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Posted: 12/24/2001 5:08:08 AM EDT
Some old lady totaled my truck, so this next week or so I'm going to get a new one. It will be either a GMC or a Ford Crew Cab Dually. I've never had a Diesel but I heard that the fuel milage was close to 45% better. Is this really true? Diesels used to be gutless off the line,has this changed that much? My old man has a Ford Crew Cab and he says that he gets 18 miles per gallon, but his shit is always better than mine (if you know what I mean). My Suburban with a 454 might get 12mpg on a good day. I average about 27,000 miles per year and was thinking that the fuel savings with a Diesel would justify its purchase. Any feed back would be appreciated. Thanks. Andy
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:10:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2001 5:02:49 AM EDT by BenDover]
If you go diesel you can cook up bio-diesel in your back yard for free. My father in law has been running bio-diesel in his truck for years and loves the stuff. Smells like McDonald french fries when it burns.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:19:50 AM EDT
go diesel.. i have a chevy G-30 6.2 van (weighs in at 2 1/2 tons), and i love it. 15.7 MPG, going level. going uphill 15.7 MPG. towing a huge load, 15.7MPG. its great, i work cable and the extra mileage helps a lot when i have a lot of equipment. i havent gotten into the biodiesel routeen yet but i probably will in the summer. think about it, if you play yore cards right you can make yore own fuel and make a profit at the same time. mcdonalds pays to have the grease removed, and you couldbut the ingreedients to make the stuff, with a little extra left over.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:32:03 AM EDT
[url]http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_mike.html[/url]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:47:39 AM EDT
The answer depends on what you use your truck for. Hauling/towing, diesels are fine (handling/acceleration not an issue). Just driving around diesels (even with turbo and intercooler) are still dogs: Ford 7.3L powerstroke 250 HP 460 FT-LB torque GMC/Isuzu diesel 300 HP & 520 FT-LB Dodge/Cummins Diesel 235 HP & 460 FT-LB Have you considered Ford's V10 gas engine? 6.8L V10 gas 310 HP & 425 FT-LB
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 6:22:52 AM EDT
It comes down to a money thing. Usually on trade in you can't recover the inital difference in price, as diesels are very much higher. Add in the fact that diesels are very much noiser and fuel is higher, and from all of the friends I have who have diesels, if you don't work them and don't need the power the fuel savings is not there. The only money most people save is the tax discount on farm fuel for those who farm. Just my .02cents, for what its worth. Really, just buy what makes YOU happy, its your money.....fullclip
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 6:24:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DnPRK: Have you considered Ford's V10 gas engine? 6.8L V10 gas 310 HP & 425 FT-LB
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betcha it only gets 5 MPG. my brother in law has a f-350 bocket truck and thats all he gets. what about my van, i am told by the dealer that it has the same engine as the hummer/military blazer. makes sence as the same company makes em all.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 6:27:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fullclip: It comes down to a money thing. Usually on trade in you can't recover the inital difference in price, as diesels are very much higher. Add in the fact that diesels are very much noiser and fuel is higher, and from all of the friends I have who have diesels, if you don't work them and don't need the power the fuel savings is not there. The only money most people save is the tax discount on farm fuel for those who farm. Just my .02cents, for what its worth. Really, just buy what makes YOU happy, its your money.....fullclip
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ive heard some really loud gas trucks in my time. and while gas was at 1.80 / GAL, diesel was at 1.40 / GAL. the price is more stable than gas.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 6:36:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By the_survivalist:
Originally Posted By fullclip: It comes down to a money thing. Usually on trade in you can't recover the inital difference in price, as diesels are very much higher. Add in the fact that diesels are very much noiser and fuel is higher, and from all of the friends I have who have diesels, if you don't work them and don't need the power the fuel savings is not there. The only money most people save is the tax discount on farm fuel for those who farm. Just my .02cents, for what its worth. Really, just buy what makes YOU happy, its your money.....fullclip
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ive heard some really loud gas trucks in my time. and while gas was at 1.80 / GAL, diesel was at 1.40 / GAL. the price is more stable than gas.
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I'd bet that the gas trucks had glasspacks as mufflers, to be that loud. as for the price, as I see that you are from N.Y, and your gas prices seem to be higher than ours here in Tex. I never saw prices higher than 1.60, and that was only for a few days. We have .95 cent gas now. The diesel price is still at 1.29... fullclip
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 6:56:46 AM EDT
Totally agree with fullclip. Just a thumbnail calculation, but with the low miles that you're driving per year that thing's going to be a rustbucket before you recover that money in fuel savings vs. gasoline. Unless you've got your tinfoil hat held on with a chinstrap, forget about making your own diesel fuel. Good grief, I can make my own soap too but that doesn't mean that I should. If I had a choice, I'd probable buy the diesel. But the reason for that is that unless you have a specific *need* for one over the other, buy it because you *want* it. All the rest is just justification! Have fun. -Observer
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 6:58:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fullclip: I'd bet that the gas trucks had glasspacks as mufflers, to be that loud. as for the price, as I see that you are from N.Y, and your gas prices seem to be higher than ours here in Tex. I never saw prices higher than 1.60, and that was only for a few days. We have .95 cent gas now. The diesel price is still at 1.29... fullclip
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actually, it has more to do withmaintinence, (or lack therof). and i envy you, i pay about 1.25 for diesel right now, but gas is about 1.17. depending on whare you get it. i didn't say it was always cheaper, but that its more stable in price. diesel fluctuated about .40 cents durring the whole opec thing. while gas more than doubbled in my area.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 7:06:08 AM EDT
Diesels are more expensive on purchase, but look at any used diesel with reasonable mileage on it (for a gas), and you will see that you get your money back on resale, at least here in Tx. Keep in mind the higher maintance costs associated with more oil and more expensive filters. If you pull, you will spend a lot less money on fuel than with a gas, even if diesel is more expensive. example: my truck empty 18 mpg (6.2 chevy auto), regardless of how fast you go. My primos powerstroke will do about the same empty, but will drop down to 12 mpg with a 32 foot gooseneck and a bunch of hay on it. his old gas truck (350 chevy) would get 10 mpg empty and 6 mpg with anything behind it. diesels are great for work, and if you sell it at the right mileage (100,000) or less you will get the premium for the engine back out.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 7:40:24 AM EDT
survivalist...The fuel prices and stability of prices, as well as availability, is just one of the cool things about Texas. And about the maintenance, i agree. The proper care is the life of any vehicle. Carbonblack.. i would guess the area in which you trade trucks has an impact. The Ford and Dodge trucks in my area usually only sell for about $1.500 more with diesels in the '98 to '00 year range. The chevys with the older diesels are unwanted, no report on the new ones yet. Merry Christmas all....fullclip
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 7:46:36 AM EDT
one more thing, diesels "NEVER"* break down. whareas a gas engine will eventually "wear out" no matter what. maintinence may be a little more costly (oil, filters,ect) but the engine will last a lifetime. * at least i have never seen a diesel on the side of the road, in a junk yard, on a scrap heap, etc.etc.etc.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 7:54:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By the_survivalist: one more thing, diesels "NEVER"* break down. whareas a gas engine will eventually "wear out" no matter what. maintinence may be a little more costly (oil, filters,ect) but the engine will last a lifetime. * at least i have never seen a diesel on the side of the road, in a junk yard, on a scrap heap, etc.etc.etc.
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Now I will have to respectfully disagree, as the repair shops in my area see the diesels on a regular basis, but not as much as the gas. The "business" that i work for has some of the fords and dodges, and IMOHP, the dodge Cummins is the longer life enging, just the rest of the truck can't stand up. The power stroke is fine with lots of power, and the body will hold up. we haven''t run the Duramax yet, so I can't say... fullclip
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 8:09:43 AM EDT
Hey Merchandy, I have a 2001 Ford f-250 diesel crew cab. We do not pull a trailer or a huge load. But the crew cab is a very heavy vehicle and needs lots of power to get it going. If you get a small block gas engine it will be working very hard and will be doggy and still give you poor fuel mileage. A big block gasser will have the performance but the mileage will suck. I am getting about 17.65 miles to the gallon. People that are chipping these trucks are getting better than 20 mpg and performance is unbelievable. You will have to drive a diesel over 86000 miles to make up the difference in maintaince cost and the initial price of the diesel. If you are planning on getting a crew-cab dually the only way to go is with the diesel. The resale is allot better on a diesel dually and it would be allot easier to sell than a gasser. If you want a good web-site for doing some research on the diesel go to Ford-diesel.com this is a very informative site. If you want a good price on a Ford you need to get on the Ford x-plan. E-mail me and I will tell you how to get on the plan. My wife’s employer has the x-plan as a benefit. We paid 31,000.00 for our crew-cab that listed for over 39,850.00. I have to tell you the diesel is harder and more expensive to maintain but it is fun to drive. The crew-cabs are very comfortable to ride in. I am recovering from a serious back injury and I have trouble getting in and out of most vehicles and can not ride very far in most vehicles. The crew cab is easy to get in and out of and the ride is better than most cars.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 8:41:13 AM EDT
Just bought one of Chevy's new 2001 Duramax Crew Cabs with the Allison transmission. What a truck! Rides great, tows anything, best fuel mileage so far is 18.7 mpg. As for power and acceleration, catch me if you can. This is like no diesel I've driven before. The only beef I have is the standard size filler neck for fuel. I understand there is a retrofit for the fleet fuel necks and that Chevy has added it to the 2002 trucks. And yes, i use it as my drive around town vehicle.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 9:26:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shooter505: People that are chipping these trucks are getting better than 20 mpg and performance is unbelievable.
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I have a 2000 Ford X-cab shortbox diesel with an automatic in it. It has a 73 horsepower chip in it, dual exhaust, K&N Air filter, and a 6" lift with 38" tires and I get 11.5 - 12 MPG with the stock tires I get 15 MPG. It has more power than any factory gas out there. I have yet to change out the down pipe to 3.5". If you gonna stroke it.... PowerStroke it!
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 9:43:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By snowball: Just bought one of Chevy's new 2001 Duramax Crew Cabs with the Allison transmission. What a truck! Rides great, tows anything, best fuel mileage so far is 18.7 mpg. As for power and acceleration, catch me if you can. This is like no diesel I've driven before. The only beef I have is the standard size filler neck for fuel. I understand there is a retrofit for the fleet fuel necks and that Chevy has added it to the 2002 trucks. And yes, i use it as my drive around town vehicle.
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Besides that Harley RoadGlide I lust after (see the 'scoot' thread), this GMC Duramax/Allison in the CrewCab non-dually version is on my can't afford it yet list. Thanks for the information on it, though. Good to know it would be a worthwhile investment.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 9:47:52 AM EDT
I think the diesel will work for me. snowball 18.5mpg and it gits too? Now that's gonna fit the bill,and the 5 speed automatic transmission well what more could I want. I got one more meeting today and then I'm off to the dealership to order this beast. Wish me luck and thanks for the help guys. Andy
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 9:56:11 AM EDT
My 85 K10 with non-turbo 6.2L and 4-speed truck tranny (no OD) averages 18mpg around town and with mixed town/highway driving, and a bit over 20 on long interstate trips. The last time I did any serious towing with it I had a Bobcat 753 w/grapple bucket on a car hauler for a total trailer weight of about 7500lbs, and I got 14mpg on state roads (45mph limit) - that's with 3.08 axle gears. Basically you'll get empty mileages about 40-60% better than a comparably-sized gasser, and double the mileage or better when loaded. I can cruise effortlessly at 75 with it. The truck has either about 165K or 265K on it, and I'm leaning toward the latter figure (previous owner drove 110 miles/day round trip for several years.) It has a small oil pan - 6qts + 2qts in the filter - so oil changes cost about the same as for a gasser. Scheduled maintenance is: oil change every 2500 miles, air filter replaced when necessary (10-15K), fuel filter drained once a week and replaced when necessary (10-15K, probably more often than necessary.) That's it. A diesel like mine, with a rotary injector pump, will hit you with a $650 bill all at once when you have to replace the pump and injectors (about every 125K-150K on average, with some trucks going over 200K on a pump.) An inline pump like a Bosch should really never have to be replaced due to wearing out. The truck isn't quick, it takes me about 0.2 miles to reach 45mph from a dead stop on a slight uphill grade and with winter turbocharging (cold dense dry air) I hit 50+mph at the same spot. WRT fuel prices, whoever mentioned stability has it right. In the past year diesel fuel has ranged from $1.20 to $1.54 at my usual stop, and regular unleaded has ranged from $1.12 to $1.77. I personally don't want to ever own another gasser pickup, to me diesels are just so incredibly superior in every aspect that there's no comparison between the 2. If you're going to buy the truck and trade it in after 3 or 4 years, don't waste your money on the diesel option unless you're going to work the HELL out of it (IMO.) If you're going to keep it till it dies, get the diesel. Even driving "only" 27K per year you'll see an advantage, and with today's galvanized bodies you won't have to worry about it rotting out for at least 10 years.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 10:48:01 AM EDT
For the Chevy options here are some numbers to consider: at 1000 RPM (just off idle) the diesels torque is at or about 300lbs/ft it then peaks at 2000 RPM with just over 500 lbs/ft and by 3000 RPM the torque begins dropping off Now for the 8.1 at 1000 RPM the big blocks torque begins at 400+lbs/ft with a steady increase all the way up to an even 500lbs/ft at 3000 RPM and maintains at least 480lbs/ft through 4000 RPM just for comparisons sake the 5.7 starts out at 300lbs/ft and peaks at 375lbs/ft with roughly the same rate of increase and decrease from 1000-4000 RPM as the 8.1 IMHO the 8.1 appears to be alot more friendly to drive then the "peaky" diesel, kinda like trying to ride a two stroke dirtbike where you need to stay on the "pipe" to take full advantage of the power. also the 8.1 has more HP and torque than the Ford and Dodge V10s (2001)
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 11:04:15 AM EDT
if youplan on keeping it for at least 5 years then go with the diesel thats about how long it will take you to make up the difference for the extrs dough spent on the diesel.under 5 years the gas will be cheaper.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 1:15:29 PM EDT
OH MAN, DONT GET A V10! The most unimpressive engine I have ever been around, both dodge and ford. For as much gas as they use you sure would expect a lot more power. Diesel gets better milage, pulls the shit out of a gas engine any day, and lasts twice as long. Plus, Diesel fumes make me horny! (not saying I want you to make me horny) BTW-using farm fuel to save money is great until you get busted, then you will end up paying more in fines than you could ever save.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 4:51:16 PM EDT
Mechandy, If you can afford the extra hit when you buy the truck, get the diesel. If you tow, drive a great deal, or will every sell this truck the diesel will be superior. The modern computer-controlled diesels in new trucks are quick, get great milage, don't smoke, and are VERY easy to upgrade (more later). My 2001 Dodge/Cummins is fast, reliable, and get 21mpg in a 3/4 ton, 4x4, quadcab, long bed. My neighbor has new Cheby Duramax, don't know the milage yet or the reliability (new model engine = unproven), but you'd better hold on cause it's got power. Last year I test-drove a Phord 3/4, 4x4, QC, long bed. It had plenty of power, but excelerated like a pregnant water buffalo, had the stopping power of Bill Clinton in a room full of interns, and the steering of a city bus with both front tires blown. I put 31k on my Dodge/Cummins this year, averaged 20.6 mpg. By comparison, my friend's Ford (similar set-up to mine) get's 8mpg from the 460 gasser, and my brother-in-law's '98 Chev gets about 14mpg. Diesel engine's already have very heavy duty components that are gernerally made to tighter specs that gassers, but you can dramatically improve them with larger injectors, air intakes, exhausts, and computer chips. You can get the Cummins up to 500hp with a little money! One guy's pushing over 700hp.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 7:32:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Matthew_S: OH MAN, DONT GET A V10! The most unimpressive engine I have ever been around, both dodge and ford. For as much gas as they use you sure would expect a lot more power. Diesel gets better milage, pulls the shit out of a gas engine any day, and lasts twice as long. Plus, Diesel fumes make me horny! (not saying I want you to make me horny) BTW-using farm fuel to save money is great until you get busted, then you will end up paying more in fines than you could ever save.
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Spoken like a true diesel nut. I've got the Ford V-10 4x4 and I get 15 to 15.5 mpg highway. Performance? It'll easily blow the doors off of a stock PSD. One more thing, I didn't pay $4800 to hear a diesel clattering away inside of my truck. Furthermore, I don't want that awful smell in, or around, my house. Yes, you can modify the diesel for more performance, but why void what little factory warranty that you have? SamC
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 9:29:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SamC: I don't want that awful smell in, or around, my house.
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Oh but everyone loves the smell of gas in, or around, their house.
Yes, you can modify the diesel for more performance, but why void what little factory warranty that you have? SamC
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Magnuson Moss warranty act
Link Posted: 12/25/2001 5:24:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SamC: Spoken like a true diesel nut. I've got the Ford V-10 4x4 and I get 15 to 15.5 mpg highway. Performance? It'll easily blow the doors off of a stock PSD.SamC
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You must have gotten a good one, because the people I know who have V10s (my brother has a Ram 2500 w/V10) say they feel somewhat weak for their size and fuel "economy." All their power's at the top end. Performance? The only time you're going to blow the doors off a PSD is when both of you are empty. Hook up a heavy load and he'll leave you in the dust and still get twice the mileage doing so. Plus, I've never heard of a chip causing an engine's warranty to be voided, especially with a diesel because both the PSD and Cummins ISB are seriously detuned for the light-truck market. A chip only brings them back to their intended design power levels.
Link Posted: 12/25/2001 7:55:02 PM EDT
1GUNRUNNER, the M-M warranty act applies to oil filters, air filters, brake pads, etc. This was done to prevent the manufacturers from requiring a person to buy only GM filters, etc. for a GM car, and so on. It DOES NOT apply to chips that modify the performance of a vehicle. Ford, DC, and GM are cracking down on this type of stuff. NH2112, if you haven't heard of a manufacturer voiding a warranty for this, all that you need to do is look around. It happens with great regularity. I've been told by the Ford/D-C dealer here that they WILL VOID the warranty for a chip/computer modification. It makes for a very expensive gamble on the owners part. You also must realize that the chip that affects performance also puts more stress on the transmission and the rest of the drivetrain. The D-C auto transmissions are especially weak, this increased stress usually causes an expensive failure. The D-C 8.0L V-10 is a notorious gas hog, that is a proven fact. The Ford 6.8L V-10 is a modern SOHC design and more fuel efficient. I don't buy the mileage guesstimates of the diesel either. I've got a friend with a PSD and he does not get double the mileage of my V-10. Furthermore, there are more Ford Super Duty owners that have the same experiences that I do, towing and empty. If you want a diesel, get it. Just don't think that it's the only viable option out there. SamC
Link Posted: 12/26/2001 10:06:36 AM EDT
SamC, I certainly didn't intend to come across as saying that my opinion was the only viable option. I try to specify whether something I say is fact or opinion, but I'm not always successful. My point about warranties not often being voided due to chips comes from knowing quite a few people who've brought chipped cars and trucks in for repair. The dealership's computer will know if the car is chipped, and most dealers will give you the benefit of the doubt (chip, but no obvious abuse or misuse = warranty OK.) Obviously, not all of them will do this. The Dodge 47RE auto trans problems tend to only pop up when the vehicle has been towing with the trans in OD, but that's been the weak point of every auto trans since the 700R4 cam out in the early 80s (even some manual trannies aren't supposed to tow in OD.) +/-30% lower engine RPM in OD translates into +/-30% lower impeller RPM, +/-30% lower pump RPM (the converter's locked in OD) and therefore +/-30% less fluid flow for lube and cooling and less hydraulic pressure to hold pistons or servos in place. Regarding diesels smoking, this is only a concern at initial startup. My 1960s technology diesel engine only shows visible smoke for 10-15 seconds after startup, and that's with either 165K or 265K miles on it. Modern electronically-injected engines won't even smoke that long, with the computer's ability to advance injection timing and control the amount of fuel injected to achive smokeless startups. Mileage? I have my own experiences with both gas and diesel engines to go by, plus what friends and acquaintances tell me. My 1960s technology diesel engine with either 165K or 265K miles on it gets 18mph combined city/highway, 20-21 interstate, 16-17 with 1500lbs in the bed, and 14 towing 7500lbs. This is without an overdrive tranny and the engine running around 3000rpm (@75mph), with 3.08 gears and 31" tires. Mine makes its best mileage around 1800rpm, and if I could keep it there 25+mpg wouldn't be farfetched. I don't know many people with smaller, modern, EFI gas V8 engines who get empty mileages any better than my "loaded bed" mileage, even with their OD trannies, and most of them get empty mileage somewhere around my "trailering" mileage. Put a similar load behind them and they just about double their fuel consumption. A V10 or big block V8 may get better loaded mileage due to the fact that it's not working as hard as a small block, but it still won't come close to what mine gets with the same load, or to what an ISB, PSD, or Duramax will with the same load. That's physics, not opinion. My disadvantages? No turbo therefore power falls off on hills and with heavy loads, interior noise (mostly due to the loud truck tranny) and black smoke like a choo-choo train when under a heavy load - a turbo cures that, since black smoke is nothing but partially burned fuel that didn't have enough air to completely combust.
Link Posted: 12/26/2001 8:25:00 PM EDT
NH2112, in the case of chipped vehicles, the biggest reason for the transmission failures isn't the cooling, although it can contribute to the failures. After all, heat is a killer on ANY auto trans. It's the fact that the transmissions are built for X ft/lbs of torque input to them, and the input levels are exceeded. The hot-rodding (chips, etc.) usually puts the torque input way over the designed rated input and the transmissions fail. Ford has redsigned their auto for 2003 to accomodate the G2 PSD and its increased HP and torque. I don't follow D-C as closely, but GMs Allison auto is also designed for greater HP and torque. I cannot compare my V-10 mileage to your 1960s technology diesel, since I'm quite sure that my truck is quite a bit larger and heavier than your truck. All of the diesels smoke, it's the nature of the beast. The more it's played with, the more smoke it'll produce, been there, done that. A turbo won't cure the smoke either. I've also had a diesel or two in my lifetime. :) Anyway, enjoy your diesel. SamC
Link Posted: 12/26/2001 9:35:12 PM EDT
Just wanted to post an update on my truck buying. For the life of me I just can't never seem to get the exact ride I want when I buy new. My last chevy was only available in a 6' bed due to some flood in the mid west that sucked up most of the available trucks. My GMC burb...I wanted white and the wife liked the black.Several of the earlier rides were based on not what I wanted but what I could afford (or thought, due to not knowing how to buy a car). Any way to get the truck I wanted four places said that they couldn't find a dealer who would trade inventory and it would take 3 months to order the one I wanted(I actually went to seven dealerships). I ended up with a 8.1 liter V8 LS Chevy Crew Cab Dually with the 5 speed automatic and it's loaded to the gills with options. The cost was $32,500. Other than the lack of a Diesel motor I am very pleased with it. Andy
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