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Posted: 9/10/2009 2:07:01 PM EDT
[#1]
"As I understand it, the rule is you are a firearms dealer and subject to regulation if you sell regularly and with the primary purpose of earning a living. This guy bought/sold an average of about 1.3 guns per month, hardly enough to make a living."
You sell a rifle a month for $8300.00 to $11000.00 each and do that for a year and yes I think you are going to make a pretty good living. Don't tell me as a FED he didn't have access to information that the scumbag deputy he sold the .50 cals to wasn't dirty. In my eyes that makes him dirty as well. We gun owners have enough trouble with the sheep, we don't need the LE community adding to it. |
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Posted: 9/10/2009 2:14:50 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
On the other hand, it's somehow satisfying to hear about one of Lon Horiuchi's ilk brethren being screwed over on firearms charges, which is where Horiuchi's path to Ruby Ridge started... What the fuck are you talking about? Shipley seems to be one of us, not some asshole that kills civilians. |
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Posted: 9/10/2009 2:16:49 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Don't tell me as a FED he didn't have access to information that the scumbag deputy he sold the .50 cals to wasn't dirty. Oh yes, because every individual agent of the FBI knows everyfuckingthing a deputy from BFE does. 
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Posted: 9/10/2009 2:19:50 PM EDT
[#4]
interesting.
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Posted: 9/10/2009 2:22:09 PM EDT
[#5]
cry me a fucking river.
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Posted: 9/10/2009 2:26:04 PM EDT
[#6]
Ehhhh I dont know guys. Without more details its really hard to say... but I will say this. If you live in a border town, and ANYONE(much less a hispanik bike gang member, cop or not) is willing to purchase 3 .50 bmg's from you for at or higher than the off the shelf price from an FFL..... you just might want to think twice about that sale. I say more details because we don't know precisely what model and extras were included in the sale, but from the sounds of it the guy was paying damn near new prices for semi auto barrets. Big warning flag for someone to be eager to make multiple FTF purchases at msrp.
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Posted: 9/10/2009 2:32:40 PM EDT
[#7]
fuck them all. i am just glad there is misery
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Posted: 9/10/2009 2:39:58 PM EDT
[#8]
Who the fuck cares what he did for a living,the point is if this guy goes down on this stupid charge it could be anyone else who sells guns whenever the law decides they feel like going after you.
Some times gun owners surprise me. |
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Posted: 9/10/2009 2:53:56 PM EDT
[#9]
Pretty big case of bad (see def. of idiot) judgment. Anyone this agent's pedigree working in the same geographic as the buyer, would've known there legal issues with the former deputy's activities. Sounds like he should've known better.
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Posted: 9/10/2009 3:02:19 PM EDT
[#10]
John, is a good man. He has always come across to me as of the highest moral character.
I do not buy into this at all. Due to our proximity to the border there is always a danger in those who care not for the law, our country and our way of life taking advantage of the God given rights that we Americans have been gifted. We deal with this everyday. Especially when it comes to our 2nd Amendment rights we are always weary of engaging in normal transactions even at the local stores. The enemy we face here is real. They are crafty. The Mexican Government is getting itself involved in our justice system and like Ramos and Campeon, Agent Shipley maybe their next victim. If you had ever met John Shipley you would all agree that he is a class act. I do not believe that this good man has done the things he is being charged with. If you met John you wouldn't either. |
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Posted: 9/10/2009 3:04:44 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Don't tell me as a FED he didn't have access to information that the scumbag deputy he sold the .50 cals to wasn't dirty. Oh yes, because every individual agent of the FBI knows everyfuckingthing a deputy from BFE does. The Deputy that bought John's Barrett told the feds that John had nothing to do with any of it!!!! EDIT: The scumbag Deputy is not in jail for selling guns to Mexican gangs. He is in jail for the posession of an illegal SBR. |
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Posted: 9/10/2009 3:08:45 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
According to the search warrant, filed in court in May 2008 and obtained by The Associated Press Tuesday, Shipley sold the .50-caliber rifle to Luis Armando Rodriguez, a former El Paso County deputy sheriff convicted last year of illegally selling guns, who then sold it to a buyer in Mexico.
So let me get this straight, Shipley sells a gun to a former LEO and that former LEO sells the same gun to a Mexican drug dealer, but it is Shipley's fault that the Mexican drug dealer had the gun? What a bunch of BS! Why not charge the jackass who knowlingly sold the gun to the Mexican drug dealer and leave the FBI agent who legally sold the gun to the former LEO alone? This is a bad precedent. If you have ever sold a gun legally in an FTF sale then you better make sure they never sell it. If someone down the line sells the gun to a criminal then I guess it's your fault now. Welcome to Obama's America! Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile A big +1 - The charges against Shipley are complete BS. One would think that selling to a LEO = legal and safe. You can't control what happens to anything you sell (car, gun, house) once it's out of your possession. Shipley is getting screwed because of all the BS regarding US guns going over the border. They actually found 1 that made it over and are hanging him out to dry to make a statement. Mike |
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Posted: 9/10/2009 3:10:02 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
You can sell however many you want, but what you cannot do is fill out 4473s for guns one week and the next sell them for a 10% mark-up. If a reasonable person would conclude you intended to deal in firearms for profit, you will go to jail.
So this raises a good question. How many firearms can you sell in a year before you are considered a dealer? I hope it's a number larger than one. Kharn |
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Posted: 9/10/2009 3:11:58 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
So this raises a good question. How many firearms can you sell in a year before you are considered a dealer? I hope it's a number larger than one. It's not really about the number. If you are selling 3 .50 cal rifles to the same guy, and the ATF is able to show that each time after he sold one that he bought another one, that's an indication that he's acting as a dealer, not to enhance his personal collection. If on the other hand, he had 3 rifles and decided to sell them, the ATF probably doesn't have much of a case. The articles also suggest that he was selling on the internet, and depending on the wording of his ads, he could easily have incriminated himself as being in the business of selling firearms. |
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Posted: 9/10/2009 3:18:41 PM EDT
[#15]
Fucked situation and fucked thread.
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Posted: 9/10/2009 3:19:38 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
I know this guy Do you know of him of know him like your related to him and just who are you talking? Anything else you would llike to add? Shit, I know a lot of people. |
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Posted: 9/10/2009 3:22:58 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
According to the search warrant, filed in court in May 2008 and obtained by The Associated Press Tuesday, Shipley sold the .50-caliber rifle to Luis Armando Rodriguez, a former El Paso County deputy sheriff convicted last year of illegally selling guns, who then sold it to a buyer in Mexico.
So let me get this straight, Shipley sells a gun to a former LEO and that former LEO sells the same gun to a Mexican drug dealer, but it is Shipley's fault that the Mexican drug dealer had the gun? What a bunch of BS! Why not charge the jackass who knowlingly sold the gun to the Mexican drug dealer and leave the FBI agent who legally sold the gun to the former LEO alone? This is a bad precedent. If you have ever sold a gun legally in an FTF sale then you better make sure they never sell it. If someone down the line sells the gun to a criminal then I guess it's your fault now. Welcome to Obama's America! Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Damn, no telling how many I have sold/traded over the years. 4473 is registration. |
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Posted: 9/10/2009 3:51:16 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
According to the search warrant, filed in court in May 2008 and obtained by The Associated Press Tuesday, Shipley sold the .50-caliber rifle to Luis Armando Rodriguez, a former El Paso County deputy sheriff convicted last year of illegally selling guns, who then sold it to a buyer in Mexico.
So let me get this straight, Shipley sells a gun to a former LEO and that former LEO sells the same gun to a Mexican drug dealer, but it is Shipley's fault that the Mexican drug dealer had the gun? What a bunch of BS! Why not charge the jackass who knowlingly sold the gun to the Mexican drug dealer and leave the FBI agent who legally sold the gun to the former LEO alone? This is a bad precedent. If you have ever sold a gun legally in an FTF sale then you better make sure they never sell it. If someone down the line sells the gun to a criminal then I guess it's your fault now. Welcome to Obama's America! Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Damn, no telling how many I have sold/traded over the years. 4473 is registration. Yep. Very true. If he was buying then reselling at a profit on a regular basis [even 1 or 2 a month] then he might very well be screwed. If he was buying one week and posting it for sale the next week then he's toast if they really want him. Buying the same type of firearm several times then selling it on in a recognised pattern when you don't even use it is not smart and can hardly be construed as selling from your personal collection. Most people here sell firearms on occasion, buying 10 receivers, and selling them all is a red flag to the ATF and we all know it. Selling one and replacing it with another that suits your wants [higher end, different configuration or caliber, better features, ect or collecting and changing some weapons on occasion isn't. If he is innocent then he had better get a good lawyer. Not going to cut him any more slack then the next guy simply because he had a badge, and truthfully, no one else should either. |
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Posted: 9/10/2009 4:59:51 PM EDT
[#19]
I'd like to see him win.
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Posted: 9/10/2009 5:29:52 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: "As I understand it, the rule is you are a firearms dealer and subject to regulation if you sell regularly and with the primary purpose of earning a living. This guy bought/sold an average of about 1.3 guns per month, hardly enough to make a living." You sell a rifle a month for $8300.00 to $11000.00 each and do that for a year and yes I think you are going to make a pretty good living. Don't tell me as a FED he didn't have access to information that the scumbag deputy he sold the .50 cals to wasn't dirty. In my eyes that makes him dirty as well. We gun owners have enough trouble with the sheep, we don't need the LE community adding to it. No way. I mean, if you stole the rifles, yes. But if you bought them at retail, no way. I know my share of local gun dealers, and their margin on guns is tiny even though they get the reseller's discount. They make their money on accessories. If there are any gun dealers here, maybe they can either back that up or refute it with some actual numbers, but the guys I know tell me that selling 1.3 rifles per month will qualify you for food stamps. |
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Posted: 9/10/2009 5:43:51 PM EDT
[#21]
The 2nd amendment is an individual right to keep and bear arms.
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Posted: 9/10/2009 7:43:20 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
"As I understand it, the rule is you are a firearms dealer and subject to regulation if you sell regularly and with the primary purpose of earning a living. This guy bought/sold an average of about 1.3 guns per month, hardly enough to make a living." You sell a rifle a month for $8300.00 to $11000.00 each and do that for a year and yes I think you are going to make a pretty good living. Don't tell me as a FED he didn't have access to information that the scumbag deputy he sold the .50 cals to wasn't dirty. In my eyes that makes him dirty as well. We gun owners have enough trouble with the sheep, we don't need the LE community adding to it. Unless the FBI agent was directly involved in an investigation of the sheriff's deputy, he would be BREAKING THE LAW to use FBI computer resources to conduct a background check on someone for personal purposes. Yes, some cops do it, but some cops also go to jail when they get caught doing it. |
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Posted: 9/10/2009 7:47:07 PM EDT
[#23]
well good. part of all "cop" training should be go to prison for a month.
not saying you gotta go with everyone knowing you are a cop. it can be on the 'sly' guess he will be highly trained. he must have pissed in some ones cheerios. |
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Posted: 9/10/2009 7:59:05 PM EDT
[#24]
Let me get this straight.
A Fed. sells to a cop, who sells to a Mexican 'Authority', who sells or turns the weapon over to a mexican drug gang, and somehow it is all the Feds fault that the gun got used in a drug war????, There has to be a whole bunch more to this story than is being let out. |
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Posted: 9/10/2009 8:14:22 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
EL PASO, Texas — A high-powered rifle allegedly sold illegally by an El Paso FBI agent was used in a deadly Mexican drug cartel shootout last year, court records show. According to a 2008 search warrant, agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives linked a .50-caliber rifle sold by FBI agent John T. Shipley to a March 2008 shootout between drug cartel fighters and Mexican army soldiers. An army captain and six cartel members were killed in the nearly three-hour shootout in Chihuahua, agents said in the warrant. quote] I knew there had to be more to it than the OP's story. A friend of mine with an extensive collection(approx. 425) was "noticed" at a local gun dealer's facility when his name kept showing up on 4473s during a compliance check with the dealer. ATF found out he sold at gun shows, essentially to make his collection nearly self funding. ATF showed up at his door, told him it would be "in his best interest" to stop with the gunshow tables without an FFL. Situation over. Even his dog is OK(beautiful, protective GSD). |
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Posted: 9/11/2009 12:41:27 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Who the fuck cares what he did for a living,the point is if this guy goes down on this stupid charge it could be anyone else who sells guns whenever the law decides they feel like going after you. Some times gun owners surprise me. True - on its face anyway. |
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Posted: 9/11/2009 12:44:38 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
well good. part of all "cop" training should be go to prison for a month. not saying you gotta go with everyone knowing you are a cop. it can be on the 'sly' guess he will be highly trained. he must have pissed in some ones cheerios. And thos who write obits should be buried for a week - you know, so they get the experience
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Posted: 9/11/2009 12:45:04 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Let me get this straight. A Fed. sells to a cop, who sells to a Mexican 'Authority', who sells or turns the weapon over to a mexican drug gang, and somehow it is all the Feds fault that the gun got used in a drug war????, There has to be a whole bunch more to this story than is being let out. That's what I'm thinking |
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Posted: 9/11/2009 3:46:24 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
well good. part of all "cop" training should be go to prison for a month. not saying you gotta go with everyone knowing you are a cop. it can be on the 'sly' guess he will be highly trained. he must have pissed in some ones cheerios. Fuck that noise. |
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Posted: 9/11/2009 4:39:42 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
"As I understand it, the rule is you are a firearms dealer and subject to regulation if you sell regularly and with the primary purpose of earning a living. This guy bought/sold an average of about 1.3 guns per month, hardly enough to make a living." You sell a rifle a month for $8300.00 to $11000.00 each and do that for a year and yes I think you are going to make a pretty good living. Don't tell me as a FED he didn't have access to information that the scumbag deputy he sold the .50 cals to wasn't dirty. In my eyes that makes him dirty as well. We gun owners have enough trouble with the sheep, we don't need the LE community adding to it. No way. I mean, if you stole the rifles, yes. But if you bought them at retail, no way. I know my share of local gun dealers, and their margin on guns is tiny even though they get the reseller's discount. They make their money on accessories. If there are any gun dealers here, maybe they can either back that up or refute it with some actual numbers, but the guys I know tell me that selling 1.3 rifles per month will qualify you for food stamps. Shitty business is still business. The false records make me think he was buying and then reselling the guns within a short timespan. Combine that with selling to the same guy, who might have been a convicted felon at he time, and its makes sense that they think he is dealing. |
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Posted: 9/13/2009 4:07:51 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Quoted:
well good. part of all "cop" training should be go to prison for a month. not saying you gotta go with everyone knowing you are a cop. it can be on the 'sly' guess he will be highly trained. he must have pissed in some ones cheerios. Fuck that noise. Yeah - really - I was in Baltimore City Detention Center for 9 months - and I can say without reservaton FUCK THAT NOISE. Of course being a contractor, I got to leave everyday, but still no place I'd want to be stuck for any length of time. |
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Posted: 9/13/2009 4:08:24 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
"As I understand it, the rule is you are a firearms dealer and subject to regulation if you sell regularly and with the primary purpose of earning a living. This guy bought/sold an average of about 1.3 guns per month, hardly enough to make a living." You sell a rifle a month for $8300.00 to $11000.00 each and do that for a year and yes I think you are going to make a pretty good living. Don't tell me as a FED he didn't have access to information that the scumbag deputy he sold the .50 cals to wasn't dirty. In my eyes that makes him dirty as well. We gun owners have enough trouble with the sheep, we don't need the LE community adding to it. No way. I mean, if you stole the rifles, yes. But if you bought them at retail, no way. I know my share of local gun dealers, and their margin on guns is tiny even though they get the reseller's discount. They make their money on accessories. If there are any gun dealers here, maybe they can either back that up or refute it with some actual numbers, but the guys I know tell me that selling 1.3 rifles per month will qualify you for food stamps. Shitty business is still business. The false records make me think he was buying and then reselling the guns within a short timespan. Combine that with selling to the same guy, who might have been a convicted felon at he time, and its makes sense that they think he is dealing. The only thing I am sure of is we don't have all the facts. |
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Posted: 9/13/2009 7:19:28 AM EDT
[#33]
humm, i know one thing the FBI and ATF don't exactly love each other...lol
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Posted: 9/13/2009 7:30:05 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
If he hasn't done anything illegal, then he has nothing to fear, right? Why do people always say this.... It is not accurate, especially where the fed is concerned....... |
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Posted: 9/13/2009 8:02:35 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
So,,,,,,,, everyone who bought and sold these firearms are guilty of something????? who is the victim of these terrible crimes????????
the guy in mexico who may have used one of the firearms in a murder, may be guilty of murder, but that's for the Mexicans to decide. so what if the guy sold some firearms - how is he responsible for the actions of others? Fall guy so that the Obama administration can say they are doing something about the illegal weapons crossing the border. I promise you that there are politics behind this one, pure and simple. |
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Posted: 9/13/2009 8:05:10 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
One of the guns he was traced to was used by a Cartel in Chihuahua Mexico. That is why they are going after him. Ahhhhh, the penny drops. He sold the firearm to an El Paso LEO....... |
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Posted: 9/13/2009 8:09:20 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Welcome to Obama's America! The CavArms incident took place under and during the Bush administration. Fuck oblama, but the ATF has been out of control since long before we even heard oblama's name. Fuck the ATF, one day people will stand trial for their crimes and abuses. One day... it'll come. F-Troop has been out of control from practically day 1. |
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Posted: 9/13/2009 8:20:27 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
The 2nd amendment is an individual right to keep and bear arms. Yes, and when GCA-1967 started anyone could get an FFL for $1. See how this goes? |
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Posted: 9/13/2009 8:42:52 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
well good. part of all "cop" training should be go to prison for a month. not saying you gotta go with everyone knowing you are a cop. it can be on the 'sly' guess he will be highly trained. he must have pissed in some ones cheerios. Fuck that noise. Yeah - really - I was in Baltimore City Detention Center for 9 months - and I can say without reservaton FUCK THAT NOISE. Of course being a contractor, I got to leave everyday, but still no place I'd want to be stuck for any length of time. Yep, was at Baltimore City Correctional Center (the one just down the street) for a little while doing service calls on their boiler. You work beside the inmates, it's a little freaky, although not nearly as freaky as when you're sitting outside the gate in your truck. That housing complex is scary. I'm gonna bookmark this for when more information comes out. |
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