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Posted: 3/12/2009 4:06:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2009 8:45:08 AM EDT by thanegrooms]
3/18/09 - 9:00AM Pacific

The members of AR15.com had everything to do with getting this ball rolling. Thanks to everyone!!!

I wish the NRA had given credit to its' membership and the community at large in this letter.




STATEMENT FROM NRA CHIEF LOBBYIST CHRIS W. COX
Military Surplus Cartridge Case Issue Resolved


Wednesday, March 18, 2009


Yesterday morning, the Department of Defense informed NRA-ILA that fired military small arms cartridge cases are once again eligible for sale, following a temporary suspension in such sales instituted last week. NRA-ILA began discussions with DoD shortly after the suspension took effect, and we were assured from the beginning that efforts were underway to resolve the issue favorably.

Yesterday afternoon, DoD additionally confirmed the lifting of the suspension to pro-Second Amendment United States Senators Max Baucus (D-Mont.) and Jon Tester (D-Mont.), who sent the Defense Logistics Agency (DLA) a joint letter vigorously opposing the suspension, on the grounds that it had "an impact on small businesses who sell reloaded ammunition utilizing these fired casings, and upon individual gun owners who purchase spent military brass at considerable cost savings for their personal use."

Everyone who would have been impacted by the suspension, had it become permanent, owes thanks to Senator Baucus for his leadereship on this issue, as well as to Sen. Tester and U.S. Rep. Denny Rehberg (R-Mont.), who also weighed in strongly on behalf of gun owners and the suppliers from whom they obtain ammunition reloaded with surplus military brass.

In announcing that the suspension has been lifted, DoD also made clear that no cartridge cases that, in the absence of the suspension, would have been sold for reloading purposes were destroyed while the suspension was in effect. Such cases were instead protected by DoD during the suspension, and are again eligible for sale. With ammunition currently in short supply, that was welcome news, to be sure.

DLA also put to rest various theories and rumors that were circulated on the internet, concerning the reason for the suspension. As DLA explained to Senators Baucus and Tester, and to NRA-ILA, DoD officials responsible for the demilitarization of military property temporarily halted the release of the cartridge cases last week, pending review of a policy change issued last year by the Office of the Secretary of Defense, which, in the interest of national security, halted the sale of items within a broad category of government property including, but not limited to, surplus small arms cartridge cases.

To make cartridge cases eligible for sale once again, DoD demilitarization officials verified that the cases could be appropriately placed in a category of government property allowing for their release for use within the United States, and then executed the recategorization. Whereas during the brief suspension, fired cartridge cases would have been releaseable only if the purchaser crushed or smelted them, now the cases may be sold as before, intact and reloadable.

DoD also assured NRA-ILA that companies previously authorized to purchase cartridge cases under Trade Security Controls need no further vetting at this time, and are eligible to resume purchasing cases under the policy adopted yesterday.

In sum, a problem that could have had serious repercussions for the remanufactured ammunition industry and the countless gun owners who support it, appears to have been resolved quickly.






3/17/09 5:45PM Pacific

MORE GREAT INFO


Dear MSSA Friends,

I just received a phone call from the office of U.S. Senator Tester of Montana to inform me that at 5:15 (EST) today a letter cosigned by Senator Tester (D-MT) and Senator Baucus (D-MT) was faxed to the Department of Defense asking DoD to reverse its new policy requiring destruction of fired military cartridge brass. At 5:30, I am told, Tester's office received a fax back from DoD saying that the brass destruction policy IS reversed.

Others report to me that they are already seeing evidence of this on the Websites of entities that liquidate surplus DoD commodities.

Our thanks go out to Senator Tester and Senator Baucus, and their staff, for getting on this problem promptly and making the reversal happen

Staff for Tester and Baucus promise they will get me the documentation for this reversal tomorrow morning. I'll forward that when I get it.

Best wishes,

Gary Marbut, president
Montana Shooting Sports Association
http://www.mtssa.org
author, Gun Laws of Montana
http://www.mtpublish.com



and -


http://www.georgia-arms.com/

Dear Loyal Customers,

Thanks to your voice, DOD has rescinded the order to mutilate all spent cases as of 4:30 pm on 3/17/09. We appreciate the time and effort that you expended, together we all made a difference. We will be posting the email we received from DOD as well as any additional information within the next 12-16 hours. Thanks so much and lets get to work!!! Georgia Arms




*** This post came from an employee of Government Liquidation ***

3/17/09 - 1:45PM Pacific

Originally Posted By Epic_Ed:
.... The facts as I know them, which come directly from candid discussions with my CEO, indicate the following:

- Prior to 11/2008, Demil B items required no mutilation for sale to the public. That policy changed in November, but several exceptions were granted. Expended munitions brass was one of those given a waiver.

- Enter the new administration. Since Demil B category items had been given a broad, general label as "national security sensitive" someone above the DRMS (likely in the DLA) reviewed the policy and immediately went with a CYA policy and yanked all exemptions. No thoughts or considerations were given to the implications of this policy change, but this directive was issued to DOD Surplus effective immediately last week.

- Shit storm blows up as a result. In particular, the letters, phone calls, and emails to our legislators, the media, and anyone else who would listen caused this policy to be review post haste.

- As of this morning our company was informed that expended munitions brass will now be reclassified as Demil Q –– which requires no mutilation unless sold to a foreign country.


There you have it. The policy change was simply the result of some n00b administrator attempting to close a perceived "national security" loophole and brass got caught up in the snare. There was no political motivation behind the policy change, but it is good that people like us were suspicious, got involved, and helped bring about a resolution.

Ed




Consolidation and Readers Digest version of events since Thursday night 3/12/09.


An email was sent by Government Liquidation (the DOD vendor who controls sale of once fired brass) to customers who have bought scrap metal and other surplus from them in the past.

I posted this email on AR15.com about 15 minutes after I received it.

Here is the content of the email:


Dear Valued Customer:

Please take a moment to note important changes set forth by the Defense Logistics Agency:

Recently it has been determined that fired munitions of all calibers, shapes and sizes have been designated to be Demil code B. As a result and in conjunction with DLA's current Demil code B policy, this notice will serve as official notification which requires Scrap Venture (SV) to implement mutilation as a condition of sale for all sales of fired munitions effective immediately. This notice also requires SV to immediately cease delivery of any fired munitions that have been recently sold or on active term contracts, unless the material has been mutilated prior to sale or SV personnel can attest to the mutilation after delivery. A certificate of destruction is required in either case.

Thank you,

DOD Surplus


I replied to the GL email and CC’d other departments in GL in hopes of confirming the information.

Hello,

Does this mean that ALL fired brass ammunition cases are to be destroyed?

Do current lots require destruction? ... like this one:

http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2263403&convertTo=USD


Thank you,
Thane Grooms



I also phoned some of my contacts in GL and SV (Scrap Venture aka GL’s corporate entity that has the DOD scrap metal contract). I confirmed from them that as of yesterday (3/12/09) ALL brass is only to be sold as scrap and as such, must be destroyed. It will no longer require an EUC (End Use Certificate), so that scrap buyers can pick it up immediately and submit the destruction certificate. In the SV managers words... "The reloaders are screwed.”

In the meantime a major shitstorm was underway here on ARFCOM. (see rest of thread)



I finally got a reply from GL

Here's the reply......


Dear Thane,

Thank you for your e-mail. The recently implemented mutilation requirement applies to all current and future auctions that contain fired shell casings.

We appreciate your cooperation and understanding in this matter.

Sincerely,

Customer Service Management
Government Liquidation, LLC
DOD Surplus, LLC
15051 N. Kierland Blvd, Ste 300
Scottsdale, AZ 85254
Ph: 480.367.1300
Fax: 480.367.1450
Email: info@govliquidation.com
Online Help:http://www.govliquidation.com/help/index.html
-k-



Many still don’t want to believe this is anything more than hysterical rumors and/or just a random decision by low-level management. I remind you, if the people who have physical and legal control of DOD’s once fired brass tell you that it must be destroyed and even brass that is currently listed or recently purchased and you “don’t believe them”, well you’re in denial.



Other Links:

http://www.georgia-arms.com/

http://gibrass.com/brass.html

http://www.theshootist.net/2009/03/dod-ends-sale-of-expended-military.html

http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=1366951


... and the rest of the gun world...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS210US210&q=DOD+fired+brass&btnG=Search



As of 3/17/09 all fired brass lots for sale have been deleted or relisted to read:

BASE SCALES AVAILABLE FOR WEIGHING OF CONVEYANCE. ALL SCRAP UNDER THIS CONTRACT REQUIRES MUTILATION BY THE BUYER PRIOR TO REMOVAL IF ALLOWED BY THE INSTALLATION OR MUTILATION MUST BE WITNESSED AND CERTIFIED BY DOD SURPLUS PERSONNEL AT ANOTHER FACILITY. TITLE TO THE MATERIAL DOES NOT PASS TO THE BUYER UNTIL THE SCRAP HAS BEEN MUTILATED. BUYER AGREES TO ALLOW USG PERSONNEL TO WITNESS DESTRUCTION.








Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:10:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2009 4:10:55 PM EDT by Subnet]
Jesus Christ, who do they hire to write this shit? Is clear, effective communication outlawed, or what?

How about: "Official Notice: We're no longer selling you once fired brass, unless it's been mutilated first."


EDIT: "This notice will serve as official notification..."

Are they paid by the letter?
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:10:59 PM EDT
I had to wake up at sunset and read this......
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:11:54 PM EDT
Another nail in the reloading coffin. Nope no coincidence there, just pure chance. Just a random act. That and all the ammunition shortages, obviously caused by horders. Nope nothing to see here people. Move along.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:13:15 PM EDT
Well then, there goes ALL military brass.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:13:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:15:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:16:55 PM EDT
Ahhh shit.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:16:55 PM EDT
bohica
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:17:23 PM EDT
Demil code B isn't mutiliation. But it does prohibit export sales.

And there is something fishy there because all fired brass, .50 cal and under was code B. 20mm and above was demil code D.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:18:01 PM EDT
Source? Someone forgot to tell these guys.

http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2263403&convertTo=USD
LOT (3420) APPROX FIRED BRASS, (8)BARRELS (PLASTIC AND METAL), ON(4)PALLETS, (4) BARRELS OF 7. 62 APPROX 1700 LBS, (4) BARRELS OF 5. 56 APPROX 1720 LBS, WEIGHT OF PALLETS AND BARRELS ARE INCLUDED IN TOTAL WEIGHT, NO MUTILATION REQUIRED, PREVIEW AND LOAD OUT BY APPOINTMENT.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:20:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2009 4:21:11 PM EDT by thanegrooms]
Originally Posted By RacerXXL:
Source? Someone forgot to tell these guys.

http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2263403&convertTo=USD
LOT (3420) APPROX FIRED BRASS, (8)BARRELS (PLASTIC AND METAL), ON(4)PALLETS, (4) BARRELS OF 7. 62 APPROX 1700 LBS, (4) BARRELS OF 5. 56 APPROX 1720 LBS, WEIGHT OF PALLETS AND BARRELS ARE INCLUDED IN TOTAL WEIGHT, NO MUTILATION REQUIRED, PREVIEW AND LOAD OUT BY APPOINTMENT.



Not to worry. The DLA does whatever they damn well please. That description doesn't mean anything.


ETA: The email came from GovLiquidation.

Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:20:47 PM EDT
Now, does this affect XM193 and surplus M855 seconds from federal and lake city, or just fired brass?
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:22:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Meadowmuffin:
Now, does this affect XM193 and surplus M855 seconds from federal and lake city, or just fired brass?


Definitely. All scrap from LC is handled by the local DRMO through DLA policies.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:26:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Originally Posted By Meadowmuffin:
Now, does this affect XM193 and surplus M855 seconds from federal and lake city, or just fired brass?


Definitely. All scrap from LC is handled by the local DRMO through DLA policies.


Are you saying that there will be no more of this ammo hitting the market? All it would take is a ban on imported ammo via EO and there would be virtually NO ammo for anyone to buy for their AR-15.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:26:49 PM EDT
Gee, been at war for almost 8 years now, and all of a sudden they have a logistics problem from not having enough spare brass?
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:26:53 PM EDT
and so it begins....
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:29:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Originally Posted By Meadowmuffin:
Now, does this affect XM193 and surplus M855 seconds from federal and lake city, or just fired brass?


Definitely. All scrap from LC is handled by the local DRMO through DLA policies.


Are you saying that there will be no more of this ammo hitting the market? All it would take is a ban on imported ammo via EO and there would be virtually NO ammo for anyone to buy for their AR-15.


How about Winchester Q3131 or did they stop all together? I know they made it in 2002 and later.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:29:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Originally Posted By Meadowmuffin:
Now, does this affect XM193 and surplus M855 seconds from federal and lake city, or just fired brass?


Definitely. All scrap from LC is handled by the local DRMO through DLA policies.


Are you saying that there will be no more of this ammo hitting the market? All it would take is a ban on imported ammo via EO and there would be virtually NO ammo for anyone to buy for their AR-15.


Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:29:59 PM EDT
Ammo shortage, what ammo shortage. Theres plenty at walmart!
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:30:09 PM EDT
YGBSM
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:31:50 PM EDT
Certainly! I'll mutilate and/or destroy it....I'll fill it with explosives and detonate under high pressure! And repeat as needed.

I can play that game.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:34:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
YGBSM


que
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:34:39 PM EDT
Fuck.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:35:11 PM EDT
The Obama tentacles are getting into everything
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:36:20 PM EDT
TAG
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:36:24 PM EDT
Tagging this.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:36:43 PM EDT
Wow. That effin suxxx
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:37:26 PM EDT
in for updates, and hopefully this shit won't stand.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:37:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:38:44 PM EDT
and so it begins...
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:39:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Primos:
Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
YGBSM


que


YOU GOTTA BE SHITTING ME
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:40:18 PM EDT
Sigh, and tag.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:42:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Originally Posted By Meadowmuffin:
Now, does this affect XM193 and surplus M855 seconds from federal and lake city, or just fired brass?


Definitely. All scrap from LC is handled by the local DRMO through DLA policies.


Scrap yes, but the ammo coming out no, as it is part of the contract that comes with running the facility they can sell the seconds and excess production

If it was coming through DRMO we wouldn't have the stuff we do now- no live ammo comes through DRMO.


Where did you get that?

The only ammo coming from LCAAP was through the ODCM back when it was a part of the US Army. Since its split in 1996, the DCM became the CMP and it is a self-standing non-profit organization.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:43:19 PM EDT
What's bad is not being able to say "and so it begins" due to having said that already a couple of months ago.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:45:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
Originally Posted By Primos:
Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
YGBSM


que


YOU GOTTA BE SHITTING ME


THANK YOU.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:47:58 PM EDT
Just great!
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:48:07 PM EDT
Looks like it's time for a new upper in a different caliber.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:48:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:48:24 PM EDT
But, but, but......

I was told that Obama didn't have executive power to do any kind of gun restriction without the participation of congress.


Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:49:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2009 4:54:57 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:51:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GonzoAR15-1:
But, but, but......

I was told that Obama didn't have executive power to do any kind of gun restriction without the participation of congress.




where do you get that this is coming from Obama?
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:54:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
The verbage in that letter looks fake. It is unsourced and I can google whole paragraphs of that letter and cannot find it anywhere on the internet.

I am calling shenanigans.


Nope. It's real. It came to me from Goverment Liquidation.

Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:55:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2009 4:56:11 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:55:45 PM EDT
I googled

Expended small arms cartridge cases, caliber .50 and
under, after being properly inspected, certified, and verified, shall be crushed, shredded, or
otherwise destroyed prior to public sale through a Qualified Recycling Program.


Here:
https://demil.osd.mil/demil_get_file.asp?link_id=315
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:56:23 PM EDT
When they make changes like this, their inventory system won't update the lots until midnight EST.

Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:56:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2009 4:59:49 PM EDT by TacticalMOLONLABE]
Just farking great

ETA On no more surplus M1 Garands and M1 Carbines?
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:58:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2009 5:05:25 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 4:58:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
What is the source of this?

Something fishy here. Demil code B does not require mutilation unless old outside the USA.

Demil C,D,E,F,G,P require demil. Not B.

Also, most military brass is not sold under the Scrap Venture program mentioned in this mystery letter. The scrap venture program is where you bid on all scrap at one location for a given time- say you bid $1 a pound for all brass at lcoation A for the next six months.

Almost all small arms brass is sold in normal auctions, not via the Scrap Venture program.



On second thought, what you said makes alot of sense. Could be a forged letter.
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 5:01:33 PM EDT
Well, my shitty FC brass is looking better now... I still wish it were LC brass but two 5-gal buckets of cleaned and polished FC brass is a nice reserve.

Those with LC brass now have an asset worth holding onto!
Link Posted: 3/12/2009 5:01:52 PM EDT
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