Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel

Log In

A valid email is required.
Password is required.
Pok Gai 1.0
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined Apr 2003
  • Posts 16212
  • EE 100% (23)
USA OH, USA
Posted: 8/30/2009 5:53:15 PM EST
is there one advantage over the other when installing a flash hider, or is if even necessary if i am not worried about indexing my FH?
كافر
Wider is better...
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined Mar 2001
  • Posts 18007
  • EE 100% (78)
USA MS, USA
Link Posted: 8/30/2009 5:57:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By armoredsaint:
is there one advantage over the other when installing a flash hider, or is if even necessary if i am not worried about indexing my FH?


If you're not worried about indexing, use a split washer.

A crush washer is good if you need to index.

I've never needed a shim and crush washers work better than peel washers in my experience.
The most perfidious way of harming a cause consists of defending it deliberately with faulty arguments. -Friedrich Nietzsche
Wider is better...
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined Mar 2001
  • Posts 18008
  • EE 100% (78)
USA MS, USA
Link Posted: 8/30/2009 5:57:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2009 5:57:30 PM EST by Cypher214]
doubled
The most perfidious way of harming a cause consists of defending it deliberately with faulty arguments. -Friedrich Nietzsche
Pok Gai 1.0
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined Apr 2003
  • Posts 16215
  • EE 100% (23)
USA OH, USA
Link Posted: 8/30/2009 6:21:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
Originally Posted By armoredsaint:
is there one advantage over the other when installing a flash hider, or is if even necessary if i am not worried about indexing my FH?


If you're not worried about indexing, use a split washer.

A crush washer is good if you need to index.

I've never needed a shim and crush washers work better than peel washers in my experience.

how come on the instructions for a gemtech halo suppressor - they recommend removing the crush washer and replacing it with a peel washer? is a peel washer thinner?
كافر
Grand Poobah
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined Aug 2002
  • Posts 13984
  • EE 100% (8)
USA PA, USA
Link Posted: 8/30/2009 6:30:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2009 6:31:25 PM EST by piccolo]
Originally Posted By armoredsaint:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
Originally Posted By armoredsaint:
is there one advantage over the other when installing a flash hider, or is if even necessary if i am not worried about indexing my FH?


If you're not worried about indexing, use a split washer.

A crush washer is good if you need to index.

I've never needed a shim and crush washers work better than peel washers in my experience.

how come on the instructions for a gemtech halo suppressor - they recommend removing the crush washer and replacing it with a peel washer? is a peel washer thinner?


A peel washer is something you peel apart to get a certain thickness.

At Perry, the armorers there are picky about how much torque is needed to hold a flash hider on, as it effects barrel harmonics.

You can peel a peel washer down to thickness to achieve that.




ETA: At Perry, tack driving accuracy is the name of the game. Just about anywhere else MO Bad guy is close enough.
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
----------------------------------------

Vote "YES" on 'NO'!

For Captain Erick Foster, Wexford, PA KIA 29 Aug, 07.
Rangers lead the way.
Basic
Offline
  • Joined Jan 2005
  • Posts 4232
  • EE 100% (58)
USA ID, USA
Link Posted: 8/30/2009 6:42:50 PM EST
WAG wouldn't a peel give more room for how a halo mouints, the crush would be in the way

Veteran of Reagan Era
Avatar
Gold
Offline
  • Joined Jan 2001
  • Posts 41528
  • EE 100% (1)
USA USA
Link Posted: 8/30/2009 6:56:38 PM EST
The ONLY reason the peel washer was abandoned in favor of the crush was install time. With a crush, it is just torque to index. With the peel, it is torque, then remove, peel, reinstall and check, repeating until it is indexed.

If you like removing the FH for cleaning or don't want all that detrimental torque on the end of the barrel, get a peel.
Quantum Mechanical Engineer

Ars sine scientia nihil est
Member
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined Mar 2003
  • Posts 463
  • EE 100% (63)
USA TX, USA
Link Posted: 8/30/2009 8:15:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By luckypunk:
WAG wouldn't a peel give more room for how a halo mouints, the crush would be in the way


My understanding of this was not so much being in the way, but a better chance of making the flash suppressor concentric to the bore. Crush washers being indexed by torque and all, apparently they can be unevenly installed, canting the flash suppressor just a bit, enough to run the risks of a baffle strike. At least that's how it was explained to me.

I'm not afraid to admit it took me 2 hours to figure out how to do a peel washer the first time. Down to 5 minutes now. I recently swapped my crushes for peels as I'm waiting on a Halo to transfer to me.

Pok Gai 1.0
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined Apr 2003
  • Posts 16217
  • EE 100% (23)
USA OH, USA
Link Posted: 8/30/2009 8:27:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2009 8:29:08 PM EST by armoredsaint]
wow, thank you everyone - it seems like there is a technique in putting on a peel vs crush.

i found a pic of the peel, but how does it "peel" - how many layers are there, any rule of thumb for colt barrels especially?


كافر
We must find a solution to this Obamanation
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined Feb 2005
  • Posts 2922
  • EE 100% (17)
USA TN, USA
Link Posted: 8/30/2009 8:48:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By armoredsaint:
wow, thank you everyone - it seems like there is a technique in putting on a peel vs crush.

i found a pic of the peel, but how does it "peel" - how many layers are there, any rule of thumb for colt barrels especially?

http://usarmorment.com/images/medium/Peel_Washer_MED.jpg


Get an old razor blade and take off layers until the FH indexes properly. Some people heat them up with a cigarette lighter too just to make it easier.

Each barrel is different because the threads aren't timed and I have no idea how many peels there are. I don't happen to have one here, sorry.
May God help us all in the years to come. Thats if we run out of ammo first.
Member
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined Mar 2003
  • Posts 464
  • EE 100% (63)
USA TX, USA
Link Posted: 8/30/2009 8:57:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By bloodsport2885:
Originally Posted By armoredsaint:
wow, thank you everyone - it seems like there is a technique in putting on a peel vs crush.

i found a pic of the peel, but how does it "peel" - how many layers are there, any rule of thumb for colt barrels especially?

http://usarmorment.com/images/medium/Peel_Washer_MED.jpg


Get an old razor blade and take off layers until the FH indexes properly. Some people heat them up with a cigarette lighter too just to make it easier.

Each barrel is different because the threads aren't timed and I have no idea how many peels there are. I don't happen to have one here, sorry.


A grill lighter, pliers, and razor worked best for me. Cigarette lighter was like setting my thumbs on fire.

Each peel is around 10-20% of a full rotation around the barrel. Start off with the entire washer on the barrel, thread the flash suppressor on and see where you are. Estimate the 10-20% chunks you need, plus a little bit for torque. The torque from hand tight to "gentle" wrench tight was about 25-50% of a rotation. First one might take a while to get the hang of.

They may not time 100% exact, but you can judge what is "good enough" for your uses.

The Breakfast Pirate
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined Sep 2004
  • Posts 12150
  • EE 100% (57)
USA OR, USA
Link Posted: 8/30/2009 9:00:46 PM EST
Peels/shims are nice if you remove your timed F/H once and a while.

Crush are technically a one-time use item.


*I like the KAC style shims the best.*
"No need to thank me - I'm just a guy with a gun"
Pok Gai 1.0
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined Apr 2003
  • Posts 16218
  • EE 100% (23)
USA OH, USA
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 5:51:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Findsman:
Originally Posted By bloodsport2885:
Originally Posted By armoredsaint:
wow, thank you everyone - it seems like there is a technique in putting on a peel vs crush.

i found a pic of the peel, but how does it "peel" - how many layers are there, any rule of thumb for colt barrels especially?

http://usarmorment.com/images/medium/Peel_Washer_MED.jpg


Get an old razor blade and take off layers until the FH indexes properly. Some people heat them up with a cigarette lighter too just to make it easier.

Each barrel is different because the threads aren't timed and I have no idea how many peels there are. I don't happen to have one here, sorry.


A grill lighter, pliers, and razor worked best for me. Cigarette lighter was like setting my thumbs on fire.

Each peel is around 10-20% of a full rotation around the barrel. Start off with the entire washer on the barrel, thread the flash suppressor on and see where you are. Estimate the 10-20% chunks you need, plus a little bit for torque. The torque from hand tight to "gentle" wrench tight was about 25-50% of a rotation. First one might take a while to get the hang of.

They may not time 100% exact, but you can judge what is "good enough" for your uses.
so i assume peel washer is a trial and error thing and how tight is tight? 15-20 lb-ft?

كافر
Basic
Offline
  • Joined Jan 2004
  • Posts 3451
  • EE 0% (0)
USA MA, USA
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 5:55:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By armoredsaint:

Originally Posted By Findsman:
Originally Posted By bloodsport2885:
Originally Posted By armoredsaint:
wow, thank you everyone - it seems like there is a technique in putting on a peel vs crush.

i found a pic of the peel, but how does it "peel" - how many layers are there, any rule of thumb for colt barrels especially?

http://usarmorment.com/images/medium/Peel_Washer_MED.jpg


Get an old razor blade and take off layers until the FH indexes properly. Some people heat them up with a cigarette lighter too just to make it easier.

Each barrel is different because the threads aren't timed and I have no idea how many peels there are. I don't happen to have one here, sorry.


A grill lighter, pliers, and razor worked best for me. Cigarette lighter was like setting my thumbs on fire.

Each peel is around 10-20% of a full rotation around the barrel. Start off with the entire washer on the barrel, thread the flash suppressor on and see where you are. Estimate the 10-20% chunks you need, plus a little bit for torque. The torque from hand tight to "gentle" wrench tight was about 25-50% of a rotation. First one might take a while to get the hang of.

They may not time 100% exact, but you can judge what is "good enough" for your uses.
so i assume peel washer is a trial and error thing and how tight is tight? 15-20 lb-ft?



Yep, torque the muzzle device on, if it doesn't line up, take it off and guess how much you need to remove. You can do some math and figure it out that way too.

Pok Gai 1.0
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined Apr 2003
  • Posts 16221
  • EE 100% (23)
USA OH, USA
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 8:48:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By FunYun1983:
Originally Posted By armoredsaint:

Originally Posted By Findsman:
Originally Posted By bloodsport2885:
Originally Posted By armoredsaint:
wow, thank you everyone - it seems like there is a technique in putting on a peel vs crush.

i found a pic of the peel, but how does it "peel" - how many layers are there, any rule of thumb for colt barrels especially?

http://usarmorment.com/images/medium/Peel_Washer_MED.jpg


Get an old razor blade and take off layers until the FH indexes properly. Some people heat them up with a cigarette lighter too just to make it easier.

Each barrel is different because the threads aren't timed and I have no idea how many peels there are. I don't happen to have one here, sorry.


A grill lighter, pliers, and razor worked best for me. Cigarette lighter was like setting my thumbs on fire.

Each peel is around 10-20% of a full rotation around the barrel. Start off with the entire washer on the barrel, thread the flash suppressor on and see where you are. Estimate the 10-20% chunks you need, plus a little bit for torque. The torque from hand tight to "gentle" wrench tight was about 25-50% of a rotation. First one might take a while to get the hang of.

They may not time 100% exact, but you can judge what is "good enough" for your uses.
so i assume peel washer is a trial and error thing and how tight is tight? 15-20 lb-ft?



Yep, torque the muzzle device on, if it doesn't line up, take it off and guess how much you need to remove. You can do some math and figure it out that way too.

wouldn't it be better to use a shim since you only use what you need instead of removing it piece by piece like a peel?
كافر
Basic
Offline
  • Joined Dec 2001
  • Posts 3072
  • EE 100% (38)
USA WA, USA
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 9:41:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By armoredsaint:
how come on the instructions for a gemtech halo suppressor - they recommend removing the crush washer and replacing it with a peel washer? is a peel washer thinner?


A crush washer can crush unevenly, leading to misalignment of the suppressor, leading to baffle strikes. <–– BAD

A peel washer will be of an even thickness all the way around, so the flash hider will be properly aligned, therefore the suppressor should be properly aligned. <–– GOOD

Pok Gai 1.0
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined Apr 2003
  • Posts 16230
  • EE 100% (23)
USA OH, USA
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 12:37:07 PM EST
i'm starting to think that shims are the better choice, since i am starting out with less and then build up the material?
كافر
Thread.CurrentThread.Abort();
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined May 2001
  • Posts 12411
  • EE 100% (20)
USA TX, USA
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 12:39:54 PM EST
WOAH now - what's this bullshit? A legitimate firearms question in GD?

There are, however, rules against addressing someone as "fuckface". - John_Wayne777
Patriot Rifleman in Training
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined Mar 2006
  • Posts 3160
  • EE 100% (7)
USA IA, USA
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 12:55:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By peekay:
WOAH now - what's this bullshit? A legitimate firearms question in GD?



This is my tag - I was also thinking this is one of the most useful threads I've read in GD in some time!
Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts. - Albert Einstein
I'm lying. ;p
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined Nov 2008
  • Posts 608
  • EE 100% (36)
USA NE, USA
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 1:21:01 PM EST
I've heard that when crush washers heat up from firing, they allow the flash hider (with the can on) to drop enough to cause baffle strikes.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?
Veteran of Reagan Era
Avatar
Gold
Offline
  • Joined Jan 2001
  • Posts 41542
  • EE 100% (1)
USA USA
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 1:49:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By armoredsaint:
i'm starting to think that shims are the better choice, since i am starting out with less and then build up the material?

Where are you going to get them?

Now with a peel washer, saving the peeled sections gives you SHIMS!


Quantum Mechanical Engineer

Ars sine scientia nihil est
Pok Gai 1.0
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined Apr 2003
  • Posts 16236
  • EE 100% (23)
USA OH, USA
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 3:08:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By KwaiChangCaine:
Originally Posted By peekay:
WOAH now - what's this bullshit? A legitimate firearms question in GD?



This is my tag - I was also thinking this is one of the most useful threads I've read in GD in some time!

this is my first serious question in 16k post
كافر
Pok Gai 1.0
Avatar
Bronze
Offline
  • Joined Apr 2003
  • Posts 16237
  • EE 100% (23)
USA OH, USA
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 3:09:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By armoredsaint:
i'm starting to think that shims are the better choice, since i am starting out with less and then build up the material?

Where are you going to get them?

Now with a peel washer, saving the peeled sections gives you SHIMS!



don't places like brownells, midway etc sell them? or even my local gunsmith for shims? i called AAC just to double check and they definitely know their shit.
كافر
Top