I used to work for AT&T.

I started in marketing moved to IT, Billing, Fraud, and eventually Network.  I had a boss that was clueless...like the guy on the Office only worse.
That company motivates through fear and intimidation...fear your office will get shutdown and you'll be sent back to commiefornia!
Anyway...engineering was always a safe bet.
I took the test and got a perfect score.
3 of my coworkers failed the test.
Then there was a 6 month freeze to trap everyone like rats.
After a meeting, I asked the boss:"What will they do with us if they close the center?"
"Don't worry about, they'll just make us all engineers!"
"Cool, I always wanted to drive the train!"

I moved on to greener pastures over a year ago, but know 2 people in that company with the job title of engineer that gon't know a dry loop from a lanyard loop.

Page 4 ownage!

Total and complete bullshit.   The entire PE system needs to be revamped so it has nothing to do with union style apprentice requirements.

Job titles - in my field it has become a joke, right along certifications

CCNA, CCNP, MCSE, CISSP, CISA, Buildmaster, Network Architect, SPRC

All have become multi-syllabic to enhance sense of importance

All little or no indication of actual skillset

as an engineer i must say that yes there are some engineers who are clueless in real world applications of solutions but there are far more who are extremely competent and can apply the knowledge they gained in college to design innovative solutions to problems using techniques/theories that some of those who worked their way into an engineering position may not have been exposed to.  In this debate I hear the proponents of working one's way into an engineering degree berate the clueless engineers but i don't hear them even giving a hand wave to the millions of clueless technicians that can't even solve the simplest of problems without direct supervision so forgive me if I don't automatically assume that one who works in the field knows more than the guy out of college.  Yes a person can be an amazing problem solver and work their way to doing what engineers do and they should be recognized for that accomplishment but also it is important to realize that engineering school isn't like getting a liberal arts degree, to pass in any engineering curriculum that i have seen one must have problem solving skills and that is what the degree is meant to demonstrate and the reason why a person straight out of school can be considered for the job when a person with a years field experience isn't.  While a person who works the job for 20 years is fully capable of creating a solution to a problem the engineer with the degree is likely to understand the whys and not just the hows.  I have a really good relationship with the technicians who implement my ideas and as such we accomplish much more than some of the other groups where the technicians think the engineer is an idiot because his new design had flaws and instead of working through it with him they simply use it as ammo to belitle engineers in general.  What is interesting is that the guys who worked their way to fill an engineers slot most likely made the same mistakes along the way but if an engineer does it even once the techs will tear them apart instead of helping.  It is a self fulfilling prophecy.  My experience has been that the engineer with a college degree is much more likely to try an entirely new design to solve a problem which has many opportunities for things to not go 100% while many of those who worked their way into an engineering slot will opt for simple upgrades to a system that sometimes are as dated as the original system itself which is a safer but not necessarily better approach.

Not that you're an elitist, but as an ME, engineering is wayyyy older than engineering degrees.  And the more degrees one attains in the discipline, the less useful one appears to become.  To quote the old adage....

If a PhD is a sign of intelligence, we're doomed.

There were physicians long before there were Colleges of Medicine or licenses to practice medicine..

There were judges before there were lawschools or bar exams.

There were no moon rockets, or SR-71's, or F-22's, or World Trade Centers before licensed engineers.

The problem with advanced engineering degrees is that each one becomes progressively more narrowly focused which can make that person a genius in some obscure theory but leads them further away from the real world application.  But that kind of progress has tremendous value as well, it is those theories which often breed new technologies that were considered sci-fi not so long ago.

+1





Metroplex P.E.



FYI they're talking about requiring a Master's in Engineering degree before you can take the PE exam in a few more years.





 

The Brakeman

I do not get to drive the train
Nor even ring the bell
But watch the train run off the tracks
And see who catches Hell!

The industry I work in is full of engineers that don't have any college degrees.  Do they know the rights and wrongs on the systems they work on?  You bet in fact they smoke the youngins with degrees all the time.



What they have is knowledge and most importantly experience in this particular industry.  Could they go and jump into another industry?  Probably not and most are retiring or being forced into retirement by the current economic situations.  That means we'll be stuck with inexperience book learnt people who don't know how to apply what they've learned.



It is going to be a huge problem in the industry I work in if it isn't already.  A huge brain drain and that knowledge has not really gone to anyone else including overseas.  

It happens.

Hell, I have one working for me. My own fault, though. I hired her.

The fact is that experience often counts more than a degree alone.

This:
Does a degree always guarantee competency, or the lack of one always guarantee ineptitude?

Answer:  NO!

Many Arrogant College Bred Texans sure do think so.

Personally, I think they need to get out of their state more often.

And...
I have a degree and a professional license. I just choose not to be arrogant or superior about it.

OJT:   On the job training and expeareance trumps a degree for competancy.

Never in all my 30 years in my profession have I seen a more arrogant, elitist bunch of college graduates than in Texas.

In my state:



AJ_Engineer (lowly Engineer Intern for the time being....)

I am a professional engineer (I have my Professional Engineering License in two states, and an engineering degree from an ABET certified university) and it annoys the shit out of me when some asshole who has not done any of those calls themselves an engineer.

Spoken like someone who is an "engineer" without a degree. I get these types in my shop all the time telling me they are smarter than me because they are an "engineer". It kinda backfires on them when I say "really, I'm a degreed engineer, BSME from UMass....so what were you telling me again". Fuckin love the resulting red face

You mean BS not BA

I have an AAS in Electrical and have studied electronics / electrical theory for about 20 years now......but I dont call myself an engineer.
Several of my job titles were "engineer" but that was just what the company called me....not how I marked myself.
Even after I went on to earn several industry certifications and do the same work as my peers with degrees, I always held the MS as the gold standard...and I dont even have a BS...so I just dont feel comfortable annoucing myself as an engineer.

That is pretty much me as well.

My first job out of the Army my title was Senior Systems Engineer. I don't even have a college degree, and I couldn't engineer a solution to wet a paper bag prior to fighting my way out of it.

It was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overused 10 years ago, I think it's less so now, but if I had an Engineering degree it would certainly piss me off to see someone misusing the title.

And again, ARFCOM longs for the days of manufacturing that are forever gone from the US...yes, 50 years ago, you COULD be an engineer without a degree (easily).

Times have changed, the job has changed (doesn't matter if its for the better or not, in your opinion!)

It will NEVER be like that again (that's how it ALWAYS works), so if you choose to want to believe in apprenticeship engineering and things that were prevelant 50 years ago, you will continue to be extremely disappointed...

The OP didn't complain about people who claim to have Engineering Degree's, he said
people who claim to be Engineers.  If you walk the walk, you can wear the T-shirt.

There are degreed Engineers working as accountants.  Do you want to single them out
and say "You are not really an Accountant, even though you have worked at the trade
for 20 years."  Same goes for a moron who flips burgers who has an Engineering Degree
from a marginal school.

I'm not so sure that a Molecular Physicist or a Bio Engineer would agree with you.

And that you had the money to do it.

what i was thinknig.. a college degree doesnt prove that you are smart only a good test taker

according to the OP you should

some people are so damn stuck on degrees, the real world does not work like college.

Job title and personal accomplishment are two different things...

Can you stamp legally binding technical / construction documentation with your professional stamp? It is a simple question.
This is what makes you an real engineer

I have many years in the architecture field and am very good at what I do but I would never call myself an architect. I can design the most complex of buildings, manage the engineers' systems that go into these buildings but cannot stamp the construction documents because I do not have AIA behind my name.

This requires certification from the AIA and I simply do not have this yet. This is the law.
(Still does not bar the tech industry from using and defaming this title)

If you cannot run rings around an inexperienced college grad as a seasoned veteran in your technical field
then there is something wrong with you. This just illustrates the chip on the shoulder for some people regarding college degrees.
College is just more education, it does not put a crown on your head. In my industry, everybody starts out the same - production draftsmen.
It is only the college grads that go on to be lead designers and firm owners.

You are lost without the years of intensive studying of the architectural legacy. Does it make you a better designer or architect, no, you
might also be an idiot. I have had plenty of folks with master degrees that worked for me that sucked but some were brilliant as well.
It is all what you do with it.

In most states you cant legally, in fact. Having a degree does not make you an engineer.  

You have to have passed the Professional Engineering Test and other qualifications (PE).

Then and only then can you use the title Engineer.

come to Virginia... it won't be long before Texas looks real damned good again... lol lol lol


BTW.. although my assigned titles are staff engineer and field supervisor... I call myself a consultant... not an engineer.

Since when do you have to have a degree to be called an "engineer?"



A man takes a job, he becomes that job.





note:  I am not an engineer.  

I think some people have a hatred for college because they couldn't hack it, and that's coming from someone who doesn't have a college degree.

I don't have one, but I'm not going to say that people who do, don't know anything related to their field.

There are exceptions to the rule, a broken clock is right twice a day, but most people do actually gain something from going to college, and gain needed information for their careers.

I tried having them change my title to Ninjaneer on my business card. They wouldn't go for it.

Who wants to be called an engineer anyway?

I like being the guy who makes stuff work much better.

Engineers are very good at drawing stuff that can never be built though,give them props for that

I wish I could have read this thread 20 yeas ago. I would have saved myself so much trouble earning my BSEE. I would have discovered people with degrees are dumb and can't do their job and people without them are smart and can do the job.

Not having read all four pages, I am a Mechanical engineer with a degree, and a degree means jack shit as to the competence or ability of most engineers.  There are real turds with tons of pedigrees, and people with no degree that are fantastic engineers.

All that school does for you is teach you how to check your work.  It doesn't teach you how to be creative and come up with solutions.  It does teach you how to crunch the numbers and see if your solution will work.

You're probably missing the boat on some really bright people. When I hear people talk like you do and exalt the greatness of egalitarianism or plutocratic ideals I tend to get them off my projects. Unless there is a very good business case, I'd rather cut your ass loose. I don't need arrogant people who think because they have a degree they are better than the rest without them.

This.

LOL!

According to many people on this website, and in particular this thread, everyone with an actual degree in engineering is an incompetant, drooling, mouth-breathing retard while everyone without a degree in engineering is absolutely brilliant and "best in the industry". So its OK if they label themselves an engineer without "jumping through hoops and taking tests"...

Let me ask what the general consensus is about people who falsely claim to be military/SEALs/SF, etc. On this website, they are unanimously branded as wannabes and scumbags and are ridiculed to no end. Why? They are just claiming to be something they are not without jumping through all the hoops and taking all the tests. What is so different?

(I am a senior in ME and I do not approve of anyone claiming to be something they are not - military or otherwise - for any kind of personal gain without having truly earned it.)

The logic on this website is truly baffling at times.

It's a job title and has been for a couple of decades.

I'm a Software Engineer 2, it says so on my card. The people that give me all this money say I'm a software engineer and I'm not going to argue with them about it as long as they continue to give me money for it.

My official title at work is "Systems Engineer". I do not have an engineering degree. People who have held this position prior to me had engineering degrees (EE mostly).



I am actually a system administrator.

You're jumping to conclusions.

How about you analyze the comments a bit more.

There can be people who do engineering jobs well without an engineering degree.
There can be people who do engineering jobs poorly without an engineering degree.
There can be people who do engineering jobs well with an engineering degree.
There can be people who do engineering jobs poorly with an engineering degree.

All of the above statements are true.

I certainly believe that my engineering education was good and I learned a great deal. The problem is that you don't need an engineering degree to accomplish the work I do. I currently design computers, at the board and box level, for spacecraft. The problem space is so limited because there are so many people in the "design" process that your contribution is small. That small contribution doesn't require the full range of education I received during my education. In fact, I know people who got into this type of design without a degree a long time ago and do perfectly fine today.

The compartmentalization of engineering design is currently at such a high level that very few engineers do actual design work anymore. We have the ability to do it, yet we're merely high-end technicians who read data sheets to hook up well-known components.

Also, I've done work in HVAC and came to the same conclusion. There is very little engineering that requires a massive investment in time and dollars.

Every aerospace engineering job I've held existed more as a jobs program than an engineering role. I'm really tired of it. Sure, I do a great job and get very high reviews and maximum raise when eligible but there is no intellectual or psychomotor  fulfillment .

Apparently....a rocket scientist you are not.

21B

I think, in order to call yourself an "engineer" you should be required to pass the PE exam, and be licensed.  That's the Practice of Engineering Exam, for those of you who might not be aware of its existence.
Use of the title without the license should be punishable.
It doesn't matter to me about the degree, as long as you pass the licensing exam, which if I recall requires 4 years of experience.
I have never taken the exam, nor am I an "engineer."
 

We don't need no stinking degree!!!

Why?

PE licensure means very little in the whole field of engineering.

I've been in the engineering field more than 10 years worked in aerospace nearly that whole time except when I taught at a university. I have worked with one engineer in those 10 years who had a PE.

Why do you want to get the government more involved in your life and in how business is conducted?

I think it's absurd that PE licensed person is required to sign off electrical work I want to do on a home even if I've designed the equipment that I'm hooking up. This licensing requirement does not increase the quality of the work nor does it reduce the risk to the servicee or the state.

Hi I thought I would give a view from the Uk.

In the UK anyone can and does call themselves an engineer, its is not a restricted term hence my personal annoyance of seeing the coffee machine out of order and seeing a sign saying "engineer called"..

I did a four year bachelours degree and upon completion worked for Raytheon designing hardware and FPGAs where after four years I gained my professional registration, in the UK this means becomming a chartered engineer and it is protected in law. Registration then required two years of experience under the guidance of registered engineers and then two years of relevent experience were you had to demonstrate the skills you had learnt in the pervious two years, before facing a very challenging technical interview. Registered engineers are entitled to use the post nominal CEng. When I graduated a bachelours was sufficent but they recently changed it require a masters degree (Raytheon did pay for me to do one of these part time but it was no different to the bachelours really).

I have just over 10 years of experience now and lead a team of engineers  along with my other engineering responsbilities for one of the major european defence comapnies. I have engineers in my team who do not have degrees and are very good and similarly engineers who have Phd's but are to accedemic and not focused on delivering the product. I have recently had to address an engineer who worked for me who had no degree and had worked his way up to being an engineer unfortunately everything he had been involved with over the last 10 years had been a disaster and being new to the company I decided enough was enough and he left. One of the cleaverst systems engineers I know had only a HNC (equivelent to a associates degree I think)

I love engineering I have worked on some of the most interesting projects going seen some very interesting things, had some very interesting experiences and even had a few papers published by the IEEE

IMHO, the term "engineer" implies what you do, not what you are.

Lots of engineers (good ones) in the power generating industry that got where they are through hard work and years of experience, not college courses.

That's what everybody says who isn't a PE.
 

It really depends on the field of engineering you're in.  Civil?  PE is an absolute necessity.

Chemical, Aerospace? not so much

Others are somewhere in between.