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6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 1/18/2002 5:13:06 AM EDT
I don't usually read Newsweek, but here is a halfway decent article: How to Save the Arab World http://[url]www.msnbc.com/news/673522.asp[/url] AR15.com Disclaimer: I am not a Muslim, Arab, Jew, Israeli, Turk, Palestinian, Jordanian, Druze, Ashkenazim or Sephardim sympathizer. No houses were bulldozed in the writing of this article [:D] If you wish to simply erase that part of the world, you may not care to read this article, so please move on.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 5:17:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ckapsl: If you wish to simply erase that part of the world, you may not care to read this article, so please move on.
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That caveat eliminates QUITE A FEW from this forum.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 5:44:30 AM EDT
Great article! Now let's see who might have the [i]cajones[/i] to test out the theory! Eric The(UnfearfulOfTheAlternative)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 6:29:12 AM EDT
From the article:
When President Bill Clinton urged Yasir Arafat to sign on to the Camp David peace plan in July 2001, Arafat is reported to have responded with words to the effect, “If I do what you want, Hamas will be in power tomorrow.”
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Did I miss something or was Clinton no longer president in July 2001? [>:/]
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 6:41:06 AM EDT
Excellent article.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 7:01:34 AM EDT
A very thoughtful and insightful article. Definitely options that need to be explored. The thought that oppression breeds fundamentalism and that if you eliminate (or reduce) oppression that fundamentalism also diminishes. People tend not to squirm as much when they're not under pressure.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 7:46:17 AM EDT
The reality of the situation is that in order to have freedoms and democracy similar to those found in First world Nations several things must happen: (1.) You must have economic reforms where a Middle Class small business owners can thrive. (ie. Break up Monopolies, institute Tax Policies that encourage the growth of Small Businesses). Comment: This is very painful for the super wealthy who rely upon their Monopolies. (2.) You must have an enforced separation between church and state. (3.) You must have a constitution which protects the rights of those who are in the Minority (Freedom of Speech, Right to Bear Arms, etc.) (4.) You must have free elections and a fair process in vote counting, and you must be able to limit to some degree the influence that Lobbying organizations (or individuals) have over politicians by bribing them through "campaign contributions". (5.) You must enforce equality between the Sexes and Religious Minorities in public. (6.) In the beginning you must "Terrorize" the Terrorists by killing them wholesale. Once their ranks have been thinned then the other policies will have a chance at being implemented and staying in force. Historically it should be noted that the man who created Modern Turkey (Ataturk) did these things. And the result was a fairly stable country in which both Muslims and Non-Muslims are now able to live in. And Women can still enjoy western style freedoms. Historical Differences: Ataturk also got rid of the Arabic alphabet and adopted the Roman Alphabet with some modifications which made reading and writing easier to learn and master. Ataturk was NOT democratically elected. He was a ruthless dictator who decided he wanted to build a constitutional republic, and he saw that Islamic Fundamentalism was his greatest roadblock towards that goal. So like a Gardner pulling up weeds and killing golphers he butchered anyone who got in his way. (including some 2 Million Armenians whom he saw as a threat).
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:26:47 AM EDT
I was listening to an Pakistani physicist talking about Arab hate and 9/11 the other day, and he had the opposite opinion. While he totally rejects the reaction of the US inasmuch as the terrorism of OBL, he recognizes that the current condition of the Arab world was brought on by the direction of Muslim theology that took root 700 years ago, which rejected rationalism. His opinion was that the idea of an Islamic state was a complete and utter failure, and that if the Arab world wanted any sort of improvement, they had to establish secular democracies. You can't allow fundamentalists to have power, because as soon as they seize power they would dismantle the democracy.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 11:40:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Great article! Now let's see who might have the [i]cajones[/i] to test out the theory!
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Well, we Americans have demonstrated our cajones (or the presence of them anyway[:D]) a few times over the last 225 years. I do not believe that America has any [b]obligation[/b] to help fix the Arab world. I do believe that it is in our [b]self-interest[/b] to help do so. We are doing well at eliminating the current crop of crazies, but if we do not take a look at the soil in which they grow, we will have to deal with another crop in a few years. We were able to make significant changes to Germany and Japan after WWII. Of course, we were literally and completely in control of those defeated and surrendered nations. Still, I think that the Arab problem can be fixed in 20 - 30 years. The fundamentalist mentality thrives in the middle of poverty and repression. The mullahs claim to offer a way out. The average peasant, lacking better options, follows them. We need to break the cycle.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 12:19:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ckapsl: The fundamentalist mentality thrives in the middle of poverty and repression. The mullahs claim to offer a way out. The average peasant, lacking better options, follows them. We need to break the cycle.
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You affix no labels. You do not incite to riot. Worse you use reason. Clearly your post must be and will be ignored. (A very few years ago you might have used this exact structure to discuss communism.) [smoke]
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 12:38:58 PM EDT
The fundamentalist mentality thrives in the middle of poverty and repression.
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On the other hand, though, several of the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks were members of the middle class with Western educations. They weren't recruited from the slums of Cairo.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 12:41:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed:
The fundamentalist mentality thrives in the middle of poverty and repression.
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On the other hand, though, several of the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks were members of the middle class with Western educations. They weren't recruited from the slums of Cairo.
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Facts, unarguable facts.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 1:16:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97: The reality of the situation is that in order to have freedoms and democracy similar to those found in First world Nations several things must happen: (Big snip)
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You left out: The populace must be educated in and actually want it. Apathy and ignorance leaves the door open for opportunists (as we see here).
Ataturk was NOT democratically elected. He was a ruthless dictator who decided he wanted to build a constitutional republic, and he saw that Islamic Fundamentalism was his greatest roadblock towards that goal. So like a Gardner pulling up weeds and killing golphers he butchered anyone who got in his way. (including some 2 Million Armenians whom he saw as a threat).
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Which just goes to prove what I've believed all along - the best form of government is the Competent Benign Dictatorship. Unfortunately, Competent Benign Dictators are few and far between, and often offed by Competent Evil Dictators who get to take the reigns (pun intended).
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 1:50:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed:
The fundamentalist mentality thrives in the middle of poverty and repression.
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On the other hand, though, several of the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks were members of the middle class with Western educations. They weren't recruited from the slums of Cairo.
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Alas, there are exceptions to every rule. We are presently dealing with the 9/11 people by exterminating them and those who gave them shelter. That is the way to go. But reducing fundamentalism at large should also be helpful in reducing the numbers of wealthy people drawn to extremism. Unfortunately, there is no one strategy which will work in every situation. We have to be flexible and adaptive.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 11:11:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97: The reality of the situation is that in order to have freedoms and democracy similar to those found in First world Nations several things must happen: (1.) You must have economic reforms where a Middle Class small business owners can thrive. (ie. Break up Monopolies, institute Tax Policies that encourage the growth of Small Businesses). Comment: This is very painful for the super wealthy who rely upon their Monopolies.
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You mean like eliminating laws and taxes?
(2.) You must have an enforced separation between church and state.
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Like Britain, with its (formerly) monarch-imposed Church of England? Or do you mean like Sweden, which has the Lutheran Church maintaining registration of the population? Or are you thinking of Italy, with its long history of Catholicism?
(3.) You must have a constitution which protects the rights of those who are in the Minority (Freedom of Speech, Right to Bear Arms, etc.)
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Ah, like Canada! Which has neither of these.
(4.) You must have free elections and a fair process in vote counting, and you must be able to limit to some degree the influence that Lobbying organizations (or individuals) have over politicians by bribing them through "campaign contributions".
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Like Florida?
(5.) You must enforce equality between the Sexes and Religious Minorities in public.
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Just like the U.S. had before 1920?
(6.) In the beginning you must "Terrorize" the Terrorists by killing them wholesale. Once their ranks have been thinned then the other policies will have a chance at being implemented and staying in force.
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Sounds a lot like South Africa.
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