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Posted: 1/18/2002 12:07:46 PM EDT
I just finished watching Black Hawk Down. Excellent movie; I will not comment except I wonder what would have happened if Slick Willie would have let them use AC-130’s and armor.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 12:53:07 PM EDT
It was a good movie, but I was really unimpressed. Maybe I had just built it up in my head too much.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 1:01:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AcidGambit: It was a good movie, but I was really unimpressed. Maybe I had just built it up in my head too much.
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So was it the missing love triangle or the lack of a nude shower scene that ruined your day?
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 1:30:25 PM EDT
Just saw it myself. I don't think AC-130 Gunships would have helped at all. They spray in areas of 100 yards. No way you can use that for CLOSE support like the Rangers/Delta needed. I don't remember in the book where the Delta guy went back in with 3 others. I thought they drove around looking for a way to drive in and couldn't get past the roadblocks. I also don't remember the two guys from chaulk 4 getting left behind at their original position. Guess those were two of the 'movie' changes. I loved the shells raining down from the miniguns. Nothing like a hot casing in your shirt. [:D] I'll have to re-read the book before I get it on DVD.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 1:39:46 PM EDT
I am going to see it tonight....I can't wait! medcop
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 2:29:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2002 2:30:30 PM EDT by AcidGambit]
They didn't release the prisoners either, they returned them to the base. It was a good movie, but a little tamer than I had expected. Maybe the volume wasn't loud enough in the theater. The Little Birds were awsome though. Sorry, Arock, I don't go see movies like that... Perhaps you could recommend one if I ever decide to.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 2:54:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QCMGR: I wonder what would have happened if Slick Willie would have let them use AC-130’s and armor.
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We might just find out in the next few weeks.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 2:57:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2002 2:57:35 PM EDT by 5subslr5]
Originally Posted By Arock:
Originally Posted By AcidGambit: It was a good movie, but I was really unimpressed. Maybe I had just built it up in my head too much.
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So was it the missing love triangle or the lack of a nude shower scene that ruined your day?
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Confused again. I thought the love triangle was seen in the nude shower scene ?
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 3:04:47 PM EDT
Well, I just got home this afternoon from seeing it. All I can say... wow. I am now nursing a cup of tea and listening to Pink Floyd. It is going to take me abit to assimilate all that happened. It was almost surreal for me. I have to remind me that this was a true story. For me it was rolling up Saving Private Ryan, Apocalypse Now, Deer Hunter, Full Metal Jacket. But again realizing this is a true story.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 4:41:03 PM EDT
I'm hooked up for the 10 PM CST showing tonight! Woohoo... Is it too much to ask that I could bring my M4gery in with me ? [%|]
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 5:10:54 PM EDT
No don't do that, the temptation to pop off a few caps in fire support would be too strong. After the first half-hour the whole damn movie was one long firefight. Very intense. Guns included the M249, M60, M16, M4, G3, M9, M1911, MP5, AK, RPG (if you can call that a gun), LAW (same notation), minigun, M2, Krinkov, M14 and who knows what else. Not much plot really and I had trouble keeping the characters distinct in my mind, although a welcome change from drivel like Pearl Harbor. I liked the comment toward the beginning about Washington saying no go on the armor and AC-130. Gee thanks Mr. Bill . . . you noble legacy continues.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:08:15 PM EDT
For once, there was no love story, no whining cry babies, no bullshit, just 2.5 hours of firefight. They did the actual event and the book justice by leaving the Hollywood crap out of it. The movie is excellent, go see it. For once the sound of the minigus was accurate. Another realistic detail was the condition of the M4's/M16's: finish missing from the deflector, taped on slings, worn finish all over, jerryrigged camo jobs... great stuff. IMO, and I'm not in the military, this movie was the most accurate movie I have seen as far as detail on weapons. I was surprised to see so many Aimpoints, guess Delta got stuff like that though. All you guys who read the book, did any of you find yourself saying "Woah, just like in the book" several times during the movie? I know I did.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:16:36 PM EDT
Favorite part was where the Delta guy turns the recoiless on the skinny with the ma duece! Very sweet!
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:25:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AcidGambit: It was a good movie, but I was really unimpressed. Maybe I had just built it up in my head too much.
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Yep, that must be it. No other excuse for being unimpressed by it.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:26:29 PM EDT
The line that sent shivers up my spine was when Hoot said "Stop the vehicle and let me out here."
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:39:04 PM EDT
... I was on the edge of my seat throughout the entire movie. Went with a good size group of friends. The guys liked it and the girls I don't think were as impressed. ... Three things I know you guys have covered elsewhere on the boards but I can't find them now. (1) Didn't our soldiers have ACOGs then? I was surprised to see Aimpoints used. (2) Why was the union on the American flag patches on the upper right as opposed to the proper way to display on the upper left? (3) If the mission was to really take place in less time then the need for a canteen would the medics really have the supplies they did when they were trapped? ... My observation (because I'm in that business) was that the little birds "could" have played a much more active role providing cover overnight while they were awaiting the convoy. It would be disruptive and demoralizing as hell to attempt to respond to hit and run tactics when they are flying with only navigation lights. An AC130 Spectre would have been too indiscriminate in that application I believe. I know it’s Hollywood, and it may have HAD to be done that way for effect but engaging “skinnys” at the ranges depicted would have yielded much more casualties. I liked the movie. … HOOO RAHHHHH
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 9:25:40 PM EDT
Saw it tonight at 7. Wow! Just Wow! Unbelievable movie! [i]THE[/i] best movie I have seen, ever! Just wow! Excellent, Excellent movie! Some thoughts: Excellent fight scenes. Graphic is some places. I could almost feel the pain when they were looking for that artery in Smith's leg. I was exasperated when they showed the guy with is legs blown off. I got tears in my eyes 4 times when I was watching it. I hardly ever cry, but I couldn't help it. I first cried when the "skinnies" brought out the sniper and started stripping him. Such a horrible thing. It just really got to me. They didn't show him getting dragged through the streets, but I knew that was what would happen. Then I teared up when Smith died on the table. That was such a sad scene. Poor guy. Then I welled up at the end as the voice over was going. Finally, I started streaming tears when they showed the names of the men who died. Misguided thought they were, I still honor their memories. As I was watching, all I could think was that these men didn't have to die. They didn't have to suffer. We should've stayed out of foreign entanglements. And who ended up rescuing the "mighty" American military? Pakistanis under the authority of the UN!!! American men only have one Commander and Chief, and he nor any part of the government delegate that authority to any other military force or commander. Damn UN. I guess this is interventionism though. Count me out! Another thing that gets me is that this really happened. This wasn't just some fake, made up, hollywood movie: this actually occured, these men suffered and died. This men followed orders, wrong though they may have been, and did their job. I place the blame on Clinton and all of his interventionist lovers. Definitely going to see it again. And I will be picking up the DVD when it comes out.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 9:49:56 PM EDT
One of the best and worst movies I've ever seen. Had it been a typical Bruckheimer fictional movie it would have been one of the best movies off all time, but since it was real it was very painful to watch at times. Everyone should see it and see what those poor guys went through. One question though; I heard a rumor that one of the Delta Force guys portrayed in the movie is server a 30 year sentence as a child molester. Is that true and if so, which guy was he in the movie? I don't think it's Hoot as the original book auther says Hoot is currently serving in Afghanistan so which one was it? A couple of striking things about the movie, when those two Delta snipers went in to try and defend Durrant and his crew, even though they knew they were probably going to die doing it, what heros. And when Hoot told the driver of the Humvee to stop the car so he could get out and go in on foot. Amazing courage under pressure. crashburnrepeat
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 10:08:22 PM EDT
I'm going to see it tomorrow. Cant wait!!!
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 10:18:03 PM EDT
It was very good in some ways, but annoying in others. Every damn hollywood movie has a shot of vehicles driving in convoy with helicopters lined up at 20 feet over the column. It drives me insane. I didn't like the hollywood crap of them taking over the recoiless rifle and the technicals all over the place. I'd have preferred it if they had stuck exactly to the firefights described in the book. This would have made it less filmable, though, since a lot of the firefight scenes would have involved taking fire from someplace that no one really identifies. It was good in other ways--the message was right.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 10:26:24 PM EDT
Saw it tonight. Very intense movie. Very realistic even allowing for those things that have to be done for making a movie. I laughed, I (almost) cried, and I was sad and angry at times. An emotional roller coaster. A great movie. Glad I read the book first since it gives a lot of detail not shown (or needed) in the movie. I wonder though, after the unwashed masses see it, will they call for isolationism, or Teddy's BIG STICK. One thing that becomes clear after reading the book and then seeing it on the big screen is that if our government is going to use the military it must ALWAYS be commited to the safety and well being of the troops who do the dirty work and not blow off our boys as being so much better than the other guys that they do not need all means at their disposal to insure the utmost success of a given mission.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 10:26:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QCMGR: I just finished watching Black Hawk Down. Excellent movie; I will not comment except I wonder what would have happened if Slick Willie would have let them use AC-130’s and armor.
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I just saw it as well and I am very impressed. I had the same thought as you, walking out of the theater. AC-130's would have done the trick for all those bastards on the rooftops. one question: the film said 19 dead americans, but I thought it was 18?
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 10:40:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2002 10:43:55 PM EDT by JIMBEAM]
Crash it isn't a Delta Guy that is prison it was one of the Rangers. They changed the name of his character. It has been some time since I read the book but I think it was the clerk guy. If I am wrong someone correct me. I just saw the flim and thought it was done very well. I may be able to address the question concerning why the medics had all there stuff. My brother was a Navy Corpsman in a USMC unit. He carried a lot of extra shit including extra medical stuff and plenty of water.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 10:46:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 11:08:56 PM EDT
libby, Why don't you RTFB or look into the various resources available on the subject. The wheeled APCs were Malaysian and the M48's (M60A1s in the movie) were Pakistani. Your feeble attempts to insult the US military show either your ignorance, or a deliberate attempt to slur our guys at the expense of the truth. If the Clinton Administration had approved light armor and AC130 support, UN assistance would not have been necessary. It was the civilian NCA that screwed up, not the military. What's really pathetic is your attempt to advance your own misguided, warmed-over, isolationist, BS political rant with an obviously insincere expression of sympathy for those guys who displayed more courage, honor, integrity and loyalty in those 15 hours than you will in your entire life ten times over.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 11:19:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2002 11:20:09 PM EDT by HBAR16]
Awesome movie, even allowing for Hollyweird. Glad I didn't bring my M4gery, the temptation WOULD have been pretty strong, especially when they were stripping the body outside the downed 'Hawk. I enjoyed it on the same visceral level that I enjoyed Saving Private Ryan. Very strong response to both movies. I really really felt for Jamie Smith, especially the scene where the medic was trying to pull down his femoral artery. Nitpick - I didn't see a lot of good use of cover and concealment by the Rangers. Of course just seeing muzzle flashes doesn't make for a very entertaining movie. :> I'll probably see it again and buy the DVD when it comes out. [^] [^]
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 11:27:09 PM EDT
It was almst too stressful and painful to watch at times. I had read the book, so I felt I knew some of the characters well. It truly had to be the worst firefight for American forces since Nam. Good movie, but surely not for the weak of heart. BTW, we had recruiters talk to us before the movie. I wonder if they signed anybody up.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 11:42:54 PM EDT
I am PISSED!...I had plans to go see it tonight...however, I got called into work! Oh well, I am going tomorrow. hmmmm, somehow my pager must have got turned off and my cell phone battery is dead..yea..that will work! medcop
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 1:02:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JIMBEAM: Crash it isn't a Delta Guy that is prison it was one of the Rangers. They changed the name of his character. It has been some time since I read the book but I think it was the clerk guy. If I am wrong someone correct me.
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You are thinking of Stebbins, my old XO(before the Ranger incident) in the New York Army National Guard. My paper just did a story on him today. Of course, they screwed the story up somewhat: [URL]http://www.theithacajournal.com/news/stories/20020118/topstories/1487258.html[/URL]
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 1:13:10 AM EDT
I [b]really[/b] liked the film. Not as good as the book (IMO), but very close. I know I will be going to see it again soon. I was really happy to see the HUGE lines of people waiting to see the movie (lots of younger college people). Tyler
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 1:29:14 AM EDT
so THATS why they changed the name of the Stebbins character!!!!!
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 4:15:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_G: libby, Why don't you RTFB or look into the various resources available on the subject. The wheeled APCs were Malaysian and the M48's (M60A1s in the movie) were Pakistani.
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I do plan on getting the book. My mistake on who's armor it was.
Your feeble attempts to insult the US military show either your ignorance, or a deliberate attempt to slur our guys at the expense of the truth. If the Clinton Administration had approved light armor and AC130 support, UN assistance would not have been necessary. It was the civilian NCA that screwed up, not the military.
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I am not attempting to insult the military. I am insulting the leaders who screwed up, and those who would send the honorable men in to those situations.
What's really pathetic is your attempt to advance your own misguided, warmed-over, isolationist, BS political rant with an obviously insincere expression of sympathy for those guys who displayed more courage, honor, integrity and loyalty in those 15 hours than you will in your entire life ten times over.
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Again, it is not isolationist. It is anti-statism. What is pathetic about you is you believe in sending men to die for misguided reasons.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 4:24:01 PM EDT
MILITARY WEAPONS EXPERTS I have a friend who wanted to know what kind of weapon it was that Delta Force used to eliminate that truck mounted rocket launcher the Somalis were using. I can't remember but he said you see them handling the weapon but do not see the projectile like during the other scenes. Thanks
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 4:33:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2002 4:34:45 PM EDT by SF]
Originally Posted By nightstalker: MILITARY WEAPONS EXPERTS I have a friend who wanted to know what kind of weapon it was that Delta Force used to eliminate that truck mounted rocket launcher the Somalis were using. I can't remember but he said you see them handling the weapon but do not see the projectile like during the other scenes. Thanks
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They took the Soviet recoilless rifle crew silently (knives and garrottes??) and used it to eliminate the heavy machine gun. I do not remember this from the book or the AAR either, could be Hollywood writing.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 4:42:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2002 4:43:53 PM EDT by ken2483]
One thing no one seems to recall about the Klinton Administration involvement in this cluster was that they had sanctioned former President Carter to negotiate w/ Aidid prior to this actual incident occurring. Of course, while Carter was negotiating w/ Aidid, Klinton "approved" the use of Task Force Ranger and the Delta Force to capture Aidid. When one of the fathers of a slain Ranger asked Klinton if this was true and why he still sent in the military when there were "negotiations" going on...Klinton's response (first of all "yes" we were in discussions w/ Aidid) was "You know, I asked the very same question". Goes to show you what a fucken asshole Klinton really was (STILL IS!). That's my 2 cents.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 5:24:56 PM EDT
All I have to say is that Clinton and his stupid advisors are responsible for 19 American boys' lives. He should have been filling out the paperwork for Bradleys and M1s instead of chasing Monica around the oval office.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 5:33:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2002 6:46:30 PM EDT by idaho-ar15]
Just got home from seeing the movie. INCREDIBLE!! I appreciatred the no BS filming of this one with out the love story mixed in. Next time I'll have to take some 100 mph tape with me to gag the fat ass and his wife behind me who had to explain every freakin thing during the movie at the top of their lungs.[stick] idaho-ar15
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 5:36:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2002 5:43:54 PM EDT by uglygun]
I have only been home for about the past 20 minutes after having just watched BHD at the local theater, personally for me the movie did a very good job of drawing me in and pretty much making me feel numb by the end of the movie. I need a few beers, part because of the heart felt impact the movie left on me because I was already familiar with the circumstances of the event. Also part because of the reactions I witnessed by a few people in the audience who didn't take the movie quite seriously enough during certain portions of the movie, perhaps if they had known what was coming next they wouldn't have laughed.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 5:39:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By idaho-ar15: Just got home from seeing the movie. INCREDIBLE!! I appreciatred the no BS filming of this one with out the love story mixed in. Next time I'll have to take some 100 mph tape with me to gag the fat ass and wife behind me who had to explain every freakin thing during the movie.[stick] idaho-ar15
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I was pissed my wife didn't want to go since I knew several of the guys who were there. Maybe I was lucky?
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 5:58:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2002 6:03:52 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf: ... I was on the edge of my seat throughout the entire movie. Went with a good size group of friends. The guys liked it and the girls I don't think were as impressed. ... Three things I know you guys have covered elsewhere on the boards but I can't find them now. (1) Didn't our soldiers have ACOGs then? I was surprised to see Aimpoints used.
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I think they did, it is the reason that ACOG-NSN's have the back-up sites, to difficult to use the optic during CQB. I could be wrong, little help if someone knows more.
(2) Why was the union on the American flag patches on the upper right as opposed to the proper way to display on the upper left?
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The way the flag is displayed depends on which shoulder it is on.......... That's why it is usually on the other side, Army unit shoulder patches generally prevent that......
(3) If the mission was to really take place in less time then the need for a canteen would the medics really have the supplies they did when they were trapped?
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Yes, they generally have "kits", and if you are a medic and you say "I didn't bring most of my stuff because......." you will need surgery to have your CO's boot removed from your......well you know, not to mention dereliction of duty charges.
... My observation (because I'm in that business) was that the little birds "could" have played a much more active role providing cover overnight while they were awaiting the convoy. It would be disruptive and demoralizing as hell to attempt to respond to hit and run tactics when they are flying with only navigation lights. An AC130 Spectre would have been too indiscriminate in that application I believe. I know it’s Hollywood, and it may have HAD to be done that way for effect but engaging “skinnys” at the ranges depicted would have yielded much more casualties. I liked the movie. … HOOO RAHHHHH
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I think the limiting factor is the amount of ammo they could carry. Also I don't think it was exactly a "free fire zone". Plus I don't think the ground forces were all concentrated (US) so target ID was still critical. Probably would have been a different story if instead of Hummer's and 5 ton trucks, they had M1 and M2/M3's for the convoy, and maybe an engineer version M1. Of course the terrain doesn't look like a good tactical situation to employ armor. Shoot and scoot would limit the "skinny's" ability to set up RPG-7 shots from above tho'
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 6:10:32 PM EDT
I saw the movie last night. If I closed my eyes during the firefight scene, I could have sworn I was at Knob Creek. The noise of automatic weapons was accurately captured by the film. I don't know that plot or storyline was as important to the film as was the recreation of battle. I've never seen a war film that made me feel like I was in the middle of hell like BHD did.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 6:27:06 PM EDT
I hated it. Why didn't Bruckheimer get the box-office guaranteed Michael Bay to direct? Why didn't we get to see the Somalians' point of view? Why weren't there more African-Americans in the Delta squad? Why wasn't Ben Affleck cast as the general? Where was the woman Ben Alleck was supposed to fall in love with? I am bitterly disappointed. Some sorry excuse of a movie this is.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 6:30:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raven: I hated it. Why didn't Bruckheimer get the box-office guaranteed Michael Bay to direct? Why didn't we get to see the Somalians' point of view? Why weren't there more African-Americans in the Delta squad? Why wasn't Ben Affleck cast as the general? Where was the woman Ben Alleck was supposed to fall in love with? I am bitterly disappointed. Some sorry excuse of a movie this is.
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I think you have this movie confused with the Disney flick "Pearl Harbor." ;-) Good, very good!
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 1:14:52 AM EDT
Oly, We did quite well in Hue City with M48's during Tet 68. Why would the more advanced M1A1 find it 'unadvantagous' to fight in a city. With the M48, you actually had to worry about being penetrated by RPG-7's and SPG-9's. They fail totally against the front OR SIDE of a M1A1. Only the top and tail are vulnerable, and with the M1's penetration by a weapon that small won't necessacerily put the tank out of comission. Besides, covering the tops and tails of the tanks are what the infantry are supposed to be doing. The Bradleys too come to think of it, their Bushmasters elevate to 60deg. The old 20mm Vulcan guns on M113's are the BEST for this kind of suppresion though, that is why the Israelis still keep theirs. Infantry without armor in MOUT are going to take high casualties. They need the armor to hide behind and the large caliber direct fire artillery to destroy barracaded positions. Being alowed to use your mortars would have been a big help too. Its because of Somalia the Ranger Bn HQ compaines have acquired some of the new 120mm mortars. A couple 45 pound projectiles comming through the roof would have silenced a number of troublesome positions in Mog.
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