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Posted: 2/26/2009 3:34:16 PM EST
What gun do you think would be superior for grizzly bear defense?

A Marlin 45/70 gun guide with hot loads....

or a 12 gauge loaded with 3" or 3 1/2" slugs



Discuss.

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:35:30 PM EST
.45-70 has deeper penetration, even with express bullets (330 grain).

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:35:49 PM EST
I went with both
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:36:02 PM EST
I use an aluminum baseball bat for bear defense.


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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:36:04 PM EST
I think the 45/70 is a handier gun to tote. I believe the 12gauge offers more energy, but the 45/70 has plenty to get the job done so its a moot point.
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:36:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN:
I use an aluminum baseball bat for bear defense.


ARFCOM taught me this.


that was a great thread.

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:37:22 PM EST
Well the 45-70 has killed just about every animal on earth. 12 ga. slugs sometimes fail to kill deer. Does that answer your question?
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:37:49 PM EST
45/70 but the 12 gauge is much more versatile.

The GG is a one trick pony compared to an 870 with mag slug loads and buckshot and birdshot in the pack.

But in the face of a griz, I would want a .375 or bigger.



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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:38:19 PM EST
I don't worry too much about bears, but I it was problem I'd rather have the 45/70 and a heavy, heat treated cast bullet with a big meplat. That said I wouldn't feel too bad about having a 12ga with Brenekke slugs.

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:38:25 PM EST
Id tote my 45-70..................and whatever happened to the guy who was gonna hunt bear with a spear??
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:39:35 PM EST
500 S&W Magnum = 440 grain .50 cal @ 1600 fps
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:39:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:
45/70 but the 12 gauge is much more versatile.

The GG is a one trick pony compared to an 870 with mag slug loads and buckshot and birdshot in the pack.

But in the face of a griz, I would want a .375 or bigger.




He did not ask which was more versatile. The question was pretty simple.
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:40:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Well the 45-70 has killed just about every animal on earth. 12 ga. slugs sometimes fail to kill deer. Does that answer your question?




I'm sure the .45-70 has failed a few times as well. Slugs have more than enough penetration to kill deer, and they are .50" and larger, so a 12 gage slug failure would pretty much have to be the result of very poor placement.


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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:42:45 PM EST
45-70 with garret 540grn hammerheads @1550 fps

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:42:57 PM EST
I got both.

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:44:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2009 3:46:33 PM EST by burns117]
Originally Posted By AJTurner1234:
What gun do you think would be superior for grizzly bear defense?

A Marlin 45/70 gun guide with hot loads....

or a 12 gauge loaded with 3" or 3 1/2" slugs



Discuss.


12 gauge is so close or just a tad better than the 45/70 it all boils down to what you want one is not better that the other

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:44:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By The_Distance:
I got both.


yeah, but you can't shoot both at the same time; sooner or later, you've got to make a decision.

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:45:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Well the 45-70 has killed just about every animal on earth. 12 ga. slugs sometimes fail to kill deer. Does that answer your question?




I'm sure the .45-70 has failed a few times as well. Slugs have more than enough penetration to kill deer, and they are .50" and larger, so a 12 gage slug failure would pretty much have to be the result of very poor placement.



Depends on the slug. The old 'rifled slugs' , the cup shaped ones with the ribs, are very soft and sometime just flatten out and fail to penetrate. They totall suck as a big game bullet. Other designs such as sabbot slugs and Brennekie type slugs are much better. But in general 45-70 is always a better choice than 12 ga. slugs.

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:45:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2009 3:47:42 PM EST by burns117]
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Well the 45-70 has killed just about every animal on earth. 12 ga. slugs sometimes fail to kill deer. Does that answer your question?


Dumbest thing I have ever read like the 45 70 hasn't failed to kill with bad shots.
edit
the new sabot slugs like Hornady SST make this a what do you have question, not what is better .

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:46:45 PM EST
either one will get the job done


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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:47:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2009 3:50:14 PM EST by theliberating1]

Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Well the 45-70 has killed just about every animal on earth. 12 ga. slugs sometimes fail to kill deer. Does that answer your question?

12 gauge slugs don't fail to kill deer, poor shooting does.



I'd be comfortable with either.
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:48:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By bluetick357:
45-70 with garret 540grn hammerheads @1550 fps


I flinched just reading that!


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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:49:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By theliberating1:

Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Well the 45-70 has killed just about every animal on earth. 12 ga. slugs sometimes fail to kill deer. Does that answer your question?

12 gauge slugs don't fail to kill deer, poor shooting does.

No need for logic.


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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:50:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By CK:
500 S&W Magnum = 440 grain .50 cal @ 1600 fps


Divie gun works Hardened slugs, .60 caliber. Not much is going to beat this load

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:52:14 PM EST
Originally Posted By theliberating1:

Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Well the 45-70 has killed just about every animal on earth. 12 ga. slugs sometimes fail to kill deer. Does that answer your question?

12 gauge slugs don't fail to kill deer, poor shooting does.



I'd be comfortable with either.



Sometimes 12 Ga. slugs fail despite good shooting and proper shot placement. They are just not a good choice when facing a dangerous animal.
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:52:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2009 3:52:59 PM EST by Headless_T_Gunner]
Double tap.
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:52:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2009 3:53:02 PM EST by ArmyInfantryVet]
No Grizzly around here to worry about...

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:57:10 PM EST
Ok. Lets try this logic. Who you going to believe, someone who has actually killed a bear or someone who has a lot of experience reading about shotgun slugs on the internet?
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:58:14 PM EST
45-70

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 3:59:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Ok. Lets try this logic. Who you going to believe, someone who has actually killed a bear or someone who has a lot of experience reading about shotgun slugs on the internet?


I believe the guy that's killed bear: Me
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:00:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Originally Posted By theliberating1:

Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Well the 45-70 has killed just about every animal on earth. 12 ga. slugs sometimes fail to kill deer. Does that answer your question?

12 gauge slugs don't fail to kill deer, poor shooting does.



I'd be comfortable with either.



Sometimes 12 Ga. slugs fail despite good shooting and proper shot placement. They are just not a good choice when facing a dangerous animal.


At what range? We aren't talking about dangerous game... you said deer.
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:00:31 PM EST
45.70 FTW

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:01:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Originally Posted By theliberating1:

Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Well the 45-70 has killed just about every animal on earth. 12 ga. slugs sometimes fail to kill deer. Does that answer your question?

12 gauge slugs don't fail to kill deer, poor shooting does.



I'd be comfortable with either.



Sometimes 12 Ga. slugs fail despite good shooting and proper shot placement. They are just not a good choice when facing a dangerous animal.



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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:02:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Ok. Lets try this logic. Who you going to believe, someone who has actually killed a bear or someone who has a lot of experience reading about shotgun slugs on the internet?


Unless you tried to kill a bear with a 12 gauge slug and failed... what you just typed makes no sense.
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:03:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Ok. Lets try this logic. Who you going to believe, someone who has actually killed a bear or someone who has a lot of experience reading about shotgun slugs on the internet?


I have killed bear deer and man with 12 gauge slugs and nothing says dead right now better than a slug.

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:03:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Well the 45-70 has killed just about every animal on earth. 12 ga. slugs sometimes fail to kill deer. Does that answer your question?




I'm sure the .45-70 has failed a few times as well. Slugs have more than enough penetration to kill deer, and they are .50" and larger, so a 12 gage slug failure would pretty much have to be the result of very poor placement.



Depends on the slug. The old 'rifled slugs' , the cup shaped ones with the ribs, are very soft and sometime just flatten out and fail to penetrate. They totall suck as a big game bullet. Other designs such as sabbot slugs and Brennekie type slugs are much better. But in general 45-70 is always a better choice than 12 ga. slugs.



I don't doubt that the old style slugs are less than ideal on a large bear, but I have trouble with the idea that they fail to penetrait sufficiently for deer.


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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:04:07 PM EST
.375 H&H For Brown bears , 12 gauge for Black Bears
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:04:36 PM EST
I would trust myself with a 45/70 before 12 Gauge slugs.

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:04:47 PM EST
Go with a 338 or 375 magnum and forget the 45/70 or 12 ga.
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:05:03 PM EST


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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:07:10 PM EST
A 12-gauge slug will do the job, but a .45-70 will fuck shit up and then some.
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:07:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By theliberating1:

Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Ok. Lets try this logic. Who you going to believe, someone who has actually killed a bear or someone who has a lot of experience reading about shotgun slugs on the internet?


Unless you tried to kill a bear with a 12 gauge slug and failed... what you just typed makes no sense.


There is but one way to settle this. I challange you to a grizzly bear hunt. You use a 12 ga. with slugs and I will use a 45-70. You may go first.

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:09:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN:
I use an aluminum baseball bat for bear defense.


ARFCOM taught me this.


Stern look raised eye brow...
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:12:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Originally Posted By theliberating1:

Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Ok. Lets try this logic. Who you going to believe, someone who has actually killed a bear or someone who has a lot of experience reading about shotgun slugs on the internet?


Unless you tried to kill a bear with a 12 gauge slug and failed... what you just typed makes no sense.


There is but one way to settle this. I challange you to a grizzly bear hunt. You use a 12 ga. with slugs and I will use a 45-70. You may go first.



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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:13:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By postpostban:
Originally Posted By CK:
500 S&W Magnum = 440 grain .50 cal @ 1600 fps


Divie gun works Hardened slugs, .60 caliber. Not much is going to beat this load


I bought a bunch of his Terminator loads when he first came out with them.

It is a whole different kind of whoop-ass.

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:14:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By only1asterisk:
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Originally Posted By theliberating1:

Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Ok. Lets try this logic. Who you going to believe, someone who has actually killed a bear or someone who has a lot of experience reading about shotgun slugs on the internet?


Unless you tried to kill a bear with a 12 gauge slug and failed... what you just typed makes no sense.


There is but one way to settle this. I challange you to a grizzly bear hunt. You use a 12 ga. with slugs and I will use a 45-70. You may go first.



You pay and I'm in.


How about the loser pays?

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:14:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By david_g17:
Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN:
I use an aluminum baseball bat for bear defense.


ARFCOM taught me this.


that was a great thread.


Was that better than the thread about the guy that killed a bear with a buck knife?

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:14:49 PM EST
Gee, I think I'd lean towards a .45-70.


A semi auto 12guage would be plenty handy... but I'd feed many many rounds through it to ensure it was reliable.

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:15:27 PM EST
I'm going to say they're about even in performance, with the edge possibly going to a shotgun loaded with magnum Brenekes. That's what I would choose if my bacon was on the line anyway.

Check out this bear defense report. Kind of like an old school 'Box of Truth' (halfway down the page- "view and print this publication"). The 405 gr. 45/70 is dead even with the 12 ga. 2 3/4 load. This goes without saying that there are better choices today for each.

http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/5573

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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:15:40 PM EST
Only this forum would argue like hell about two big killers.

Whats better 152mm howitzer or 155mm


Which is why I don't understand these questions here. I mean I understand because these threads are train wrecks, but....

Doesn't it depend more on what you use in them? I know of some pretty lame ass 45/70 and kick ass 12
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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:15:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Originally Posted By only1asterisk:
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Originally Posted By theliberating1:

Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Ok. Lets try this logic. Who you going to believe, someone who has actually killed a bear or someone who has a lot of experience reading about shotgun slugs on the internet?


Unless you tried to kill a bear with a 12 gauge slug and failed... what you just typed makes no sense.


There is but one way to settle this. I challange you to a grizzly bear hunt. You use a 12 ga. with slugs and I will use a 45-70. You may go first.



You pay and I'm in.


How about the loser pays?



Define loser?
I want to buy your Berdan primed brass!
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