Dk-Prof,

I suggest you take a look at a fetus at ten weeks.  Nearly every detail can be seen (including finger nails).

Most clinics will not allow an abortion before twelve weeks.

Even if you take a physical anthropological perspective to the argument ("ontongeny recapitulates phylogeny" (sp?)) these "cells" look aweful human.

I believe there are many millions, including an exgirlfriend of mine, that have KILLED there own children under the misinformation and fasade of lies people like you spread.  

I believe these "pro-choice" arguments also perpetuate themselves in those who have executed/terminated/destroyed/killed their pregnancies/fetus/children/babies.

I have met many women who committed abortions that have admitted they have to expunge the possibility of contemplating that they killed a life and not a pregnancy/cells.  

There are absolutes and they must be respected.  
If they are not, there are consequences.  

Relativism and post-modernist liberal theory pisses in the face of these absolutes.

And you simply tote their line.


If someone is gonna be killed, I prefer to target those that do wrong (like Talis), not babies that are trapped in the womb.

Maybe you (and your political buddies) think otherwise.

MCCCC

The thing that irritates me about pro-choice people is they want all the benefits of freedom of choice, but are unwilling to accept the responsibilities. Just like you don't yell fire in a crowded movie theater, you cannot go around screwing like a rabbit and expect the state to cover the bill. I am against abortion for moral reasons, but I have no problem with birth control. Young people make mistakes, sure, but there are also plenty of young adults have abortions out of convenience as opposed to out of perceived "need". Therefore, I would argue that if you find yourself in the situation where you need an abortion, you should have the right to one abortion in your lifetime and that's that. Following the abortion, the state will have the right to shove a Norplant in your arm so you will remain pregnancy free for 5 years. As for the men, any man who impregnates a woman whom he cannot support, or that results in an abortion, should have the male version of Norplant shoved in his arm when such drugs are available for men. Now, is that too mean spirited for you pro-choice people?

[b]When does the heart begin to beat?[/b]
At 18 days [when the mother is only four days late for her first menstrual period], and by 21 days it is pumping, through a closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from that of the mother.


[b]When is the brain functioning?[/b]
Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG).


[b]When does the developing baby first move?[/b]
"In the sixth to seventh weeks. . . . If the area of the lips is gently stroked, the child responds by bending the upper body to one side and making a quick backward motion with his arms. This is called a ‘total pattern response’ because it involves most of the body, rather than a local part."
At eight weeks, "if we tickle the baby’s nose, he will flex his head backwards away from the stimulus."

[b]When are all his body systems present?[/b]
By eight weeks.


[b]How about nine weeks?[/b]
At nine to ten weeks, he squints, swallows, moves his tongue, and if you stroke his palm, will make a tight fist.
By nine weeks he will "bend his fingers round an object in the palm of his hand."

[b]When does he start to breathe?[/b]
"By 11 to 12 weeks (3 months), he is breathing fluid steadily and continues so until birth. At birth, he will breathe air. He does not drown by breathing fluid within his mother, because he obtains his oxygen from his umbilical cord. This breathing develops the organs of respiration."

[b]Can he cry?[/b]
Although the watery environment in which he lives presents small opportunity for crying, which does require air, the unborn knows how to cry, and given a chance to do so, he will. A doctor

". . . injected an air bubble into the baby’s amniotic sac and then took x-rays. It so happened that the air bubble covered the baby’s face. The whole procedure had no doubt given the little fellow quite a bit of jostling about, and the moment that he had air to inhale and exhale they heard the clear sound of a protesting wail emitting from the uterus. Late that same night, the mother awakened her doctor with a telephone call, to report that when she lay down to sleep the air bubble got over the baby’s head again, and he was crying so loudly he was keeping both her and her husband awake. The doctor advised her to prop herself upright with pillows so that the air could not reach the baby’s head, which was by now in the lower part of the uterus."

[b]Does the unborn baby dream?[/b]
Using ultrasound techniques, it was first shown that REM (rapid eye movements) which are characteristic of active dream states have been demonstrated at 23 weeks.
REM have since been recorded 17 weeks after conception.

[b]Does he/she think?[/b]
We now know that the unborn child is an aware, reacting human being who from the sixth month on (and perhaps earlier) leads an active emotional life.
The fetus can, on a primitive level, even learn in utero.

[b]Can he/she feel pain?[/b]
Yes, by the 8th week and perhaps earlier. By this age the neuroanatomic structures are present. What is needed is (1) a sensory nerve to feel the pain and send a message to (2) the thalamus, a part of the base of the brain, and (3) motor nerves that send a message to that area. These are present by 8 weeks. Without doubt a abortion is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant.


[b]What of The Silent Scream?[/b]
A Realtime ultrasound video tape and movie of a 12-week suction abortion is commercially available as, The Silent Scream, narrated by Dr. B. Nathanson, a former abortionist. It dramatically, but factually, shows the pre-born baby dodging the suction instrument time after time, while its heartbeat doubles in rate. When finally caught, its body being dismembered, the baby’s mouth clearly opens wide — hence, the title (available from American Portrait Films, P.O. Box 19266, Cleveland, OH 44119, 216-531-8600).

For the record: I have never had nor even considered having an abortion.
Also for the record: Unwanted and ignored children grow to become the dregs of society in most cases. We don't need any more out of control scum in this country. I think there should be MORE abortions, especially of pregnancies that result in ignored little beasts that grow to become sociopaths. This covers ALL socio-economic groups, as the examples I am thinking of would include such kids as Klebold and Harris.
If you KNOW you either don't have time for, or don't WANT a kid, do us all a favor, and abort it, before it kills someone else's kids that ARE wanted and loved.

You go girl!!

Hey,

I have an idea.  Put the kid up for adoption.  My wife and I have two kids.  Looking at them, it comes down to this for me.  The killing of a kid, embryo, clump of cells, whatever the feel-good word is for the sake of convenience is about as bent an action as I can imagine.  You abort, you place your needs above those of an individual that has no say.  That individual whould have grown up to have friends, family and maybe kids of their own.  They never get the chance because they showed up too early, unexpected or just outside of a currently enjoyed lifestyle.  As I said at the top.  You don't want the kid?  Give it to someone that does.  Just don't kill them off.  Call it any pretty cream-puff word you want.  It's still ending a life.

Adoption.

Abortion is unjustified homicide and an unacceptable "solution" to the "problem" of pregnancy.  Any arguments to the contrary fall apart on themselves upon the subjection of ANY amount of thought/logic.  Hey, why not make retroactive abortions legal too?  Hell, why is murder even illegal?  It's not a person, it's a choice!  And how dare anyone tell me what to do with someone else's body!  My body my choice my ass!  The fetus, the BABY, is NOT YOUR BODY!!!  Why is that so hard to admit/see for some people!  It is NOT that I want to dictate what a woman does with her body, as a Libertarian I believe you've got a right to your body.  But the catch is, the baby is NOT YOUR BODY, DUH!!!  Once you admit, as you must, that it is the taking of a life for convenience all bets are off.

Rant off, and add yet another into the log of abortion debate diatribes.  It'll never be solved, as there will always be those who believe it's a life, and those who believe it's a clump of meaninglessness.  I just hope "my" side gets control, and we stop the retail killing of our innocent children.  If people get hurt seeking out "back-alley" abortions, I frankly couldn't care less.  That injury or death would be part and parcel to the commission of a murder, in my opinion.

Anybody have the stats on how many abortions have been performed?  Let's say just in this country since the ruling.  "Did you know that 37% of all statistics are made up on the spot"

I don't have a stat (I'm sure someone does) but it's the #1 "voluntary surgical procedure" done today.  By a wide margin, IIRC.

Well according to the CDC through the 80's and 90's looks like it averages about 1.3 million [i]legal[/i] abortions a year.  So over 25 years that would be 32,500,000 unwanted births.  Add that to our current population.

Well said.

Wow!  I never thought of it that way!  Now that I have that perspective, I sure am glad we killed all those damned kids!  Heck, why did we stop Hitler?  I say fire up the ovens!  Oh, you're right, they already are fired up.  They're called Abortion clinics, and people PAY for the murders now!  But that perspective on population helped!

Wonder how long THIS thread'll last[;)]

Well since you asked, I am with Marge Schott (former Cincinatti Reds owner) on this one that "Hitler was a reasonable fellow, who indeed did good things for the Germans until he went "nuts,"  Better yet ask your god, wasn't Hitler a cristian?

Well since you asked, I am with Marge Schott (former Cincinatti Reds owner) on this one that "Hitler was a reasonable fellow, who indeed did good things for the Germans until he went "nuts,"  Better yet ask your god, wasn't Hitler a cristian?[/quote]

I'd ask him, but he tends not to respond to me queeries.  Additionally, I used no theological reasoning in my stance.  The abortion "issue" is not one of religion, but of humanity.

I would disagree totally as your response is based upon your religious views.  If it was a [i]crime[/i] against humanity it would be illegal.

And I, gunrunner, would disagree with your disagreement.  How do you know what my response is based on?  Been in my head lately?  Your last statement is core to the issue, that being the question of whether it is a crime against humanity.  Well, I believe it is, as I believe that abortion is the retail killing of a child.  What does that have to do with relegion?  You could be athieistic and hold this view.  Is that murder, outside of the womb, is illegal a religious tenet, or one of common sence?  Good, so now all we have to do is wrestle over the issue of inside the womb murder.

Hitler, a Christian? Don't make me laugh!

What 'Christian' activities was Hitler noted for? How did Hitler glorify Jesus?

You've obviously never read much about Hitler and the Third Reich.

At all.

Eric The(Foolishness,SimpleFoolishness)Hun[>]:)]

Well I am human and don't have a problem with it. Since there aren't enough humans that don't have a big enough problem with it to make it illegal, I would say it is not an issue of humanity.  Are our rapidly dissappearing gun rights an assault against humanity?  I would say yes but, I am biased because of my beliefs; just as you are about the issue of abortion.  If gun rights were a true issue of humanity to the sheeple, it would not be happening.  In the minority as you and I are on gun rights issues and as you are on abortion it is based on individual beliefs.

1(WhereTheHellIsTheHun?)Gunrunner

And just how much of a market is there for adopting mixed race, possibly brain damaged crack babies?
Adoptive parents seem to be seeking a better quality of raw material to sacrifice their lives to.
If they don't get adopted, they become wards of the state, raised in group homes, and eventually becoming more sociopaths.
*I* don't want to waste my tax dollars raising them, when a fast $350 (abortion) could solve the problem before it starts.
Whack em. Nobody wants them, not even their mothers.

There ya are.  It takes 'christian' activities and you have to glorify jesus to be a christian?  Do a search on it - it seems to be a big question.

1(IKnewThereWereHoopsButJeez)Gunrunner

Rights are, much like money and government, an [i]idea[/i].  They are a collective delusion, an agreed upon mental condition of the masses.  Look back through history for the illustration of this.  As EricThe(antiabortionbutprochoice)Hun and I discussed, both the Greeks and the Romans practiced exposure - by our lights that's murder most foul.  

Abortion, gun rights, and even the existence God are the same.   Perhaps that's why we have so much fun (and so much anger) playing with them.  Whenever the collective delusion loses its overwhelming majority in any society, that society is at risk.  

The question is, will we figure it out peacefully, or will the SHTF?

(Edited because I [i]know[/i] "loses" is spelled with only one "o".)

Justifying it with the money arguement.  Neat.  Here's a money arguement.  How much does a pack of pills cost or a piece of latex?  Probably a ton less than years of public funding for abortion clinics.  Oh, but that's no problem.  They were probably all destined to be half-wits and crack babies.  Or maybe even mentally retarded.  Hey didn't some German guy have a treatment for that a while back?  To clean out society of undesirables?  Sorry, I don't see much of a difference.  However, I walked down the isle with my parents.  Sure glad that society had a different opinion of abortion in the sixties.  Hooked on Phonics really did wonders for this half-wit.

Boy, this thread certainly petered out.  Was it something I said?

It was time.......... On the other hand I also will lead myself to believe that I made such valid points that I am the victor [:D]

1902

The teddy bear is created by a Russian immigrant to the USA, after seeing a newspaper cartoon depicting President Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt. Automatic vending machine invented. Willis Carrier invents the air conditioner.