Author
Message
Fourays2
No friend of the UN
Online
Posts: 6261
Feedback: 0% (0)
Posted: 10/10/2009 10:21:53 PM
OK I have a T/C encore in 223 rem and an AR15. I'm assuming the AR15 is cut for 5.56 because it's a milspec M4 barrel with a pinned f/h to take it over 16" I load 223 for the T/C and neck size only. the brass drops fine into the T/C but won't chamber in the AR. I always thought military chambers were cut a bit looser than civilian ones were because of reliable feeding in mud etc. any one got any ideas what the difference is except fuck obama?
When the shit jumps up, what the fuck you gonna do?
sp1shooter
hi
Offline
Posts: 1726
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/10/2009 10:26:37 PM
fuck obama
"They're not people, they're hippies!" Cartman
Lon_Moer
Kalifornia, not Korea
Offline
Posts: 17910
Feedback: 100% (15)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/10/2009 10:29:33 PM
All questions shall be answered by the Ammo Oracle
An empty face reflects extinction, Ugly scars divide the nation
Desecrate the population, There will be no exaltation
Stand or fall
MACD
Member
Offline
Posts: 8506
Feedback: 100% (98)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/10/2009 10:31:49 PM
Some ARs still have .223 chambers (I think DPMS does?), do you have a Wylde chamber in the TC?
To err is human. To err, deny erring, make counter accusations, stick your fingers in your ears and continue erring is GD. -Faustieah
Chris0013
Offline
Posts: 491
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/10/2009 10:33:03 PM
Originally Posted By sp1shooter:
fuck obama



+1
Fourays2
No friend of the UN
Online
Posts: 6264
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/10/2009 10:35:56 PM
Originally Posted By MACD:
Some ARs still have .223 chambers (I think DPMS does?), do you have a Wylde chamber in the TC?


I don't know, I would think it would say so on the barrel. What is the different between the wylde and a stock 223?
When the shit jumps up, what the fuck you gonna do?
knucklehead
Sometimes you just gotta say...hmmm.
Offline
Posts: 251
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/10/2009 10:43:20 PM
Full length sizing may help this.
Also make sure the case length is under max.
I kid. I'm kidding. I'm a kidder.
MACD
Member
Offline
Posts: 8510
Feedback: 100% (98)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/10/2009 10:46:15 PM
[Last Edit: 10/10/2009 10:59:30 PM by MACD]

Originally Posted By Fourays2:
Originally Posted By MACD:
Some ARs still have .223 chambers (I think DPMS does?), do you have a Wylde chamber in the TC?

I don't know, I would think it would say so on the barrel. What is the different between the wylde and a stock 223?

.223 chambers are tighter than 5.56, and Wylde is in between somewhere. Many match ARs seem to use Wylde, it might cross over to bolt guns/single shots too but I have no idea.

If your brass has been fire-formed to a Wylde chamber you might have issues in some .223 barrels from what I understand.

ETA: This is complete speculation on my part, I don't know a thing about reloading but have read about people having trouble with 5.56 to .223, don't know if Wylde is enough difference to matter.

If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me in a very pleasant manor
To err is human. To err, deny erring, make counter accusations, stick your fingers in your ears and continue erring is GD. -Faustieah
Bumblebee_Bob
Screw Dafur, Save America!
Offline
Posts: 18637
Feedback: 100% (13)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/10/2009 10:53:18 PM
A .223 chamber has a shorter throate than one in 5.56mm. And just because they of your guns are chambered for the "same" round doesn't mean their chambers were cut with the same reamer. Thus you'll get enough differences that a cartridge neck sized for one won't chamber in the other. This is normal. Even with guns from the same manufacturer/model/caliber.
Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should
relax and get used to the idea.
-Robert A. Heinlein

Drugs kicked in now, need sleep, radiation tastes funny at 7 am every day... a bit like victory. - Ginger
italianwjt
Member
Offline
Posts: 726
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/10/2009 11:14:06 PM

Originally Posted By sp1shooter:
fuck obama


"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Reagan

"What seems to the the officer problem?" Stan Marsh
Random_Sample
Member
Offline
Posts: 104
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/10/2009 11:30:28 PM

Originally Posted By MACD:

If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me in a very pleasant manor


That cracked me up.
"Some love money more than what it will buy." - Wesley Irvin
Fourays2
No friend of the UN
Online
Posts: 6266
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/10/2009 11:35:10 PM
Originally Posted By Random_Sample:

Originally Posted By MACD:

If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me in a very pleasant manor


That cracked me up.


yeah, cause most posters in GD are known for their civility
When the shit jumps up, what the fuck you gonna do?
a43mranger
Member
Offline
Posts: 95
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/10/2009 11:45:23 PM
Get a full leangth die and try that bolt guns only need a neck resizer and it always be used in the same gun. semi auto generally need a full lenght die
ThePrim8
Offline
Posts: 215
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 12:18:17 AM
Here's a giggler.

I've got a DPMS upper labeled .223. I've shot a metric assload of 5.56 ammo through it, mostly SA, then a bunch of LC XM193. It didn't blow up.

Am I going to hell? Should I post a poll?

hobbsar
Member
Offline
Posts: 3185
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 12:22:36 AM
Originally Posted By ThePrim8:
Here's a giggler.

I've got a DPMS upper labeled .223. I've shot a metric assload of 5.56 ammo through it, mostly SA, then a bunch of LC XM193. It didn't blow up.

Am I going to hell? Should I post a poll?



I think my DPMS is marked .223 also and I have shot .223 of several brands and some 5.56 xm-193 I think no problems.

Growing old is inevitible. Growing up is optional.
Fourays2
No friend of the UN
Online
Posts: 6267
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 12:22:55 AM
Originally Posted By a43mranger:
Get a full leangth die and try that bolt guns only need a neck resizer and it always be used in the same gun. semi auto generally need a full lenght die


yeah I was trying to avoid doing that due to the shitty f/l resizer I have. I guess I'll have spend some money on a decent one
When the shit jumps up, what the fuck you gonna do?
Hal143
Online
Posts: 2524
Feedback: 100% (138)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 12:22:59 AM
Jeez.

Lot's of wizdom in this thread.
RIA45ACP
1911's>All
Offline
Posts: 2855
Feedback: 100% (26)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 12:24:13 AM
TC barrels have a standard SAAMI 223 spec chamber.
كافر
odfox
I like cheese
Offline
Posts: 1170
Feedback: 100% (4)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 12:29:11 AM
What bullets are you loading for the T/C? What's the history on the AR, has it accepted factory loads or has it had trouble chambering those too?
"Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true. " -Niels Bohr
Lon_Moer
Kalifornia, not Korea
Offline
Posts: 17917
Feedback: 100% (15)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 2:38:18 AM
[Last Edit: 10/11/2009 2:41:51 AM by Lon_Moer]
EVERYTHING SHALL BE ANSWERED BY THE AMMO ORACLE!!!




Q. How can I tell if a round is SAAMI, US military, or 5.56 NATO Mil-Spec?



In the 1950's, the US military adopted the metric system of measurement and uses metric measurements to describe ammo. However, the US commercial ammo market typically used the English "caliber" measurements when describing ammo. "Caliber" is a shorthand way of saying "hundredths (or thousandths) of an inch." For example, a fifty caliber projectile is approximately fifty one-hundredths (.50) of an inch and a 357 caliber projectile is approximately three-hundred and fifty-seven thousandths (.357) of an inch. Dimensionally, 5.56 and .223 ammo are identical, though military 5.56 ammo is typically loaded to higher pressures and velocities than commercial ammo and may, in guns with extremely tight "match" .223 chambers, be unsafe to fire.

The chambers for .223 and 5.56 weapons are not the same either. Though the AR15 design provides an extremely strong action, high pressure signs on the brass and primers, extraction failures and cycling problems may be seen when firing hot 5.56 ammo in .223-chambered rifles. Military M16s and AR15s from Colt, Bushmaster, FN, DPMS, and some others, have the M16-spec chamber and should have no trouble firing hot 5.56 ammunition.

Military M16s have slightly more headspace and have a longer throat area, compared to the SAAMI .223 chamber spec, which was originally designed for bolt-action rifles. Commercial SAAMI-specification .223 chambers have a much shorter throat or leade and less freebore than the military chamber. Shooting 5.56 Mil-Spec ammo in a SAAMI-specification chamber can increase pressure dramatically, up to an additional 15,000 psi or more.

The military chamber is often referred to as a "5.56 NATO" chamber, as that is what is usually stamped on military barrels. Some commercial AR manufacturers use the tighter ".223" (i.e., SAAMI-spec and often labeled ".223" or ".223 Remington") chamber, which provides for increased accuracy but, in self-loading rifles, less cycling reliability, especially with hot-loaded military ammo. A few AR manufacturers use an in-between chamber spec, such as the Wylde chamber. Many mis-mark their barrels too, which further complicates things. You can generally tell what sort of chamber you are dealing with by the markings, if any, on the barrel, but always check with the manufacturer to be sure.

Typical Colt Mil-Spec-type markings: C MP 5.56 NATO 1/7

Typical Bushmaster markings: B MP 5.56 NATO 1/9 HBAR

DPMS marks their barrels ".223", though they actually have 5.56 chambers.

Olympic Arms marks their barrels with "556", with some additionally marked "SS" or "SUM." This marking is used on all barrels, even older barrels that used .223 chambers and current target models that also use .223 chambers. Non-target barrels made since 2001 should have 5.56 chambers.

Armalite typically doesn't mark their barrels. A2 and A4 models had .223 chambers until mid-2001, and have used 5.56 chambers since. The (t) models use .223 match chambers.

Rock River Arms uses the Wylde chamber specs on most rifles, and does not mark their barrels.

Most other AR manufacturers' barrels are unmarked, and chamber dimensions are unknown.

Opinion: In general it is a bad idea to attempt to fire 5.56 rounds (e.g., M193, M855) in .223 chambers, particularly with older rifles.


Fact: SAAMI specifically warns against the use of 5.56mm ammo in .223 chambers. The .223 SAAMI specification was originally made with bolt rifles in mind.



5.56 v. .223 Remington specification.


An empty face reflects extinction, Ugly scars divide the nation
Desecrate the population, There will be no exaltation
Stand or fall
bobbyjack
Team Member
Offline
Posts: 11565
Feedback: 100% (8)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 2:48:55 AM
My Rem Mod 700 in .223 Rem does not like 5.56 and has hard ejection problems,I don't use it!

Bob
Never forget Sarg Troy Jenkins a real Hero,and CPL Dunham they live side by side! Hell is full but Heaven hath no boundries!
txlongshot
Offline
Posts: 15
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 2:57:02 AM
I'd be sure and check the receiver prior to firing. I bought an upper recently from a well known mfr, requested 5.56 and when I sent it to my gunsmith for some customization he found it was actually .223. He was able to modify it so no big deal.

Being my first AR - why would anyone want a .223 cut chamber anyway? My understanding is a 5.56 chamber will fire both but a .223 won't fire 5.56. What am I missing?

MACD
Member
Offline
Posts: 8518
Feedback: 100% (98)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 3:06:39 AM

Originally Posted By Hal143:
Jeez.

Lot's of wizdom in this thread.

So give us the answer...
To err is human. To err, deny erring, make counter accusations, stick your fingers in your ears and continue erring is GD. -Faustieah
Cypher15
Member
Online
Posts: 5664
Feedback: 100% (1)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 3:09:59 AM

Originally Posted By MACD:

Originally Posted By Fourays2:
Originally Posted By MACD:
Some ARs still have .223 chambers (I think DPMS does?), do you have a Wylde chamber in the TC?

I don't know, I would think it would say so on the barrel. What is the different between the wylde and a stock 223?

.223 chambers are tighter than 5.56, and Wylde is in between somewhere. Many match ARs seem to use Wylde, it might cross over to bolt guns/single shots too but I have no idea.

If your brass has been fire-formed to a Wylde chamber you might have issues in some .223 barrels from what I understand.

ETA: This is complete speculation on my part, I don't know a thing about reloading but have read about people having trouble with 5.56 to .223, don't know if Wylde is enough difference to matter.

If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me in a very pleasant manor
5.56 in .223 = risk of kaboom (higher pressure)

.223 in 5.56 chamber = slightly degraded accuracy

"It is the Marine, who salutes the flag,
who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag
that allows the protester to burn the flag."
gitarmac
Member
Offline
Posts: 4852
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 10:21:34 AM
The ammo oracle seems only to address the fit of 5.56 in .223 barrels, not vice versa.

Now I am curious as to what the reason is.

TAG
"I wish I knew what mushroom to eat that would make my world normal again"

Salvia - it has the shoulder thing that goes up.
pdg45acp
Outspoken Advocate Of 225 Grain Lead Round Nose
Offline
Posts: 7322
Feedback: 100% (22)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 10:24:04 AM
Originally Posted By Chris0013:
Originally Posted By sp1shooter:
fuck obama



+1


+10

The Democrats have had "Full" control of both the House of and Senate since the 2006 election, that means we've had almost 3 years of Democrat Party mismanagement of this country.
pdg45acp
Outspoken Advocate Of 225 Grain Lead Round Nose
Offline
Posts: 7323
Feedback: 100% (22)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 10:26:55 AM
Originally Posted By bobbyjack:
My Rem Mod 700 in .223 Rem does not like 5.56 and has hard ejection problems,I don't use it!

Bob


Same here.

I use Dillon .223 dies and check it all in a .223 case gage.



The Democrats have had "Full" control of both the House of and Senate since the 2006 election, that means we've had almost 3 years of Democrat Party mismanagement of this country.
Outsydlooknin75
If Pete Rose had a Mosin Nagant he wouldn't slide.
Offline
Posts: 6058
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 10:31:47 AM
The problem lies in that he neck sized only.

Meaning that his brass expanded to the size of the chamber in the Encore. Unless the Encore and the AR chambers are the same, brass that has been neck sized only is only going to work in that Encore and only THAT Encore.

It is reccomended that brass be full length resized when being used in a semi auto weapon because it will resize the entire case and not just the neck like he has been doing.
If you can read this thank a teacher, if you can read this in English, thank a soldier.

"Nothing ends an argument like a "I don't think it's appropriate to be used here comment". Helldog40
Fourays2
No friend of the UN
Online
Posts: 6270
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 10:35:57 AM
Originally Posted By odfox:
What bullets are you loading for the T/C? What's the history on the AR, has it accepted factory loads or has it had trouble chambering those too?


55 gr hornady A-max bullets for the T/C loads and the AR15 runs OK with anything including wolf
When the shit jumps up, what the fuck you gonna do?
BustinCaps
Offline
Posts: 3772
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 10:40:41 AM
Originally Posted By MACD:


If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me in a very pleasant manor


You brought this on yerself.......

Would you like to be corrected in a large spanish manor, or would you prefer an Italian one nestled in the heart of Tuscany???

GiggleSmith
الجارحه
Offline
Posts: 17225
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 10:42:46 AM
Originally Posted By pdg45acp:
Originally Posted By Chris0013:
Originally Posted By sp1shooter:
fuck obama
+1


+10
+11

"He should have killed me. I would have killed me."
nightstalker
In for a Penny, In for a Pound
Online
Posts: 18306
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 10:55:17 AM
I remember asking DPMS about the chamber and they said the same thing the ammo oracle said, marked .223 but it's 5.56.

Shoot mostly 855 and no issues. DPMS Panther A2
Don't think you aren't living under a tyranny just because your views coincide with the tyrant's.

When words lose their meaning, a people can move neither hand nor foot. Confucius
batmanacw
Member
Offline
Posts: 7870
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 11:59:07 AM
All the different types of chambers are cut the same. With a reamer. The dimensions may be different.
A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.
Thomas Jefferson
DarkCharisma
Member
Offline
Posts: 5349
Feedback: 100% (2)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 12:06:43 PM
[Last Edit: 10/11/2009 12:07:35 PM by DarkCharisma]
Originally Posted By MACD:
Some ARs still have .223 chambers (I think DPMS does?), do you have a Wylde chamber in the TC?


DPMS chambers are 5.56mm (and marked as such), except on their varminter rifles.

From here;

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=306487

Says;

Q: Is .223 the same as 5.56, can I shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber or vice versa?
A: In short .223 is not the same as 5.56 in chambering - though the ammo dimensionally is identical. Yes you can shoot .223 in 5.56, no you should not shoot 5.56 in .223. For details and explainations why read the Ammo FAQ (above).

Ammo FAQ; http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/
Fourays2
No friend of the UN
Online
Posts: 6274
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 4:57:42 PM
I f/l resized some of the 223 brass from the T/C and it dropped right into the AR15 chamber with the bolt in battery. I guess the T/C chamber is cut looser than the 5.56 chamber in the AR15?
When the shit jumps up, what the fuck you gonna do?
America-first
Member
Offline
Posts: 13975
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 5:24:07 PM
http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/news/newsview.aspx?storyid=11

Law Enforcement News and Press Releases Details

News and Press Releases
.223 Rem VS 5.56mm

Paul Nowak
5/4/2001
.223 Rem VS 5.56mm

There are a lot of questions about these two cartridges. Many people think they are identical - merely different designations for commercial and military. The truth is that, although somewhat similar, they are not the same and you should know the differences before buying either cartridge.

* The cartridge casings for both calibers have basically the same length and exterior dimensions.
* The 5.56 round, loaded to Military Specification, typically has higher velocity and chamber pressure than the .223 Rem.
* The 5.56 cartridge case may have thicker walls, and a thicker head, for extra strength. This better contains the higher chamber pressure. However, a thicker case reduces powder capacity, which is of concern to the reloader.
* The 5.56mm and .223 Rem chambers are nearly identical. The difference is in the "Leade". Leade is defined as the portion of the barrel directly in front of the chamber where the rifling has been conically removed to allow room for the seated bullet. It is also more commonly known as the throat. Leade in a .223 Rem chamber is usually .085". In a 5.56mm chamber the leade is typically .162", or almost twice as much as in the 223 Rem chamber.
* You can fire .223 Rem cartridges in 5.56mm chambers with this longer leade, but you will generally have a slight loss in accuracy and velocity over firing the .223 round in the chamber with the shorter leade it was designed for.
* Problems may occur when firing the higher-pressure 5.56mm cartridge in a .223 chamber with its much shorter leade. It is generally known that shortening the leade can dramatically increase chamber pressure. In some cases, this higher pressure could result in primer pocket gas leaks, blown cartridge case heads and gun functioning issues.
* The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a .223 Rem chamber is considered by SAAMI (Small Arm and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an unsafe ammunition combination.



Before buying either of these two types of ammunition, always check your gun to find what caliber it is chambered for, then buy the appropriate ammunition. Most 5.56mm rounds made have full metal jacket bullets. Performance bullets - soft points, hollow points, Ballistic Silvertips, etc. - are loaded in .223 Rem cartridges. Firing a .223 Rem cartridge in a 5.56mm-chambered gun is safe and merely gives you slightly reduced velocity and accuracy. However we do not recommend, nor does SAAMI recommend, firing a 5.56mm cartridge in a gun chambered for the .223 Rem as the shorter leade can cause pressure-related problems.

Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition

East Alton Illinois

No single raindrop believes it is responsible for the flood.
mousehunter
Member
Offline
Posts: 4246
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 10/11/2009 5:45:11 PM
iirc almost nothing manufactured in the last 20 years (maybe closer to 30 now) is a true Remington .223 - too much liability if a 5.56 on the long side of spec get's chambered. I thing the Wylde is a 5.56 with tight specs - no room for out of spec 5.56. Question is your 1955 bolt action .223 actually chambered to the Remington spec? That said, this is not the only cartridge that could have problems in old guns. Run a level II 45/70 in a trap door, or even a hot 30/06 in a early run 30/06 and you will probably have way more pressure than those guns were designed for as well (but that is due to the guns not being designed for modern powder - not a headspace issue).