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chrism101
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Posted: 8/21/2009 9:15:10 AM
[Last Edit: 8/21/2009 9:16:13 AM by chrism101]
August 21, 2009: The Russian Air Force has ordered another 64 jet fighters from Sukhoi, for $2.5 billion. Most (48) of these will be the Su-35, and all will be delivered within six years. The other aircraft are twelve Su-27SMs and four Su-30M2 fighter bombers. These sixteen aircraft will be delivered within two years. All of these aircraft are variations on the Cold War era Su-27, which was built to deal with the U.S. F-15.

The Su-35 is the most advanced of these Su-27 designs, sometimes referred as the F-22ski. Four months ago, one of the two prototypes of the Su-35s crashed on takeoff. The cause was a problem with one of the two engines. A third prototype is under construction. Russia had hoped to have the destroyed prototype fly over the May Day parade in Moscow on May 1st. The crash was really bad PR, since one of the consistent shortcomings of Russian warplanes has been the unreliable engines. But the project is moving forward, and Russia expects to export over 160 Su-35s in the next five years, and eventually have more Su-35s in service than the U.S. has F-22s.

It was a year ago that the Su-35 had its first flight. In late 2007, the Russian Air Force showed off the first of two flyable prototypes. It was just three years ago, that Russia announced its long promised Su-35 fighter, was back in development again, after having been stalled for over six years because of cash shortages.

The Su-35 is an enhanced Su-30 (itself a development of the Cold War era Su-27), and has been in development since the 1990s. At one point, it was called the Su-37, but the name was changed back to Su-35. Since the 1990s, time, many Su-35 prototypes were built, and apparently no two were identical. There were many disagreements over what direction the development should take, and by the late 1990s, the project was basically suspended for lack of funding.

The Russians want to sell Su-35s to China, India and other foreign customers, and this opportunity turned the cash flow back on. Apparently Russia now has the billions of dollars it will take to carry out the Su-35 development program. India has become a partner, contributing cash, technology and manufacturing capability.

The Su-35 is a 34 ton fighter that is more maneuverable than the original, 33 ton, Su-27, and has much better electronics. It can cruise at above the speed of sound. It also costs at least fifty percent more than the Su-27. That would be some $60 million (for a barebones model), about what a top-of-the-line F-16 costs. The Su-27 was originally developed to match the F-15, which is larger than the single engine F-16. The larger size of the Su-27/35, allows designers to do a lot more with it in terms of modifications and enhancements.

The Su-35 is to have some stealth capabilities (or at least be less detectable to most fighter aircraft radars). Russia is promising a fighter with a life of 6,000 flight hours, and engines good for 4,000 hours. Russia promises world-class avionics, plus a very pilot-friendly cockpit. The use of many thrusters and fly-by-wire will produce an aircraft even more maneuverable than earlier Su-30s (which have been extremely agile).

The Su-35 is not meant to be a direct rival for the F-22, because the Russian aircraft is not nearly as stealthy. The Su-35 will carry a 30mm autocannon (with 150 rounds) and up to eight tons of munitions, hanging from 12 hard points. This reduces stealthiness, which the F-22 and F-35 get around by using an internal bay for bombs and missiles. But if the maneuverability and advanced electronics of the proposed Su-35 live up to the promises, the aircraft would be more than a match for every fighter out there except the F-22. If such an Su-35 was sold for well under $100 million each, there would be a lot of buyers.
.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Ok now read the last sentence again.... are you with me, it says except the F-22 ... which is why we need more, and that they are proposing that these can and will nock down F-35's.
Even though they have no possibility of stealth with under wing hardpoint attachments.
nissanfan84
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Posted: 8/21/2009 9:17:29 AM
tl;dr just send a SEAL team to blow em up and make it look like an accident.
Chairborne
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Posted: 8/21/2009 9:20:02 AM
The Sukhoi PAK-FA is the "Russian F-22", not a warmed over, warmed over, SU-27. The SU-35 would last about as long as it took the AIM-120D to fly to it against an F-22.
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. -Friedrich Nietzsche
chrism101
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Posted: 8/21/2009 9:20:56 AM
[Last Edit: 8/21/2009 9:28:03 AM by chrism101]




chrism101
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Posted: 8/21/2009 9:23:17 AM
[Last Edit: 8/21/2009 9:24:57 AM by chrism101]
Originally Posted By Chairborne:
The Sukhoi PAK-FA is the "Russian F-22", not a warmed over, warmed over, SU-27. The SU-35 would last about as long as it took the AIM-120D to fly to it against an F-22.


Yep, but the PAK-FA is a Paper tiger, it doesn't exist and in current economy it won't exist.

this is the PAK-FA at this point;

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Posted: 8/21/2009 9:24:08 AM
Originally Posted By chrism101:


The Su-35 is not meant to be a direct rival for the F-22, because the Russian aircraft is not nearly as stealthy. The Su-35 will carry a 30mm autocannon (with 150 rounds) and up to eight tons of munitions, hanging from 12 hard points. This reduces stealthiness, which the F-22 and F-35 get around by using an internal bay for bombs and missiles. But if the maneuverability and advanced electronics of the proposed Su-35 live up to the promises, the aircraft would be more than a match for every fighter out there except the F-22. If such an Su-35 was sold for well under $100 million each, there would be a lot of buyers.
.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Ok now read the last sentence again.... are you with me, it says except the F-22 ... which is why we need more, and that they are proposing that these can and will nock down F-35's.
Even though they have no possibility of stealth with under wing hardpoint attachments.


Stealthy is not the same as 'stealth'. The 'Stealth Fighter' was a trick plane, with one purpose: sneak through anti-air screening to drop bombs on Soviets. More modern jets use elements of stealth tech to get some of the benefits of smaller radar signatures, but will never be 'Stealth'.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 9:33:09 AM
[Last Edit: 8/21/2009 9:40:22 AM by chrism101]
Russia’s SU-35: Mystery Fighter No More
20-Aug-2009 15:03 EDT

Related Stories: Contracts - Awards, Fighters & Attack, New Systems Tech, Other Corporation, Partnerships & Consortia, Russia, Testing & Evaluation, Thales

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SU-35 flight test, 2009
As one of our readers noted, DID’s articles from 2005-2007 seem to describe 2 different SU-35s. One is a mid-life modernized SU-27 Flanker, but there’s also much more re-engineered “SU-35” variant with canards, thrust vectoring, etc. has been confused with (and possibly redesignated between) the SU-37. So… what do we mean by “SU-35”?

This article explains the sources of the widespread confusion regarding the SU-35’s layout and key characteristics, reviews what is now known about the platform, and tracks its development. Those developments are likely to have broad consequences. The aircraft has a home customer in the Russian Air Force, and the SU-35 is being positioned to succeed most SU-30MK variants as Russia’s fighter export of choice within the coming decade.

The latest news involves additional details regarding the SU-35’s initial multi-year Russian production order, and discussion of the aircraft’s export prospects…


SU-35 ?
Until very recently, only KnAAPO has listed the SU-35 as a product on its site; Sukhoi now does so as well, but Irkut does not. If this seems confusing, it’s because Sukhoi subcontracts production to affiliate firms – IAIA (Irkut) and KnAAPO (Komsomolosk un Amur). Each has their own intellectual property, and their own interests. In addition, the designation “SU-35” has been used in several different contexts over the years. It has been referred to, and even photographed, in ways that referred to both mid-life Flanker upgrades and canard-equipped next-generation aircraft. KnAAPO’s site added the confusion by showing SU-35 pictures on its type page and gallery that display the aircraft both with and without canard foreplanes. The Rosoboronexport catalog picture was unclear.

The current “SU-35”, which has been definitively described by Sukhoi, appears to be something of a compromise between the upgrade and full redesign visions. Reader assistance and sources from Sukhoi and various media offer an outline of its key systems and characteristics:


SU-35 flight, 2008
”...(known as Su-35BM by some sources- ie. T-10BM to the original Su-27s internal T-10S designation). Differences and features largely speak for themselves in the video, but a short summary follows as related in various other sources follows:

1 – N035 Irbis-E PESA Radar, a follow-on to the Bars-M.
2 – No canards
3 – Rear-looking self-defence radar in shorter tail sting
4 – AL-37FU/ 117S thrust-vectoring turbofan engines rated at 142-147kN
5 – Extended high-lift devices with large flaperon occuping the full trailing edge of the wing
6 – L175M Khibiny-M electronic-warfare self-defence system
7 – Reduced-area empennage
8 – Larger Air Intakes
9 – New and lighter systems, including quadruple digital fly-by-wire flight-control system.
10- New man-machine interface with fully-glass cockpit with two large LCD screens and helmet mounted display.”


Movable nozzles
Pictures and promotional materials show full 360 degree thrust vectoring capabilities for the engines, and the radar is also worthy of note. It couples an electronically-scanned array with a 2-step electro-hydraulic drive unit , which creates a maximum radar beam deflection angle of 120 degrees. The Irbis-E radar can reportedly detect and tracks up to 30 air targets, simultaneously engaging up to 8. It can also reportedly detect, choose and track up to 4 ground targets at a range of up to 400 km, but resolutions are unspecified.

Sukhoi says that the fighter’s structures have been reinforced because of the increased takeoff and landing weight of the aircraft, and the front bearing has 2 wheels for the same reason.

The SU-30 family has never been an especially stealthy aircraft, and its overall airframe design limits what one can accomplish in this area. Nevertheless, Sukhoi cites an unspecified amount of “reduced reflectance” for the SU-35 in the X-band, which is a popular choice for modern radars, and in the angle range of plus or minus 60 degrees.

SU-35: Export Prospects


Flanker customers
The SU27/30 Flanker family was designed and built after American had completed its “teen series” (F-14/15/16/18) fighters, and uses lessons from those designs as well as Russia’s own approaches. The result was a very extensible design that boasted impressive performance, and quickly became the global fighter reference point among global military planners. Exports followed, and Flanker variants quickly surpassed the MiG-29 as Russia’s most popular export fighter.

The SU-35 aims to build on that legacy, as a final bridge to the 5th generation PAK-FA. Three key changes to Sukhoi’s circumstances may make a similar level of export success much more difficult.

1. A globalized market.

When it was first introduced, the S-27 family was the main global competitor to any western offerings, and was sold to countries whose ties and access to western technologies were weak. An array of SU-27s gifted to breakaway Soviet satellites by virtue of being located on their territory, but India and China were its real anchor export customers. Now, SU-35 exports can expect to compete on 2 fronts. On the one hand, a less ballkanized global market means that it must compete globally with western offerings that include upgraded American “teen series” fighters; and matured 4+ generation European designs that include Saab’s JAS-39 Gripen, France’s Rafale, and EADS’ Eurofighter. On the other end, it will be competing with Chinese offerings, including the J-11 that Russia correctly accuses China of copying/deriving from the SU-27, the smaller and less expensive 4+ generation J-10, and even the joint Chinese/Pakistani FC-17.


Chinese J-10
2. The China factor

China has a large inventory of SU-30MKKs, and is also pressing ahead with its J-11, which substitutes Chinese electronics, radars, and engines in an SU-27 family airframe. Russia is very upset by this theft of its intellectual property, which has reportedly hindered sales of its carrier-capable SU-33 variant into the Chinese market. The J-11 is likely to serve as a similar but less capable international export competitor, while serving as a barrier to further Chinese sales on both sides of the table. Prospects may improve if Russia fields the PAK-FA and China has difficulty with its J-XX project, but the J-11 experience can be expected to have lasting effects.

China qustionable status among the roster of future SU-35 customers, and its certain presence as an export competitor, both create more difficult dynamics for SU-35 export success.


IAF SU-30MKI
3. Other decisions by key markets.

With Eastern European countries no longer buying Russian equipment, the Flanker family’s key export markets likely closed, and key emerging markets that have decided to go in different directions, the SU-35’s export potential is likely to be much more limited than its predecessors.

India has fielded, and continues to field, the SU-30MKI, a design that includes locally-built electronics, canard foreplanes, and full thrust vectoring. Malaysia has ordered a less customized SU-30MKM variant that uses Russian and French technologies instead. Both of these designs are highly capable, and comparable to the SU-35. India in particular is unlikely to upgrade, as it continues to produce the SU-30MKI and expects to do so for several more years. That removes a major potential market.

On a similar note, Algeria and Venezuela are inducting less advanced SU-30MK2s, which means that future spending is likely to focus on other military areas – unless SU-35s eventually become the replacement for Algeria’s canceled MiG-29 order.

Elsewhere, South Korea has opted for American F-15Ks instead of the SU-35 or European fighters for its F-X buy, and is taking bids from American and European firms for a future fighter. Saudi Arabia, which has become more receptive to purchases from Russia, bought Eurofighters as the future of their air force. Brazil, which could have significantly expanded Russia’s Latin American penetration, did not shortlist the SU-35 for the final round of its F-X2 future fighter competition.

The Middle East offers limited opportunities for Russian fighters these days, with some potential among long-standing clients in Libya, Syria, and possibly Iran, but competition from France’s Rafale in particular must be expected in Libya. The SU-35 could be useful to other countries in the region, but most are already committed to other suppliers. Success is possible, and it would be important to the platform, but any such win would require a breakthrough. The newly oil-rich countries around Africa’s Gulf of Guinea offer easier opportunities, but sales will face competition from China as well as from the west. Emerging South Asian markets like Indonesia and Vietnam also offer promise, and are less inclined to buy either Chinese or western fighters, but orders from that quarter are likely to be limited.

Overall, the numbers add up far less favorably for the SU-35 than they did for its earlier cousins.

SU-35: Contracts and Key Events


SU-35
Aug 18/09: The Russian government signs the SU-35’s inaugural production contract at the Russian MAKS 2009 air show. The Russian Defense Ministry has reportedly signed a contract with Sukhoi to deliver 48 SU-35s by 2015, plus an interim buy of 12 single-seat SU-27SM and 4 dual-seat SU-30M2 multirole fighters by 2011.

RIA Novosti cites “open sources” that estimate the flyaway cost an SU-35 at about $65 million. This contract shuld be larger, since it’s a new type that must carry the additional costs of training spares stocks, etc. Statements place the contract’s value at “over 80 billion” roubles, where RUB 80 billion is currently about $2.51 billion. The contract follows on the heels of RUB 3.2 billion (about $100 million) in capital injected into Sukhoi, and Vnesheconombank head Vladimir Dmitriyev said the national development bank would grant Sukhoi a 3.5 billion-ruble (about $109 million) loan to start SU-35 production. ITAR-TASS | ITAR-TASS re: loans, contract value | RIA Novosti | RIA Novosti’s Russia Today | domain-b | Flight International |

April 26/09: An Su-35 burst into flames and exploded before take-off at the Komsomolosk-na-Amure Aviation Production Association (KNAAPO) Dzemgi flight test aerodrome. Yevgeniy Frolov, one Sukhoi’s most experienced pilots, managed to eject safely before the aircraft exploded. The crash may jeopardize the SU-35’s expected appearance over Russia’s May Day festivities, and will delay testing. To make matters worse, this 2nd operational aircraft was carrying a new NIIP Irbis-E radar set, which will require some effort to replace. The Weekly Standard adds:

“Su-35 programme representatives told THE WEEKLY STANDARD that the crash was the fault of one of the NPO Saturn 117S engine’s PMC units and not a failure of a fuel pump, as had been previously reported. “One of the engine’s control systems failed and the engine was working at only 93 per cent power,” said the representative.”

March 23/09: KNAAPO announces that the Su-35 has made its 100th flight, during which they conducted final tests of the flight control system. Flight tests began Feb 18/08, and in the second quarter of 2009 another test aircraft is expected to join the current 2-plane fleet.

The firm expects to bring the number of flights up to 150-160 on 3 fighters, allowing them to finish static tests and start the super-maneuverability mode testing with the plane’s thrust-vectoring engines. First deliveries to Russian and foreign customers are still scheduled for 2011.

Oct 2/08: Sukhoi says they have started flight tests of the second SU-35 production fighter. “The addition of the second aircraft to the testing program will speed up its completion and ensure the beginning of deliveries to our customers in 2011.”

Since its demonstration flight on July 7/08, the first production aircraft has made over 40 more test flights. RIA Novosti.

Oct 1/08: Brazil has decided on its 3 finalists: Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Aviation’s Rafale, and Saab/BAE’s JAS-39 Gripen.

EADS Eurofighter, Lockheed Martin’s F-16BR, and Sukhoi’s SU-35 all failed to make the cut. Brazilian FAB release [Portuguese] | Reuters | Boeing release | Gripen International release.


SU-35.
July 9/08: A Sukhoi release says that it has presented the newest SU-35 multi-role to the “Flight Scientific Research Institute named after Gromov in Zhukovsky near Moscow,” where earlier test flights have taken place.

It adds that the SU-35 is one of the priority programs of the new United Aviation Corporation (UAC), resulting from the government’s consolidation of Russia’s aerospace industry, and notes that Russia’s 5th generation PAK-FA fighter project will not be fielded before 2015-2017. In contrast, batch production and deliveries of the SU-35 are promised between 2010-2011. Moscow News | Russian release (English version not yet on web).

March 6/08: Russia test flies SU-35. The first Su-35 prototype made its maiden flight on Feb 18/08, and 2 more aircraft are being prepared for similar tests at an aircraft manufacturing plant in Russia’s Far East. The company expects the jet to enter service with Russia’s military in 2-3 years. RIA Novosti.

Sept 4/07: A subsequent Flight International article may begin to offer clarity re: the platform. It states categorically that the SU-35-1 design, unveiled at Russia’s MAKS 2007 air show, is a single-seat aircraft without canard foreplanes, but with a lighter airframe than the SU-27, enlarged fan and engine inlets, 2 NPO Saturn/Ufa MPO Item 117S engines that reportedly offer thrust vectoring and supercruise performance in clean layout, 2t more fuel, modernized electronics at all levels, a Tikhomirov NIIP Irbis (updated N-011M Bars) passive electronically scanned array radar, 6,000 hour airframe life, and 4,000 hour engine life.

gonyea
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Posted: 8/21/2009 9:35:31 AM
Su-27 was a stolen copy of the F-15 so the Su-35 is an upgraded f-15c

Big deal Israel dropped Su-27s with F-4s not really worried about it

That being said Countries are now catching up to our aircraft capabilities and us not focussing on the next generation of airwarfare will end up putting us behind for the first time since 1944.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 9:40:50 AM
Originally Posted By gonyea:
Su-27 was a stolen copy of the F-15 so the Su-35 is an upgraded f-15c

Big deal Israel dropped Su-27s with F-4s not really worried about it

That being said Countries are now catching up to our aircraft capabilities and us not focussing on the next generation of airwarfare will end up putting us behind for the first time since 1944.



you sure about this?
BRONZ
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Posted: 8/21/2009 9:45:29 AM
As long as our pilots keep getting the training they get, I'm not worried.

Its the pilot not the plane.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 9:48:43 AM

Originally Posted By gonyea:
Su-27 was a stolen copy of the F-15 so the Su-35 is an upgraded f-15c

Big deal Israel dropped Su-27s with F-4s not really worried about it

That being said Countries are now catching up to our aircraft capabilities and us not focussing on the next generation of airwarfare will end up putting us behind for the first time since 1944.

Um,... no.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 9:49:42 AM
I'm sure they'll crash well at the airshow.
chrism101
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Posted: 8/21/2009 9:50:26 AM
Originally Posted By gonyea:
Su-27 was a stolen copy of the F-15 so the Su-35 is an upgraded f-15c

Big deal Israel dropped Su-27s with F-4s not really worried about it

That being said Countries are now catching up to our aircraft capabilities and us not focussing on the next generation of airwarfare will end up putting us behind for the first time since 1944.


What we do Know is it is a Copy of the F-15, It is a High Performance Aircraft, not stealth...
But building these and selling them gives the company capital to re-invest in the PAK-FA which is going to be the true F-22ski.

Our problem with this is that, Russia selling these to countries around the globe will force us to spread our Raptors thin to counter them.
The f-35 is still stealthy yet cannot reach the speeds or maneuverability of these aircraft from what we know.
Can frontal stealth of the F-35 and its superior digital cockpit counter this SU-35 , yes probably... but we dont know how far those will be cut down to under the current administration.
The other problem is when the F-35 will truly be fielded in numbers available to counter the mass production of these SU -35s, which will end up in every corner of the globe if Russia is willing to put a cheap sticker price on them. Hell even Hugo Chavez will probably end up with some.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 9:52:18 AM
If they fly their Su-35s the way they fly their MiG-29s, then we should be okay...



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Posted: 8/21/2009 9:59:34 AM
Originally Posted By BRONZ:
As long as our pilots keep getting the training they get, I'm not worried.

Its the pilot not the plane.


For gun kills yes. But not when the other guy can see you and already has weapons lock on you and your radar isn't picking up anything.
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chrism101
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Posted: 8/21/2009 10:08:35 AM
Originally Posted By Furyataurus:
Originally Posted By BRONZ:
As long as our pilots keep getting the training they get, I'm not worried.

Its the pilot not the plane.


For gun kills yes. But not when the other guy can see you and already has weapons lock on you and your radar isn't picking up anything.



When was the last Air to Air US Gunkill?
Black-Tiger
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Posted: 8/21/2009 10:11:45 AM
[Last Edit: 8/21/2009 10:16:04 AM by Black-Tiger]
Originally Posted By chrism101:
Originally Posted By Furyataurus:
Originally Posted By BRONZ:
As long as our pilots keep getting the training they get, I'm not worried.

Its the pilot not the plane.


For gun kills yes. But not when the other guy can see you and already has weapons lock on you and your radar isn't picking up anything.



When was the last Air to Air US Gunkill?


1991 actuaqlly, a USAF A-10 pilot knocked out an Iraqi helicopter using his 20mm cannon. Pilot could not get a lock on on his A/A missiles, so he switched to guns and vaporized the helicopter, which was an M1-8 Hook transport if my memory serves me right.

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Posted: 8/21/2009 10:14:27 AM
[Last Edit: 8/21/2009 10:15:05 AM by AcidGambit]
Originally Posted By chrism101:
Originally Posted By Furyataurus:
Originally Posted By BRONZ:
As long as our pilots keep getting the training they get, I'm not worried.

Its the pilot not the plane.


For gun kills yes. But not when the other guy can see you and already has weapons lock on you and your radar isn't picking up anything.



When was the last Air to Air US Gunkill?


Desert Storm.

...and the A-10 has a 30mm cannon, NOT a 20mm.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 10:16:38 AM
Originally Posted By AcidGambit:
Originally Posted By chrism101:
Originally Posted By Furyataurus:
Originally Posted By BRONZ:
As long as our pilots keep getting the training they get, I'm not worried.

Its the pilot not the plane.


For gun kills yes. But not when the other guy can see you and already has weapons lock on you and your radar isn't picking up anything.



When was the last Air to Air US Gunkill?


Desert Storm.

...and the A-10 has a 30mm cannon, NOT a 20mm.


True a GAU-8A Avenger 30mm cannon; a slight typo.

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Posted: 8/21/2009 10:19:48 AM
Originally Posted By gonyea:
Su-27 was a stolen copy of the F-15 so the Su-35 is an upgraded f-15c

Big deal Israel dropped Su-27s with F-4s not really worried about it

That being said Countries are now catching up to our aircraft capabilities and us not focussing on the next generation of airwarfare will end up putting us behind for the first time since 1944.


Um basically wrong on all counts...
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Posted: 8/21/2009 10:20:03 AM
Originally Posted By chrism101:
Originally Posted By Chairborne:
The Sukhoi PAK-FA is the "Russian F-22", not a warmed over, warmed over, SU-27. The SU-35 would last about as long as it took the AIM-120D to fly to it against an F-22.


Yep, but the PAK-FA is a Paper tiger, it doesn't exist and in current economy it won't exist.

this is the PAK-FA at this point;

http://howtomakepaperairplane.com/images/How_to_make_paper_airplanes_img_15.jpg


It's on schedule to make it's maiden flight by years end. We shall see.
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chrism101
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Posted: 8/21/2009 10:20:48 AM
Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
Originally Posted By AcidGambit:
Originally Posted By chrism101:
Originally Posted By Furyataurus:
Originally Posted By BRONZ:
As long as our pilots keep getting the training they get, I'm not worried.

Its the pilot not the plane.


For gun kills yes. But not when the other guy can see you and already has weapons lock on you and your radar isn't picking up anything.



When was the last Air to Air US Gunkill?


Desert Storm.

...and the A-10 has a 30mm cannon, NOT a 20mm.


True a GAU-8A Avenger 30mm cannon; a slight typo.




So while still an A/A gunkill, not exactly a dog fight... and before that...?

BTW the F-35 will have a mini avenger as its primary gun in the CTOL models. 25mm 4 barrell version...
chrism101
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Posted: 8/21/2009 10:22:11 AM
Originally Posted By hondaciv:
Originally Posted By chrism101:
Originally Posted By Chairborne:
The Sukhoi PAK-FA is the "Russian F-22", not a warmed over, warmed over, SU-27. The SU-35 would last about as long as it took the AIM-120D to fly to it against an F-22.


Yep, but the PAK-FA is a Paper tiger, it doesn't exist and in current economy it won't exist.

this is the PAK-FA at this point;

http://howtomakepaperairplane.com/images/How_to_make_paper_airplanes_img_15.jpg


It's on schedule to make it's maiden flight crash into a school yard by years end. We shall see.


fixed it...

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Posted: 8/21/2009 10:26:11 AM
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Posted: 8/21/2009 10:27:56 AM
Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
Originally Posted By chrism101:
Originally Posted By Furyataurus:
Originally Posted By BRONZ:
As long as our pilots keep getting the training they get, I'm not worried.

Its the pilot not the plane.


For gun kills yes. But not when the other guy can see you and already has weapons lock on you and your radar isn't picking up anything.



When was the last Air to Air US Gunkill?


1991 actuaqlly, a USAF A-10 pilot knocked out an Iraqi helicopter using his 20mm cannon30mm. Pilot could not get a lock on on his A/A missiles, so he switched to guns and vaporized the helicopter, which was an M1-8 Hook transport if my memory serves me right.



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Posted: 8/21/2009 10:32:11 AM
Everyone talks about us needing a billion F-22s; Just who exactly can develop and afford to field a comparable airfcraft and train (this is the critical part) their pilots on the same level as the United States? The prospect of anyone ever getting air superiority over the US in the next 50 years is laughable.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 10:51:20 AM
Originally Posted By DLoken:
Everyone talks about us needing a billion F-22s; Just who exactly can develop and afford to field a comparable airfcraft and train (this is the critical part) their pilots on the same level as the United States? The prospect of anyone ever getting air superiority over the US in the next 50 years is laughable.


You are delusional if you think that we can maintain uncontested air superiority over the next half century if we continue our current course. We have bought 178 F-22s, not even enough for one squadron per AEF. We are retiring F-16s and the F-15s aren't that much newer. If history teaches us anything it is that the F-35 purchase will be slashed to less than half of the initial purchase plan.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 11:05:05 AM

Originally Posted By DLoken:
Everyone talks about us needing a billion F-22s; Just who exactly can develop and afford to field a comparable airfcraft and train (this is the critical part) their pilots on the same level as the United States? The prospect of anyone ever getting air superiority over the US in the next 50 years is laughable.

Really? 50 years ago we were flying the F4 Phantom, the 50 years before that we were still flying airplanes with bicycles tires. Who knows what the next 50 years might bring? If we stop working as hard to remain on top, others will take our place. Think China.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 11:05:48 AM
[Last Edit: 8/21/2009 11:07:26 AM by RenegadeX]
The US has not lost an ACM engagement in almost 40 years. An astonishing record. Right now we are fielding the most advanced planes ever....Our stuff is going to be the best for decades to come.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 11:09:57 AM
The future of air warfare is unmanned vehicles . The F-22 is probably the last manned air superiorty fighter we will ever field. We're a good twenty years away from it, but its coming. No question about it.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 11:13:20 AM
[Last Edit: 8/21/2009 11:50:07 AM by chrism101]
well time to throw the PAK-FA in the Mix....









January 21, 2009
Swords and Shields: Russia bets on PAK FA
by Ariel Cohen, Ph.D.
Moscow continues to pursue a Sukhoi-based fifth-generation fighter. After five years of effort, Russia finally found an international partner for the development project. In 2007 India entered an agreement to jointly develop a fifth-generation fighter based on the Sukhoi.

The Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA –– standing for Advanced Frontline Aviation Aircraft System –– is a stealth-enabled fighter jet designed to compete with the American Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning Joint Strike Aircraft and the Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptor. Russian air force watchers already christened it "Raptorsky" after the F-22 Raptor, with which it is supposed to compete.

The developers describe the T-50 PAK FA as having excellent maneuverability, supersonic cruising speed, long range and high protective properties. PAK FA will have a takeoff weight of 20 tons, which falls between the takeoff weight of the two American competitor airplanes, the F-35 JSF (17.2 tons) and the F-22 (24 tons).

The new fighter –– a medium version –– will have a traditional wing form, though the dramatic-looking reverse-delta wing of the Su-47 Berkut influenced the Russian fighter's designers.

The Russian fifth-generation fighter is supposed to make its first test flight this year. The testing dates have been postponed from the end of 2008, as had been previously announced by Sergei Ivanov, the Russian deputy prime minister in charge of defense production.

Some Russian spokesmen promised deployment of the T-50 in 2013, but according to the earlier statements by Sukhoi CEO Mikhail Pogosyan, the new Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter might enter mass production by 2015.

According to Russian sources, the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA will incorporate technology from the two experimental predecessors: the Su-47 and the MiG Project 1.44.

The flagships of the Russian aerospace technology –– Tekhnokompleks Scientific and Production Center, Ramenskoye Instrument Building Design Bureau, the Instrument Building Scientific Research Institute in Zhukovskiy, the Ural'sk Optical and Mechanical Plant in Yekaterinburg, the Polet firm in Nizhniy Novgorod and the Central Scientific Research Radio Engineering Institute in Moscow –– were selected to develop the avionics suite for the fifth-generation airplane.

NPO Saturn has been determined to lead the work on the engines. The Novosibirsk Aviation Production Association has begun construction of the fifth-generation fighter at its renowned Komsomol'sk-on-Amure Chkalov plant where most Sukhoi fighters are made.

However, considering the current economic recession and the track record of delayed deadlines, the Russian fifth-generation fighter may stay on paper for a longer time. This would give Washington and its allies sufficient time to launch mass production of F-35s, deploy them on American bases and fulfill orders from international customers such as Britain, the Netherlands and Israel.

The F-35 is expected to enter service no later than 2012, while the Russian Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA is certain to be in mass production by that time.

The future may not be bright for the next generation of the Russian fighter. Many Western defense experts believe Russia's fourth-generation fighter jets cannot withstand the U.S. stealth-enabled tandem of F-35 and F-22, which offer high maneuverability and near invisibility to surface radars because of advanced radar suppression equipment. Moreover, U.S.-based simulations and tests suggest that the stealth-enabled fifth-generation F-22 and F-35 can defeat any current aircraft, including the Raptorsky.

Ariel Cohen is senior research fellow in Russian and Eurasian studies at the Heritage Foundation.

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Posted: 8/21/2009 11:21:00 AM
Originally Posted By chrism101:
Originally Posted By Furyataurus:
Originally Posted By BRONZ:
As long as our pilots keep getting the training they get, I'm not worried.

Its the pilot not the plane.


For gun kills yes. But not when the other guy can see you and already has weapons lock on you and your radar isn't picking up anything.



When was the last Air to Air US Gunkill?


You know, the first versions of the F-4 used in Vietnam didn't have a gun because they were convinced it was unnecessary. That lesson cost the lives of several pilots and I don't recommend we re-learn it the hard way.

In a low intensity war where air opposition is essentially non-existent, it may not matter. In a full scale head to head war, pilots are going to be glad they've got a fallback.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 11:22:08 AM
Originally Posted By DLoken:
Everyone talks about us needing a billion F-22s; Just who exactly can develop and afford to field a comparable airfcraft and train (this is the critical part) their pilots on the same level as the United States? The prospect of anyone ever getting air superiority over the US in the next 50 years is laughable.


Ahh well, we have air superiority now so I we just won't need every field any new fighters
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Posted: 8/21/2009 11:22:33 AM
Originally Posted By nissanfan84:
tl;dr just send a SEAL team to blow em up and make it look like an accident.



Meh, all they need is a couple of Russian airshows to destroy them all.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 11:24:16 AM
Originally Posted By Ameshawki:
The future of air warfare is unmanned vehicles . The F-22 is probably the last manned air superiorty fighter we will ever field. We're a good twenty years away from it, but its coming. No question about it.




The UAV shit for air to air will last until someone realizes that heavy radio jamming will disable your entire air force. Not to mention that in an actual dogfight, waiting 500 milliseconds for your commands to reach the UAV is unacceptably slow.

I can see UAV's replacing manned air to ground aircraft, since they won't be used anyway until control of the air is established.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 11:38:55 AM
[Last Edit: 8/21/2009 11:48:26 AM by chrism101]
Originally Posted By JamesP81:
Originally Posted By Ameshawki:
The future of air warfare is unmanned vehicles . The F-22 is probably the last manned air superiorty fighter we will ever field. We're a good twenty years away from it, but its coming. No question about it.




The UAV shit for air to air will last until someone realizes that heavy radio jamming will disable your entire air force. Not to mention that in an actual dogfight, waiting 500 milliseconds for your commands to reach the UAV is unacceptably slow.

I can see UAV's replacing manned air to ground aircraft, since they won't be used anyway until control of the air is established.


I think we are well aware that our satellites will be attacked on many levels in future wars as will our command and control data centers as witnessed by recent DDOS attacks.

It is plausible that they could direct control to people in theatre, via the Aegis Combat system, JSTAR etc... Dont think our UAV guys will continue to sit unscathed in a sunny US locale and run the UAV show.

No they will have to be in on a short and direct link to enter aerial combat.
And our sensor networks are going to have to reach out farther and touch someone with out them knowing it.
That is all part of developing for the future and not stopping at the current level of aircraft. And definately no cutting short our current objectives.

Then you have SKYNET, and the autonomus thinking aircraft.
So long as they are sent out in a READ ONLY configuration, they should be able to enter combat, identify targets, engage, and return without a control data link, but rather a link to show the results of their actions.

The last thing we want is one that is READ WRITE that is hacked and disabled or turned on our own people, assets, and materials.

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Posted: 8/21/2009 11:46:54 AM
Originally Posted By weptek911:
Originally Posted By nissanfan84:
tl;dr just send a SEAL team to blow em up and make it look like an accident.



Meh, all they need is a couple of Russian airshows to destroy them all.


Pretty much this. If Russia is still trying to catch up to our last new gen fighter..when are they (or anyone else for that matter) going to actually field anything that holds a candle to the F22?
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Posted: 8/21/2009 11:58:48 AM
Originally Posted By Burntrubber87:
Originally Posted By weptek911:
Originally Posted By nissanfan84:
tl;dr just send a SEAL team to blow em up and make it look like an accident.



Meh, all they need is a couple of Russian airshows to destroy them all.


Pretty much this. If Russia is still trying to catch up to our last new gen fighter..when are they (or anyone else for that matter) going to actually field anything that holds a candle to the F22?


Well the reality is that "stealth" is no longer as stealthy as it once was and it will be even less so in the future with more and more advanced sensor systems that are capable of detecting and targeting stealth aircraft. And past its stealth features the F-22 isn't that much more advanced than its rivals (it is more advanced right now, but its generally easy to catch up in terms of engines/sensors).
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Posted: 8/21/2009 12:08:05 PM
Originally Posted By JamesP81:
Originally Posted By Ameshawki:
The future of air warfare is unmanned vehicles . The F-22 is probably the last manned air superiorty fighter we will ever field. We're a good twenty years away from it, but its coming. No question about it.




The UAV shit for air to air will last until someone realizes that heavy radio jamming will disable your entire air force. Not to mention that in an actual dogfight, waiting 500 milliseconds for your commands to reach the UAV is unacceptably slow.

I can see UAV's replacing manned air to ground aircraft, since they won't be used anyway until control of the air is established.


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Posted: 8/21/2009 12:08:45 PM
[Last Edit: 8/21/2009 12:08:56 PM by CFII]
Please name a decisive battle in which superior Russian training and technology won the day.




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Posted: 8/21/2009 12:17:20 PM
Originally Posted By CFII:
Please name a decisive battle in which superior Russian training and technology won the day.




Seriously


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Posted: 8/21/2009 12:25:02 PM
I can see UAV's becoming aerial attack platforms, essentially flying missile carriers. A stealthy spotter aircraft like an F22 or an uber powerful radar like an AWACS paints the targets and the drones launch their missiles. No need for any fancy dogfighting or combat maneuvers; with modern air to air missiles there's almost no way to evade them anyway, so why would there be a need to dogfight?

Why take the risk of getting that close to the enemy when you can pick him off without ever having visual contact? I see aerial maneuvers becoming less and less relevant as missile technology gets more and more advanced, thus UAV's would be a cheap but formidable air superiority component. And as for the jamming arguments, who or what is going to be doing the jamming? An aircraft that can be shot down? A ground installation that can be bombed? Anything doing that jamming is going to be lit up like a christmas tree and blown to hell in short order.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 12:28:56 PM
Originally Posted By CFII:
Please name a decisive battle in which superior Russian training and technology won the day.




Seriously




The battle of Rotyacokof


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Posted: 8/21/2009 12:40:14 PM
Originally Posted By JamesP81:
Originally Posted By Ameshawki:
The future of air warfare is unmanned vehicles . The F-22 is probably the last manned air superiorty fighter we will ever field. We're a good twenty years away from it, but its coming. No question about it.




The UAV shit for air to air will last until someone realizes that heavy radio jamming will disable your entire air force. Not to mention that in an actual dogfight, waiting 500 milliseconds for your commands to reach the UAV is unacceptably slow.

I can see UAV's replacing manned air to ground aircraft, since they won't be used anyway until control of the air is established.


No different than that same jamming eliminating AWACS direction, radar, commo, etc for manned aircraft.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 12:40:35 PM
Originally Posted By DLoken:
Everyone talks about us needing a billion F-22s; Just who exactly can develop and afford to field a comparable airfcraft and train (this is the critical part) their pilots on the same level as the United States? The prospect of anyone ever getting air superiority over the US in the next 50 years is laughable.


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Posted: 8/21/2009 12:44:00 PM
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Posted: 8/21/2009 12:47:49 PM
Originally Posted By DLoken:
Everyone talks about us needing a billion F-22s; Just who exactly can develop and afford to field a comparable airfcraft and train (this is the critical part) their pilots on the same level as the United States? The prospect of anyone ever getting air superiority over the US in the next 50 years is laughable.


But that's just the point: we don't want anyone ever reaching that stage, so why blow our crucially-important technological superiority?

Moreover, we're going to produce so few F-22s that we'll be forced to rely on larger numbers of fourth-generation fighters, which WILL be matched technologically in the next few years. Even with our pilots' superior training, the new AA and SA battlefield doctrine of the Russians and Chinese is to overwhelm any attacking force with numerical superiority in the aircraft and missile envelope. When your enemy builds an excellent fourth-gen fighter cheaply enough to export thousands of them, as well as build eight hundred or a thousand for themselves, we have a problem, and it will absolutely be in the next decade rather than 50 years.

The key is to build more F-22s; building more of them lowers the per-unit cost and keeps our advantage on the modern battlefield.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 1:01:13 PM
Originally Posted By Frank_The_Tank:
Originally Posted By DLoken:
Everyone talks about us needing a billion F-22s; Just who exactly can develop and afford to field a comparable airfcraft and train (this is the critical part) their pilots on the same level as the United States? The prospect of anyone ever getting air superiority over the US in the next 50 years is laughable.


Why do you even open your cakehole?


My thoughts exactly.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 1:04:53 PM
[Last Edit: 8/21/2009 1:06:54 PM by chrism101]
Originally Posted By sebois:
Originally Posted By DLoken:
Everyone talks about us needing a billion F-22s; Just who exactly can develop and afford to field a comparable airfcraft and train (this is the critical part) their pilots on the same level as the United States? The prospect of anyone ever getting air superiority over the US in the next 50 years is laughable.


But that's just the point: we don't want anyone ever reaching that stage, so why blow our crucially-important technological superiority?

Moreover, we're going to produce so few F-22s that we'll be forced to rely on larger numbers of fourth-generation fighters, which WILL be matched technologically in the next few years. Even with our pilots' superior training, the new AA and SA battlefield doctrine of the Russians and Chinese is to overwhelm any attacking force with numerical superiority in the aircraft and missile envelope. When your enemy builds an excellent fourth-gen fighter cheaply enough to export thousands of them, as well as build eight hundred or a thousand for themselves, we have a problem, and it will absolutely be in the next decade rather than 50 years.

The key is to build more F-22s; building more of them lowers the per-unit cost and keeps our advantage on the modern battlefield.


This is the absolute truth... cut one unit or one program and the rest all go up in price... Because they have workers that need paid that were put to work at the start of the programs.

this a current quote today about Raytheon:

"The latest additions include a successful missile intercept test, big cost hikes for the SM-3 Block II due to another program’s cancellation, and Raytheon’s announcement that it will develop a land-based SM-3 variant"

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Posted: 8/21/2009 1:41:17 PM
Originally Posted By chrism101:
Originally Posted By sebois:
Originally Posted By DLoken:
Everyone talks about us needing a billion F-22s; Just who exactly can develop and afford to field a comparable airfcraft and train (this is the critical part) their pilots on the same level as the United States? The prospect of anyone ever getting air superiority over the US in the next 50 years is laughable.


But that's just the point: we don't want anyone ever reaching that stage, so why blow our crucially-important technological superiority?

Moreover, we're going to produce so few F-22s that we'll be forced to rely on larger numbers of fourth-generation fighters, which WILL be matched technologically in the next few years. Even with our pilots' superior training, the new AA and SA battlefield doctrine of the Russians and Chinese is to overwhelm any attacking force with numerical superiority in the aircraft and missile envelope. When your enemy builds an excellent fourth-gen fighter cheaply enough to export thousands of them, as well as build eight hundred or a thousand for themselves, we have a problem, and it will absolutely be in the next decade rather than 50 years.

The key is to build more F-22s; building more of them lowers the per-unit cost and keeps our advantage on the modern battlefield.


This is the absolute truth... cut one unit or one program and the rest all go up in price... Because they have workers that need paid that were put to work at the start of the programs.

this a current quote today about Raytheon:

"The latest additions include a successful missile intercept test, big cost hikes for the SM-3 Block II due to another program’s cancellation, and Raytheon’s announcement that it will develop a land-based SM-3 variant"




The single largest determining factor in the per-unit labor cost is the fact that all those workers are unionized. When we buy a Raptor, part of its trmendously bloated price tag is due to union wages, union healthcare and investment packages, and union pensions. The reason the Russians and the Chinese are able to do it for so much less is labor costs, all of which are non-union. I wish that America would learn to put national security ahead of union security; we would be a hell of a lot better off.
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Posted: 8/21/2009 4:13:16 PM
Originally Posted By weptek911:
Originally Posted By nissanfan84:
tl;dr just send a SEAL team to blow em up and make it look like an accident.



Meh, all they need is a couple of Russian airshows to destroy them all.



Hahahaha!!!

Grreeat!!
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