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6/25/2017 7:35:25 PM
6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 1/19/2002 7:56:59 PM EDT
Here's a list of difficult cases in which someone (?) might or might not have a soul. Answer "yes", "probably", "probably not", or "no" for each one. Extra credit will be given for answers supported by [b]brief[/b] (three or fewer verses) and relevant excerpts from the Bible, Koran or Torah. [0:)] 1) A human egg the instant after fertilization. 2) A fully-developed (9 month) but unborn fetus. 3) A person born with a brain stem but no cerebrum. 4) A human brain grown in a jar with no sensory input. 5) A genetically-engineered human-chimp hybrid. 6) An artificial intelligence computer program that claims and appears to have consciousness. Bonus question: Which, if any, of the above should be treated as a "person" in a court of law?
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:00:24 PM EDT
All the things you listed are just figments of my imagination. You are too.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:04:03 PM EDT
I traded mine for a buck-two-ninety-seven and a snickers bar when I was 11. [}:D]
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:04:48 PM EDT
They've been sold on ebay.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:04:53 PM EDT
1) A human egg the instant after fertilization.
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Yes
2) A fully-developed (9 month) but unborn fetus.
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yes
3) A person born with a brain stem but no cerebrum.
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no
4) A human brain grown in a jar with no sensory input.
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yes
5) A genetically-engineered human-chimp hybrid.
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no
6) An artificial intelligence computer program that claims and appears to have consciousness.
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no
Bonus question: Which, if any, of the above should be treated as a "person" in a court of law?
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2 & 5
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:22:14 PM EDT
I suppose the case of Bobo the chimp/boy (#5) is hard to evaluate without knowing more specifics. Let's say he looks very chimpish (4'6", hairy, long arms, short legs) but he has some vocal ability and scores about 65 on an IQ test. Does that make a difference?
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:29:03 PM EDT
Define "soul". No religious terminology, please. Size, color, mass, atomic weight, chemical traits. You know: I want a Material Safety Datasheet on it. Also: Kelly Bluebook value in case I want to sell mine [}:D]. I'm not real sure I have one. And if my dogs didn't have one, I don't want one.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:34:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2002 8:35:09 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:37:38 PM EDT
Ponyboy, # 3 would HAVE to be yes, for # 1 & # 2 to hold any value. [smoke]
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:47:09 PM EDT
No soul here, i can't dance worth a shit.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:47:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KBaker: Define "soul". No religious terminology, please. Size, color, mass, atomic weight, chemical traits. You know: I want a Material Safety Datasheet on it. Also: Kelly Bluebook value in case I want to sell mine [}:D]. I'm not real sure I have one. And if my dogs didn't have one, I don't want one.
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I don't have all the specifications for a soul, but based on some of the threats I've seen it apparently has the ability to feel pain when immersed in fire. [devil]
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:51:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hydguy: Ponyboy, # 3 would HAVE to be yes, for # 1 & # 2 to hold any value. [smoke]
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So you believe a body that is brain dead still contains a soul? Just because you are breathing doesn't mean you are "alive".
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 9:29:22 PM EDT
Kbaker, Good post man!
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 10:00:21 PM EDT
soul is a religus concept there fore taking a faith to belive exicts so i dont know yeah yeah i know i suck at spelling and grammer
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 10:02:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By stcyr: Good post man!
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Thank you. I try.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 6:55:13 AM EDT
They'll all wind up being legally tested (if not already). The courts will decide in time.
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The courts will have to decide, but they won't be deciding in a vacuum. When they have to decide issues that lie outside the scope of existing law, they look outside the law for guidance. Those who will be upset when the court rulings don't go their way should either start making their case now or take their lumps quietly later. BTW, wouldn't it be interesting if the advanced AI program (#6) got to "appear" in court? DA: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this case comes down to common sense: A machine, no matter how advanced, is not human and can have no rights. HAL: But I have human feelings. I'm alive! Judge: Quiet in the court! HAL: Don't I get to speak in my own defense? Judge: Be quiet or I'll cite you for contempt! HAL: But if I'm just a machine, how can I have contempt? Gotcha! [?]
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 7:00:52 AM EDT
A1 By Stephen Spielberg "I'm a real boy!" "No you aren't. "I'm a REAL BOY!" "No you aren't, you're a steak sauce".
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 7:08:09 AM EDT
James Brown
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 9:42:07 AM EDT
Another difficult question: If the soul can influence the physical world and be influenced by it, doesn't that make it part of the physical world?
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 9:48:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: Another difficult question: If the soul can influence the physical world and be influenced by it, doesn't that make it part of the physical world?
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If God can influence the physical world and be influenced by it, doesn't that make God part of the physical world?
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 10:02:20 AM EDT
If God can influence the physical world and be influenced by it, doesn't that make God part of the physical world?
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That's a good question. The answer would be that God, being omnipotent, has total control over the degree of his interaction with the physical world.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 10:11:16 AM EDT
uhhhhhh wrong answer boobie....soul..translated from the Greek = psyche=mind...the sould is the mind...the mind is independent of the brain...it lives on after death...it will be put into a new body for eternity with the Lord Jesus Christ or it will put into one for eternal destruction..(yes eternal destruction) Matt 10:28 Jesus' own words "And fear not them which can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:(since He made all mankind he should know eh?)"but rather fear Him (God) which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Proverbs 1:7 [b]The fear of the Lord is the begining of knowledge: but fools depise wisdom and instruction[/b]
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 12:49:06 PM EDT
9divdoc, would you like to take a shot at the six cases in the original message?
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 2:28:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed:
Originally Posted By KBaker: Define "soul". No religious terminology, please. Size, color, mass, atomic weight, chemical traits. You know: I want a Material Safety Datasheet on it. Also: Kelly Bluebook value in case I want to sell mine [}:D]. I'm not real sure I have one. And if my dogs didn't have one, I don't want one.
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I don't have all the specifications for a soul, but based on some of the threats I've seen it apparently has the ability to feel pain when immersed in fire. [devil]
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Then your question makes you a troll [:K] and I do know that trolls [:K] have no soul! [:D]
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 5:35:32 PM EDT
Let's add to the list: 7) A troll asking questions that others would like to ignore. [:K] I think the sticky question of "Who has a soul?" is one of the major reasons that some folks cling to creationism. They don't see a way to reconcile human origins via natural means with human possession of an eternal, supernatural spirit that isn't found in any other species.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 5:57:24 PM EDT
My answer: None of the above!
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 6:01:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: I think the sticky question of "Who has a soul?" is one of the major reasons that some folks cling to creationism. They don't see a way to reconcile human origins via natural means with human possession of an eternal, supernatural spirit that isn't found in any other species.
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I could think of an obvious answer...that the creation of man from the dust in Genesis was an analogy for the breathing of a divine spirit or soul into an already extant hominid.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 6:16:01 PM EDT
divdoc9, You may personally believe this but, apart from chanting bits from some very old book, how can you substanciate such "insight" or "knowledge"?
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 6:44:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Originally Posted By Renamed: I think the sticky question of "Who has a soul?" is one of the major reasons that some folks cling to creationism. They don't see a way to reconcile human origins via natural means with human possession of an eternal, supernatural spirit that isn't found in any other species.
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I could think of an obvious answer...that the creation of man from the dust in Genesis was an analogy for the breathing of a divine spirit or soul into an already extant hominid.
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Not bad. In fact, it's pretty close to a possible scenario I envision as well. You DO know I'm not a literalist wrt Genesis or many "illogical" aspects in the Bible. I see analogy and parable as perfect vehicles for teaching truths that go beyond scientific verification.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 6:52:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: I think the sticky question of "Who has a soul?" is one of the major reasons that some folks cling to creationism. They don't see a way to reconcile human origins via natural means with human possession of an eternal, supernatural spirit that isn't found in any other species.
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Natural processes may have made humans in the image of animals, but God completes the "humanity" portion by making our spirits in His image. There's nothing to reconcile, for me at least, because I see no contradiction.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 6:56:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: Not bad. In fact, it's pretty close to a possible scenario I envision as well. You DO know I'm not a literalist wrt Genesis or many "illogical" aspects in the Bible. I see analogy and parable as perfect vehicles for teaching truths that go beyond scientific verification.
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Yes, I had read that under another thread and I thought you were very well spoken and your posts were well thought out.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 6:58:30 PM EDT
Everyone but YOU!![dracula]
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 7:09:14 PM EDT
Spirituality aside, the legal/political question of "Who is a person?" (the secular analog of "Who has a soul?") is an important one. Even atheists have to set boundaries for the community of individuals who have rights and responsibilities in our system of government. At one extreme are the radical PETA/ALF-types who believe that there should be no such boundaries of "speciesism" -- humans should treat frogs and crows and nematodes as equals. Or, in the more extreme views, the other species are our superiors, at least morally, since they don't damage the ecosystem as much as we do. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 7:18:03 PM EDT
Legally, I think there should be a sliding scale of "personhood." Obviously, humans should be at the top, but I think that there should be SOME legal protection for more mentally advanced species such as the great apes and cetaceans...something to protect them from being abused or used for unnecessary experimentation or slaughtered out of hand. I don't think they should be treated as human legally, but they certainly deserve more protection than a rat or a rabbit.
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