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Hawken50
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Posted: 5/31/2009 1:16:27 AM
I have a friend who wants to get a ccw (in NY this means background check, i've heard conducted by the feds, but i really don't know) However, she was hospitalized for depression (normal medical hospital, not mental hospital AFAIK) when she was 15-16 ish.

Would this show up on a background check? the application fee is $125 non-refundable, and she can't afford to waste that kind of cash if she gets rejected.

thanks guys.
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Posted: 5/31/2009 1:17:57 AM
Not here in WA.......
Danj
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Posted: 5/31/2009 1:19:20 AM
[Last Edit: 5/31/2009 1:20:49 AM by Danj]
Has she purchased a gun from a gun dealer? If she wasn't denied from the NICs check I don't think it's an issue. I think it is an issue when she was hopitalized due to a court order.

Post this in hometown forum they will answer this.
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Posted: 5/31/2009 1:27:51 AM
[Last Edit: 5/31/2009 1:28:44 AM by Mattl]
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Keith_J
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Posted: 5/31/2009 1:30:42 AM
The only medical records the LEOs can get are court-remanded mental cases.

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Hawken50
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Posted: 5/31/2009 1:31:01 AM
[Last Edit: 5/31/2009 1:35:40 AM by Hawken50]

Originally Posted By Danj:
Has she purchased a gun from a gun dealer? If she wasn't denied from the NICs check I don't think it's an issue. I think it is an issue when she was hopitalized due to a court order.

Post this in hometown forum they will answer this.


I'll do that, thank you.

ETA: As to her purchasing a gun, she has a shotgun she bought w/ her boyfriend years ago, but can't remember who actually bought it, her or him.
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SteelCore223
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Posted: 5/31/2009 1:44:47 AM
Here in KY anyway, the basis for denial for any mental issues would be dependent upon "committal" to a hospital. This does not mean voluntarily checking yourself in for some help or seeking some prescribed happy pills kind of help either...these things do not count against you...we are talking about being physically committed to a hospital by mental health professional, guardian, or judge before you have 4473 and CCDW problems..
They health records fall under HIPPA laws here and they can not see them without a warrant or your permission.

Only angle I could see where this could be an issue in your state (just a guess)...understanding that the only time a Doctor may disclose this kind of info without consent is when they think you are a danger to society or yourself (like getting your eyes checked by a doc and they say you are legally blind so they have to alert the driver's license people to your status or be held liable)...But I doubt this would be the case.
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Posted: 5/31/2009 1:48:02 AM
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
The only medical records the LEOs can get are court-remanded mental cases.




This

crowdlg
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Posted: 5/31/2009 1:48:50 AM
Would they even be able to see it anyway since she was under 18 at the time?
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Hawken50
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Posted: 5/31/2009 1:55:55 AM

Originally Posted By crowdlg:
Would they even be able to see it anyway since she was under 18 at the time?


Never even thought about the underage aspect. anybody???
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Posted: 5/31/2009 2:01:00 AM
As a general rule medical history and information is confidential....it cannot be accessed by LEO or any other entity not directly involved in
the care of the subject except by court order. In the past such orders were difficult to get. What the future holds for the confidentiality
of your medical history is a good question....I am not optimistic on the subject.

In the past records were a physical entity that was stored at a specific location and had to be physically copied to be sent elsewhere for
use....this tended to limit the spread of that information if for no other reason than the expense of copying etc. and the manpower required to
do so.

Now that we are moving to the "electronic medical record" I am quite certain we will see .gov etc. abuse this data much more often as it
is much easier to transmit quickly, simply and cheaply in electronic form. We all are aware of how BATF is "encouraging" FFL's/dealers
to transtion from paper records to computer files....and it's no secret they want this so they can make further use of these records as
they choose to legal or not be damned. Expect the same for all other electronic records including health info.

Danj
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Posted: 5/31/2009 2:08:46 AM
I wonder how deep your county will dive into her history. They didn't even call my references. I have heard stories about the investigators going to next door neighbors and asking them how they thought of the idea that their neighbor was getting a gun.
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Hawken50
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Posted: 5/31/2009 2:15:17 AM

Originally Posted By Danj:
I wonder how deep your county will dive into her history. They didn't even call my references. I have heard stories about the investigators going to next door neighbors and asking them how they thought of the idea that their neighbor was getting a gun.


Good question. I've helped more than a dozen people get thier CCW's. probably been used as a refrence more, and i've never heard of them contacting anyone.

only one guy i know even had to do an interview with the sherrif, and he thinks that's cause he wasn't born in NY.
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Posted: 5/31/2009 2:24:51 AM
[Last Edit: 5/31/2009 2:27:58 AM by Danj]
If they don't contact your references then WTF do they do? Do they just run your prints, do a NICs check, and if it comes up clean you are good to go?

In the small area of my county that is served by the local sheriff they have a number of full time investigators that do this stuff. What are they doing all day long?
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Hawken50
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Posted: 5/31/2009 2:39:14 AM

Originally Posted By Danj:
If they don't contact your references then WTF do they do? Do they just run your prints, do a NICs check, and if it comes up clean you are good to go?

In the small area of my county that is served by the local sheriff they have a number of full time investigators that do this stuff. What are they doing all day long?

As far as I know, there is only one person who does pistol permits and she is a "clerk". she might have one assistant, i'm not sure. As far as what she does all day, I assume processing the associated paperwork is about it. They run a background check, but i think it's more in depth than a NICS check. I've heard it goes to the FBI, but i really don't know.

My county is pretty much "shall issue" in practice if not in name. I've never heard of anyone getting denied. But I also don't know anyone who was hospitalized with depression as a teen then applied for a CCW later in life. So I'm trying to help her figure out how to handle the situation.

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Danj
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Posted: 5/31/2009 2:40:54 AM

Originally Posted By Hawken50:

Originally Posted By Danj:
If they don't contact your references then WTF do they do? Do they just run your prints, do a NICs check, and if it comes up clean you are good to go?

In the small area of my county that is served by the local sheriff they have a number of full time investigators that do this stuff. What are they doing all day long?

As far as I know, there is only one person who does pistol permits and she is a "clerk". she might have one assistant, i'm not sure. As far as what she does all day, I assume processing the associated paperwork is about it. They run a background check, but i think it's more in depth than a NICS check. I've heard it goes to the FBI, but i really don't know.

My county is pretty much "shall issue" in practice if not in name. I've never heard of anyone getting denied. But I also don't know anyone who was hospitalized with depression as a teen then applied for a CCW later in life. So I'm trying to help her figure out how to handle the situation.

Can you elaborate as to her hospitalization? She was taken by her parents I guess?

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Hawken50
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Posted: 5/31/2009 2:53:06 AM

Originally Posted By Danj:
Can you elaborate as to her hospitalization? She was taken by her parents I guess?


Yes, her parents took her. she took a bunch of OTC pills (tylenol i think). she was there 4-5 days. saw a phycaiatrist. I don't think the police were involved at all.
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Posted: 5/31/2009 3:18:06 AM
[Last Edit: 5/31/2009 3:19:41 AM by raven]
Aside from presidential elections where medical histories were given only voluntarily, I have never heard of LEOs asking for it. I work with this kind of information and have never dealt with the authorities requesting it.

Mental health records are even more confidential than health records.
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Posted: 5/31/2009 3:32:33 AM
[Last Edit: 5/31/2009 3:33:48 AM by Zack3g]
Originally Posted By Hawken50:

Originally Posted By Danj:
Can you elaborate as to her hospitalization? She was taken by her parents I guess?


Yes, her parents took her. she took a bunch of OTC pills (tylenol i think). she was there 4-5 days. saw a phycaiatrist. I don't think the police were involved at all.


this sounds to me like she was PEC'd into that hospital's on-site psychiatric ward.


that being said, her being a minor might be a positive factor, but, it's not looking good if they don't take her age into account.


(i work with PEC's a lot...Physician's Emergency Certificate, it's used frequently by ER doctors to legally declare a person a threat to themselves or others and get them a psych eval/treatment)
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Hawken50
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Posted: 5/31/2009 3:40:49 AM

Originally Posted By Zack3g:
Originally Posted By Hawken50:

Originally Posted By Danj:
Can you elaborate as to her hospitalization? She was taken by her parents I guess?


Yes, her parents took her. she took a bunch of OTC pills (tylenol i think). she was there 4-5 days. saw a phycaiatrist. I don't think the police were involved at all.


this sounds to me like she was PEC'd into that hospital's on-site psychiatric ward.


that being said, her being a minor might be a positive factor, but, it's not looking good if they don't take her age into account.


(i work with PEC's a lot...Physician's Emergency Certificate, it's used frequently by ER doctors to legally declare a person a threat to themselves or others and get them a psych eval/treatment)

So your saying her name might be on a list somewhere in some database that the background check will find? This was over 15 years ago if that matters.
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Posted: 5/31/2009 4:04:19 AM
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I am suprised no one has mentioned HIPAA. Health record privacy is highly protected under Federal law. Violate HIPPA and you will most certainly lose your job, probably be sued and may do jail time. Medical privacy is a serious issue these days. Not much different from violating the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
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Posted: 5/31/2009 4:09:59 AM
[Last Edit: 5/31/2009 4:11:05 AM by Zack3g]
Originally Posted By Hawken50:

Originally Posted By Zack3g:
Originally Posted By Hawken50:

Originally Posted By Danj:
Can you elaborate as to her hospitalization? She was taken by her parents I guess?


Yes, her parents took her. she took a bunch of OTC pills (tylenol i think). she was there 4-5 days. saw a phycaiatrist. I don't think the police were involved at all.


this sounds to me like she was PEC'd into that hospital's on-site psychiatric ward.


that being said, her being a minor might be a positive factor, but, it's not looking good if they don't take her age into account.


(i work with PEC's a lot...Physician's Emergency Certificate, it's used frequently by ER doctors to legally declare a person a threat to themselves or others and get them a psych eval/treatment)

So your saying her name might be on a list somewhere in some database that the background check will find? This was over 15 years ago if that matters.



it might be, might not.


at this point, it really hinges on whether or not her age is a factor and just how good record keeping was back then.

assuming i'm right about the situation, and i probably am

that being said...as another poster earlier said, if she can pass a NICS check, she shouldn't have any issues.


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Hawken50
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Posted: 5/31/2009 7:14:01 PM
Got a little more info. She says the cops were not involved, and she was not "confined" as in- her parents could have taken her out at any time.
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Posted: 5/31/2009 7:15:47 PM
Here in NC they do psychiatric background.
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Posted: 5/31/2009 7:24:28 PM
Originally Posted By Clackamas:
I am suprised no one has mentioned HIPAA. Health record privacy is highly protected under Federal law. Violate HIPPA and you will most certainly lose your job, probably be sued and may do jail time. Medical privacy is a serious issue these days. Not much different from violating the 1964 Civil Rights Act.




Yes HIPAA is a factor that is involved with privacy of medical records....unfortunately for patients there is very little in the way of
enforcement done for HIPAA. Currently it is a rule that has no teeth. No one audits facilities routinely, no one evaluates security
other than whoever is assigned that job by a facility. I can tell you that HIPAA violations occur with shocking regularity and unless
the patient involved is a celebrity or other high powered person little if anything is done. The vast majority of violations are unintentional,
minor and limited but they occur regularly. The fines for such violations are aimed at facilities rather than persons/employees but I know
of no instances where such fines have been levied.

Fines for intentional misuse/transfer of info for profit etc. are significantly steeper and can include criminal prosecution.
The problem is the feds created HIPAA but did not create or assign effective inspection or enforcement powers or responsibility.
It is usually a patient who has suffered a loss of privacy that must start the ball rolling with a complaint. If the patient is unaware
their information has been used inappropriately....and it does happen....there will not be an enforcement effort.


Hawken50
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Posted: 5/31/2009 9:31:33 PM

Originally Posted By thexrayboy:
Originally Posted By Clackamas:
I am suprised no one has mentioned HIPAA. Health record privacy is highly protected under Federal law. Violate HIPPA and you will most certainly lose your job, probably be sued and may do jail time. Medical privacy is a serious issue these days. Not much different from violating the 1964 Civil Rights Act.




Yes HIPAA is a factor that is involved with privacy of medical records....unfortunately for patients there is very little in the way of
enforcement done for HIPAA. Currently it is a rule that has no teeth. No one audits facilities routinely, no one evaluates security
other than whoever is assigned that job by a facility. I can tell you that HIPAA violations occur with shocking regularity and unless
the patient involved is a celebrity or other high powered person little if anything is done. The vast majority of violations are unintentional,
minor and limited but they occur regularly. The fines for such violations are aimed at facilities rather than persons/employees but I know
of no instances where such fines have been levied.

Fines for intentional misuse/transfer of info for profit etc. are significantly steeper and can include criminal prosecution.
The problem is the feds created HIPAA but did not create or assign effective inspection or enforcement powers or responsibility.
It is usually a patient who has suffered a loss of privacy that must start the ball rolling with a complaint. If the patient is unaware
their information has been used inappropriately....and it does happen....there will not be an enforcement effort.



Does any of that apply to a background check though?

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Hawken50
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Posted: 5/31/2009 9:40:11 PM
Ok, boiling everything down. The Question on the application is-

"Have you ever been confined to any hospital, public or private institution, for mental illness?"

Do you believe she could defensably answer "no" to this question? because A)she was not "confined", B) she was a minor, C)hippa laws,

and (me asking, not her) would her incident really show up an a background check anyway?
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Posted: 5/31/2009 9:41:46 PM
Originally Posted By Hawken50:

Originally Posted By thexrayboy:
Originally Posted By Clackamas:
I am suprised no one has mentioned HIPAA. Health record privacy is highly protected under Federal law. Violate HIPPA and you will most certainly lose your job, probably be sued and may do jail time. Medical privacy is a serious issue these days. Not much different from violating the 1964 Civil Rights Act.




Yes HIPAA is a factor that is involved with privacy of medical records....unfortunately for patients there is very little in the way of
enforcement done for HIPAA. Currently it is a rule that has no teeth. No one audits facilities routinely, no one evaluates security
other than whoever is assigned that job by a facility. I can tell you that HIPAA violations occur with shocking regularity and unless
the patient involved is a celebrity or other high powered person little if anything is done. The vast majority of violations are unintentional,
minor and limited but they occur regularly. The fines for such violations are aimed at facilities rather than persons/employees but I know
of no instances where such fines have been levied.

Fines for intentional misuse/transfer of info for profit etc. are significantly steeper and can include criminal prosecution.
The problem is the feds created HIPAA but did not create or assign effective inspection or enforcement powers or responsibility.
It is usually a patient who has suffered a loss of privacy that must start the ball rolling with a complaint. If the patient is unaware
their information has been used inappropriately....and it does happen....there will not be an enforcement effort.



Does any of that apply to a background check though?




Posters above have asked if medical records are a factor in background checks.....
HIPAA etc. would be a factor (theoretically) in who can and cannot access medical records without
knowledge or permission from the person of record.

Due to the lack of an effective enforcment mechanism for medical info covered by HIPAA the ability of
researchers to access such information as part of a background check process is open to debate.
In theory they cannot get the info without written permission from the patient or a court order.
In reality.......well, it ain't a perfect world.



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Posted: 5/31/2009 9:43:47 PM
Originally Posted By Hawken50:
Ok, boiling everything down. The Question on the application is-

"Have you ever been confined to any hospital, public or private institution, for mental illness?"

Do you believe she could defensably answer "no" to this question? because A)she was not "confined", B) she was a minor, C)hippa laws,

and (me asking, not her) would her incident really show up an a background check anyway?




I would view the definition of "confined" as one of an involuntary admission....either by court order or
via a "5150" type mechanism.

Thy incident as reported was a voluntary admission by the persons parents when she was a minor and the
parents were free to remove or transfer her from the facility if they chose to do so.
I would answer the question "no".
Hawken50
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Posted: 5/31/2009 9:48:31 PM

Originally Posted By thexrayboy:
Originally Posted By Hawken50:
Ok, boiling everything down. The Question on the application is-

"Have you ever been confined to any hospital, public or private institution, for mental illness?"

Do you believe she could defensably answer "no" to this question? because A)she was not "confined", B) she was a minor, C)hippa laws,

and (me asking, not her) would her incident really show up an a background check anyway?




I would view the definition of "confined" as one of an involuntary admission....either by court order or
via a "5150" type mechanism.

Thy incident as reported was a voluntary admission by the persons parents when she was a minor and the
parents were free to remove or transfer her from the facility if they chose to do so.
I would answer the question "no".


Thank you. That's the recommendation I'll make to her as well.
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Posted: 5/31/2009 9:50:33 PM
Here in Maryland you have to give permission to the state to examine your medical records every single time you buy a gun.

This is one reason the Dems are such hypocrites and liars: they say they are all for "the right to privacy" but in MD you have to sign that right away to buy a gun––this was put into law by an executive order by our liberal Gov. O'Malley.
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Posted: 5/31/2009 10:04:06 PM
Do it now, this will become a major issue down the road.