chambered in 7.62x54r would attract alot of customers. Magazines would still be a problem
elcope
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Posted: 12/27/2009 2:10:55 AM
Originally Posted By polygon:
Originally Posted By elcope:
Originally Posted By Searcherfortruth:
I'd go for .30-06 AR, but I would rather have a .22-250 in a bolt action rifle.



There was a MFGR that made a 30-06 AR that used BAR mags, If you're interested I'll rummage through my SGN collection to find the article if I still have it. Or you can ask Gunwritr since he works for them.


cobb i do believe


Yep, Cobb MCR 300; used BAR mags

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JoshD
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Posted: 12/27/2009 3:21:59 AM
My guess is that not all, but most, of the people interested in something like that would be varmint shooters. They wouldn't really care about a heavier bullet. If you look at it from that perspective, you probably can't top a .204 which is shooting a 32grn bullet at around 4200, and those are already on the market.

But who knows, I wouldn't have thought the "judge" pistol would sell at all but they seem to be fairly popular.
desertmoon
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Posted: 12/27/2009 3:43:35 AM

Originally Posted By elcope:
Originally Posted By polygon:
Originally Posted By elcope:
Originally Posted By Searcherfortruth:
I'd go for .30-06 AR, but I would rather have a .22-250 in a bolt action rifle.



There was a MFGR that made a 30-06 AR that used BAR mags, If you're interested I'll rummage through my SGN collection to find the article if I still have it. Or you can ask Gunwritr since he works for them.


cobb i do believe


Yep, Cobb MCR 300; used BAR mags



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pv74
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Posted: 12/27/2009 4:03:12 AM
[Last Edit: 12/27/2009 4:03:37 AM by pv74]
I prefer a bolt gun for varmint hunting...

I can neck size for longer case life and more accuracy.
I can keep control of my brass, which is extremly important to me not only for reloading but if I am shooting on someone else's land (with permission of course).

Now the .22-250...oh yes...BOOM!!!......WHOP!!!!! =



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eodtech2000
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Posted: 12/27/2009 4:16:10 AM
Originally Posted By pv74:
I prefer a bolt gun for varmint hunting...

I can neck size for longer case life and more accuracy.
I can keep control of my brass, which is extremly important to me not only for reloading but if I am shooting on someone else's land (with permission of course).

Now the .22-250...oh yes...BOOM!!!......WHOP!!!!! =





Wouldn't mind trying out a .22-250 AR on Coyotes.
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Keith_J
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Posted: 12/27/2009 4:41:27 AM
The problem with the .22-.250 is the extreme body taper on the case. This was a hold-over from the parent .250 Savage (AKA .250-3000 Savage). Back in 1915, that was the classical view and sadly, it persists today among the non-technical field. It does NOT make extraction easier (all revolver rounds have completely straight cases, this prevents binding) and in fact, was a problem in using modern propellants in the .250 Savage. Parker Ackley was first to recognize this, making the "Ackley Improved" modification to this cartridge which HELPED extraction in the venerable Savage 99 chambered in the cartridge.

Now, to the application. Since the .22-.250 is guided by the smaller diameter .22 caliber bullet, taper of the body isn't necessary for feeding. And taper here will prove to be a problem in magazine function, causing the stacked rounds to curve.

Now squeezing this round into the standard AR15 magazine well is a stretch but there have been magazines designed for OALs in the 2.40" range. Making a 20 round into a 8 round .22-.250 Ackley Improved would have definite application. Like shooting 75 grain Swifts at 3400 FPS
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eodtech2000
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Posted: 12/27/2009 5:28:53 AM
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
The problem with the .22-.250 is the extreme body taper on the case. This was a hold-over from the parent .250 Savage (AKA .250-3000 Savage). Back in 1915, that was the classical view and sadly, it persists today among the non-technical field. It does NOT make extraction easier (all revolver rounds have completely straight cases, this prevents binding) and in fact, was a problem in using modern propellants in the .250 Savage. Parker Ackley was first to recognize this, making the "Ackley Improved" modification to this cartridge which HELPED extraction in the venerable Savage 99 chambered in the cartridge.

Now, to the application. Since the .22-.250 is guided by the smaller diameter .22 caliber bullet, taper of the body isn't necessary for feeding. And taper here will prove to be a problem in magazine function, causing the stacked rounds to curve.

Now squeezing this round into the standard AR15 magazine well is a stretch but there have been magazines designed for OALs in the 2.40" range. Making a 20 round into a 8 round .22-.250 Ackley Improved would have definite application. Like shooting 75 grain Swifts at 3400 FPS


Now a .22-250AI, that is what I am talking about!!
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yekimak
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Posted: 12/27/2009 6:07:30 AM
Keith, I think you are mistaken in what you are saying about Ackley's inprovements to cartridges. He was trying to stuff as much powder into a case as he could and found some benefits in the reshaping of the case. One of these was that the case adhered to the chamber more tightly during peak pressure and thus required less strength in the locking mechanism. He actually fired a .30-30 ai in a modified '94 I believe that did not have the lugs installed that locked the bolt in place. Another was less case stretch.

I cannot think how having more contact for a longer time between the breach and case would somehow benefit extraction. It may be in certain applications that the cartridge is more tightly controlled throughout the process, especiallY in a manually operated gun, but any of these benefits would be quickly lost by the less than ideal shoulder angle that the ackley has which makes feeding less reliable.

Also, most revolver cartridges now are derivatives of previous cartridges. Having a straight case in a revolver is more a matter of backwards compatability, safety, and possibly tradition than extraction. I am sure that there are other reasons, but I am pretty sure none of them are extraction, and if they did improve things then we wouldn't need the help from mechanical extraction aids.



OP, this probably is t the place to market something like this so your idea will be somewhat poopooed. Before making any decisions I would try some varmint forums or the like to try and get a more rounded feel for your idea. I like it myself but .22-250 is kind of a waste for me as I do not varmint hunt, but I have seen even more obscure ideas take off before. There is this one company here that got it's start making Glorified rubber bands to put the base of Magazines to make them easier to Pull from pouches. I know another guy who started in his garage making a magazine for a somewhat obscure .22 conversion kit.
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CMSENGINE
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Posted: 12/27/2009 9:31:42 PM
[Last Edit: 12/27/2009 9:50:17 PM by CMSENGINE]
I appreciate all the input. As I have said before, building engines is my bread and butter. Machining and building guns is my therapy. My cost to develope different ideas is small because I do it all myself. On occasion I do like to make a little profit on it once in a while. I have boxes of one off designs that I have lost interest in. The 22-250 is one of them. I only threw it out there because a couple of my buddies were convinced that it would have a large interest. You're right,some varminters love the idea, blasters could care less. The reason I shoehorned it into the AR lower is because AR lower forgings are plentiful, AR10 are not available. Plus its a smaller package. I am allready tooled and jigged up for AR15's and it only took a small program change to do it.I didn't have extraction problems, just feeding. I think part of the problem is that the bullet tip centerline is .050 lower because of larger case diameter.Ramp,follower and spring would fix it I think. As far as 30-06 and 7.62x54, cartridge length is way to long for AR15 type lower. They would be a stretch even in an AR10 lower. Im not sure how well the russian round would feed being a rimmed cartridge. Varmint guys are almost all bolt shooters, at least the ones I know. They have no use for gas guns as they call them. They will go out all day and be lucky to lite off 50 rounds. For me that is like fishing all day and only getting a couple bites. When I do rarely get a chance to go out and shoot, I want to tear some shit up!!! I have a couple of other shelved designs that I am going to dig out and post some pics just for fun. I am not worried about someone stealing my ideas,hell, If they want to make em, more power to them. Makes the marketplace more colorfull.
DD977GM2
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Posted: 12/27/2009 9:39:45 PM
I would prefer an AR in 7.62x54R.
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Posted: 12/27/2009 10:16:23 PM
Originally Posted By DD977GM2:
I would prefer an AR in 7.62x54R.


Yep, in fact, the more I think about it, the more I want one.
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Posted: 12/27/2009 10:22:33 PM
Don't have my Cartridges of the World handy, but what about the .223 WSSM instead?
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Posted: 12/27/2009 10:29:19 PM
If your gonna have one built, make sure you order a bag of barrels with it.

If you really need to shoot a prairie dog with a 22 caliber projo, and the .223/5.56 won't reach it, I suggest you get a little closer.
Keith_J
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Posted: 12/27/2009 11:01:08 PM

Originally Posted By DD977GM2:
I would prefer an AR in 7.62x54R.

Rimmed cartridges? YUCK. Only feeds right from a tubular magazine. Or from a limited round count magazine. Even belted magnums have fallen out of favor because of this alone.

Rebated? Very yummy. Now a wildcat made from the most excellent .284 Win case, shortened to say, 1.75"? In .224", should be a winner.
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