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Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:38:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By luvpilot:
If it flies, floats, or fucks.....



This X 1,000,000,000,000
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:38:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By trwoprod:
Originally Posted By AtomicPunk09:
Cessna 182. Lots more balls than the 172. You can find one used under $100,000.


That would work –– the R models still had the Conti 6 which you could get a mogas STC for. Add Flint tip tanks, wing extensions, Sportsman cuffs, and VGs, and you should have a nice, easy-flying aircraft that can't be crippled by leaded fuel going away overnight any time soon.

So, what engines CAN'T you get a mogas STC for?

Lyco 320 can (all the birds I flew in Korea had one, they don't put booze in their gas)....

P.S. Remember that at this time, a 'mogas STC' does NOT work with Ethanol 'enhanced' (er contaminated) fuel...




Anything with a turbo, most post-1980s engines, and so on. You have to check each one, really. And I am well aware of the ethanol issues, but if Obama's folks decide to pull lead from avgas it will probably be with very little notice. At that time, there will be a five year backlog at any place that can detune the engines. So keeping the ability to use lower octane fuel in mind from the start could make that possibility a lot less stressful.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:39:21 PM EST
Buy a T-55 with spare parts.

Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:39:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By SnoopisTDI:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By trwoprod:
Originally Posted By AtomicPunk09:
Cessna 182. Lots more balls than the 172. You can find one used under $100,000.


That would work –– the R models still had the Conti 6 which you could get a mogas STC for. Add Flint tip tanks, wing extensions, Sportsman cuffs, and VGs, and you should have a nice, easy-flying aircraft that can't be crippled by leaded fuel going away overnight any time soon.

So, what engines CAN'T you get a mogas STC for?

Lyco 320 can (all the birds I flew in Korea had one, they don't put booze in their gas)....

P.S. Remember that at this time, a 'mogas STC' does NOT work with Ethanol 'enhanced' (er contaminated) fuel...


Good point. My roommate in college had an old Stinson 108 with an STC for auto gas, which made flying pretty cheap considering gas was under a dollar a gallon at the time ('99?). But with all the ethanol in gas today, I don't think it would do him much good.


Mogas sold at airports is supposed to not have ethanol in it.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:41:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/20/2009 5:43:06 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By valheru21:
Originally Posted By Walkure:
Originally Posted By thatjonguy:
Originally Posted By Walkure:
Originally Posted By thatjonguy:
Edit: They are not like a Cessna, they have fold up wings and are considered a light-sport aircraft. And they can land on pavement or WATER. Win!


LSA can be pretty crippling, though - limited capacity, limited range.


That they can, but I can't find a reason (for me) to own my own Cessna (lets say) 172. I would rather have a share in one and own my own light aircraft. It is only about 80 miles (on land) to the lake I go to so the A5 would be perfect.

Now, if I had lots of cash I would have a A5, share in a Cessna, some sort of Jet and a Bell Helicopter.


Just reminding the OP (and possibly others) to take the restrictions of LSA into account. If you just want to be flying around, without the need for longer flights or the capcity to hold more people or luggage, then LSA can be a very good option, especially since then you can just maintain Sport Pilot with its lesser requirements (but higher restrictions).


LSA is a very expensive answer to a question no one asked. Seriously, an underpowered high-maintenance airplane for $130k?!? How the hell is that supposed to save General Aviation?

It won't...

Tort Reform - real tort reform, and less FAA over-regulation (Seriously, a 1930s flat-4 tractor motor with 1950s mechanical fuel injection should NOT cost more than most complete CARS to purchase - but that's exactly what a new Lycoming is, and what it costs) is what is needed...

'Course, that will never happen...

The only thing 'good' about the Light Sport category, is for older pilots who want to keep flying without keeping a current med cert...

Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:41:31 PM EST
I'd highly recommend American Champion 7 or 8GCBC Citabria, those things are fun to fly decent airspeed, can do some simple easy aerobatics, can be float rated, has flaps, tail draggers are the best with tundra tires! theyre STOL rated too (49mph stall!! at full flap )140mph max, 112mph cruise 400+ something range. But theyre only 2 seat tandem. Probably not something your looking at... but just thought I'd drop a suggestion. Yes 172 182 are great planes, 172 is best to start with. I started on 172 and 170B. Love the 170B that one had 220shp!!! 20 or 30 percent flap (i forget) and its off the ground in few feet! STOL kit on too.

Citabria's, Cub, SuperCubs, Huskies, and Maules are so much fun for this area, low level slow speed flying around lakes, rivers, fields etc just enjoying the scenery at sunset is just amazing!
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:42:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By fadedsun:
Buy a T-55 with spare parts.



Those don't land very well.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:50:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By thatjonguy:
Icon A5

About $130,000 new and production should start in 2011.

I have my sights set on one later in life.

Edit: They are not like a Cessna, they have fold up wings and are considered a light-sport aircraft. And they can land on pavement or WATER. Win!


oh man. This, I want. What a cool plane.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:52:17 PM EST
First, shop around your local flight schools here
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2002/July/200207_Commentary_Presidents_Perspective.html
and see if they honor the discount intro flight.
Then take a few lessons paid by the hour. Avoid a large prepayment for future instruction. Flight schools DO go out of business and you would probably lose your money. It is also not uncommon for people to take a few lessons and then decide that flying is really not what they want to do. You may not be able to get your prepayment back.
If you decide to buy an airplane, it is now a buyer's market. The economy has depressed used aircraft prices. You want to do a title search on the aircraft you intend to buy. Have a trusted mechanic do a pre purchase inspection. Do a title search. Investigate costs for insurance, storage, annual inspections, routine maintenance. In case I forgot to mention it, I don't care if you are buying an aircraft from your mother, do a title search.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 5:54:30 PM EST
Back in the early 90's I purchased a Piper Warrior shortly after starting lessons. At that time, I purchased it for about $20K.

I did a lease back with the flight school and I found myself flying less because when I flew it the plane didn't make money, it cost me money. I wanted others to fly the thing so I could pay the bills. It was more of a distraction than it was a money saver. From my personal experience, I would recommend renting. When the hour meter stops, so does your expenses. Owning that plane was a never ending drain on my finances.

Now if you have that much excess cash on hand, then by all means, buy yourself a plane. But I would still wait until I had my ratings and a little time. Just my opinion.

As for the plane, if I had to purchase a plane for instruction today, it would be a 172.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:04:01 PM EST
I will also mention this to you. I went to Hawaii with my wife for an anniversary. She booked this aerial tour in a trike. When we got to the airport, I was VERY skeptical. After an hour flight, I wanted to buy one. It was an absolute blast. Some of the most fun flying I've done. They're like motorcycles for the air. Very cheap (when bought used) to buy and operate... and, they fold up to fit on a small trailer. They can have floats, too.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:10:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By valheru21:
I will also mention this to you. I went to Hawaii with my wife for an anniversary. She booked this aerial tour in a trike. When we got to the airport, I was VERY skeptical. After an hour flight, I wanted to buy one. It was an absolute blast. Some of the most fun flying I've done. They're like motorcycles for the air. Very cheap (when bought used) to buy and operate... and, they fold up to fit on a small trailer. They can have floats, too.

And they're 103 legal IF you get a single-seater...

For those who don't know, a 'Trike' is essentially a hang glider wing attached to a prop-driven go-kart

The simplest possible form of ultralight...
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:22:01 PM EST

interesting thread ...

Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:30:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:31:00 PM EST
Learn first; buy later. It would be silly to buy and start paying costs on a training plane that you do not own. Annuals, insurance, tie-down, etc., have the flight school eat these costs. Once you have your license and have some time in different types you'll have a much better idea of what you can afford and what you want.

Me, I'd find a nice, well maintained and hangared Cessna TU206. It will have the legs and hauling capacity you will need later when you are flying for business and pleasure. Better speed and comfort than a 172 or 182 and the utility configuration is nice for loading large bags should you decide to take it skiing, hunting, etc (roughly 1,000 lbs for a 1,000 miles, try that in a 172/182). Look for a three bladed Hartwell.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:37:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By kmrtnsn:
Learn first; buy later. It would be silly to buy and start paying costs on a training plane that you do not own. Annuals, insurance, tie-down, etc., have the flight school eat these costs. Once you have your license and have some time in different types you'll have a much better idea of what you can afford and what you want.

Me, I'd find a nice, well maintained and hangared Cessna TU206. It will have the legs and hauling capacity you will need later when you are flying for business and pleasure. Better speed and comfort than a 172 or 182 and the utility configuration is nice for loading large bags should you decide to take it skiing, hunting, etc (roughly 1,000 lbs for a 1,000 miles, try that in a 172/182). Look for a three bladed Hartwell.


Sierra down in Uvalde has an STC for 50+ gallons more fuel in wing tanks.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:39:08 PM EST
My grandfather had a 310 no clue what it cost though


so yeah this is pretty much a bump
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 3:17:03 AM EST
Originally Posted By thatjonguy:
Icon A5

About $130,000 new and production should start in 2011.

I have my sights set on one later in life.

Edit: They are not like a Cessna, they have fold up wings and are considered a light-sport aircraft. And they can land on pavement or WATER. Win!


HOLY SHIT THAT IS ONE SEXY AIRPLANE!
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 3:33:15 AM EST
2 pages and let me be the first to say dibs on guns and ammo and hot ex girlfriends
Link Posted: 12/25/2009 2:33:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2009 3:00:25 PM EST by eric496]
Originally Posted By The_Alchemist:
Cessna 162 SkyCatcher



They are being made in China and branded with Cessna's name. The first two prototypes crashed.

My first plane was a 38 year old Cessna 150. I'd be very surprised to see 30 year old Skycatchers flying in the future.

OP: I don't know how big you are. But if you're about the same size as me (about 160lbs), I'd recommend training and putting 100 hours or so in a small plane like a 150/152. Then move up to a bigger plane.

The larger planes are much more stable. My old 150 handled like a dream, but demanded full attention during the maneuvers. If you can perform a power-on stall in that, and you will to get your license, you're ready for anything. And I've performed them in a T-6 as well. The 172 I now own a fraction of is incredibly stable by comparison. I think it is better to learn in a plane that doesn't almost fly by itself.

Good luck!

ETA:

One important thing to remember: DO NOT buy an airplane without having a pre-purchase inspection performed by a mechanic who does not work for the seller. It is best if it is done at a different airport by a mechanic who has never worked on the plane before.
Link Posted: 12/25/2009 3:09:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:
My grandfather had a 310 no clue what it cost though


so yeah this is pretty much a bump


310 is one of cessna's nicest planes. Little out of the price range, and a good cross country plane but not really for learning.

Best bet IMO, is an older 182, fixed gear, etc. with cont. 0-470. Drinks the mogas nicely, easy to fly, forgiving, not to thirsty (relatively), and a good x-country plane. Parts are cheap too.
Link Posted: 12/25/2009 3:23:27 PM EST
El Paso Int'l had a Convair 990 for sale,less than $100k,it's not too big,and it'll do 200-300 miles rather nicely.
Link Posted: 12/25/2009 4:14:01 PM EST
I don't have a pilot's liscense, but I always figured if I was gonna buy a plane I would look for a Piper Cub.
Link Posted: 12/25/2009 4:26:05 PM EST
Get this for it

http://www.airsoftarms.com/Echo-1-Minigun-Airsoft-Electric-Gun––-Long-Version

Link Posted: 12/25/2009 4:28:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By SuperSixOne:
http://www.aopa.org

ARFCOM isn't too good at such questions

what do planes have to do with Alpacas?
Link Posted: 12/25/2009 6:59:33 PM EST
[size=6reliable][/size=6]

That is the most important part..
Link Posted: 12/25/2009 7:19:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2009 7:22:52 PM EST by elkmontarms]
Just rent for a while until you get you license. The GA market is a disaster and prices are still falling. I feel there is still a long way to go before we hit bottom. There are so many folks trying to sell their airplanes right now it is unreal, the market is flooded with good used GA aircraft and more are coming up for sale every day.

I wish I had the right answers for you, the sad fact is GA in the USA is dying a slow death. I love avaiation and I make my living in the business, it hurts me to say that GA is on the way out. FBO's are going out of business, fuel is still expensive and OEM replacement parts for many older aircraft are becoming near impossible to get. It's like the perfect storm of problems that are killing the industry.

I wish I had a better outlook for the future for GA, this is just my 2 cents.
Link Posted: 12/25/2009 7:52:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2009 8:01:40 PM EST by Gibsonn]
One thing that really hasn't been mentioned too much here is maintenance. Buying a airplane is easy. The expensive part is the upkeep. They are not like cars where you can do all the work yourself whenever something breaks. The FAA regulates all maintenance done to these aircraft. Every 50 hours on the meter there is a scheduled maintenance that has to be done. Every 100 hours there is maintenance that has to be done. All this has to be logged and kept with the aircraft. All maintenance has to be done buy a A&P mechanic. You think car mechanics charge a lot per hour, wait to you get a quote from a A&P. Parts on a plane are incredibly expensive. Take for instance the 172 people are talking about. Average 50 hour is about 300-500. 100 Hours are about 800-1200. Annuals can be up to 10k, each and every year of ownership. Now everything on that plans is only good for so many hours. The engine if I can remember right is only good for about 10-15k hours. So when you buy one look at the Hobbs meter and see how many hours on on the aircraft. When its time to replace the engine, expect about a 15k cost. If you ever owned a boat....double to triple the cost of upkeep and that's about what it would cost to own a plane.

My father is a A&P, with his inspectors license. Ive spent many hours helping him and around aircraft.

EDIT: sorry the TBO (TIme Before Overhaul) on a 172 is around 2000 hours. Depending on year and engine type and cost will range 15K-25k also depending on engine type.
Link Posted: 12/25/2009 8:48:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
What's the minimum you'd expect to spend on a decent plane with a max speed over 300 mph?

Hey, I'm allowed to dream...


300+? You are delving into the realm of turbine powered aircraft!
Link Posted: 12/25/2009 8:59:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2009 9:02:08 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By Gibsonn:
One thing that really hasn't been mentioned too much here is maintenance. Buying a airplane is easy. The expensive part is the upkeep. They are not like cars where you can do all the work yourself whenever something breaks. The FAA regulates all maintenance done to these aircraft. Every 50 hours on the meter there is a scheduled maintenance that has to be done. Every 100 hours there is maintenance that has to be done. All this has to be logged and kept with the aircraft. All maintenance has to be done buy a A&P mechanic. You think car mechanics charge a lot per hour, wait to you get a quote from a A&P. Parts on a plane are incredibly expensive. Take for instance the 172 people are talking about. Average 50 hour is about 300-500. 100 Hours are about 800-1200. Annuals can be up to 10k, each and every year of ownership. Now everything on that plans is only good for so many hours. The engine if I can remember right is only good for about 10-15k hours. So when you buy one look at the Hobbs meter and see how many hours on on the aircraft. When its time to replace the engine, expect about a 15k cost. If you ever owned a boat....double to triple the cost of upkeep and that's about what it would cost to own a plane.

My father is a A&P, with his inspectors license. Ive spent many hours helping him and around aircraft.

EDIT: sorry the TBO (TIme Before Overhaul) on a 172 is around 2000 hours. Depending on year and engine type and cost will range 15K-25k also depending on engine type.

100hr inspections are only required for commercial/flight-school use aircraft...

Personal birds only require annuals & scheduled overhauls.

Light Sports (and homebuilts built by the current owner) can be owner-maintained without an A&P.
Link Posted: 12/25/2009 9:13:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By thatjonguy:
Icon A5

About $130,000 new and production should start in 2011.

I have my sights set on one later in life.

Edit: They are not like a Cessna, they have fold up wings and are considered a light-sport aircraft. And they can land on pavement or WATER. Win!

Landing on water requires a separate rating (seaplane rating) from landing on land...

If you want folding wings, there are plenty of 'full private' Experimental models that offer this feature....


Icon's claim to fame on this one is the FAA seaplane rating does not apply since the aircraft is a LSA.
Link Posted: 12/25/2009 9:42:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By valheru21:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Personally, I'll be happy (for now) with a VNE of 170, if I can just get the time to finish the damn thing without other more pressing projects popping up...

Well, that and I have a Lyco (that's older than I am, by at least a decade) on an engine stand in my living room...


What kind of plane are you building again? It's not an RV is it?

What's wrong with RV's
Link Posted: 12/25/2009 9:45:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By dropbass:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By thatjonguy:
Icon A5

About $130,000 new and production should start in 2011.

I have my sights set on one later in life.

Edit: They are not like a Cessna, they have fold up wings and are considered a light-sport aircraft. And they can land on pavement or WATER. Win!

Landing on water requires a separate rating (seaplane rating) from landing on land...

If you want folding wings, there are plenty of 'full private' Experimental models that offer this feature....


Icon's claim to fame on this one is the FAA seaplane rating does not apply since the aircraft is a LSA.


And even if it didn't a PPL seaplane add on is only around $1000 and a day and a half of work.
Link Posted: 12/25/2009 9:47:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2009 9:47:43 PM EST by Tony-Ri]
Well kept, used 172.
Link Posted: 12/25/2009 9:48:30 PM EST
Buy a 172 if you want to fly something reliable, efficient, fairly comfortable, and boring as hell.
Link Posted: 12/25/2009 11:36:04 PM EST
I still harbor this insane dream of building a BD-5.

I took all my dual instruction in low wing Beechcraft. Flying out of Colorado Springs on a rainy summer afternoon - a turbo really helps.

Link Posted: 12/25/2009 11:43:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By ProfGAB101:
I still harbor this insane dream of building a BD-5.

I took all my dual instruction in low wing Beechcraft. Flying out of Colorado Springs on a rainy summer afternoon - a turbo really helps.



Building one isnt insane, flying it is.
Link Posted: 12/25/2009 11:50:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2009 11:50:44 PM EST by MiG-21]
Bah! Boring stuff so far. Try this! And it's under 100K.

http://www.raptoraviation.com/aircraft%20spec%20pages/Mig21UM.html
Link Posted: 12/26/2009 12:17:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
P.S. For the OP and the 300mph guy (I am not going to give flying advice to Mr SuperBug Driver - he allready knows) learning to fly in too fast of a plane (one with too high of a stall speed) makes learning to land harder...

Hell with that, man. Learn to land and stall in an F4U-1.

After that, either you'll be dead (in which case it won't matter), or literally everything will be easy in comparison.
Link Posted: 12/26/2009 6:52:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By Rumrunner358:
Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:
My grandfather had a 310 no clue what it cost though


so yeah this is pretty much a bump


310 is one of cessna's nicest planes. Little out of the price range, and a good cross country plane but not really for learning.

Best bet IMO, is an older 182, fixed gear, etc. with cont. 0-470. Drinks the mogas nicely, easy to fly, forgiving, not to thirsty (relatively), and a good x-country plane. Parts are cheap too.


Put VGs, Sportsman cuffs, wing extensions, and tip tanks on and you have a nice long range cruiser.
Link Posted: 12/26/2009 6:58:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/26/2009 7:12:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/26/2009 8:33:42 AM EST by Magoo6541]
It depends on what you plan on doing with the plane. I'd look for a nicer fractional ownership in a Diamond 40XLS or a Cirrus. If you plan on doing some serious traveling in your plane those 2 would suit your needs. If you plan on getting your ME, look into a nicer twin fractional ownership. Light twins can bite hard if you don't do your part. Single pilot IFR in a twin puts a lot on a pilot.

If you plan on just cruising the friendly skies on short hops and staying close to your base airport, look into an older but nicely equiped 172. I wouldn't get an 182 unless you'll really need the extra performance. And if you really do need the extra performance then, I'd rather have the fractional in a Diamond/Cirrus/Light Twin.

My $.02
Link Posted: 12/26/2009 11:14:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By AeroE:
Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
I think I'm going to pursue my lifelong dream next summer and get my pilot's license.

I'd like to buy an aircraft to learn on. Nothing too fancy, something reliable and nice, with maybe enough range to fly 200 or 300 miles comfortably.

What kind of planes am I looking at?


That's a question bettered answered over ice tea and a stroll around the airport.

A good place to start getting a sense of what airplanes cost is www.barnstormers.com. You should also get a subscription to Trade-A-Plane.




Man there are some nice planes on BarnStormers. Several twin engine jobbies and a really nice commanche.

Oh to be rich.
Link Posted: 12/26/2009 11:23:19 AM EST
Insurance will SUCK for you just learning.

Higher rates may end up being more than what a rental would cost.
Link Posted: 12/26/2009 11:27:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/26/2009 11:30:44 AM EST by EarlBypass]
You might want to see if you like flying and can pass the medical, first. Then, a Cessna 180 or a Super Cub!

http://www.aerotrader.com/

http://motors.shop.ebay.com/items/Aircraft__W0QQ_sacatZ63676
Link Posted: 12/26/2009 11:37:57 AM EST
you can get a nice Cessna 182 skylane RG for well under that and have a plane that can cruise relatively quickly and have some good comfort
Link Posted: 12/26/2009 11:52:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By retgarr:
Kit built is easily the best bang for the buck.



RV––Van's Aircraft FTW!

My dad built an RV6, cruised at 200 mph, he had to watch overruning the cessnas if they took off ahead of him. Liability lawsuits largely froze civilian factory AC development, the basic 172 is a 60s era plane at best.
Link Posted: 12/26/2009 11:54:22 AM EST
Get your license first so you can learn for yourself what you want/need and if you still want to own a plane.

Link Posted: 12/27/2009 3:04:11 PM EST
Are there any good WW2 warbirds that would be worth looking into?
Link Posted: 12/27/2009 3:21:25 PM EST
Get a G550. You'll probably have to get it used, and/or possibly crashed to get it in that price range though.
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