You're probably right.  Those who take the initiative to learn and know the truth will seek it out wherever they can, though obviously not on this forum.  

I just saw a gross lack of understanding represented here, and had to take issue.

Point taken.

SOL

Flame me all want guys, no problem though, I move forward.

As for my real name, check out the Sunday 23 MAR 97 edition, front page and more of the Florida Ft. Pierce Tribune, guess which one I am, then swallow your own nu_s. Then there are many, many news casts (mainstream) that show me in a good light as a patriot, then there is an upcoming documentary on patriots, featuring none other than little ole me, gee, I wonder why? Surely not because I lack the balls to be in ANYONES face, been there, done that, 4 honorable discharges, service connected injuries, illness, and still full of piss and vinegar, for the unweary!

For the record my first oath to protect and defend the constitution was in 1966, I hold that oath as more important than anything, and I mean, anything! So understand that I say what I mean, and mean exactly what I say, and in their face too!

No wacko militia here as some idiot stated in an earlier post, by the way, define wacko militia!

"In the beginning of a change, The Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." M.Twain

By the way, this will be my last response on this subject! It was mean as, food for thought, and not sedition! Try another!

When do we start?!
Sounds like we could make a squad out of the members who responded here. I, for one, love my country but despise my government and for whatever its worth also believe that our government can be defeated.

When do we start?!
Sounds like we could make a squad out of the members who responded here. I, for one, love my country but despise my government and for whatever its worth also believe that our government can be defeated.

Andreusan, for what it's worth, I thought the subject was an excellent choice for a general discussion.

I had visited this website long before I ever registered and was quite impressed by what I had read here. It seemed that everyone was well informed on the technical aspect of firearms and with the political side of the equation, as well.

Now you've brought up a subject matter that I am quite certain every one of us at one time or the other has considered, and reconsidered.

[i]'What would it take', 'What would be my response', 'Who could I count on', 'What are the chances...'[/i] and on and on.

If others find the discussion ludicrous, that's their problem, but I believe it's imperative that we think this matter out carefully, since so much is at stake.

Besides, if there is nothing to it, then we have lost nothing.

What I want to know is - why does anyone think they NEED a thirty round magazine???  Why does anyone NEED a rifle that can take down a man-sized target at 300-400-500+ yards???  Why does anyone think they NEED more firearms than they can possibly ever wear out in a lifetime???

I'll tell you why I need these items, because there are others who think I don't need them at all, shouldn't have them, and are quite willing to use the force of law to take them from me.

[i] Si vis pacem, para bellum.[/i] If you desire peace, prepare for war.

Call me anything you want but there is 90 million gun owners in this country!!!!! My vote don't count is B.S. 90 million is enough to change any election. If it doesn't God help us. I will not give up my fredoms. Damn it I fought for my country and the constitution. I will not surrender any part of it.

You want men? Men to stand up for their rights?  Well then let me tell you a story..and mind you, I shoot my AR15 primarily in competition, and I also like "beer, football, and Survivor":

Once upon a time, actually only about 3 weeks ago, my apartment complex (a 'college complex' about 1/2 mile from Auburn U. where I get my edumikashun) got wind of my owning a rifle, an 'assault rifle' as those hellfire and brimstone bible toting zealots call them (no offense to religion, just the people who fit the above description).  I suppose this came about when they held for me a shipped box of my 500 rounds of FMJ reman. 55gr's, my run of the mill range bullet, the box saying "Small Arms Ammunition".  Well, seeing this the management automatically assumed I had a weapon of some sort...wow good move sherlocks, did yall think of that one all by yourselves now?  These are the same folks that won't allow paintballs or guns inside people's apartments, as they are "weapons".  When they said something about how they might not let me, oh, resign my lease because I had a weapon on the premises, I told them that it was either keep it inside my house, or keep it inside my car, where i take it both to the university property (bad idea) and where i work at the local high school (even worse idea, especially looking at recent california events).  I then explained to them that you can have all the "no pets, balcony trash laying around, drugs, mafia underlords, midgets, pornstars, berkinstocks, and all the other crazy nonsense" rules that you'd like, I don't care.  But when you take away my gun, then you went to far...how far you say?  Far enough for me to call my local Auburn police station, for sure.  And after explaining to the nice office on the phone, "Look, where would you rather have me keep my weapon, in my car when i go on campus everyday and to the highschool where all those innocent children are, or in the privacy and safety of my own home where it's away from doing any harm?"

And what do you know, when you put things in perspective for them, those nice LEO's take your side.  I didn't say "damn the Man", I said "let the Man be on my side for once".  And lo and behold, the Man was.  I didn't go as so far into legal issues as to where the apt. complex would change their rules, I was just happy that my gun personally was protected from there on out.  I'll probably drop by the office next year, and see if the lease contract's been changed as far as "weapons", just to make me snicker a little bit, but until then I can only say that I stood up for my 2nd Amendment rights proudly and without fear, and for that Rosie O'donell, Brimstone-beaters, the Penguin, Riddler, and Joker can all take my story as an example of...
..PEOPLE WHO STAND UP FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN.

I hope my story touches you, as it touched me when I wrote it.  God Bless.

You want men? Men to stand up for their rights?  Well then let me tell you a story..and mind you, I shoot my AR15 primarily in competition, and I also like "beer, football, and Survivor":

Once upon a time, actually only about 3 weeks ago, my apartment complex (a 'college complex' about 1/2 mile from Auburn U. where I get my edumikashun) got wind of my owning a rifle, an 'assault rifle' as those hellfire and brimstone bible toting zealots call them (no offense to religion, just the people who fit the above description).  I suppose this came about when they held for me a shipped box of my 500 rounds of FMJ reman. 55gr's, my run of the mill range bullet, the box saying "Small Arms Ammunition".  Well, seeing this the management automatically assumed I had a weapon of some sort...wow good move sherlocks, did yall think of that one all by yourselves now?  These are the same folks that won't allow paintballs or guns inside people's apartments, as they are "weapons".  When they said something about how they might not let me, oh, resign my lease because I had a weapon on the premises, I told them that it was either keep it inside my house, or keep it inside my car, where i take it both to the university property (bad idea) and where i work at the local high school (even worse idea, especially looking at recent california events).  I then explained to them that you can have all the "no pets, balcony trash laying around, drugs, mafia underlords, midgets, pornstars, berkinstocks, and all the other crazy nonsense" rules that you'd like, I don't care.  But when you take away my gun, then you went to far...how far you say?  Far enough for me to call my local Auburn police station, for sure.  And after explaining to the nice office on the phone, "Look, where would you rather have me keep my weapon, in my car when i go on campus everyday and to the highschool where all those innocent children are, or in the privacy and safety of my own home where it's away from doing any harm?"

And what do you know, when you put things in perspective for them, those nice LEO's take your side.  I didn't say "damn the Man", I said "let the Man be on my side for once".  And lo and behold, the Man was.  I didn't go as so far into legal issues as to where the apt. complex would change their rules, I was just happy that my gun personally was protected from there on out.  I'll probably drop by the office next year, and see if the lease contract's been changed as far as "weapons", just to make me snicker a little bit, but until then I can only say that I stood up for my 2nd Amendment rights proudly and without fear, and for that Rosie O'donell, Brimstone-beaters, the Penguin, Riddler, Joker, and anybody else in question of the law can all take my story as an example of...
..PEOPLE WHO STAND UP FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN.

I hope my story touches you, as it touched me when I wrote it.  God Bless.

real men will eventually grow old and die

about 80 million gunowners now. how many million gunowners do you think there will be as the new PC generation grows to be our age?  there either full of marxist rhetoric or apathetic. the anti-gunners will just breed us out

friends, the country is decaying from the inside out, no doubt about it, but i think we should worry about what we can do to better the nation, not destroy it in a civil war, i personally think there will not be a repeal of the second amm, to me it is virtually impossible to do so as i read the constitution. revolutions arent fought on a whim and certainly not on one injustice, there must be severe injustices to move people to destroy their lives and attempt to rebuild a nation. remember, our own revolution would have surely been lost if not for the french helping and the brits being too damn tied up elsewhere. we are a nation of laws, not revolutions.

Brothers in Arms -

 Yes, when the time comes, I WILL FIGHT!  When is that time?  

 Let us remember that the Legacy of the Democrats is the all-important "spin" - the public perception of an action.  If we start the war, we WILL NOT WIN.  And, even if we win, we lose.  Why?  No popular support for our actions.

 Firearms owners number in the millions, true.  How many of those millions see only their use (hunting, trap, competition, etc.) as the only 'legitimate' use of firearms - subtract them.

 How many will not stand up, or will fold when the pressure hits?  Subtract them.

 How many are ambivalent?  Subtract them.

 How many buy firearms because they are banned?  Subtract them.

 How many are simple civilians with no real appreciation of rights? (not all civilians are like this, but a certain percentage are.)  Subtract them.

 I know there are more ideas I am missing, but it has been a long day.  Still, the basic concept should remain - how few can we count on?

 I will train those who ask - and are nearby.  I will assemble my legion - of people I know by sight and by name.  I will keep my options open, and my network alive.  And brothers, I WILL FIGHT.  We must understand the realpolitik of the situation, and that tactics and strategy alone will not win this war.  We must also gain the support of far more of the citizens than we already have, so we know where we will stand WHEN WE WIN.  Win we will - when it comes, but we must win our war on ALL fronts.  Remember this.

FFZ
Warrior, philosopher, and former Bagpipe breeder (always remember to keep a sense of humour!)

Real Men need to adjust to the situation.
A total ban on guns would go in stages.

Type by type, as we see in the Kalifornica example. Those who are adjusting are still available to fight another day.

Adjustment may mean evaluating what is most important, stay under the new regime of oppressive law or move to a more amicable climate of law.

One who knee jerks and fires upon the first move with abandon will BE painted the JERK by way of the media machine.  Remember Kalifornica IS the example strategy.

Yes we WILL be forced to the inevitable confrontation in each instance, but in a case by case basis. Waiting period, Limited capacity mags, outright so called "AW" ban, pistol ban, revolver ban, long rifle ban, shotgun ban.

My point is that it will be a death of a thousand cuts. But by issuance of each step we must learn to adjust in attitude, strategy and strength. This is mostly accomplished by the "Real Men" who take the initiative to go to the less restrictive environment and aligning with others who will not be oppressed.

A firefight would be a limited solution in this time as too much of an unorganized condition exists. Oppression being implemented in a larger scale will force the collective energies to engage the situation. Even if the weapons are lost by legal means, man will adapt AND sacrifice to obtain the upper hand.

Railgun....[rail]

guys i have to ask, what in the wide wide world of sports are you talking about?  think about it, there is no tyrrant, no king, no emporer, senators arent in for life and no one group is in controll of anything.  its not a pure democracy, thank god, its a republic, but even better, no one is in charge except the people.  sure you can say hard money soft money, special interest groups and all the rhetoric we hear everyday on these talk shows but when it comes down to it, if enough people do not vote for someone, they are not in a position of power.  god, isnt that so much easier than standing and training and firing and ducking and getting your head blown off by a guy that didint want to shoot you in the first place because now he will be in counseling the rest of his life because everytime he lays down at night he sees your confused face? for the sake of all that is simple take it easy, breathe in and lets just vote these corrupt guys and gals out.  do you all vote? no. why, you dont think it makes a difference. hey i understand, but it does. you have to subtract a liberals vote. its a great feeling.  when i voted for bush, i thought of it as i was directly negating algore's vote for himself. man did that feel good.

Yes I vote, and what did we see just a scant few months ago????

Voting for the lesser of two is a losing game but one which I play the best I can.

Still...."There comes a time when...."  H.L. Menken

Railgun....[rail]

For me the time is not until confiscation becomes a federal issue. Laws can be passed and not enforced and I will not act,but the moment confiscation becomes more than a Democrap’s wet dream I am sure that there will be more than me and mine who will fight.

The shooting in the first revolution started with an attempted gun grab and the next will be no different.
Until then we have as our duty to legally do what we can to stop the slow erosion of our rights. Perhaps we will get some good judges who will interpret laws in light of the Constitution and perhaps there be a change in the political climate in the coming years that is more conservative.

I for one don’t want to see any shooting war break out because people don’t like the gun laws in the state they live. For goodness sakes move to another state if you ever feel the urge to start a shooting war over a state law. To paraphrase Ronald Reagan " One of the best things about our form of government is that if you don’t like the laws in the state in which you live and cant change them you can vote with your feet."
I other words move to a state where you can live peaceably.

I am sure I will be flamed for this post but I am an American and I will not take up arms against our government until there is no other choice.

THISISME

THISISME, im buyin' you a beer right now.

Just how many injustices do you need?

[b]Murder of US Citizens[/b]
About 80 people murdered for trumped up charges of illegal weapons in Waco.  Randy Weaver's wife and son murdered for the same reason.  Numerous murders by SWAT and alphabet agencies carried out on the "sworn statement" of some informant giving information to save his own a$$, and sworn by some judge who doesn't even take the time to make sure it is valid.

[b]Unconstitutional Federal Gun Laws[/b]
There is NO federal gun law that is constitutional!  The Constitution does not delegate the authority of controlling arms to the federal government.  In fact, the Constitution specifically protects arms from federal control.  Amendment 2

[b]Unconstitutional Asset Forfeiture Laws[/b]
Majority of property siezed by government under civil asset forfeiture laws is unconstitutional.  

Amendment 5:  No person shall be...deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

[b]Unconstitutional Civil Law[/b]
Title 18, Sec 2385 US Code:  Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.  

Amendment 1:  Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press.  

Simply by proposing a solution (written or spoken) to tyranny given to me by the Declaration of Idependence and the 2nd Amendment automatically make me a Federal felon.  

Shall I go on?

SOL

Pompey, Thanx for the gesture. Don’t you just love AZ.

Arizona, The land of the free and the home of the brave.

THISISME

Son of liberty, i read your statement and can truly see where you are coming from, but please, when you make an argument that something is unconstitutional, you need to realize that it may not be. realize that while the second ammendment gives americans the right to keep and bear arms, it does not say what kind.  although article 3 prohibits unreasonable search and seizure, remember; that means there is such thing as reasonable search and seizure and the law accounts for that.  there are clauses in the constitution that allow for more or less whatever you could think of, it all depends on certain criteria that judges keep in mind, the letter of the law, the spirit of the law and the framer's intent.  please do not read the constitution literaly, no one who tries to interpret this stuff can.  ill give you an exapmle, please dont think im  talking down or anything i just need to make my point this way, if a liberal told me that the second amm does not give citizens the right to bear arms, only the militia, i could see where he was coming from, literally you could almost see that.  but having background knowledge of the time, the volatility and the intent of the framers through various sources, we could say the liberal is wrong. so it works both ways.

First off, Article 3 of the Constitution does not prohibit illegal search and seizure.  It outlines creation of Judicial powers.  Amendment 4 protects against illegal search and seizure, and Amendment 5 provides for protection under due process of law.

Do not take the Constitution literally?  Because no one can interpret it?  The Constitution was intentionally written so the layman could understand it.

I read the Constitution and compare it to the various writing of the times by those who wrote it to make judgement to what applies and where.

Hi guys I would like your opinion on what I just did today do I have big balls and a small brain or am I just a real patriot

Well guys I just did it I went to the Rhode Island State House and I told both the house committee and the head of the state police that I will never register any firearm regardless of the law and to me freedom and loving the Constitution is more important then obeying any unconstitutional law, in fact I made a point that I was saying this to the Committee and to the head of the State Police. I also read a nice little speech in which I said that any one who supported this bill was a traitor and also quoted from Thomas Jefferson "And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time  to  time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance?   Let  them take arms... The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with  the blood of patriots and tyrants." I did mention that it was from Jefferson. The head of the Committee liked it so much that he asked me if I would give it to the Committee Secretary or maybe he just wanted my fingerprints. So I guess that if the bill gets passed and the police can decide who they feel should have their weapons taken from them, I suppose I will be at the top of the list. Then I will really get the chance to make a real and maybe final stand.

So in my little way I have stood up so I could be counted. Does this mean that I have big Balls and no brains or I am just a real patriot who is willing to make a stand.  Waiting for SWAT.     Sniper for Justice

The Second Amendment to the Constitution does not GIVE us the right to keep and bear arms, if it did, then we may be at the mercy of some lamebrained majority in the future.  The right to keep and bear arms is best described in this excerpt from a well-known document:

[i]We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.[/i]

Lord, have mercy, but there were giants in the earth in those days.

And we can count ourselves blessed to be their heirs.

The Second Amendment secures a preexisting right against governmental interference. So that even a Supreme Court decision holding that the Second Amendment does not mean what it so most clearly states, does not abrogate this
'inalienable right of man.'

Well, I still haven't changed my stand on the matter.

The point being, the opening statement isn't asking for a patriot or a man. It is asking for someone to be a martyr. A martyr either sittin in jail or laying in a grave somewhere.  In the situation described the only patriot would be the swat team member or the leo or the National Guardsmen or what ever that refused to take you out.  These people will follow orders they have done it in the past and will do it in the future.  People's homes are getting raided now because of illegal fireams.  Ask the poor souls from the Waco incident, ask the four dead student from Kent State.  We are out gunned in the voting booth by soccer moms and out gunned in the streets by the military and law enforcement.

If firearms are banned in my area hell no I'm not going to march my ass into the local collection area and just toss them into a bin.  But I'm not going to stand infront of my home and say here it is come and get it.  Because I wouldn't be standing long, I'd be lying there in a pool of my own blood.

Unless someone plans on sectioning off a whole portion of the US where we American's that believe in the 2nd Amendment could unite then me standing alone being a martyr servers little purpose.  

I don't have the answer to the question, but as in my previous rants.  If your not sitting in jail or dead in your grave you don't have the right to point your finger at anyone else and say where are you balls.

Sniper_762x51 great job, it sounds more like you’re a big-balled patriot.

Bootedaddy, perhaps I’m naive but I feel sure living in Arizona that should confiscation become federal law those who would attempt to enforce it would be in grave danger here. Unlike California the people of Arizona know what freedom is and there are many patriots here.
On the weekends at the shooting ranges you have to wait for a bench to open up because there are only 60 or so benches and you can have no more than four persons to a bench. By the way there are three ranges within a reasonable short drive and there are a surprising number of people who refer to there bolt action rifles as Sniper rifles not to mention all the machine guns and suppressed firearms and .30cal and .50cal belt fed guns that show up.


THISISME

Bootedaddy

Outgunned well I don’t know about the voting booth except that there are between 60 to 80 million of us gun owners and if we all stuck together and voted as gun owners we would not even have to worry about losing our rights, but of course we don’t. Now as to being out gunned by the police and military, no way. It is the police and the military that is out gunned by us measly  civilians. I don’t know what the police are like  where you live, in my area the police are for the most part incompetent and are not by any stretch on the imagination expert shots with their service weapon or worse yet a rifle. The sniper on my local SWAT unit thinks shooting a 2.5 inch group from the bench with his rifle is good enough to go into the News Paper. And little old me, well not so little can shoot a nice 1/2 to 3/4 in group with his Bushy V-Match on a Colt lower with Win 3131A and no match trigger either. We not only have more quality weapons but are more competent in their use. And as to the military I was told by a friend who is a recruiter that there are only about 45,000 actual combat military personal out of about 450,000 total personal in the Army. So us out gunned by them, never happen. And about lying there in a pool of your own blood if you stand up, well don’t actually stand up, I don’t think anyone really means to stand there in front of your house holding your rifle just waiting to be shot like some stupid jerk. What it means is to simply  fight back, even if you have to become a sniper and shoot from ambush. I believe there is no such thing as rules of war at least as it pertains to us who are fighting on the side of freedom, it does not matter how we win as long as we win. There is no such thing as being too extreme in the cause of freedom, first said by a better man then I.  Sniper for Justice

I'm on your side guys I was just stating my opinion.  As far as being out gunned in the voters booth, I meant that No. 1 Women out number men in the US and most of them are anti gun period.  You add anti gun democrats and that is what I based my assumption that we are out gunned in the voter's booth.  

As far as being out gunned by the establishment, for example I swore they used tanks at Waco.  Now I don't have anything that would put a dent in one of those babies.  I don't own any full auto weapons.  I know some of you do, but the vast majority of us don't.  And I am not stupid, I'm not going to stand in front of my home and get shot.  But I took the opening post as saying unless you do just that you are not a man and our fore fathers would be ashamed to call you an American.  

When the day comes for confiscation I will no longer have any firearms.  I won't turn them in, but for some reason they will be nowhere to be found.  And it isn't like I haven't been involved in a war before.  I will do what I have to do.  

It is all over with. The Republic is lost.