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Posted: 1/8/2002 9:11:54 AM EST
This is not a troll, I promise; it's an ethical question that has been crawling around in my mind after having a discussion with a friend of mine. The friend isn't anti-gun, but refuses to carry, for fear of encountering this quandary: Can a Christian justify using deadly force in self-defense? Scenario: You are being mugged. The bad guy wants your wallet and your jewelry, and is going to kill you to take them. The mugger is therefore already breaking one commandment (covetousness) and is about to break another (murder). If you shoot him, and kill him, you've killed him in the very act of being covetous, and he therefore does not have the opportunity to repent for that sin, and is therefore unable to achieve salvation. You, on the other hand, if you allowed him to proceed, would die with a clean record (having presumably, as a Christian, repented for your sins), and would therefore be allowed into the kingdom of heaven. Essentially the choice you're having to make is: let him kill you, because you know where you're going, or kill him, and prevent him from having the opportunity to repent, in effect ensuring his damnation. Thoughts?
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:16:18 AM EST
Kill him. Let him deal with god.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:17:26 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:17:47 AM EST
You forgot the fact that should you relent, give up your wallet you'll just be encouraging him to do it again to someone else. While killing to protect property is beyond my morality, saving my life and the lives of others (whom may be next) does not bother my morality in the least. DOA, Mike
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:19:13 AM EST
Exedous 22:2 is often used to justify deadly force in home defense. And I am certain there are many others - after all, self defense is an 'endowed by our Creator' in-alienable right.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:21:49 AM EST
In the Ten Commands, the original text reads thou shall not commit murder.......
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:21:58 AM EST
Who is to say that he will repent anyway. Most of them don't. And lets just say how many more will he kill for money before he does repent. You killing him may be saving more lives of sinners that are very close to repenting. I say protect your self and everyone else around you.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:22:28 AM EST
So don't shoot to kill. Shoot him in the B@ll$, and I'll betcha he'll come to know Jesus REAAAAAL quick! [;)]
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:29:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By BrokenPaw: This is not a troll, I promise; it's an ethical question that has been crawling around in my mind after having a discussion with a friend of mine. The friend isn't anti-gun, but refuses to carry, for fear of encountering this quandary: Can a Christian justify using deadly force in self-defense? Scenario: You are being mugged. The bad guy wants your wallet and your jewelry, and is going to kill you to take them. The mugger is therefore already breaking one commandment (covetousness) and is about to break another (murder). If you shoot him, and kill him, you've killed him in the very act of being covetous, and he therefore does not have the opportunity to repent for that sin, and is therefore unable to achieve salvation. You, on the other hand, if you allowed him to proceed, would die with a clean record (having presumably, as a Christian, repented for your sins), and would therefore be allowed into the kingdom of heaven. Essentially the choice you're having to make is: let him kill you, because you know where you're going, or kill him, and prevent him from having the opportunity to repent, in effect ensuring his damnation. Thoughts?
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Good Question. Dying in the act of committing sin does not mean he has no time to repent. We ALL will die in our sins, just not necessarily in the act of sinning. As a Christian, we need not repent for EACH particular sin we commit after the fact to be saved, that is impossible. Rather we repent for the sins we can and ask for forgiveness for our sinful nature and rely on the grace of God for our salvation. Innocent self preservation is not evil even if it means killing those who would try to kill us. I don't think God intends for us to passively allow evil to be conducted upon us, or for us to allow badguys to continue on after killing us. By not stopping him, you'd be partly responsible for allowing any future innocents to be killed by the BG also. Haven't referenced the NT yet but I'm sure Gman can scrounge up a few relevant passages for Biblical support if needed.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:30:26 AM EST
Essentially the choice you're having to make is: let him kill you, because you know where you're going, or kill him, and prevent him from having the opportunity to repent, in effect ensuring his damnation.
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If you're [b]that[/b] worried about dying in a state of grace, why not just kill yourself now before you screw up? If you don't resist the mugger's attack you are, in effect, committing suicide or acting as an accessory to murder (your own) anyway.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:32:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By Royal_Lancer: In the Ten Commands, the original text reads thou shall not commit murder.......
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and that be correct. ("Thou shalt not murder.") If you're speaking "Anglish" as King James did.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:32:43 AM EST
Article: [url]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25442[/url]
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:33:25 AM EST
Did you know that many mobsters consider getting whacked a "blessing"? See, they way they see it, if they get whacked before they have the opportunity to confess their sins, they have been cheated out of being obsolved. So God, in all fairness, has to let them into Heaven, cuz they didn't get a fair shot at a final confession. So, smoke that punk, cuz you're doing him a favor.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:35:03 AM EST
It is a good question, but if it's down to him gonna kill you if you don't kill him, then the sin for his death is upon him, so regardless of his sin for coveting your posessions, he has the sin of his own death upon his soul. This is what I glean from the Pope's Evangeleum Vitae (if I spelled that correctly) A Christian should feel no guilt, and is free of sin, if he kills to prevent his own life from being taken unrighteously by an attacker.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:42:14 AM EST
A website for your perusal.... [url]www.frii.com/~gosplow/cgsa.html[/url] Look on the left under "Apologetics" and follow the "Biblical" link. This part however jumped out at me:
If you shoot him, and kill him, you've killed him in the very act of being covetous, and he therefore does not have the opportunity to repent for that sin, and is therefore unable to achieve salvation.
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A mans salvation is dependant on his relationship to Jesus Christ, NOT a single act of wrongdoing (other than the "single act" of NOT having received Christ as Saviour and Lord of his life) But to your larger question, God has regard to INNOCENT life. Those who do NOT act in defense of the life God gave them, when endangered by those committing heinous and illegal acts, in my estimation, are poorly regarding the innocent life God gave them. And pretty much ALL of Christianity can be defined in seeing the world as God sees it. Stated another way, as I read the Scriptures, waste the dirtbag. But hey, that's just me. [BD] Read the Scriptures (above) and conform to them. Beyond that, follow your conscience. If your conscience won't allow you to kill the dirty scumbag vermin-like puke [:D] then don't do it.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:45:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By BrokenPaw: Can a Christian justify using deadly force in self-defense?
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Christian is an utterly ambiguous term. What exactly are you defining as "Christian"? a believer, a sect, someone who casually reads the bible? Because nowdays anoyone who "calls" themselves a Christian is one. So it makes a big difference regarding the answer to your question.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:47:21 AM EST
Its not "Thou shall not kill".It's "Thou shall not murder".BIG diffrence.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:48:48 AM EST
Or simply, "Kill'em all, let God sort'em out"
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:49:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By ARMALITE-FAN: Its not "Thou shall not kill".It's "Thou shall not murder".BIG diffrence.
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Please see the posts above.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:51:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 9:56:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By ARMALITE-FAN: Its not "Thou shall not kill".It's "Thou shall not murder".BIG diffrence.
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Please see the posts above.
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Please dont kill me for missing your post.Please,please,please. This is one of my peeves when when dicussing self defense with a cetian bunch of religious sheeple.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 10:41:06 AM EST
Draw your weapon. If the bad guy doesn't immediately haul ass, empty the weapon into the center of mass and then *YOU* haul ass.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 10:47:51 AM EST
Kill him then go to confession.... God is very forgiving or he might send you to purgatory. :)
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 10:48:34 AM EST
Edmund Burke - The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 10:53:17 AM EST
Ask Rabbi Mermelstein: [url]www.jpfo.org[/url] I know he obviously isn't Christian, but much of Christian law and morals are extrapilated directly from the Talmud (Jewish Law). Basically it states that preservation of life is the ultimate goal and the prime Law of God. Killing a bad guy to preserve yourself or another from harm is not only justifiable in the eyes of God, but a solemn duty.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 11:07:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By Redmanfms: Ask Rabbi Mermelstein: [url]www.jpfo.org[/url] I know he obviously isn't Christian, but much of Christian law and morals are extrapilated directly from the Talmud (Jewish Law). Basically it states that preservation of life is the ultimate goal and the prime Law of God. Killing a bad guy to preserve yourself or another from harm is not only justifiable in the eyes of God, but a solemn duty.
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As is abortion, when the mother's life is at stake. But perhaps a topic for a different thread...
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 11:32:07 AM EST
Oooh! Maybe this board needs a dedicated religion forum, like Glocktalk. Eh...nevermind. That would just deteriorate into evolution vs. creationism again. This is a good question. I had a theology teacher in high school (I'm one of those evil Papists) who claimed that she would let an assailant kill her. She did not believe in a distinction between murder and kill - to her, causing ANY human's death was a sin, no matter what the reason. She said she might kill anyone who tried to harm a family member just out of motherly love, but said she would never defend herself. I think this is just loony, no disrespect to her beliefs. But it is loony. I see the Hebrews killing left and right in the Old Testament, and not just to protect from a fatal mugging, either. Religious precedent aside, I believe self defense is a basic human right. Every man, woman, and child has the right to defend their own lives regardless of race, religion, or country. I might [i]say[/i] I respect pacifists, but really I laugh at them behind their backs. If it's between me and my potential murderer, he's going down. Plus I will follow the letter of the law, which in some cases gives me the right to shoot to protect my property. Bible quotes are unnecessary, I've got the Texas deadly force statutes right here!
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 11:59:42 AM EST
Bzzzzt! Wrong! If you kill the mugger who is going to kill you to take goods from you, you've killed him in the act of attempting murder not in the act of robbing. If you killed him for robbing you would face murder charges (very possibly). The concept of self-defense is hard to understand by those who value goods excessively.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 3:52:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By punkatomic: Bzzzzt! Wrong! If you kill the mugger who is going to kill you to take goods from you, you've killed him in the act of attempting murder not in the act of robbing. If you killed him for robbing you would face murder charges (very possibly). The concept of self-defense is hard to understand by those who value goods excessively.
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Bzzt-Bzzt. Wrongo! As stated in the original post: "The bad guy wants your wallet and your jewelry, [b]and is going to kill you[/b] to take them." If a man is going to rob me, I automatically believe he may also kill me (as he is in this hypothetical case). Therefore, I have the right to kill him under the law - as long as it is reasonable to believe that my life is in danger, as it clearly is in this example. The concept of lethal self-defense is NOT difficult to understand (or defend) IF you have a reasonable fear that you or another is in immediate danger of serious bodily harm or death, material possessions notwithstanding.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 4:07:00 PM EST
Don't worry He will repent as soon as he see the muzzle flash.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 4:22:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By Nick: Don't worry He will repent as soon as he see the muzzle flash.
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"Can you SEE the LIGHT?! Gimme' an AMEN!"
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 4:28:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 5:02:54 PM EST
Oh man, an easy one for me. There's no such thing as god, so shooting the guy would happen without a blink. BANG!! Bu-Bye!
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 5:16:48 PM EST
Let he who is without a sword sell his cloak and buy one Christ never said we were to be the bitch. Turn the other cheek is for a slap from the antis, not so they can stab you to death or rape your wife. Life is a gift from the Lord and we are charged with not squandering it by allowing it to be stolen by evil.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 5:31:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By M4: Oh man, an easy one for me. There's no such thing as god, so shooting the guy would happen without a blink. BANG!! Bu-Bye!
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Yeah, sometimes "you guys" have it too easy [;)] . . . . sometimes.
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 5:39:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/8/2002 6:12:46 PM EST
I don't shoot to kill . I shoot to stop. If I put two or three .45 slugs in the center of mass and he stops trying to kill me great. If he dies that would be his fault not mine as I was just trying to get him to stop.
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