Since the 9/11 incident I have become a bit tired as of late of hearing, on a near hourly basis, how the police and firemen are our "Heroes".  It's absolutely constant.  Mind you, I am grateful for what they do but I also do feel that they are indeed doing their [b]job[/b].  Is is dangerous?  Yes.  But it's their [b]job[/b].  They chose.  Is it unappreciated?  Yes.  But it's their [b]job[/b].  It was a choice to select that specific career and any and all inherent risks.

I think it's horribe that so many LEO's and firemen were killed on that September day, but I honestly don't think their lives are "worth" any more, or deserve more mourning, or more allocades than any of the other folks killed in those buildings that day.

You know who the [b]real heroes[/b] are in this mess?  The very small group of men on United Flight 93 [b]who without request or duty[/b] gave their lives on September 11th by rushing the terrorists and crashing the plane into a Pennsylvania cornfield before it could be used to kill the masses.  

It was not their job.

They were not asked to do this.

They did it becasue they were real Americans and true patriots.  They drew a line in the sky that day and said, "No more.  Not here.  Not in this plane.  Not in my country."

I want everyone to understand, in no way is this thread any type of LEO or Fireman bashing topic.  Please don't even go there. I guess I feel the title of "hero" can become diluted when it's thrown around like pez.

So to the members here, (hopefully including some LEO's and Firemen) I ask: Do you really think this barrage of "hero" labeling by the media and gubmint is overdone?

Thanks for your input.

CMOS

Anyone who rushes into a burning building while everyone else is rushing out, is a hero!

Anyone who lingers in an area assisting injured and dying humanity, knowing that at any moment the building may collapse on top of them, is a hero.

Anyone that knowingly gets within five blocks of a 108 story building that could come crashing down in their direction at any moment is a hero.

And anyone who thinks differently is an idiot!

I mean, c'mon, even Sgt. Alvin York was just doing his job! As was every single other recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor, etc.

Eric The('Idiot'IsPuttingItMildly!)Hun[>]:)]

Strike the word "idiot" twice and I concur.
[smoke]

In my opinion anyone who is willing to lay down there life especialy for a stranger whether it is for money or not is a hero.

I agree 100% with CMOS.

Heroes all. 'Nuff said.

There isn't any way I could agree with you more!

[beer]!

OK, I am biased in the extreme on this subject. But you asked, and here it comes:

I have been a member of 'the fire department' for all of my adult life. Usually we are merely tolerated. As a volunteer, when my pager goes off, I usually get unappreciative stares. When I respond to the firehouse, I get unappreciative stares and refusal to give the right of way. When I am piloting a 64,000lb aerial ladder to a working house fire, I get unappreciative stares, refusal to give the right of way, and on occasion purposeful obstruction. This is as a volunteer (and I have yet to hear a fire ask me whether I am getting paid or not).

As a Paramedic Lieutenant (paid) I get shot at, exposed to ethyl-methyl-bad-sh!t, unappreciative stares, purposeful obstruction, dogs set upon me by drug dealers. I have wrestled with the insane, the armed, the armed insane.

Before 9/11 when I went to get a cup of coffee, in a swanky neighborhood, I get...you guessed it! Unappreciative stares. I am not fit to eat with you, sit in your restaraunt, or be seen until the shtf. When I am called to bring calm to the scene, what does John Q. Public give me? A lecture on how to do my job. For the record, I have an excellent service record and am 'highly decorated', and at this point in my career, I do not need some CPA telling me what the law is as it pertains to my problem at the time.

So what does all this mean? Before 9/11 I [b]NEVER[/b] asked for anything from John Q. and Jane Public, other than to stay out of my way and let me do my job. I am not a 'hero' I am a ordinary guy called upon to act extraordinarily when the situation calls for it. The [b]HEROS[/b] are the 343 of my brothers lined up outside Saint Peter's office, demanding to know what the f*ck just happened', the 40+ LEO's who are there beside my brothers asking the same question. It is about time the public really knows what a great deal they got when they hired my brothers...and the same great deal they get every single day we all report to work.

Are we heros? To you, perhaps not, and I won't loose a single second of sleep over it. But for those who finally realize what they got from us, I say: [b] ITS ABOUT TIME[/b]

As for those who tried to retake the plane...They too are heros to me, and I am sorry they do not get their due from the media. But who is ever truely happy with the media?

DVD, I understand that you may be dumbfounded but I do see it from another angle.  Make no mistake, I think what the police and firemen did that day was very brave and applaudable, but again, my point is - it's their JOB.  

It's their job to " rush into a burning building while everyone else is rushing out"

It's their job to "linger in an area assisting injured and dying humanity, knowing that at any moment the building may collapse on top of them"

It's their job to "get within five blocks of a 108 story building that could come crashing down in their direction at any moment"

If they [b]didn't[/b] do those things, they'd be fired, right?  

Where are all the hourly tributes to all the other 3000+ people that got killed on that day?  That's one of my points - why are the police and firement seen as being "more important" or "worth more" than the average Joe or Jane that got killed that day?

Good to hear opinons on this from different angles.  Thanks for your replies.

CMOS

I too am sick of hearing about it, but many of them are heroes.  They could have stayed safe in their cars and yelled "run for your life" on the bullhorn.  They are not obligated to protect anyone and would still be "doing their job".  Many of the went "above and beyond" the call, and paid the price with their life.  Most of the real heroes are dead, but I still gotta give props to those that survived.

They are not heros. Baseball players are heros because they play a game and make lots of money. Why just a year and a half ago Bill Klinton stood on a stage with Sammy Sosa and proclaimed him a great hero.[pissed]

Post from riddler -

Do you know THAT for a fact?

I would think that any experienced fireman would know precisely what he was up against on that fateful morning. Fighting an aviation fuel fire on the ground is a really serious situation. Take that same fire to the 80-100 floor section of a skyscraper and it must be a supremely hazardous situation.

But come, I digress, let's hear your stories of heroic daring-do that qualifies any one of you to make any comments on what occurred on Sept 11, and what it takes to qualify as a hero!

Eric The(We'reAllEars,Now!)Hun[>]:)]

BTW, you wouldn't even give the Chaplain a gold star by his name for dying while giving last rites to dying firemen, police and civilians? If you're not thoroughly ashamed, then you need your heads and hearts examined!

Well, they could have chickened out and not gone inside, just like some of our servicemen desert or claim conscientious objector status when military action starts.

In my eyes, they performed as was expected: in a heroic fashion.  If they had lived, they'd have said "I was just doin' my job".

From time to time you see people perform heroically, like my friend who dived into a freezing cold river to save someone who was drowning.  He was just a passerby.  On the other hand, he could have just walked on and probably not be prosecuted.

I think we venerate people like the NY firefighters and cops because they live up to expectations how we think people should be like in those circumstances.  I think that's reasonable.

D/C Downey, Commanding Officer of the Special Operations Command was giving the order to evacuate when he was struck down. All the preplans said that both buildings could take a hit from a plane. Yet we all went in, knowing that we could be killed regardless if the building collapsed. [b]REGARDLESS[/b] .

Lt John Clancy Ladder 127 Killed in the line of duty 12-27-95. That is the Job you are referring to.

Well said.

Okay all you jerk-offs who don't think people who serve us in these high-risk rolls (FD, LE, Military) are heros, let us know what heroic job you do every day?  

Is Michael Jordan your hero?  Maybe Tiger Woods, Tom Cruise, or some other celebrity that people (who don't understand what a hero is) look up to??  I think it is great to see some of these people who protect your ass get some credit!

FOAD

OK, let me put this as simply as I can.

Name for us one Congressional Medal of Honor winner who was not a paid, on-the-job, working within the scope of his employment, serviceman at the time that his actions 'earned' him that Medal.

Eric The(TheyAreHeroes,AndNothingWeLittleFolksSayCanTakeThatAway!)Hun[>]:)]

Okay guys, let's bump this up a notch.  Let's move forward to AFTER the 9/11 mourning of the LEO's and Firemen.  The media and gubmint are still constantly labeling the police as "heroes" becasue "they are protecting us from the terrorism."

The same questions still apply:  Are they really heroes for going out on their normal assigned duty patrols?  What are they doing, ritht now, to protect us from terrorism , that makes them heroes?  Most of us here know damn well that if a terrorist wanted to throw a single grenade into a shopping mall there is NO LEO that could prevent it.  So, when it somes to "defending us from terrorism" after the 9/11 incident, is this being a hero or doing their job?

Again, I respectfully say it's their job.

Good input guys.

CMOS

CMOS, yeah they really weren't doing anything special. Just a job. A Job only a hero would sign up for to begin with.

Think what you like, When public safety officers die trying to save your life, they are hereos, every f***ing one of them.

Someone asked:  "Why did so many firemen die, couldn't they have run out?"  The fireman who answered simply said "Firemen don't run out of burning buildings, they run in".

Hereos.

Period.

You answered your own question CMOS.  They are heroes by virtue of the fact that they CHOOSE TO DO THE JOB IN THE FIRST PLACE.  
 Nobody is ordered to be a cop or a fireman...they choose a very risky job that very few people have the stomach for. That's part of being a hero, doing a crappy job that has to be done, even though nobody would hold you at fault for NOT doing it.

Forgotten about? I think not. Ask the American Red Cross, and the other dozen some odd organizations that have reised money in their name. There are only 3-4 organizations I can think of that are for FF,LEO and EMS. For those non-emergency people killed at WTC, it will be like hitting LOTTO (and they deserve every penny they get) as for your remark about who is more important...Nobody is more important. But we ran in while they ran out.

If you dont get it now..you never will. And one more thing I and my family like to think I am worth significantly mre than what I gross annually. I cant think of anyone who does it for the money...we get paid to do something we would do for free if we could.

Thanks, thebeekeeper1. I am not, nor will I ever be a hero.

But I haven't forgotten what they look like!

Eric The(AndTheyLookLikeFiremen&LEOsToMe)Hun[>]:)]

The lineman can go to the house and politely ask the occupants to relocate for the night. He saves the family and is a hero.

As for me, every timy I go to a fire, I ask it politely to leave the house and allow me to rescue the little girl hidden in the closet, but it never complies...[;D]

Ever compare apples to oranges?

Ever enter a building on fire?

Wolf, look at the words used, important vs. hero. they are two completely different concepts.  I did not say they were more important, just heroic.

BTW, we sell Icees at my store, not Slurpees.

My father and my uncle were both volunteer firemen out in our little home town in West Texas. One black night, my Uncle Bob went down into a grain elevator to rescue three young boys who had gotten lost in one of the underground vaults. He pulled two to safety, and, still gagging on the methane fumes, went back into the pit for the third.

He came out alive, but holding the limp body of the third child.  I had never seen a grown man cry like that before or since.

When my Uncle Bob died, the citizenry of three small West Texas towns (Crowell, Quanah, and Chillicothe) came out and we all cried together. The mother and father of the boy who had died came and cried as well.

Eric The(ThereWereGiantsInTheEarthInThoseDays!)Hun[>]:)]

Post from riddler -

I usually agree with everything thebeekeeper posts, but what part are you referring to specifically? [>]:)]

Post from LtMac313 -

[b]I wouldn't do it for a Million Dollars![/b]

BTW, what's the starting pay for a FDNY fireman?

Eric The(NotQuiteAMillion,IsIt?)Hun[>]:)]

I think that anyone who places their life in danger to save anothers is a hero.

But I do not think the clean up crews deserve to be called Heros.. are they doing an incredibly hard and arduous (sp?)job - yes but IMHO this doesnt qualify you for Hero status.

On a day to day basis police and fire departments place their life on the line to protect us IMHO that makes them all Heros.

Ropes

Originally posted by thebeekeeper1 -

Well, this is one opinion that I do not share with thebeekeeper, but I do understand what he's trying to convey.

I believe that even [b]vain[/b] attempts to help someone else can qualify as heroic actions!

If you were to go through the action reports of those servicemen who were awarded the CMOH, posthumously, I am certain that you could find a lot of gallantry that some would find to be vain and useless in the practical sense.

You know the soldier who continues to charge a machinegun nest after witnessing all of his comrades get cut down.

Some would think that the little girl in the school library at Columbine, who, when asked by Harris and Klebold, with a gun pressed into her face, if she still believed in God, said 'Yes, I do' and received a fatal bullet in reply, was an idiot.

I think she was a hero, as well.

Eric The(AndIBelieveHEDoesToo!)Hun[>]:)]

I'm sorry, but your an uninformed asshole. Any professional firefighter worth his salt would have known that the killing zone from a building collapse would be 1/3 the height of the building, in this case 105? floors @ 13Ft per floor. The HIRT teams and LEO's that responded were the cream of the crop, and every man in the 'kill' zone knew the price that had to be  paid.....no greater love...I feel sorry for you.

       Capt. GIB   PFFM   20 years service

Eric, LTMac313, and to all others,

Let me reiterate my point of view:

[blue]As I have already pointed out, I know that it takes a lot for the firemen and the LEOs to do their job but it is their job. I am not trying to downplay what they did but I just have a different definition/expectations from someone who is labelled a hero.[/blue]

Honestly, we all have varying perspectives on who can be considered a hero. Someone who may be a hero to me may not be to you and vice versa. Our individual views, opinions, and beliefs are shaped by our upbringing as well as the environment we grew up in. In my first post of this thread, I apologized ahead since I know that my views will contradict the majority but that is my opinion. I am sorry but CMOS makes a valid point when he said that all those who died on 9/11 deserve equal recognition....not just the firemen and LEOs.

respectfully,

riddler

Your full of shit...You don't have a clue...So fuck off...I said that.....Gib

-----------------------------------------------
I have previously posted my agreement as to Fireman and Police being heros - they are.
Only the simple can eliminate truth and facts from their minds.

HOWEVER, WHEN YOU MENTION THE THIEVES AND EXTORTIONIST THAT MANAGE THE RED CROSS AS BENEFITTING ANYONE OTHER THAN THEMSELVES I NEARLY GO OUT OF MY PHUCKING MIND.

I will never trust the Red Cross.  Didn't before 9/11 and never will.
[smoke]

If I am an asshole as you say I am then you better read what you wrote.

Collapse?? Before the towers collapsed, did anybody think they would??? Even those who planned and executed the attack with all the data that they have did not think so. So many so called experts were dumbfounded when it did. A lot of engineers and scientists are still arguing why it did...... tsk! tsk! tsk!

I know that I may get banned for this but since you started the name calling, let me ask you this, how could someone who could not even make a logical reasoning without resorting to namecalling last 20 yrs. in service??

Sir, it is you who are pathetic. Hope that you will retire soon before your lack of "mental capability" will cause anguish to those you serve.

I think some of you guys are confusing *being heroic* with being a hero.  I admire ANYONE who acts heroically, whether it involves considerable physical danger or the risk of some other kind of suffering.  Those guys acted heroically on 9/11, and should be recognized for it.  

A hero, on the other hand, is one you admire and appreciate for doing or accomplishing grand and amazing things. Stephen Hawkings is one of my personal heroes, and I doubt he'd be able to pull anyone out of a housefire... but my hero nonetheless for his accomplishments.

Part of the problem is that the media has beaten the "hero" label to death- they apply it for their own purposes, often indiscriminately.  It cheapens and sensationalizes the term, and confuses people about what's heroic and what are heroes.

I admire those who go in harm's way.  On 9/11, many acted heroically that day.  I'm glad they're there, and support them all the way.

Well said.

and Gib, I had to leave this topic for a while because if you hadn't said that I would have...some armchair rambos don't get it and never will.

My definition of hero will never change. I know one when I see one. I saw hundreds go to their deaths on 9/11. They were trying to save others lives.


Mark Mcguire a hereo? Gimme a F***in break

gib187th,

If you think that your "foul-mouthedness" can make up for your very low IQ then please continue.....

I have twice gone into burning buildings to rescue people. Three people are alive today because of the actions of me and my bro's. I am not a firefighter, I'm a rocket builder. It wasn't my job to go into a building with poisonous gasses coming from yellow and green flames but I could hear people dying and I wasn't about to walk away from that. The firemen were prepared to retrieve bodies after the fire died down but my co-workers and me said f()ck that and went in. I have a spot on my lung now but wouldn't trade it for those mens lives. Hero? I aint no hero. I am not sure what a hero is but I know I aint one. Just a man that did what any man should do.

Not taking anything away from 99.99% of LEOs that are goodguys, but are those LEOs that died at Waco heros?

Another guy getting way too much praise is Rudy Guiliani. This guy has more ambition than anybody I've seen in a long time. He had died the second death politically, but USED this situation to posture himself before the public. Look for him to run for Pope as soon as JP II kicks the bucket.

Yes, those "individual" officers who died at Waco are probably heros.
Those that gave the orders are criminals.

Also from your description above about saving three people you also meet my criteria for hero.
[smoke]