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StraightShooter7
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:33:57 PM
[Last Edit: 6/30/2009 2:45:11 PM by StraightShooter7]
A coworker is trying to tell me that back in the 18th century; most Spanish people had blond hair. Is he right?

EDIT: And no, I am not confusing people from Spain with Hispanics.
RePp
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:34:32 PM
no he is not right
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Lovelessk999
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:35:25 PM
LOTS of spanish still do. It's abit watered down since it's a recessive gene, but it's still there in spades.

Are you thinking Mexicans and Spanish are the same folks?
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happycynic
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:35:40 PM
Wouldn't be surprised to see some blond or even red-head given that it was conquered by the goths.
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marksman121
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:35:56 PM
[Last Edit: 6/30/2009 2:36:26 PM by marksman121]
So everyone just washed their hair with magic dust recently to get very dark brown almost black hair now?

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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:37:13 PM
Don't get people from Spain confused with Mestizos and the grab bag of racial nonsense known as "hispanic".
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:37:28 PM
Originally Posted By happycynic:
Wouldn't be surprised to see some blond or even red-head given that it was conquered by the goths.


When I was in college I actually saw a girl who was of Spanish extraction and had red hair. It's usually more of a sandy, darkish red. She was quite attractive.
RePp
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:38:11 PM
Originally Posted By JamesP81:
Originally Posted By happycynic:
Wouldn't be surprised to see some blond or even red-head given that it was conquered by the goths.


When I was in college I actually saw a girl who was of Spanish extraction and had red hair. It's usually more of a sandy, darkish red. She was quite attractive.



I have seen lots of people from spain with red hair

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Kharn
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:39:01 PM
Both the Spanish (actual-from-Spain Spanish) and Sicilians had light hair until they were invaded by dark-haired groups.

Kharn
azmjs
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:39:08 PM
I think he's probably wrong about the 18th century part.

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Vodka. That's what they drink, isn't it? Never water?
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happycynic
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:40:03 PM
Originally Posted By JamesP81:
Originally Posted By happycynic:
Wouldn't be surprised to see some blond or even red-head given that it was conquered by the goths.


When I was in college I actually saw a girl who was of Spanish extraction and had red hair. It's usually more of a sandy, darkish red. She was quite attractive.


Now that I recall, the Celts were there before the Goths, so add more potential red-head genes to the pool.
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Fearlessleader01
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:40:23 PM
People from Spain have every natural hair color from black to red.
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azmjs
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:40:29 PM
Originally Posted By Kharn:
Both the Spanish (actual-from-Spain Spanish) and Sicilians had light hair until they were invaded by dark-haired groups.

Kharn


"so you're sicilian?"

I read a lot, especially about things, and about history.

I find that shit fascinating.

Have you ever seen a commie drink a glass of water?
Vodka. That's what they drink, isn't it? Never water?
On no account will a commie ever drink water. And not without good reason.
StraightShooter7
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:42:09 PM
Originally Posted By Lovelessk999:
LOTS of spanish still do. It's abit watered down since it's a recessive gene, but it's still there in spades.

Are you thinking Mexicans and Spanish are the same folks?


No
M1A4ME
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:42:38 PM
When I lived in del Rio, TX I remember one very pretty blond girl with blue eyes. She spoke spanish and rode a bus from an area near the border to the high school. I asked one of my friends about her and he told me she was a Mexican. Being 17 and naive I had a hard time believing it. He told me she was from down near Mexico City and from a very rich family. He told me a lot of the high class rich families from that area were lighter skinned with lighter hair color as they had not interbred with the indians over the years and were still closer to their Spanish roots (northern Spain I believe he said.)

Not saying it's true, just what I heard.
Dr_Dickie
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:43:59 PM
Originally Posted By StraightShooter7:
A coworker is trying to tell me that back in the 18th century; most Spanish people had blond hair. Is he right?


All the ones that I see on Univision have blond hair.
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schizrade
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:45:11 PM
Some do, some don't. Spain is in Europe you know.
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:49:05 PM
Originally Posted By schizrade:
Some do, some don't. Spain is in Europe you know.


Remember that Spain was ruled, in part or whole, by Arabs for a few hundred years. There's some of that in the gene pool.
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:49:49 PM
Spain is a bigish country. The north boarders France and the south Morocco. As you might expect there is a lot of genetic variation, even more so in the 1700's a people tended to marry people from their own village or district and travel was difficult and dangerous.

Hell, people from Spain still speak regional versions of Spanish, not to mention Basque!
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:50:27 PM
[Last Edit: 6/30/2009 2:52:11 PM by AJ_Dual]
Originally Posted By Fearlessleader01:
People from Spain have every natural hair color from black to red.


This. They are a mainland European gene pool. I thought everyone knew this. They then had the Moors/Berber genes thrown in during the Muslim occupation from A.D. 710 to about A.D. 1130.

And then what Americans tend to reflexively think of as "Spanish", i.e. Mexicans, have a heavy mixing of Native American blood.

Originally Posted By M1A4ME:
When I lived in del Rio, TX I remember one very pretty blond girl with blue eyes. She spoke spanish and rode a bus from an area near the border to the high school. I asked one of my friends about her and he told me she was a Mexican. Being 17 and naive I had a hard time believing it. He told me she was from down near Mexico City and from a very rich family. He told me a lot of the high class rich families from that area were lighter skinned with lighter hair color as they had not interbred with the indians over the years and were still closer to their Spanish roots (northern Spain I believe he said.)

Not saying it's true, just what I heard.


It is indeed true.

Mexico is a very racial society. It's not quite as cut-and-dried as American racial divisions, but lighter skinned European Spaniard Mexicans on average have higher social and economic status than darker Native people. And mixes of everyone make up those in-between. And Mexican society and social mobility, or a lack of it, based on race is much worse than it is in America. Mexico gets (and gives itself) a pass because other than the poorest of the full-blooded Native areas, it's difficult to point out any particular group being discriminated against. However, rest assured they know where any one particular individual lies on the spectrum there.

The various Mexican establishments like to poke fingers at the U.S. because they didn't "officialy" have slavery like we did, and our much more open dialog on race, and the 1960's civil rights movment put racial issues here in the spotlight. In Mexico, things are much more repressive, and just swept under the rug.
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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:57:32 PM
My moms pilipino but her dad and grandfather were pure Spanish coming from Segovia Spain....in the north I believe.

Grandfather was blond but father was brunette but both had light blue eyes.....



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Posted: 6/30/2009 2:59:23 PM
Originally Posted By Spearweasel:
Originally Posted By schizrade:
Some do, some don't. Spain is in Europe you know.


Remember that Spain was ruled, in part or whole, by Arabs for a few hundred years. There's some of that in the gene pool.


And before that, it was ruled by the Visigoths for a few hundred years.
Drakich
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Posted: 6/30/2009 3:00:44 PM
Originally Posted By Tacticalpancake:
Don't get people from Spain confused with Mestizos and the grab bag of racial nonsense known as "hispanic".


I've seen some Spaniards that could have easily passed for a mestizo. Short, dark, asiatic features.
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Posted: 6/30/2009 3:02:06 PM

Originally Posted By Spearweasel:
Originally Posted By schizrade:
Some do, some don't. Spain is in Europe you know.


Remember that Spain was ruled, in part or whole, by Arabs for a few hundred years. There's some of that in the gene pool.

Wow. Really?


My wife has mounds of Spanish blood on both sides, and they have blond, red and black hair and all shades in between. Her mothers Family are Sephardic Jews.
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Colby
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Posted: 6/30/2009 3:06:57 PM
One of the haplotypes on the Y-chromosome in Basque men can also be found in highest numbers in Ireland and Great Britain. Makes sense really that their closest relatives would live there...

I've known a few blonde Mexicans from the Mexico City area. It freaked me out a little too. I kind of expected everybody to be a mestizo.
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Posted: 6/30/2009 3:11:48 PM
Originally Posted By Fearlessleader01:
People from Spain have every natural hair color from black to red.


This.

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Posted: 6/30/2009 3:13:06 PM
Many have red hair. I guess it depends on their ancestry.
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RePp
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Posted: 6/30/2009 3:14:13 PM
Originally Posted By Colby:
One of the haplotypes on the Y-chromosome in Basque men can also be found in highest numbers in Ireland and Great Britain. Makes sense really that their closest relatives would live there...

I've known a few blonde Mexicans from the Mexico City area. It freaked me out a little too. I kind of expected everybody to be a mestizo.


Basque is suppose to be one of the oldiest groups out there. Im half basque and I havent laid eyes on a blonde one yet.
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Posted: 6/30/2009 3:19:17 PM
Originally Posted By StraightShooter7:
A coworker is trying to tell me that back in the 18th century; most Spanish people had blond hair. Is he right?

EDIT: And no, I am not confusing people from Spain with Hispanics.

He's wrong. There were and are some, but a majority of the population aren't blonde even in Scandinavia, let alone a Mediterranean country like Spain.
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Posted: 6/30/2009 3:19:23 PM
Originally Posted By RePp:
Originally Posted By Colby:
One of the haplotypes on the Y-chromosome in Basque men can also be found in highest numbers in Ireland and Great Britain. Makes sense really that their closest relatives would live there...

I've known a few blonde Mexicans from the Mexico City area. It freaked me out a little too. I kind of expected everybody to be a mestizo.


Basque is suppose to be one of the oldiest groups out there. Im half basque and I havent laid eyes on a blonde one yet.


IIRC, Vana White is of basque descent
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Posted: 6/30/2009 3:26:37 PM
I've met a considerable number of blonde and redhead Spaniards. Nothing uncommon. Brown hair and black was (and is, just about everywhere) more common, but the two weren't unusual.

In high school we had half a Spanish soccer team come over as exchange students, and it was 50/50 between brown hair and blonde/redheads.

Italians are much the same, though more universally brown haired (blondes being around, but not as common).
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Posted: 6/30/2009 3:33:08 PM
I'm guessing they had the same hair colors as other Europeans.
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Posted: 6/30/2009 3:38:19 PM
[Last Edit: 6/30/2009 3:38:47 PM by MK4Mod0]
I knew a girl from Spain........Blonde[real color not dyed] , Pretty .........quite a temper...............very nice girl well spoken.

I think she was from the area around Madrid.
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Posted: 6/30/2009 3:55:16 PM
Not to hijack, but I worked with a woman who was very fair skinned and had white blond hair. . . Her first name was Yesham. . . I thought she was Israeli, but turned out she was Turkish!

She told me there is a good size group of people in Turkey with those characteristics. . . . some believe it was from the Greeks coming through that area with Alexander the Great. . . don't know about that, but certainly that area was criss-crossed by many peoples over the centuries conquering, trading, etc. . . I would think the same could be said for Spain. . .
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Posted: 6/30/2009 3:58:03 PM


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Posted: 6/30/2009 4:38:21 PM
Possibly of interest:



Basically Iberia was inhabited by various Celtic peoples, subjugated by the Romans, and then invaded and settled by the Visigoths during the 400's and 500's AD. Fast forward a couple hundred years, and the expanding Caliphate conquered the whole of the Iberian peninsula save a small strip of land just south of the Bay of Biscay - this was retained by the Christian Visigoths (led by a fellow named Pelayo, as I recall, or something similar) and became known as the Kingdom of the Asturias. (On a side note, the Muslim expansion reached even north of the Pyrenees briefly before being halted by Charles Martel at Tours in 732.) The Asturians held on for a couple hundred years, then went back on the offensive - this is the time of El Cid and the beginning of the Reconquista. Some interesting tidbits - some commentators suggest that the concept of holy war and the crusades had their genesis in the Reconquista; perhaps closer to the question at hand, the phrase 'blue blood' probably came from this time period as well:

It was the Spaniards who gave the world the notion that an aristocrat's blood is not red but blue. The Spanish nobility started taking shape around the ninth century in classic military fashion, occupying land as warriors on horseback. They were to continue the process for more than five hundred years, clawing back sections of the peninsula from its Moorish occupiers, and a nobleman demonstrated his pedigree by holding up his sword arm to display the filigree of blue-blooded veins beneath his pale skin—proof that his birth had not been contaminated by the dark-skinned enemy. (Robert Lacey, Aristocrats. Little, Brown and Company, 1983, p. 67)


This whole process of reconquest helps to explain the rabid Catholicism of later Spain and their rigid caste system in the New World (distinguishing between those born in Spain, those born in the New World but of pure Spanish blood, those 3/4 Spanish - castizos, mestizos, cholos, indios, etc).
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Posted: 6/30/2009 4:40:02 PM
Originally Posted By FudgieGhost1:
Not to hijack, but I worked with a woman who was very fair skinned and had white blond hair. . . Her first name was Yesham. . . I thought she was Israeli, but turned out she was Turkish!

She told me there is a good size group of people in Turkey with those characteristics. . . . some believe it was from the Greeks coming through that area with Alexander the Great. . . don't know about that, but certainly that area was criss-crossed by many peoples over the centuries conquering, trading, etc. . . I would think the same could be said for Spain. . .


There were also Celts in central Turkey - Galatia
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Posted: 6/30/2009 4:42:17 PM
My grandmother had red hair, my fathers facial hair was red and black up top on his head, and my uncle was completely red haired.

Sadly I received none of this super power.

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Posted: 6/30/2009 4:44:02 PM
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Posted: 6/30/2009 4:46:50 PM
[Last Edit: 6/30/2009 4:49:54 PM by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By StraightShooter7:
A coworker is trying to tell me that back in the 18th century; most Spanish people had blond hair. Is he right?

EDIT: And no, I am not confusing people from Spain with Hispanics.

Nope...

The Moors came through after the Goths...

While Spain has 'all' hair colors, dark is far more common (blond hair is a recessive trait, simple genetics)
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Posted: 6/30/2009 4:48:14 PM
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Posted: 6/30/2009 4:52:44 PM
He is correct.

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Posted: 6/30/2009 4:53:53 PM

Originally Posted By azmjs:
Originally Posted By Kharn:
Both the Spanish (actual-from-Spain Spanish) and Sicilians had light hair until they were invaded by dark-haired groups.

Kharn


"so you're sicilian?"

I read a lot, especially about things, and about history.

I find that shit fascinating.


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Posted: 6/30/2009 4:57:13 PM
Originally Posted By Cypselus:
Originally Posted By StraightShooter7:
A coworker is trying to tell me that back in the 18th century; most Spanish people had blond hair. Is he right?

EDIT: And no, I am not confusing people from Spain with Hispanics.

He's wrong. There were and are some, but a majority of the population aren't blonde even in Scandinavia, let alone a Mediterranean country like Spain.


You might want to reconsider that: http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2007/12/04/214-the-blonde-map-of-europe/

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Posted: 6/30/2009 4:58:24 PM
Well my Grandmother who was from Spain was A RED Head and very fair skin!.

We suspect there was and Irishman in the woodpile!
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Posted: 6/30/2009 5:09:01 PM
Originally Posted By FudgieGhost1:
Not to hijack, but I worked with a woman who was very fair skinned and had white blond hair. . . Her first name was Yesham. . . I thought she was Israeli, but turned out she was Turkish!

She told me there is a good size group of people in Turkey with those characteristics. . . . some believe it was from the Greeks coming through that area with Alexander the Great. . . don't know about that, but certainly that area was criss-crossed by many peoples over the centuries conquering, trading, etc. . . I would think the same could be said for Spain. . .


I think that in some academic circles the Hittites are thought to have some fair-skinned characteristics, and they were the first tribes in that area.
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Posted: 6/30/2009 5:29:00 PM
supposedly, before the Moorish invasion it was a lot more common than it is now.

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Posted: 6/30/2009 5:30:28 PM
The only region where you would have been likely to see blond hair extensively would have been in Galicia and Asturias, in the north and northwest.
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Posted: 6/30/2009 5:33:52 PM
Originally Posted By StraightShooter7:
A coworker is trying to tell me that back in the 18th century; most Spanish people had blond hair. Is he right?

He is correct it was full of many more evil white Europeans then.

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Posted: 6/30/2009 9:22:53 PM
Originally Posted By happycynic:
Originally Posted By FudgieGhost1:
Not to hijack, but I worked with a woman who was very fair skinned and had white blond hair. . . Her first name was Yesham. . . I thought she was Israeli, but turned out she was Turkish!

She told me there is a good size group of people in Turkey with those characteristics. . . . some believe it was from the Greeks coming through that area with Alexander the Great. . . don't know about that, but certainly that area was criss-crossed by many peoples over the centuries conquering, trading, etc. . . I would think the same could be said for Spain. . .


I think that in some academic circles the Hittites are thought to have some fair-skinned characteristics, and they were the first tribes in that area.


The Greeks owned Turkey until they were kicked out by the Turks who were Steppe nomads. Ionia, aka western Turkey was settled by Greeks back before Homer's day. A sizable Gothic tribe was also settled there prior to the demise of the Roman empire. And the Greeks probably weren't always swarthy looking people with dark skin...that probably came courtesy of the Turkish conquest as well.



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Posted: 6/30/2009 9:32:23 PM

Originally Posted By azmjs:
Originally Posted By Kharn:
Both the Spanish (actual-from-Spain Spanish) and Sicilians had light hair until they were invaded by dark-haired groups.

Kharn


"so you're sicilian?"

I read a lot, especially about things, and about history.

I find that shit fascinating.


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