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6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 1/9/2002 2:55:54 PM EDT
Why was the US fighting in Somalia? looks like a cool movie.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 2:59:12 PM EDT
Because Klinton needed a distraction to cover up some mis-deed, I'm sure. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 3:16:14 PM EDT
Well it seemed to be a humanitarian effort at first until Aidid was blocking and stealing food and aid, which escalated it. Then it seems that the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing..in other words, diplomacy and military force were working on different planes and objectives. This is just what I have gleaned from reading "Blackhawk Down" twice and various news articles.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 3:23:21 PM EDT
Always remember that Klinton sent lots of armor to Waco and none to Somalia even though it was requested. It would have been of great help when the Blackhawk went down. Klinton should be serving 10 life sentences!!! The first true criminal to be president of the United States.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 4:11:17 PM EDT
We were originally there to feed to poor, starving, peace loving people of Somalia. By all accounts, we were doing pretty good, then the UN got involved and things got worse, attacks on the Paki's, then us. Then TFR was sent to capture Aidid and his henchmen...
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 4:24:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2002 4:29:57 PM EDT by Sodie]
The Rangers went into Mogadishu as part of a UN operation to arrest Mohammed Aidid and his henchmen. They murdered about 9 UN "Pakistani" peace keeping soldiers who were protecting the food supplies destined for the starving people in Somalia. I think that they skinned them alive. These warloads were stealing this humanitarian aid and making big profit for themselves. The mission started out as a simple arrest warrant but as it always seems to happen when the UN/Politicians are involved, things quickly turned into a cluster-F's for the soldiers that had to actually do the fighting. The UN/Clinton adminsitration did not have the balls to make the hard descisions necessary and kick some warlord ass. It was just too much politics and the usual pussy footing around various ethnic "sensitivities". The result was a needless prolonging of the suffering of all those starving Somalis and a bunch of dead Americans. Americans that had to "procure/buy" armored vehicles just to save their own asses. These vehicles should have been there in the first place as requested by the Rangers but were summarilly denied by retards in the Clinton Admin.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 6:01:11 PM EDT
A lot of folks are getting close, but not quite... We went into Somalia because a UN food distribution operation was failing to deliver food because of tribal warfare. Several million Somalis were on the verge of death. The mandate was to escort food convoys and distribute food. Malaysian and Italian troops (Somalia was a former Italian colony) were already in-country but were not effective. Somalia was fully capable of feeding itself but could not because of clan warfare. The largest and most powerful clan was based in the capital and main city, Mogadishu. It was led by Mohammed Farrah Aideed. Aideed was a former army officer who had received extensive training at some of the more prestigous Soviet military officer training schools and by all accounts, performed very well. The initial mission of getting the food out was very sucessful. However, the large military presence in Mogadishu led to inevitable conflict between clan gunmen and the peacekeeping troops. The mission slowly morphed (and gave birth to the term "mission creep") into an exercise in "nation-building" at the behest of the UN. The military operation, however, was under the control of the Americans. The idea was to restore the Somali infrastructure, establish government services, health care and basic infrastructure. This of course also shut out the traditional clans, which they did not like. The entire affair was a Clinton Administration plan; they wanted to "fix" a broken country to show the world what a great country we were. Aideed responded by laying a careful ambush and playing off his enemy's observed weaknesses.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 6:13:09 PM EDT
(continued) The resulting ambush resulted in 26 dead Pakastani soldiers. The Clinton Administration was outraged. They decide that if peace were to be achieved, Aideed must be removed and his clan broken. To accomplish this, they established a special operations task force. It consisted of Command and Control elements, Army Rangers (a reinforced company by all accounts I can find), strike elements from high-echelon US Army Special Forces ("Delta Force"), and aviation support elements from Task Force 160, the Army's Special Operations aviation Unit. These units deployed without their traditional close-air support elements (helicopter gunships and the AC-130) and instead relied on fire support from the AH-6 "little bird," which mounted a lone 7.62mm minigun. Forces in theater consisted of about a brigade from the 10th Mountain Divison (an Army light Infantry unit) and several mixed battalions of troops from other countries. The US elements did not have any armored vehicles or tube artillery. Their repeated requests for more firepower were denied by their chain of command all the way up to then Secretary of Defense, Les Aspin. In fact, rules of engagement were so restrictive that US forces were not allowed to use inidrect fire (mortars and arty) at all, and there were no fixed wing air or helicopter gunship support available. This all in the face of increasing violent activity from the clans. US forces were configured to hand out food and reopen the roads to the country's agricultural areas. They were not set up for a major conflict in a dangerous urban setting.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 6:16:21 PM EDT
I like that LTVN, Clinton would not allow armor to be used against Somali warlords, only U.S. churches and citizens.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 6:29:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 6:31:36 PM EDT
(continued) US Special Operations Forces deployed with the mission to capture Aideed and his clan's hierarchy. Unfortunately, they deployed with a fractured chain of command. The Special Operations Task Force reported directly to the Department of Defense. There was no direct contact with the commander for regular American forces. The Task Force was self-contained and performed their own missions and support with organic and directly attached assets. The normal tropps had no idea what was going on; they knew an operation was being mounted when they saw the helicopters take off. The Special Operations Task Force, TF Ranger, peformed five flawless raids, striking deep into Aideed's areas of Mogadishu. The typical raid consisted of Ranger company fastroping from helicopters and siezing a perimeter around a targeted building, and the "Delta" elements assaulting the building and taking prisoners and documents. The whole affair was orchestrated so that helicopters would provide overhead cover and a ground convoy would arrive to pickup the assault and perimeter teams at about the same time the teams were finishing their assault. This worked great the first five teams they did it, but they fell into a predictable pattern. The first warning signs came when a UH60 was struck by a rocket while patrolling the city. Reports that shoulder-fired SAMs had made it into the city were discounted, and the incident was written off as a freak occurrence.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 6:48:07 PM EDT
The sixth raid started like the others. But Aideed had prepared. He had acquired a large stock of RPG rocket launchers and rockets, and had developed an action plan. When the next raid came, his forces would flock to the area. Unarmed civilians would be herded out to provide cover for movement and for his forces to fire on the Americans. While RPGs were not effective anti-air weapons, his soldiers would volley fire them at the helicopters. Even if they missed, the warheads were designed to detonate after 3500 meters of travel, and might get a lucky hit. His troops had experimented with the weapons, and managed to hit one helicopter already. With the air cover supressed, his forces would shoot up the light-skinned vehicles sent to extract the Americans, and he could pin them down and eliminate them. The American regular Quick Reaction Force was all the way across town and only had light-skinned vehicles. There were only a few avenues out of the American base, and Aideed's forces set up ambushes to stop the light-skinned vehicles. Of course, the American troops of the 10th Mountain Division did not have the firepower or armor to punch through the ambushes and relieve Task Force Ranger. Task Force Ranger lacked the ability to deploy their heavy support they usually had, the gunships, and could not call on air power or artillery, because there were none. The decision to not deploy the systmes was entiely a political one made by the Clinton Administration, who thought that the deployment of armor would be an uneeded escalation. the 10th Mountain did not have any of the support issues worked out with Task Force Ranger, anyway, because the TF was not in the theater chain of command; the US Commander (and it was an American, not a UN officer in charge) had no authority over the TF or its operations; he was generally briefed about the missions as a "courtesy" after they were already underway. That is the tactical and political set-up for the events depicted in "Blackhawk Down." It is a combination of: 1) Clinton Administration grandstanding; 2) Spineless career officers; 3) Not arming youself for the threat level faced; 4)Underestimating the cunning and abilities of your enemies; 5) Failing to plan for reasonable contigencies; 6) Porr tactical thinking and no unity of command. At least, that is my opinion. What is arguably worse were the conditions in Mogadishu AFTER Task Force Ranger, which is a story you will only hear from vets who were there.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 9:50:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 3:29:12 AM EDT
I didn't mention the Pakastani and Malaysian armor (that was commandeered at gunpoint to rescue TF Ranger) because it was not under American command, and proved to be unavailable when needed.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 4:00:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2002 4:01:13 AM EDT by PincoPalla]
Originally Posted By natez: ...... Malaysian and Italian troops were already in-country but were not effective........
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Natez , probably you do not know we had almost the same woundeds and deads as you , what does it means "not effective" ? And , about the Malaysian , even if I do not care about them, it's also true they gave you the capability to rescue your men escorting with their armors your trucks because your then silly government did not authorize you to have yours. I think that just a little bit of more respect for the /friends/allies is not a bad thing , do not you think so ? PP out
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 5:18:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2002 5:25:45 AM EDT by liberty86]
I am very comforted by the fact that some of my fellow citizens are so knowlegable, and articulate. Some of the previous posts in this thread (and many others at AR15.com) demonstrate that. I would only add one thing to the above however..... [b]Natez "We went into Somalia because a UN food distribution operation was failing to deliver food because of tribal warfare. Several million Somalis were on the verge of death. The mandate was to escort food convoys and distribute food. Malaysian and Italian troops (Somalia was a former Italian colony) were already in-country but were not effective."[/b] Actually, like so much else that has (and is) happened(ing) in our country for the past 100 or so years, This is what others wanted us (the sheeple) to believe we were doing there. Without all those starving children on t.v.(images), Americans (the sheep) would never heve been willing to send their children into harms way. The real agenda however, may have been somewhat diffrent, just like the news (propaganda) on t.v. (images) since 9/11. It's all (and pretty much always always has been) about "natural resources"(ie. productive land, or needed for stratagic reasons like oil pipelines, or to protect same). Check this; : [url]http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/[/url] And or this; [url]http://www.rense.com/general18/blackhawk.htm[/url] As with most things in life, things are not always what they seem.....Thanks [;)]
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 5:45:53 AM EDT
Thought I'd add this, written by Mark Twain, just for kicks.. "I did not like to hear our race called sheep, and said I did not think they were. "Still, it is true, lamb," said Satan. "Look at you in war -- what mutton you are, and how ridiculous!" "In war? How?" "There has never been a just one, never an honorable one -- on the part of the instigator of the war. I can see a million years ahead, and this rule will never change in so many as half a dozen instances. The loud little handful -- as usual -- will shout for the war. The pulpit will -- warily and cautiously -- object -- at first; the great, big, dull bulk of the nation will rub its sleepy eyes and try to make out why there should be a war, and will say, earnestly and indignantly, "It is unjust and dishonorable, and there is no necessity for it." Then the handful will shout louder. A few fair men on the other side will argue and reason against the war with speech and pen, and at first will have a hearing and be applauded; but it will not last long; those others will outshout them, and presently the anti-war audiences will thin out and lose popularity. Before long you will see this curious thing: the speakers stoned from the platform, and free speech strangled by hordes of furious men who in their secret hearts are still at one with those stoned speakers -- as earlier -- but do not dare to say so. And now the whole nation -- pulpit and all -- will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open. Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception."
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 6:00:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PincoPalla: And , about the Malaysian , even if I do not care about them, it's also true they gave you the capability to rescue your men escorting with their armors your trucks because your then silly government did not authorize you to have yours.
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I lack the information to speak on the effectiveness of the Italian troops, but the book "Blackhawk Down" quotes several Rangers as mentioning that the Malaysian APC drivers had to be forced by Rangers -at gunpoint- to proceed to reinforce the Rangers under fire. Clinton and Aspin both should be prosecuted for the deaths of the members of TFR, as everyone since the Banana Wars in the 1920s has known that armor is necessary to pacify lightly armed (no tanks or air support of their own) built up areas.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 7:29:46 AM EDT
Jarhead as one of the first members here I ever talked with, I like reading your posts. The reason was the Operation CLUSTER FUCKED ON THEM. HOWEVER CLINTON SET THEM UP FOR DISASTER, CONTRIBUTING TO THE LEVEL OF CASUALTIES. I was in Poly Sci when we first went into Somalia. I remember writing that Somalia was not worth one drop of American Blood. It seems that I was not out of line in saying that then , and am still not out of line now. When I saw the TV crews already there when the Military came rushing onto the beach I thought to myself. This is going to be stupid. I felt sorry for the military under clintons direction. PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR HIM SHOULD BE ASHAMED. And the people in DC who got those boys killed should be ashamed as well. Benjamin
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 8:20:40 AM EDT
I originally posted this right after I read the book, and will attempt to recapture some of my points. Originally posted by Natez. "The initial mission of getting the food out was very sucessful. However, the large military presence in Mogadishu led to inevitable conflict between clan gunmen and the peacekeeping troops. The mission slowly morphed (and gave birth to the term "mission creep") into an exercise in "nation-building" at the behest of the UN. The military operation, however, was under the control of the Americans. The idea was to restore the Somali infrastructure, establish government services, health care and basic infrastructure." Follow the trail and get ready to be pissed at the UN! -At the time the Sec. General of the UN was Butros Butros Ghali. -Want to guess what city/country he and his family is from? -His family controlled a rival clan. This clan would gain the ruling power for Somalia with the removal of the Aideed led clan. This power was to be solidified by a UN Peacekeeping force. -He and his family stood to gain power and wealth, from the mentioned oil deposits, with the removal of Aideed. I am amazed that there is not a groundswell of public outrage at the loss of 18 US servicemen to futher the aims of the UN Secretary General and his family. At the same time we should punish Clinton for following the UN so blindly. Aspin has already resigned in disgrace but we should include his name in a list of criminals associated with 'Blackhawk Down'. Here is my list: 1. Butros Butros Ghali - 18 counts of Murder for US Courts, 1018 for international courts. 2. Bill Clinton - Same as Ghali 3. Les Aspin - Same as Ghali Does anyone have access to a good Federal Prosecutor to look at this? Does anyone know the UN charter well as to the responsibility of the US in following UN chain of command issues?
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 1:21:37 PM EDT
Jesus christ, talk about blowing a topic out of proportion.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 2:00:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cat: Jesus christ, talk about blowing a topic out of proportion.
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Originally Posted By CPL_Punishment: ditto.
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This is one of the best threads on BHD yet, and a good discussion to boot. So what exactly is your friggin point, boys? This is a discussion board, ain't it? Pinco Palla: what about the Italians who allegedly tipped off Aidid? I lived in Italy (Vicenza) for three years, and I must say, your armed forces are a joke from what I saw. Glass houses and throwing stones? Ciao.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 2:14:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CPL_Punishment:
Originally Posted By Cat: Jesus christ, talk about blowing a topic out of proportion.
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ditto.
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I must have misunderstood.... what topic are we blowing out of proportion? Is it the fact that 18 Americans died following orders? Is it that they died following orders handed down from a command that had personal gain at stake? Is it that they died without the support that the National Command Authority has a moral and ethical obligation to provide? I do not think that holding our leaders to a very high criteria when placing our militay in harms way is 'overreacting'. Anyone that has served has had to make peace with the fact that the Command structure will 'spend' your life in a responsible way. Everything I have heard about this mission speaks volumes about the fighting ability of the American soldier, and the complete irresponsibilty in which their lives were spent. If I am out of line and your comments are from experience then I apologize. If you are in the least bit unconcerned with the manner in which our soldiers died and under whose misguided authority it happened, then I feel sorry for you.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 2:31:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2002 2:45:50 PM EDT by HBAR16]
Pinco Palla: what about the Italians who allegedly tipped off Aidid? I lived in Italy (Vicenza) for three years, and I must say, your armed forces are a joke from what I saw. Glass houses and throwing stones? Ciao.
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I lived in Vicenza (4/325 ABCT) for a year and was trained at the Alpini ski school before being assigned to Folgaria as an instructor for the SETAF Winter Warfare training course. I enjoyed working with Alpinis who were great instructors and quite skilled at winter operations. Heck they taught me to ski in just a few short days and I had never skiied before! Besides who wants to argue with skiing all day then drinking vino with the ragazze at the trattoria when the day is done! (see [url]http://www.user8.com/gallery/bellucci/bellucci1.html[/url] if you've never seen Italian women in person for a sample :>) As far as BHD goes, there [b]is[/b] a passage in the book that discusses the Italians tipping off the Somalis when the US troops were gearing up by flashing vehicle lights and the US troops being frustrated at not being allowed to put a stop to it. Bear in mind that this was discussed in the context of the US base camp being in a poor location since most anyone with decent optics in the city could look right into the big hangar where the troops lived.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 2:48:06 PM EDT
I was a little harsh on the Italians. I was speaking about the many Italian friends I had who served their 1-yr (I think) mandatory service and were the biggest bunch of fuck-ups and malcontents you could imagine. I suppose Italy has some fine career soldiers, so I retract my slur. I am still pissed about what happened in Somalia and would like to know the truth. HBAR: I loved living in Italy (it was the late 70s), and also loved the wine, food, trattorias, and of course, the bella ragazzi (hope I spelled it right I was talkin 'bout the wimmenz!). [beer]
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 3:00:23 PM EDT
Totally OT but what the heck: Yep I thoroughly enjoyed living in Italy. I suppose that's because I made the best of it and actually went off the caserma to meet Italian friends, travel, and of course drink! A good friend and I tried to "fit in" as best as possible and get to know people. We really tried to learn Italian beyond the intro course taught to all new soldiers at the caserma so that we could get around. It paid off when I found myself with a quite attractive Italian girlfriend. Nyah-nyah-nyah-nyah... [8D]
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 3:45:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2002 3:45:31 PM EDT by natez]
Sorry Pincopalla, I meant no insult to the Italian troops. I was talking about the relief operation that was in place prior to December of 1992. This was a purely UN operation, led by an Italian general. The troops and relief workers on the ground WERE ineffective because there were not enough of them and they were too lightly armed to accomplish their mission, which was the disrtibution of food. By them time the US troops arrived, the remaining aid workers and the small security force were mainly pinned down in their compounds. The American deployment was as much a rescue mission for them as anything else. This is a completely different affair from the performance of Italian Infantry units later during the operation, which by all accounts was superb.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 6:51:40 PM EDT
An interesting overview on the Somalia Rescue Mission, and the trap we fell into laid by BIN LADEN and Co. is documented in a book on Bin Laden, by Yossef Bodansky (Director of the House Task Force on terrorism and unconventional warfare). Reading it you will understand that the US was either clueless, or criminally negligent, in sending in US combat troops for this relief project. I clearly remember the cry from certain 'pols' and the media before this mess started...if these were starving white children would the US stand by and do nothing ? A day later Clinton was on TV in his Superman costume....national interest be damned. To read this book written in 1999 about this 'Rescue Mission' will make you crazy...we fell into a carefully laid trap, took the bait, and the rest is history....and Osama was pulling the strings.....very interesting, Gib and tragic...
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 7:13:45 PM EDT
Who as in what command, etc., denied U.S. armour after the fire-fight was underway ? As I recall the Pakistanis finally sent their APC's in. Was the task force commander, an admiral, sitting of the coast ? I know, I know hitlery was ultimate CIC but who/what was the highest ranking on scene commander and why didn't the heavy stuff get sent in ? ----------------------------------------------- Please remember I understand independent operations but don't have a clue even as to how the 'real' Navy command structure works much less an integrated services operation. I'm not even sure how to ask the questions. Basically we answered to a two star admiral - COMSUBPAC. (Gib, the book you recommended is already on my list and I'm going to order it tonight from Barnes & Noble.)
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 12:05:51 AM EDT
I must say this is a good discussion on what really happened in Somilia. I just read the book Black Hawk Down over the christmas holiday. I got the book as a christmas present and i sat and read the book in 2 days,i could not put it down. I also saw a documentary on the public broadcasting station about what had happened and it was very interesting. It had a few of the Task Force Rangers on the show that went into detail about what had happened. First off read the book it is good, I will read it again and again because there is so much info in it. The UN's desicion to go into Somilia was less about food and more about personal gain as some have mentioned. Butros Gahlia was a high ranking UN official that had alot to gain if Aideed was put out of his missory. At first the clinton administration did not want to get involoved but as was suggested comadities such as oil and other goods became an interest and with clintons blind trust to the UN we got involved in something that we should not have been involved with. Clinton used the old feed the starving children routine to blow smoke up peoples asses and decieve the american public to what the true reason why we were going over there.Aideeds men received training from Osama Bin Laden and once our troops were there it became a way for Osama to strike at the US. The clinton administration realied more on political means to try to solve this issue and tied the militaries hands behind there backs. Our men did a fine job with what they had but there was no comunication between the military heads and the political heads. On the very day the Task Force Rangers went in to get Aideeds men Ex President Jimmy Carter was involved with a peace talk with Aideed himself. Aideed new in advance that the Task Force Rangers were going to go after his men on that day so he set up an ambush.Plus president clinton knew himself that on that day there was the peace talk and the raid going to happen. In the book Black Hawk Down it goes into great detail even how there was no real cohesiveness between the Rangers and The Delta forces,and the commanders of both units somewhat despised each other. When finally The marines went in to help extract the Delta and the Rangers the marines took a pretty relaxed stance and this is not from me it is in the book black hawk down.There was a total breakdown in the chain of command and a total lack of comunication starting from the President all the way down to the fighting soldier. Clinton pretty much put our men into a situation that they were doomed to fail because of his lack of military knowledge and becaue of his lack of respect for what our military does on a day to day basis. It is true that our men had to hold the Pakistani's at gun point to go in with their armored carriers because the Paki's were gutless.
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 12:14:10 AM EDT
continue.......... As far as communication goes the helicopter pilots,rangers,and delta forces all could not communicate to one another. If the rangers or delta forces needed fire support they had to relay to the central command center and then the central command center had to relay to the chopper pilots what was needed, usually by then it was too little to late. There were even instinces were rangers were fireing on delta forces in other buildings because rangers had seen shadows in windows and assumed that it was the enemy, this is also from the book. To many things went bad, but untilmately the UN and the President were totally responsible, for the President was the one who says either yes or no to put troops abroad and he is the one that totally says yes or no to what kind of weaponry and support they can and cannot have.He is advised and then he makes the decisions period. He is the Commander In Chief.Our military forces are the best trained and the best equipt and the best at fighting in the world, but if you dont have all of the right tools for the job you cant do your job properly, and clinton made sure that our men were not properly tooled for the task at hand. Clinton screwd up big time and he blew some real good smoke up the american peoples asses to get away with it. To much politics and not enough common sense thinking got our men killed and injured. Although we lost 18 and I believe 73 were injured in the documentary on the public station said that when the red cross came in and helped get all of the Somalia killed out the body count was close to 1500 dead. The show said that a total count could not really be done because as the fire fight was going on the somalia's were putting people in graves because this is some standard muslim burial thing. So 100 men put some reall kick ass in the somalia's. What we really should have done is regroup and get some real fire power in their and totally kicked some ass. But clinton did not have the stomach for such a thing and he made our military get a black eye.Which know in the present future made us weak and contributed to the vulnarablitly for us as a nation to be striked upon.America being in Somalia was all about greed and personal gain, not about feeding the starving children of Somalia.Starving children just provided a good cover, and the liberal bleeding hearts of america bought the lie of the clinton adminisration so dont always believe what you see on TV, the media is a good spin doctor. clinton will eventually have his judgemtn day even if it is at the foot of god on judgement day he will get what is due to him on that day.I am sure that he will burn in hell for all of eternity.
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