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Posted: 12/20/2009 9:45:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2009 9:47:48 AM EDT by five2one]


Chambering: 7.62x25mm TT (7.63 mm Mauser)
Type: Single action
Weight: 910 g
Length: 116 mm
Capacity: 8 rounds

vs.



Type: Single Action
Chamber: 7.62x25mm TT
Weight: 950 g
Length: 209mm
Barrel length: 120 mm
Capacity: 8 rounds


eta: 22/7 is almost as good as pie.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 9:53:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2009 10:18:06 AM EDT by whiskerz]
Poll fail

Where is the get both option ?

It is kind of like asking which ugly kid do you like more ?


ETA , I have both as well and voted cz-52
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 9:53:58 AM EDT
I have both, and find the CZ much more fun to shoot.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 9:55:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
I have both, and find the CZ much more fun to shoot.


Thank you. I had hoped someone who owned both would speak up. In what way is the CZ more fun?
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 9:56:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2009 9:59:20 AM EDT by Bob1984]
CZ52. Stronger action because the Czech loads were hotter. Also has a better safety arrangement than the Tokarev. Like all 7.62x25's, the pistol can be converted to 9mm with a barrel change. Just don't dry-fire it.
http://www.makarov.com/cz52/
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 9:57:33 AM EDT
I bought theCZ when given the option.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 10:04:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2009 10:29:50 AM EDT by RiffRandall]
Have both. Like both but I think I like the Tokarev a bit more as a shooter. I can easily see myself buying another Tokarev, not so much another Cz52.
The Cz is much more interesting from a mechanical & visual perspective. Roller locked + art deco styling = neato.
Has a real safety, not some POS glommed onto it for importation.

The Tokarev has a much better grip, the Cz feels like a brick in the hand compared to the Tokarev. Also like the Tokarev button mag release over the euro-style heel release on the Cz, same with the 1911 style external slide release. Trigger pull on the Tokarev is much better also.

<eta> Had to replace the factory recoil spring on the Cz with a Wolff 18.5# to make it easier to shoot. Stock spring = Tokarev still nicer re recoil.
Haven't had to drop the hammer twice on a round with the Tokarev, the full length firing pin really wacks the snot out of the primer. The Cz hammer fall seems downright wimpy in comparison & I've had several milsurp rounds that required a second strike, some that plain refused to fire.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 10:08:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By five2one:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
I have both, and find the CZ much more fun to shoot.


Thank you. I had hoped someone who owned both would speak up. In what way is the CZ more fun?


It is sturdier, being built to handle subgun ammo, and therefore the felt recoil is less while still being entertainingly brisk. The Tok just seems less comfortable and controllable, and as a side note, if you put hot ammo in it the cases will rupture as it is unlocking and create some interesting sensations on your hand.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 10:12:33 AM EDT
I own both

The best thing I did was replace the springs with WOLFF springs.

Less felt (percieved ? ) recoil seemed to group better.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 10:13:01 AM EDT
As another aside––-I can't stop the Tok from rusting––gotta clean that thing once a month, shot or not, to keep it in shape. No such issues with the CZ. (Though the Tok being Romanian combined with our wonderfully humid climate might be involved there.)
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 10:19:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2009 10:26:21 AM EDT by Clockwork138]
Better as far as...

Best pistol platform for the 7.62x25: Cz52. Built to handle hotter loads than the TT-33.
Ergonomics: TT-33. As stated above regarding the slide and magazine releases. Heel mag releases are the suck.
Aesthetics: Cz52, IMO.
Bonus: Cz52 for having a decocking safety.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 10:20:46 AM EDT
I own both

Does the fact that I have (4) cz52's mean anything?
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 10:35:43 AM EDT
I own both.


The TT has the JMB theory behind it, nice and smooth, hell my Wife shoots it well. The CZ has a crappy mag release, nightmare to strip and clean, and those rollers that only the Czech republic could enjoy.

I 0nly shoot the TT.


I will glady swap my 2 CZ's out to anyone who likes them over a TT. If you have a C&R we can ship direct. Lets save postage and ship two for two!

Link Posted: 12/20/2009 10:46:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2009 10:48:05 AM EDT by Dave_Markowitz]
The TT33 is a better pistol. I have both. The TT33 wins on:

1. Quality of manufacture. Frankly, the CZ52 is not all that well made in comparison. The CZ52's firing pins are poorly cast and prone to breakage if you dry fire. The decockers also frequently wear to the point where they'll fire the gun if used. Also IME, CZ52 magazines are cheaply made. I even had one blow the floorplate off while I was shooting it, just due to the pressure of the mag spring.

2. Design. The TT333 is basically a Browning desing, and has a modular action. You can remove the hammer, sear and disconnector in a pack, which also incorporates the feed lips. Having the feed lips machined as part of this rather than the mags enhances reliability.

3. Strength. Yes, I know this goes against conventional wisdom as stated previously in this thread. Over on THR, member Clark (who is an engineer) did testing to destruction with hot handloads of both the TT33 and CZ52. The CZ52 failed first. The barrel is the weak link as some parts are a bit thin.

The two things that would really improve the TT33 IMO would be (a) a decent safety and (b) a slightly more raked grip angle.

Edit: I also find that the CZ52 is prone to trigger slap.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 10:49:27 AM EDT
I say the TT33 is a better pistol...
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 10:51:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 1:22:56 PM EDT


Thank you one and all for your opinions. They have been very helpful.


Link Posted: 12/20/2009 1:26:15 PM EDT
Vz.52
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 1:28:01 PM EDT
They are also more rare as CZ only made 250,000 of them compared to the metric shitton that Russia/other made of the TT33.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 1:45:41 PM EDT
I own both and concur with Dave_Markowitz
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 2:51:13 PM EDT
TT-33(and clones) in every way.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 3:08:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_Markowitz:
The TT33 is a better pistol. I have both. The TT33 wins on:

1. Quality of manufacture. Frankly, the CZ52 is not all that well made in comparison. The CZ52's firing pins are poorly cast and prone to breakage if you dry fire. The decockers also frequently wear to the point where they'll fire the gun if used. Also IME, CZ52 magazines are cheaply made. I even had one blow the floorplate off while I was shooting it, just due to the pressure of the mag spring.

2. Design. The TT333 is basically a Browning desing, and has a modular action. You can remove the hammer, sear and disconnector in a pack, which also incorporates the feed lips. Having the feed lips machined as part of this rather than the mags enhances reliability.

3. Strength. Yes, I know this goes against conventional wisdom as stated previously in this thread. Over on THR, member Clark (who is an engineer) did testing to destruction with hot handloads of both the TT33 and CZ52. The CZ52 failed first. The barrel is the weak link as some parts are a bit thin.

The two things that would really improve the TT33 IMO would be (a) a decent safety and (b) a slightly more raked grip angle.

Edit: I also find that the CZ52 is prone to trigger slap.

+1 to this.

I had a CZ. Crazy thing shot 2 feet low at 15 yds. It's not that the CZ wasn't fun to shoot, you just couldn't hit anything with it. Tokarev all the way.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 4:10:00 PM EDT
if ya dont have a CZ52, buy one now they gettin scarce, then get a TT. fuck it get both!
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 4:14:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2009 4:15:34 PM EDT by Skillshot]
Originally Posted By Bob1984:
CZ52. Stronger action because the Czech loads were hotter Also has a better safety arrangement than the Tokarev. Like all 7.62x25's, the pistol can be converted to 9mm with a barrel change. Just don't dry-fire it.
http://www.makarov.com/cz52/


Wrong, wrong, wrong. The CZ has a thinner chamber at the rollers and is weaker than the TT33. Clarkmag proved this by blowing up several of them on gunboards.com.

I've owned both - even put 2200 rounds through a 52 one evening with a buddy, and the TT33 wins in all aspects except accuracy with match loads.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:03:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Skillshot:
Originally Posted By Bob1984:
CZ52. Stronger action because the Czech loads were hotter Also has a better safety arrangement than the Tokarev. Like all 7.62x25's, the pistol can be converted to 9mm with a barrel change. Just don't dry-fire it.
http://www.makarov.com/cz52/


Wrong, wrong, wrong. The CZ has a thinner chamber at the rollers and is weaker than the TT33. Clarkmag proved this by blowing up several of them on gunboards.com.

I've owned both - even put 2200 rounds through a 52 one evening with a buddy, and the TT33 wins in all aspects except accuracy with match loads.


Do you have a linky for that? That sounds like good reading.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:15:04 PM EDT
the Tokarev feels nicer in my hand, slimmer smaller grip, better ergonomics, reliable , trigger feels better

more compact

I also have a spare 9mm conversion barrel & bushing and mags with a steel spacer in the rear
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:16:30 PM EDT
TT-33, it can shoot the loads that the CZ can shoot.
Amazing en blanc drop in hammer/sear/action
1911 type ergonomics
durable, thin

CZs are good pistols though.
Link Posted: 12/20/2009 6:25:10 PM EDT
I've never handled a TT. I'm on my 2nd CZ though. I sold the first one 5 years ago because I rarely shot it, but I missed it so much that I had to buy another one.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 8:02:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By five2one:
Originally Posted By Skillshot:
Originally Posted By Bob1984:
CZ52. Stronger action because the Czech loads were hotter Also has a better safety arrangement than the Tokarev. Like all 7.62x25's, the pistol can be converted to 9mm with a barrel change. Just don't dry-fire it.
http://www.makarov.com/cz52/


Wrong, wrong, wrong. The CZ has a thinner chamber at the rollers and is weaker than the TT33. Clarkmag proved this by blowing up several of them on gunboards.com.

I've owned both - even put 2200 rounds through a 52 one evening with a buddy, and the TT33 wins in all aspects except accuracy with match loads.


Do you have a linky for that? That sounds like good reading.


I tried, but the search only goes back to 2007. This was around 2002, iirc. The guy's username is actually "Clark" currently, but was clarkmag back then. The archive also only goes back to 2007.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 9:55:53 AM EDT
I find the tt much more comfortable to shoot. I recently acquired another cz but after shooting it i had forgotton how not comfortable it was too shoot compared to the tt and sokd in favor of buying another tt.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 10:05:26 AM EDT
TT33.

Firing pins on the CZ52 break easy, mag changes suck, and the rollers look fragile. I do like shooting my CZ52s though.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 10:07:06 AM EDT
I own a CZ-52 and a Romy TT-33; out of the two, I prefer the CZ.* The only dislike I have is related to the sights. Both pistols are lacking in that department though. With that said, if you can find a Yugoslavian TT-33, get it. Much better quality than others short of actual Russian guns and IIRC the pistols were built including a manual safety rather than retrofit later on like the Romanians.

* You can't buy just one. Collect them all and enjoy them with cheap and plentiful ammo.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 2:27:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2009 2:29:33 PM EDT by Kristofer_G]
Originally Posted By Skillshot:
Originally Posted By five2one:
Originally Posted By Skillshot:
Originally Posted By Bob1984:
CZ52. Stronger action because the Czech loads were hotter Also has a better safety arrangement than the Tokarev. Like all 7.62x25's, the pistol can be converted to 9mm with a barrel change. Just don't dry-fire it.
http://www.makarov.com/cz52/


Wrong, wrong, wrong. The CZ has a thinner chamber at the rollers and is weaker than the TT33. Clarkmag proved this by blowing up several of them on gunboards.com.

I've owned both - even put 2200 rounds through a 52 one evening with a buddy, and the TT33 wins in all aspects except accuracy with match loads.


Do you have a linky for that? That sounds like good reading.


I tried, but the search only goes back to 2007. This was around 2002, iirc. The guy's username is actually "Clark" currently, but was clarkmag back then. The archive also only goes back to 2007.


Clark posts on many boards under the same name. I ran across him on accuratereloading.com. I am a bit surprised he is not here as well. He does, however, do things out side of what most consider to be reasonable and prudent, which would likely cause him to be chased away from arfcom in short order.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 2:35:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2009 2:35:58 PM EDT by Forest]
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 2:38:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kristofer_G:
Originally Posted By Skillshot:


Clark posts on many boards under the same name. I ran across him on accuratereloading.com. I am a bit surprised he is not here as well. He does, however, do things out side of what most consider to be reasonable and prudent, which would likely cause him to be chased away from arfcom in short order.

yeah, it was amusing to watch him get attacked on gunboards for endangering other people's lives and blowing up all those guns with his antics.

Oh, wait. He wasn't endangering anyone except himself.

Oh, wait. Actually we have no idea what precautions he took to protect himself. And he's still alive, which means he must have taken SOME precautions.

I guess it was sad seeing some of those guns go. Now there are only like 120,119 CZ52s instead of 120,224.

It really isn't against the CoC to dispose of your personally owned property either.

I guess people like to get worked up over nothing.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 2:49:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_Markowitz:
The TT33 is a better pistol. I have both. The TT33 wins on:

1. Quality of manufacture. Frankly, the CZ52 is not all that well made in comparison. The CZ52's firing pins are poorly cast and prone to breakage if you dry fire. The decockers also frequently wear to the point where they'll fire the gun if used. Also IME, CZ52 magazines are cheaply made. I even had one blow the floorplate off while I was shooting it, just due to the pressure of the mag spring.

2. Design. The TT333 is basically a Browning desing, and has a modular action. You can remove the hammer, sear and disconnector in a pack, which also incorporates the feed lips. Having the feed lips machined as part of this rather than the mags enhances reliability.

3. Strength. Yes, I know this goes against conventional wisdom as stated previously in this thread. Over on THR, member Clark (who is an engineer) did testing to destruction with hot handloads of both the TT33 and CZ52. The CZ52 failed first. The barrel is the weak link as some parts are a bit thin.

The two things that would really improve the TT33 IMO would be (a) a decent safety and (b) a slightly more raked grip angle.

Edit: I also find that the CZ52 is prone to trigger slap.


Excellent insights.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 2:54:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_Markowitz:
The TT33 is a better pistol. I have both. The TT33 wins on:

1. Quality of manufacture. Frankly, the CZ52 is not all that well made in comparison. The CZ52's firing pins are poorly cast and prone to breakage if you dry fire. The decockers also frequently wear to the point where they'll fire the gun if used. Also IME, CZ52 magazines are cheaply made. I even had one blow the floorplate off while I was shooting it, just due to the pressure of the mag spring.

2. Design. The TT333 is basically a Browning desing, and has a modular action. You can remove the hammer, sear and disconnector in a pack, which also incorporates the feed lips. Having the feed lips machined as part of this rather than the mags enhances reliability.

3. Strength. Yes, I know this goes against conventional wisdom as stated previously in this thread. Over on THR, member Clark (who is an engineer) did testing to destruction with hot handloads of both the TT33 and CZ52. The CZ52 failed first. The barrel is the weak link as some parts are a bit thin.

The two things that would really improve the TT33 IMO would be (a) a decent safety and (b) a slightly more raked grip angle.

Edit: I also find that the CZ52 is prone to trigger slap.


Link Posted: 12/21/2009 2:55:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Morning_Wood:

Originally Posted By Dave_Markowitz:
The TT33 is a better pistol. I have both. The TT33 wins on:

1. Quality of manufacture. Frankly, the CZ52 is not all that well made in comparison. The CZ52's firing pins are poorly cast and prone to breakage if you dry fire. The decockers also frequently wear to the point where they'll fire the gun if used. Also IME, CZ52 magazines are cheaply made. I even had one blow the floorplate off while I was shooting it, just due to the pressure of the mag spring.

2. Design. The TT333 is basically a Browning desing, and has a modular action. You can remove the hammer, sear and disconnector in a pack, which also incorporates the feed lips. Having the feed lips machined as part of this rather than the mags enhances reliability.

3. Strength. Yes, I know this goes against conventional wisdom as stated previously in this thread. Over on THR, member Clark (who is an engineer) did testing to destruction with hot handloads of both the TT33 and CZ52. The CZ52 failed first. The barrel is the weak link as some parts are a bit thin.

The two things that would really improve the TT33 IMO would be (a) a decent safety and (b) a slightly more raked grip angle.

Edit: I also find that the CZ52 is prone to trigger slap.

+1 to this.

I had a CZ. Crazy thing shot 2 feet low at 15 yds. It's not that the CZ wasn't fun to shoot, you just couldn't hit anything with it. Tokarev all the way.


+1 Some damn good points...this man knows what he is talking about!
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 3:02:48 PM EDT
Will you guys PLEASE cheerlead the CZ=52's until I can find someone to trade mine away to!


Link Posted: 12/21/2009 3:04:47 PM EDT
Clarkmag...
I haven't seen that name for years. Wished I didn't see it today.
So, has anyone ever duplicated his "research" and came up with the same results?
I started ignoring him back in 2002 and haven't kept up with any of his crap since.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 4:10:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest:
[
Start here, Clark has more links in his post.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-22071.html



Thank you. That Clark guy received a lot of grief for doing some DIY testing.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 4:56:24 PM EDT
I like my TT-33 way more than I expected I would.

I intend to get a CZ52, its a very different pistol and I like different.

I'm in the Get Both camp on this one.

Link Posted: 12/21/2009 5:03:09 PM EDT
FWIW, I own both. The Tokarev would be a much better pistol if the grip was a bit longer and at a better angle, more like a 1911.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 5:14:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ScrinMaster:
FWIW, I own both. The Tokarev would be a much better pistol if the grip was a bit longer and at a better angle, more like a 1911.


Maybe something like this?
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 5:15:45 PM EDT
I have one CZ52 and 3 Romanian TT-33s.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 5:19:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kristofer_G:
Originally Posted By ScrinMaster:
FWIW, I own both. The Tokarev would be a much better pistol if the grip was a bit longer and at a better angle, more like a 1911.


Maybe something like this?

I.
Fucking.
Hate you.

Link Posted: 12/21/2009 6:09:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ScrinMaster:
FWIW, I own both. The Tokarev would be a much better pistol if the grip was a bit longer and at a better angle, more like a 1911.

Yugoslavian M-57 (TT33) are longer in the grip to accommodate a 9th round in the magazine, though the angle remains the same. The safety is better and easier to engage. Just an all-around great pistol. The Yugo TT-33 is my favorite of the 7.62x25mm pistols. My buddy has the one I passed up and likes to rub it in like he's some kind of diabolical fucking genius because he was quicker swiping his credit card.
Link Posted: 12/21/2009 6:21:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kristofer_G:
Originally Posted By ScrinMaster:
FWIW, I own both. The Tokarev would be a much better pistol if the grip was a bit longer and at a better angle, more like a 1911.


Maybe something like this?


That is awesome. I really wish I had the ability and equipment to do something like that.

Originally Posted By thirsty:

Originally Posted By ScrinMaster:
FWIW, I own both. The Tokarev would be a much better pistol if the grip was a bit longer and at a better angle, more like a 1911.

Yugoslavian M-57 (TT33) are longer in the grip to accommodate a 9th round in the magazine, though the angle remains the same. The safety is better and easier to engage. Just an all-around great pistol. The Yugo TT-33 is my favorite of the 7.62x25mm pistols. My buddy has the one I passed up and likes to rub it in like he's some kind of diabolical fucking genius because he was quicker swiping his credit card.

That does look much better. If the choice was between an M57 and a CZ-52, the Tokarev wins hands down.
Link Posted: 12/22/2009 10:06:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GaryM:
Clarkmag...
I haven't seen that name for years. Wished I didn't see it today.
So, has anyone ever duplicated his "research" and came up with the same results?
I started ignoring him back in 2002 and haven't kept up with any of his crap since.


+1
At least when gunkid spammed discussion sites it was somewhat amusing (tactical wheelbarrow! debarked attack chihuahuas!), clarkmag spamming every single damn gun site on the internet with his pedantic droning "..Cz52s are bad, definitely very bad...I'm an excellent driver...ten minutes to Wapner!" just rubs people the wrong way.

Link Posted: 12/22/2009 10:19:05 AM EDT
I own a TT33.

I was going to get a CZ52, and at the time just about everyone was saying how much better the CZ52 was over the crappy TT33.

Then I started reading about people breaking firing pins on the CZ52's. One guy broke his the very first time he dry fired it.

Then I heard how the roller were too soft and were deforming, so it was recommended to replace them.

Then I read many many people say how the decocker on their 52 acted as a secondary way to fire the pistol.

Then I started seeing pictures of broken CZ52 slides on the gun forums.

So I purchased a TT33.
Link Posted: 12/22/2009 10:28:10 AM EDT
i like my romaian tok. haven't shot a cz52 though. just need a polish tok with the scalloped slide serrations...
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