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HoodyHoo21
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Posted: 11/13/2009 4:21:11 PM
Originally Posted By coltaceguy:
Well, is someone an "Engineer" without an Engineering degree?


Some of the higher ups at work, retitled themselves, "Engineers" most don't even fucking have associate degrees let alone Engineering degrees...



The Chief Chemist here doesnt have a degree and neither does our Electrical Engineer.

Seemed weird to me too, but it was explained to me that that is how it is in industry.
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hdbint
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Posted: 11/13/2009 4:23:29 PM
I like to call my copy clerk a "Reproduction Engineer".

She has a highschool diploma.
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Posted: 11/13/2009 4:54:31 PM
Originally Posted By fingas:
as an engineer i must say that yes there are some engineers who are clueless in real world applications of solutions but there are far more who are extremely competent and can apply the knowledge they gained in college to design innovative solutions to problems using techniques/theories that some of those who worked their way into an engineering position may not have been exposed to. In this debate I hear the proponents of working one's way into an engineering degree berate the clueless engineers but i don't hear them even giving a hand wave to the millions of clueless technicians that can't even solve the simplest of problems without direct supervision so forgive me if I don't automatically assume that one who works in the field knows more than the guy out of college. Yes a person can be an amazing problem solver and work their way to doing what engineers do and they should be recognized for that accomplishment but also it is important to realize that engineering school isn't like getting a liberal arts degree, to pass in any engineering curriculum that i have seen one must have problem solving skills and that is what the degree is meant to demonstrate and the reason why a person straight out of school can be considered for the job when a person with a years field experience isn't. While a person who works the job for 20 years is fully capable of creating a solution to a problem the engineer with the degree is likely to understand the whys and not just the hows. I have a really good relationship with the technicians who implement my ideas and as such we accomplish much more than some of the other groups where the technicians think the engineer is an idiot because his new design had flaws and instead of working through it with him they simply use it as ammo to belitle engineers in general. What is interesting is that the guys who worked their way to fill an engineers slot most likely made the same mistakes along the way but if an engineer does it even once the techs will tear them apart instead of helping. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. My experience has been that the engineer with a college degree is much more likely to try an entirely new design to solve a problem which has many opportunities for things to not go 100% while many of those who worked their way into an engineering slot will opt for simple upgrades to a system that sometimes are as dated as the original system itself which is a safer but not necessarily better approach.


+1

As with any discipline, there are a few rotten apples in engineering. For some reason - entirely unbeknown to me - ar15.com has a very blue collar anger towards professionals. People here espouse "freedom" and "pro-capitalism" but when a person actually does well the masses love to rail against their hard work. Some times, in threads like these, I am reminded of the public's attitude in Atlas Shrugged.

A person puts forth 4+ years and tens of thousands of dollars towards a degree (and for engineers it's one of the hardest), yet everyone attacks them when they make mistakes. Success comes from failure. But the angry high school graduate will berate the college graduate incessantly because we aren't allowed to make mistakes. Well, if you know better why don't you take the same risks we took. "He who dares, wins."

I don't mean any hard feelings towards those without a college degree. Some people never got the chance, or perhaps they heard the call to arms. College degrees are not tickets to success, nor are they necessary. Some degrees *cough* liberal arts *cough* are definitely easier than others. But don't blindly attack degree holders like some pissed-off Bolshevik.
Wyzardd
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Posted: 11/13/2009 5:49:40 PM
Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:It really depends on the field of engineering you're in. Civil? PE is an absolute necessity.

Chemical, Aerospace? not so much

Others are somewhere in between.

Software? Not at all.
My degree is in environmental science and, even if I felt any desire to take and pass the test, I still wouldn't be an Environmental Engineer. However, without a degree or a test, 14 years experience and multiple non-PE certifications make me totally unashamed of the word "engineer" tacked on. The hardware department contains plenty of Electrical Engineers, I believe, but perhaps half of my department has a degree in any way related to their jobs. The percentage is going up because it's cheaper to hire a kid fresh out of college than it is to find someone with working experience in fibre channel, but even those kids aren't asked to be PE's.
And this is not new. In this arena the word "engineer" has been synonymous with "salaried" for as long as I've been in it. My father worked as an aerospace engineer long before Martin Marietta paid for him to finish his degree and become PE'd and the Viking landers didn't seem to suffer.

Hourly = "technician", in case you were curious.
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Posted: 11/13/2009 8:20:38 PM
Originally Posted By Wyzardd:
Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:It really depends on the field of engineering you're in. Civil? PE is an absolute necessity.

Chemical, Aerospace? not so much

Others are somewhere in between.

Software? Not at all.
My degree is in environmental science and, even if I felt any desire to take and pass the test, I still wouldn't be an Environmental Engineer. However, without a degree or a test, 14 years experience and multiple non-PE certifications make me totally unashamed of the word "engineer" tacked on. The hardware department contains plenty of Electrical Engineers, I believe, but perhaps half of my department has a degree in any way related to their jobs. The percentage is going up because it's cheaper to hire a kid fresh out of college than it is to find someone with working experience in fibre channel, but even those kids aren't asked to be PE's.
And this is not new. In this arena the word "engineer" has been synonymous with "salaried" for as long as I've been in it. My father worked as an aerospace engineer long before Martin Marietta paid for him to finish his degree and become PE'd and the Viking landers didn't seem to suffer.

Hourly = "technician", in case you were curious.


There is no such thing as a PE in software engineering.

The Nationa Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surverying has the following exams for PE certification:

•PE Agricultural(NEW)
•PE Architectural (NEW)
•PE Chemical
•PE Civil
•PE Control Systems
•PE Electrical and Computer
•PE Environmental
•PE Fire Protection
•PE Industrial
•PE Mechanical
•PE Metallurgical and Materials
•PE Mining and Mineral Processing
•PE Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering
•PE Nuclear
•PE Petroleum
•PE Structural I
•PE Structural II
•PS (Surveying)


With 12 years of experience, you are eligible to take the FE and PE exam. Wouldn't be a bad idea if you're willing to put in some time to study, it should help make you more marketable in case you ever find yourself looking for a new job.

Good point about salaried engineer vs hourly technician, I wonder if a lot of the semantics has to do with companies not wanting to pay overtime to some positions which may have historically been considered hourly.
Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you. -Pericles, 430 BC

Once we suffered from crimes, now we suffer from laws. -Tacitus, 76 AD
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Posted: 11/13/2009 8:32:00 PM
Many people work in the engineering field without engineering degrees. Experience counts as well. May not relate directly to your situation however.
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Posted: 11/13/2009 8:38:21 PM
I wouldn't even consider them an engineer WITH a degree, if they didn't have their PE license.
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Posted: 11/13/2009 9:01:27 PM
Originally Posted By JacksSmirkingRevenge:
LOL!

According to many people on this website, and in particular this thread, everyone with an actual degree in engineering is an incompetant, drooling, mouth-breathing retard while everyone without a degree in engineering is absolutely brilliant and "best in the industry". So its OK if they label themselves an engineer without "jumping through hoops and taking tests"...

Let me ask what the general consensus is about people who falsely claim to be military/SEALs/SF, etc. On this website, they are unanimously branded as wannabes and scumbags and are ridiculed to no end. Why? They are just claiming to be something they are not without jumping through all the hoops and taking all the tests. What is so different?

(I am a senior in ME and I do not approve of anyone claiming to be something they are not - military or otherwise - for any kind of personal gain without having truly earned it.)

The logic on this website is truly baffling at times.





Let me clear something up for you. An engineering degree does not make an engineer. You may
be a good candidate for the job. But, until you find employment in the job you are just another
swinging dick with a peice of paper. The people working as Mechanical Engineers may or may
not have ME degrees.

ffsparky26
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Posted: 11/13/2009 9:12:58 PM
Originally Posted By sc_beerbarge:
I tried having them change my title to Ninjaneer on my business card. They wouldn't go for it.


Well my title is scientific associate because they can't my manager won't call me an engineer without an engineering degree.

I don't do science, I do engineering. I would be happy with engineering associate but no dice.

I am going to have head cat herder put down as my title on my business cards.

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ffsparky26
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Posted: 11/13/2009 9:17:38 PM
Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
Originally Posted By jbombelli:

Originally Posted By kjensen_co:
Originally Posted By jbombelli:
I think, in order to call yourself an "engineer" you should be required to pass the PE exam, and be licensed. That's the Practice of Engineering Exam, for those of you who might not be aware of its existence.

Use of the title without the license should be punishable.


It doesn't matter to me about the degree, as long as you pass the licensing exam, which if I recall requires 4 years of experience.




I have never taken the exam, nor am I an "engineer."


Why?

PE licensure means very little in the whole field of engineering.

I've been in the engineering field more than 10 years worked in aerospace nearly that whole time except when I taught at a university. I have worked with one engineer in those 10 years who had a PE.

Why do you want to get the government more involved in your life and in how business is conducted?

I think it's absurd that PE licensed person is required to sign off electrical work I want to do on a home even if I've designed the equipment that I'm hooking up. This licensing requirement does not increase the quality of the work nor does it reduce the risk to the servicee or the state.

That's what everybody says who isn't a PE.




It really depends on the field of engineering you're in. Civil? PE is an absolute necessity.

Chemical, Aerospace? not so much

Others are somewhere in between.


+1

An EE doing power distribution and generation needs the PE. An EE doing embedded software probably does not.
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basketcase
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Posted: 11/13/2009 9:29:13 PM
[Last Edit: 11/13/2009 11:55:08 PM by basketcase]
Originally Posted By coltaceguy:
Well, is someone an "Engineer" without an Engineering degree?


Some of the higher ups at work, retitled themselves, "Engineers" most don't even fucking have associate degrees let alone Engineering degrees...



Does he do a good job? Knows what he is talking about? Its the guys who got their hands dirty to get where they are that have a clue , don't like the "looks good on paper" guys. What field do you work in?
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Posted: 11/13/2009 10:58:06 PM
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
An EE doing embedded software probably does not [need a PE].

And probably has no way of ever getting the cartel to grant him one. I did embedded software for years, and I've never met a PE in the field. I asked the former owner of an handheld software company my employer just bought, and he said that in the over twenty years he's been in the field he's never met one. If you can't find a PE in your field to work for, you simply can't get a PE. Besides, all of the PE's I've known had a strong hatred for everything electronic.z
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flyboy1910
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Posted: 11/13/2009 11:16:23 PM
[Last Edit: 11/13/2009 11:18:20 PM by flyboy1910]
Does it matter anyway? A piece of paper?
Most of us "wrench turners" spend most of our day trying to make Engineer's with masters degrees abortive designs actually work. Sometimes I think these clowns design new shit (that only looks good on a draft sheet) just to justify their place on the payroll.
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Posted: 11/13/2009 11:44:29 PM
One of the best engineers I've worked with had a degree in...economics. Ok, so maybe he wasn't reallly the "best", but considering his background and great work ethic, he earned my admiration rather quickly.

Of all the other engineers I've worked with, only two or three had their PE, and I cannot recall them ever having to cerify something as a PE. The benefits of having your PE certification vary from industry to industry. PEs are nearly obligatory for CEs, but how many "rocket scientists" have a PE?
allenNH
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Posted: 11/13/2009 11:54:22 PM
My business cards say "Senior Software Engineer." I don't care what the pencil pushing eggheads think of people in my field or any other who use the word.
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Keith_J
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Posted: 11/14/2009 12:08:14 AM
If you didn't graduate with an ABET accredited degree in engineering, there is no way you are an engineer. You may serve in a position that is titled "engineer" but you can never be.

Even if you graduated with an ABET accredited degree in engineering, you cannot be an "engineer in training" unless you also have passed the Fundamentals of Engineering exam.

Demonstrate sufficient experience and document it and you can earn a seat to take the Professional Engineering Exam. Pass that and you ARE and engineer. This will follow you everywhere and in most states, you must renew your license yearly as well as maintain competency.

Only THEN are you an Engineer. A title similar to a Medical Doctor, Dentist, Certified Public Accountant or Lawyer in that it is LICENSED profession.

Your employer may call you an engineer as he wants you to feel special but HE is covering your ass. A licensed engineer CAN be held LIABLE for any design/document they affix their seal to. FOREVER.
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Posted: 11/14/2009 12:36:38 AM
Originally Posted By Tannim:
Originally Posted By Tony-Ri:
Just earning an engineering degree will not allow you to say you're a Professional Engineer.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_over_the_term_Engineer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_engineer#United_States
The licensing procedure varies but the general process is:[url=http://www.ar15.com/#cite_note-3][4][/url]
  1. Graduate with a degree from an accredited four-year university program in engineering.
  2. Complete a standard Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) written examination, which tests applicants on breadth of understanding of basic engineering principles, and optionally some elements of an engineering specialty. Completion of the first two steps typically qualifies for certification in the U.S. as an Engineer-In-Training (EIT), sometimes also called an Engineer Intern (EI).[url=http://www.ar15.com/#cite_note-4][5][/url]
  3. Accumulate a certain amount of engineering experience typically under the supervision of a P.E. In most states the requirement is four years, but in others the requirement is lower.
  4. Complete a written Principles and Practice in Engineering ('PE') examination, testing the applicant's knowledge and skills in a chosen engineering discipline (mechanical, electrical, civil, for example), as well as engineering ethics.




PE is just unionized bullshit. The fact you have to apprentice under someone for 4 years to take it is bullshit.


Care to explain how the PE has anything to do with labor contracts/collective bargaining?

Brian

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Posted: 11/14/2009 12:44:17 AM
Originally Posted By 40xb-shooter:
my father was trained on the job for an electrical engineering job Illinois bell/At&t/Lucent Tech. He dropped out of high school after his junior year. No diploma no degrees and he did the job for 25 years give or take.


What exactly did he do? Design circuits/systems, assemble/test what others designed or something else?

There is a broad range of skills associated with 'engineer' - regardless of the particular field (mech, elec, civil, chem, etc)

Brian

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Posted: 11/14/2009 12:55:04 AM
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Originally Posted By Lexington:
Originally Posted By K5JMP:
Originally Posted By Lexington:
Originally Posted By swingset:
Does a degree always guarantee competency, or the lack of one always guarantee ineptitude?


The discussion is not about competency. It is about credentials.


creds are worthless if you are known industry-wide as being incompetent... work reputation far exceeds paper in real world worth.


Of course, but the discussion began about whether a person without an engineering degree can be called an engineer, Without the degree, the answer is "no".
The exception might be a certain amount of experience. Degrees can be accepted in lieu of experience, but experience cannot be accepted in lieu of a degree. Look at job postings that say something like, "Must have a bachelor's degree and 10 years of experience, or a master's degree and 7 years of experience." It is recognized by industry (an industry full of managers with engineering degrees) that the classroom accelerates learning and makes for the basis of a more complete professional. Tech bench jockeys often lack the theoretical training that would make them exceptional engineers.

Lastly, from the political side, if I am an engineering manager and you want to play in my sandbox and call yourself my equal, then you have to have played the game and paid your dues, because I have a building full of guys who ran the gauntlet through school. That's how the club works.


And attitudes like yours and you fellow engineers are why engineering is dying in the USA. If you think you need a degree to be in the "club" and do the job you are no better than a union creep who forces companies to hire people who went through an apprenticeship.

Engineering is expected to show below average growth, you are contributing to it. Companies need to hire on ability, not a training program.



There are very few people that can self-educate on the math involved in higher level dynamic calculations - think control systems, fluid mechanics, heat transfer, vibrations, etc. Care to explain where companies are going to find these 'engineers' w/o degrees that have the requisite skills and ability?

Brian

SlipShot762
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Posted: 11/14/2009 12:57:39 AM
How in the hell can someone call themselves an Engineer without the degree..


like this...."I am an engineer!"

see, that wasn't so hard, now was it?

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Posted: 11/14/2009 12:58:20 AM
Originally Posted By Commander_Adama:

That's not just an imperfect analogy, that's idiotic.
And nowhere do I say that someone who doesn't go to school will always be a better *whatever". I do say that real-world experience is far more valuable, and school is totally unnecessary if a person is intelligent and motivated. If I spent the 25k per year I paid in fees & tuition every year independently on books and materials of my own choosing, I guarantee I'd feel like I got my money's worth and know a hell of a lot more than I learned in school.

My dad didn't need the "sheepskin". Neither did most Engineers from his era. Real Engineers.(And going a little further back- nor did Thomas Edison. ) The Bell System was well known for training it's employees to whatever level they could handle and desired. (And paid them while they were being trained.) Lucent still does this.

I wonder if those training classes were similar to the engineering classes someone with a degree might have had....

I didn't need mine either, but there are too many idiots (ahem) that require them now for any job to not get one. I have a Bachelor's in CS and CIS, (Never mind that I literally grew up with computers and learned very little in school.) But I'm a self-taught watchmaker now. I suppose that you could call me a micro-mechanical engineer. (Nobody in my profession cares if or where you went to school, only if you can do the job well. All you have to do to be on the same level as the guys who went to school is take a test, the CW21. It's a demonstration of competence. )


Brian

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Posted: 11/14/2009 1:05:24 AM
Originally Posted By Commander_Adama:
Originally Posted By 1Bigdog:

Originally Posted By Commander_Adama:
Originally Posted By Lexington:
Commander_Adama, you and your father have my respect. Really. I'm not as dense as I may appear.

What I am arguing is the notion that somehow the guys with degrees don't get out and gain the same experiences that the non-degreed guys get. This argument always spirals into Experience vs. Degree, as if a guy with a degree somehow stagnates in time and never gains any useful experience and real world learning, while the non-degreed guy is having all these rich experiences and is becoming a Renaissance man.


Sorry if I flew off the handle a bit there. It's just that a degree something that I KNOW is not required to produce a competent and even exceptional *whatever*, from experience. I apologize for being so acerbic in my replies. I see where you are coming from, and I think you see where I'm coming from.

I think we'd have a much stronger, smarter workforce if the emphasis was put on testing for competence when hiring, rather than looking for a degree. If you have one, good for you. If you don't have one, big deal. It's what you can actually DO that matters.

If I watch someone performing a specific brain surgery a hundred times......I could probably do it.

Don't ask me to perform a different type of brain surgery however.


OK. That's a very nice thing to know about you. Since we are getting personal here, I like to modify old BMW motorcycles into period streetable (cafe, sort of) racers. I don't know a whole lot about other motorcycle engines besides the BMW boxer.

What relevance does your post have to the discussion? If testing is done when hiring, the test can be written in such a way as to assess critical thinking, problem solving ability, understanding of theory, ability to apply knowledge, etc. You can weed out the incompetent, regardless of what paper they hold or don't hold.

So, what exactly is your point?


Isn't the degree from an accredited engineering school already a hiring test? Why would companies want to spend the time/money to conduct open interviews/testing when it's already been done to a fairly reliable degree (no pun intended)?

Brian

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Posted: 11/14/2009 1:15:47 AM
Originally Posted By thebomber:
Originally Posted By tesla120:

Originally Posted By coltaceguy:
Originally Posted By larkinmusic:
Maybe they have model trains at home?


hell I guess so


but SRSLY?

how in the hell


Don't you guys consider "Engineers" such as "DOCTORS" requiring degree to be called as such..

No, I don't...

also I'm an Audio Engineer, and I don't have a degree.

a degree is just backing from an accredited institution saying that you know how to jump through hoops and take tests.


Spoken like someone who is an "engineer" without a degree. I get these types in my shop all the time telling me they are smarter than me because they are an "engineer". It kinda backfires on them when I say "really, I'm a degreed engineer, BSME from UMass....so what were you telling me again". Fuckin love the resulting red face



It's even more fun when you pull someone over on a traffic stop and they start going off about how they are an important engineer and talking about the meeting about XX they are late for thinking it's just some dumb cop they're talking at..... ~10 years of professional mechanical engineering experience (no PE) in automotive, aerospace, power generation and telecomm has given me a fairly wide knowledge base

Brian

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Posted: 11/14/2009 1:17:40 AM
Originally Posted By druid223:
Originally Posted By Lexington:
Originally Posted By swingset:
Does a degree always guarantee competency, or the lack of one always guarantee ineptitude?


The discussion is not about competency. It is about credentials.


The OP didn't complain about people who claim to have Engineering Degree's, he said
people who claim to be Engineers. If you walk the walk, you can wear the T-shirt.

There are degreed Engineers working as accountants. Do you want to single them out
and say "You are not really an Accountant, even though you have worked at the trade
for 20 years." Same goes for a moron who flips burgers who has an Engineering Degree
from a marginal school.


Saw an electrophysiologist about a week ago - his undergrad was BSEE from Stanford......

Brian

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Posted: 11/14/2009 1:19:23 AM
Originally Posted By wardog513:
Originally Posted By tesla120:

Originally Posted By coltaceguy:
Originally Posted By larkinmusic:
Maybe they have model trains at home?


hell I guess so


but SRSLY?

how in the hell


Don't you guys consider "Engineers" such as "DOCTORS" requiring degree to be called as such..

No, I don't...

also I'm an Audio Engineer, and I don't have a degree.

a degree is just backing from an accredited institution saying that you know how to jump through hoops and take tests.


what i was thinknig.. a college degree doesnt prove that you are smart only a good test taker


Except I am a shitty test taker and I have a BSME and passed the EIT on the first try......

Brian

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Posted: 11/14/2009 1:25:22 AM
Originally Posted By jbombelli:

Originally Posted By kjensen_co:
Originally Posted By jbombelli:
I think, in order to call yourself an "engineer" you should be required to pass the PE exam, and be licensed. That's the Practice of Engineering Exam, for those of you who might not be aware of its existence.

Use of the title without the license should be punishable.


It doesn't matter to me about the degree, as long as you pass the licensing exam, which if I recall requires 4 years of experience.




I have never taken the exam, nor am I an "engineer."


Why?

PE licensure means very little in the whole field of engineering.

I've been in the engineering field more than 10 years worked in aerospace nearly that whole time except when I taught at a university. I have worked with one engineer in those 10 years who had a PE.

Why do you want to get the government more involved in your life and in how business is conducted?

I think it's absurd that PE licensed person is required to sign off electrical work I want to do on a home even if I've designed the equipment that I'm hooking up. This licensing requirement does not increase the quality of the work nor does it reduce the risk to the servicee or the state.

That's what everybody says who isn't a PE.





I worked at AlliedSignal (now Honeywell) and Agilent (formerly HP) - I knew one guy at AlliedSignal that had his PE. PE registration is not needed nor valued in a lot of the engineering/manufacturing world.

Brian

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Posted: 11/14/2009 1:38:55 AM
Originally Posted By jbombelli:
I think, in order to call yourself an "engineer" you should be required to pass the PE exam, and be licensed. That's the Practice of Engineering Exam, for those of you who might not be aware of its existence.

Use of the title without the license should be punishable.


It doesn't matter to me about the degree, as long as you pass the licensing exam, which if I recall requires 4 years of experience.




I have never taken the exam, nor am I an "engineer."


I would agree to this if the PE exam didn't require an apprenticeship.

I have over 13 years experience as a manufacturing engineer. Majority of Engineers in my industry don't have PEs.
They eat all their own resources up and move to a new area. Then they begin the same cycle that ruined their old den. Soon they'll be moving here. Remember to be prepared when the Libcusts invade.
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Posted: 11/14/2009 1:40:04 AM
Originally Posted By kjensen_co:
Originally Posted By jbombelli:
I think, in order to call yourself an "engineer" you should be required to pass the PE exam, and be licensed. That's the Practice of Engineering Exam, for those of you who might not be aware of its existence.

Use of the title without the license should be punishable.


It doesn't matter to me about the degree, as long as you pass the licensing exam, which if I recall requires 4 years of experience.




I have never taken the exam, nor am I an "engineer."


Why?

PE licensure means very little in the whole field of engineering.

I've been in the engineering field more than 10 years worked in aerospace nearly that whole time except when I taught at a university. I have worked with one engineer in those 10 years who had a PE.

Why do you want to get the government more involved in your life and in how business is conducted?

I think it's absurd that PE licensed person is required to sign off electrical work I want to do on a home even if I've designed the equipment that I'm hooking up. This licensing requirement does not increase the quality of the work nor does it reduce the risk to the servicee or the state.


ALL it does is re-enforce a Union style "Good Ole Boys" network.

The apprenticeship requirements for PE should be trashed.

They eat all their own resources up and move to a new area. Then they begin the same cycle that ruined their old den. Soon they'll be moving here. Remember to be prepared when the Libcusts invade.
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Posted: 11/14/2009 1:41:11 AM
Originally Posted By jbombelli:

Originally Posted By kjensen_co:
Originally Posted By jbombelli:
I think, in order to call yourself an "engineer" you should be required to pass the PE exam, and be licensed. That's the Practice of Engineering Exam, for those of you who might not be aware of its existence.

Use of the title without the license should be punishable.


It doesn't matter to me about the degree, as long as you pass the licensing exam, which if I recall requires 4 years of experience.




I have never taken the exam, nor am I an "engineer."


Why?

PE licensure means very little in the whole field of engineering.

I've been in the engineering field more than 10 years worked in aerospace nearly that whole time except when I taught at a university. I have worked with one engineer in those 10 years who had a PE.

Why do you want to get the government more involved in your life and in how business is conducted?

I think it's absurd that PE licensed person is required to sign off electrical work I want to do on a home even if I've designed the equipment that I'm hooking up. This licensing requirement does not increase the quality of the work nor does it reduce the risk to the servicee or the state.

That's what everybody says who isn't a PE.





Well, some of use are anti-union in all it's forms.
They eat all their own resources up and move to a new area. Then they begin the same cycle that ruined their old den. Soon they'll be moving here. Remember to be prepared when the Libcusts invade.
Tannim
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Posted: 11/14/2009 1:47:41 AM
Originally Posted By brian4wd:
Originally Posted By Tannim:
Originally Posted By Tony-Ri:
Just earning an engineering degree will not allow you to say you're a Professional Engineer.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_over_the_term_Engineer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_engineer#United_States
The licensing procedure varies but the general process is:[url=http://www.ar15.com/#cite_note-3][4][/url]
  1. Graduate with a degree from an accredited four-year university program in engineering.
  2. Complete a standard Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) written examination, which tests applicants on breadth of understanding of basic engineering principles, and optionally some elements of an engineering specialty. Completion of the first two steps typically qualifies for certification in the U.S. as an Engineer-In-Training (EIT), sometimes also called an Engineer Intern (EI).[url=http://www.ar15.com/#cite_note-4][5][/url]
  3. Accumulate a certain amount of engineering experience typically under the supervision of a P.E. In most states the requirement is four years, but in others the requirement is lower.
  4. Complete a written Principles and Practice in Engineering ('PE') examination, testing the applicant's knowledge and skills in a chosen engineering discipline (mechanical, electrical, civil, for example), as well as engineering ethics.




PE is just unionized bullshit. The fact you have to apprentice under someone for 4 years to take it is bullshit.


Care to explain how the PE has anything to do with labor contracts/collective bargaining?

Brian



If you're not working under a Union member (The PE) you'll never qualify to become a Master from Journeymen (EIT). It's a form of protection that limits the availible jobs to people from the Good Ole Boys network. It's a closed shop.

With work experience in the field, you should be able to take the PE Test. If you pass, you should be a PE. Period.

Keeping the system as is just creates a protected job market.

You may disagree. That's your prerogative.
They eat all their own resources up and move to a new area. Then they begin the same cycle that ruined their old den. Soon they'll be moving here. Remember to be prepared when the Libcusts invade.
DrMark
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Posted: 11/14/2009 1:59:57 AM

Originally Posted By AJ_Engineer:
In my state:

5.7 Use of Titles in Architecture and Engineering

5.7.1 Except for those specifically exempted from the law, the title “Professional Engineer” is to
be used only by those who are licensed to practice engineering
in Nebraska.

5.7.2 The criteria for use of the title “Engineer” is education and experience, both of which are
satisfactory to the board. A person who has earned an ABET accredited degree or equivalent in
engineering may use the title “Engineer.”


5.7.3 The criteria for use of the title “Engineer Intern” is a person who has earned an ABET
accredited degree, passed the FE exam and holds an “Engineer Intern Certificate.”

In my experience, the above are the most commonly accepted/used title meanings.

In fact, it's also consistent with Virginia code, which refers specifically to a licensed Engineer as a Professional Engineer: http://law.onecle.com/virginia/professions-and-occupations/54.1-400.html
Code of Virginia - Title 54.1 Professions And Occupations - Section 54.1-400 Definitions
"Professional Engineer" means a person who is qualified to practice engineering by reason of his special knowledge and use of mathematical, physical and engineering sciences and the principles and methods of engineering analysis and design acquired by engineering education and experience, and whose competence has been attested by the Board through licensure as a professional engineer.

I know some with a PE license like to suggest that Engineer should mean Professional Engineer, but Engineering licensing is useful for such a small fraction of the Engineering profession (e.g. building/construction) that such a meaning is not warranted IMO. I know hundreds of Engineers. As far as I know, they're all have Engineering degrees, but only one has a PE license. I think he got it because it was the expected thing to do after he got his CE degree, but for his last 20 years in Aerospace, the license has been useless, assuming he's even kept renewing the license.

As far as the title “Engineer Intern” goes, I've never heard anyone use that!

Regardless, titles pale in importance when compared to a demonstrated body of education, accomplishments, & skills. If I'm reviewing someone's resume, the title they were assigned means little in the big picture.
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fossil_fuel
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Posted: 11/14/2009 2:00:23 AM
It's not an apprenticeship. You don't have to work directly under a PE in order to get a PE yourself. If your company doesn't employ any PE's, does it use any consultants who have a PE? Or can you find anyone who is a PE in your field and would be willing to act as a "mentor"? All you have to do is keep them updated on your projects and give them examples of your work and then you can use them as a reference on the PE application.
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Posted: 11/14/2009 2:04:09 AM
Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
It's not an apprenticeship. You don't have to work directly under a PE in order to get a PE yourself. If your company doesn't employ any PE's, does it use any consultants who have a PE? Or can you find anyone who is a PE in your field and would be willing to act as a "mentor"? All you have to do is keep them updated on your projects and give them examples of your work and then you can use them as a reference on the PE application.


In the time I've worked as an Engineer, there's been 1 PE out of the HUNDREDS I've worked with. He was an Executive VP that used to be a Civil E before he changed careers.
They eat all their own resources up and move to a new area. Then they begin the same cycle that ruined their old den. Soon they'll be moving here. Remember to be prepared when the Libcusts invade.
icebrain
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Posted: 11/14/2009 8:17:00 AM
I know several people who didn't have any kind of college degree, but after ten or fifteen years working on the floor in progressively higher positions, then working with an engineering group on a project and demonstrating competency, were hired as entry-level engineers. A guy like that, with years working on the real hardware and a good understanding of the nuances of maintaining, repairing, and installing things, will often be a hell of a lot more valuable than some fresh-out-of-school kid whose head is filled with numbers and equations but has no real idea what the fuck an airplane looks like, much less how any of the systems work.
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Posted: 11/14/2009 8:35:56 AM
Originally Posted By icebrain:
I know several people who didn't have any kind of college degree, but after ten or fifteen years working on the floor in progressively higher positions, then working with an engineering group on a project and demonstrating competency, were hired as entry-level engineers. A guy like that, with years working on the real hardware and a good understanding of the nuances of maintaining, repairing, and installing things, will often be a hell of a lot more valuable than some fresh-out-of-school kid whose head is filled with numbers and equations but has no real idea what the fuck an airplane looks like, much less how any of the systems work.


Yeah but can he sign off on any job he designs? I think not.

And thats the difference between a real engineer and pretenders.
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Posted: 11/14/2009 11:15:31 AM
You can build a thousand bridges and no one will call you a bridge builder. Suck just one cock and your a cocksucker for life.
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Posted: 11/14/2009 11:31:30 AM
Chief Engineer here..............no degree.
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Posted: 11/14/2009 11:52:23 AM
Originally Posted By Tannim:
Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
It's not an apprenticeship. You don't have to work directly under a PE in order to get a PE yourself. If your company doesn't employ any PE's, does it use any consultants who have a PE? Or can you find anyone who is a PE in your field and would be willing to act as a "mentor"? All you have to do is keep them updated on your projects and give them examples of your work and then you can use them as a reference on the PE application.


In the time I've worked as an Engineer, there's been 1 PE out of the HUNDREDS I've worked with. He was an Executive VP that used to be a Civil E before he changed careers.


are you a member of your field's trade organization? If you wanted to find someone to use as a reference for your application, it really shouldn't be too hard to find a PE in your field if you wanted to badly enough. You should probably call up your state's licensing office and ask them what you should do if you really can't find anyone.
Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you. -Pericles, 430 BC

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normal
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Posted: 11/15/2009 5:22:30 AM
Originally Posted By TheJammer:
Experience makes an engineer. Not a degree. Given, earning such a degree will provide necessary experience to start; I am certain there are plenty of incompetent engineers out there with degrees.



This. My father was an engineer with a well known yellow tractor company without a degree. Of course he had spent his first 25 years building the things and knew more about what would and wouldn't work than those with degrees. They would come to him to ask if their designs would work or not.
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Posted: 11/15/2009 6:58:00 AM
My father is an engineer, but he never completed his degree program. At least he was called an engineer by the company (GE) he worked for. I guess you could make a case that he isn't one. By the way, he has seven patents. Maybe he is just a really smart guy that worked as an engineer. I have a couple of degrees by the way===That don't mean diddly.
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Posted: 11/15/2009 6:59:57 AM
Originally Posted By normal:
Originally Posted By TheJammer:
Experience makes an engineer. Not a degree. Given, earning such a degree will provide necessary experience to start; I am certain there are plenty of incompetent engineers out there with degrees.



This. My father was an engineer with a well known yellow tractor company without a degree. Of course he had spent his first 25 years building the things and knew more about what would and wouldn't work than those with degrees. They would come to him to ask if their designs would work or not.


My Dad said the the same thing. He did not have a degree, but he did have 65 patents. The circuit breaker in the movie Juristic Park was his. (Trivia - it could be reset remotely thus against the script.)

I placed his patent numbers up against anyone here that saves a degree equals knowledge.

PS. I had some cool things made for me while I was growing up.
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Posted: 11/15/2009 9:57:57 PM
Originally Posted By normal:
Originally Posted By TheJammer:
Experience makes an engineer. Not a degree. Given, earning such a degree will provide necessary experience to start; I am certain there are plenty of incompetent engineers out there with degrees.



This. My father was an engineer with a well known yellow tractor company without a degree. Of course he had spent his first 25 years building the things and knew more about what would and wouldn't work than those with degrees. They would come to him to ask if their designs would work or not.



Curious - what exactly would your dad do to determine if a design would work or not? Did he do structural analysis/FEA? Where did he learn how to do the calculations he must have done to determine if those designs would work or not?

Brian
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Posted: 11/15/2009 10:04:09 PM
Engineering is the process of taking a concept through the processes of analysis, design, prototyping, troubleshooting, correction, and initial production, and to a producible or complete product that achieves the design objectives the concept demands.


Nowhere does it say that an engineer MUST be accorded that title in a college ceremony. Engineering is a process, not a credential.


Many of the best real world practical application engineers I know are fine engineers in every sense of the word but never got an engineering degree from any school.


I really don't give a flip about a title awarded with a diploma. Show me what you've actually achieved. THAT might be impressive. Simply showing you passed a school
program by itself doesn't mean shit to me.

Just as I know some good engineers who never went to college, I know some engineers who can't really grasp the concept of a light bulb, practically, but they passed the
engineering courses (by blowing someone, probably... ) so they are accorded the title of engineer even though they lack the skills the title implies.


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Posted: 11/15/2009 10:23:00 PM
Are engineering threads the new 9mm vs .45?
Originally Posted By Silly_Look:
Fucking lightweights. If you're not snorting coke off the hood of the truck through your rifle barrel you're not hunting...
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Posted: 11/15/2009 10:27:55 PM
Originally Posted By Cole2534:
Are engineering threads the new 9mm vs .45?


Apparently.

There are certain disciplines within Engineering that require a PE for advancement beyond a certain level. Typically in Civil & Mechanical fields, and occasionally in Electrical (mostly power distribution or safety).

For other fields, it is an option, but not a necessity. The degree (from an accredited school) is usually the benchmark, although the history of US innovation has been fueled by many an Engineer without the formal degree.

Who be John Galt?

This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.
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Posted: 11/15/2009 10:28:46 PM
I'm an engineer - I drive and operate fire engines and the pump.
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Cole2534
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Posted: 11/15/2009 10:30:14 PM

Originally Posted By Merrell:
Originally Posted By Cole2534:
Are engineering threads the new 9mm vs .45?


Apparently.

There are certain disciplines within Engineering that require a PE for advancement beyond a certain level. Typically in Civil & Mechanical fields, and occasionally in Electrical (mostly power distribution or safety).

For other fields, it is an option, but not a necessity. The degree (from an accredited school) is usually the benchmark, although the history of US innovation has been fueled by many an Engineer without the formal degree.


Aren't you a PE?

I'm in Engineering tech, so I dunno what that makes me. Most of the companies I'm looking into prefer the techs for the work we do.
Originally Posted By Silly_Look:
Fucking lightweights. If you're not snorting coke off the hood of the truck through your rifle barrel you're not hunting...
wingnutx
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Posted: 11/15/2009 10:33:49 PM
My job title is Systems Engineer.

I do not have a degree.

Our orders was to break you, an' of course we went an' did.

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Posted: 11/15/2009 10:42:54 PM
Originally Posted By Cole2534:

Originally Posted By Merrell:
Originally Posted By Cole2534:
Are engineering threads the new 9mm vs .45?


Apparently.

There are certain disciplines within Engineering that require a PE for advancement beyond a certain level. Typically in Civil & Mechanical fields, and occasionally in Electrical (mostly power distribution or safety).

For other fields, it is an option, but not a necessity. The degree (from an accredited school) is usually the benchmark, although the history of US innovation has been fueled by many an Engineer without the formal degree.


Aren't you a PE?

I'm in Engineering tech, so I dunno what that makes me. Most of the companies I'm looking into prefer the techs for the work we do.


No, although it I wanted to sit for the exam I could. There is no particular benefit (aside from cracking the books for a little re-education) which I wind up doing on a regular basis anyway. If I were involved with public projects, for one example, then there would be tremendous advantage to having a PE. In my field it is of virtually no consequence. And before anyone gets out of sorts, it is not belittling those who do have their PE's. It is just not relevant to all fields. I'll cite one example: I have an outsanding Engineer working for me who is an absolute whiz at FPGA's, but would likely struggle with field theory or statics or dynamics. Does that make him a bad Engineer? Absolutely not. He is a specialist in his area (and does have his EE degree). Some areas require command of generalities, and others require in-depth knowledge of a narrow specialty.

Who be John Galt?

This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.
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Posted: 11/15/2009 10:47:04 PM
ETA: And a really good technician is probably worth two or three Engineers. That's not an exaggeration.
Who be John Galt?

This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.
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