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Posted: 12/22/2001 3:29:40 AM EDT
I found two old articles on this subject, one a paper from the Cato Institute, and another from the Washington Post covering a study on SWAT teams. Here's a scary quote about SWAT: "We're into saturation patrols in hot spots. We do a lot of our work with the SWAT unit because we have bigger guns. We send out two, two-to-four- men cars, we look for [b]minor violations[/b] and do jump-outs, either on people on the street or automobiles. After we jump-out the second car provides periphery cover with an [b]ostentatious display of weaponry[/b]. We're sending a clear message: [b]if the shootings don't stop, we'll shoot someone[/b]." These are the guys that are supposed to protect us? Doesn't sound like it to me! And another "A Midwestern community with a population of 75,000 sends out patrols dressed in tactical uniform in a military personnel carrier. The armored vehicle, according to the SWAT commander, stops "suspicious vehicles and people. [b]We stop anything that moves[/b]. We'll sometimes even [b]surround suspicious homes and bring out the MP5s (machine gun pistols)[/b]." Scary! Here are the links: both of the quotes came from this Cato paper: [url]http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/The_Law/paramilitarism_in_police2.htm[/url] Here's the Post article: [url]http://www.refuseandresist.org/big_brother/062297swat.html[/url]
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 4:56:36 AM EDT
We're here to help[rolleyes]..... I had to say it!
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 5:15:42 AM EDT
This AIN'T your daddy's U.S.A.! "Life, Liberty, the Pursuit of Happiness" if your not a pessimist of the current times and condition of America, me thinks your not payin attention! Lance "Republic. I like the sound of the word -- means people can live free, talk free, go or come, buy or sell, be drunk or sober, however they choose. Some words give you a feeling. Republic is one of those words that makes me tight in the throat--the same tightness a man gets when his baby takes his first step or his first baby shaves or makes his first sound like a man. Some words can give you a feeling that make your heart warm. Republic is one of those words." --John Wayne in "The Alamo"
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 5:54:44 AM EDT
It's basically an end run around the Posse Comitatus Act. Eventually every LEO will be dressed in blue or black BDUs (it's cheaper and easier to maintain, so one LEO told a local selectmen's meeting a while back, when the PD of a neighboring town wanted to go to all-military style uniforms) carry an AR or MP-5 in the guise of "stopping terrorists" and they will operate or be able to operate in larger formations that resemble... you guessed it- armies! let's see: soon we will need a national ID (internal passport). Soon we will have a national domestic military-style police force (Interior Ministry troops). What's next? What will be the diff. between us and the former USSR? What will be the eventual difference between the regular army and the police? Answer: the color of the uniforms. ..................... "The Regulars are out!" -what Paul Revere REALLY said.... Every successful revolution puts on in time the robes of the tyrant it has deposed. -BARBARA TUCHMAN
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 7:06:52 AM EDT
"To Serve and Protect."
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 7:12:25 AM EDT
Yesterday on the radio, the host was interviewing the sheriff in our town he described how he had formed his men into "WolfPacks" and they would cruise the area looking for anything amiss, if anyone found anything suspicous, they would all attack the suspicous activity. MP5's, and all. Of course, in the near future, they will be readily recognizable and hence, a much bigger target for the disgruntled sheep who are tired of being seperated from the herd and eaten. 10 wolves have lots to be afraid from 75k annoyed sheep.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 7:13:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 8:21:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 8:31:45 AM EDT
When i was in highschool my friend hit an empty plastic trash can and knocked it over. He was going about 10 MPH. An under cover car happened to see it. About a mile later he was pulled over and surronded by 8 copcars. He and his passangers were taken out at gunpoint and searched. His car was impounded and he got a Reckless driving ticket. The city i grew up in was ranked The safest city to live in in the U.S. two years in a row. That day i learned why.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 8:39:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Rancid: This AIN'T your daddy's U.S.A.! And who better than one who is "Rancid" to state the truth ! Well said.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 10:28:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo: Yesterday on the radio, the host was interviewing the sheriff in our town he described how he had formed his men into "WolfPacks" and they would cruise the area looking for anything amiss, if anyone found anything suspicous, they would all attack the suspicous activity. MP5's, and all. Of course, in the near future, they will be readily recognizable and hence, a much bigger target for the disgruntled sheep who are tired of being seperated from the herd and eaten. 10 wolves have lots to be afraid from 75k annoyed sheep.
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Not if the sheep have been disarmed first.... Why must history repeat itself again and again?
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 11:18:39 AM EDT
Yes, it is scary... but if your are going to use a second hand qoute, use the whole thing. "The Fresno SWAT unit, for example, sends its 40-person team, with full military dress and gear, into the inner city "war zone" to deal with problems of drugs, gangs, and crime. One survey respondent described his department's use of SWAT teams in the following way: "We're into saturation patrols in hot spots. We do a lot of our work with the SWAT unit because we have bigger guns. We send out two, two-to-four- men cars, we look for minor violations and do jump-outs, either on people on the street or automobiles. After we jump-out the second car provides periphery cover with an ostentatious display of weaponry. We're sending a clear message: if the shootings don't stop, we'll shoot someone." 40 The issue here was gang and narcotics crime (which is associated with violence). No one (including myself) wants to have their civil liberties taken away by anyone. A lot of times, it seems that many of the people on this forum think that every police action is planned to strip away their rights. I dont necessarily agree. Police action is always a reaction to what has already happened. continued...
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 11:20:44 AM EDT
continued... consider this, how much liberty do you think the law abiding citizen feels when he/she cant come out of their home because their street is occuppied by heavily armed gangsters and thugs that rule the neighborhood through intimidation and violence? Who is going to help them? Will it be the members of this board? After all, most of us here are heavily armed, right? A lot of people here talk about SHTF. Well the S*** does hit the fan almost every day in America. Innocent citizens are the ones that get splattered and the Police, Firefighters and EMS personnel are the ones that clean it up. We need to asses the blame for the condition of America on the people (read criminals and morally corrupt politicians)who cause the crime and negative social enviorments and stop the knee jerk reaction against the police for doing their jobs. Although it is almost cliche now... one only has to think back to the LAPD encounter with the two armed bank robbers of the North Hollywood shootout (and several many more less publicized similar events) to realize that the Police need to armed and trained to respond to the ever increasing violent tendancies of criminals in this country. Dont be so quick to criticize the Police being well armed and trained when almost everyone here thinks the same is acceptable for them. Just my .02
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 11:27:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2001 11:34:03 AM EDT by Maynard]
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 11:36:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2001 11:34:41 AM EDT by Maynard]
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 11:41:05 AM EDT
And on the other hand, we're seeing the military being turned into a police force (been to the airport lately?). Jrod, it's funny how we don't have that problem in my neighborhood. The day we have heavily armed gangsters and thugs on my block will be the day we have dead, formerly armed gangsters and thugs on my block - with or without the assistance of the local police force. You sound like someone who thinks the solution to being shot at is to dial 911. I have no problem with the police being relatively well armed, but police aren't the solution to crime, armed citizens are.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 11:51:38 AM EDT
Very well said jrod. [:)]
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 1:03:25 PM EDT
Maynard, No knock raids, as you call them, are generally the execution of search or arrest warrants, which have to be signed by a judge in good standing. Those circumstances arise from the investigation of a crime and probable cause to belive that evidence can be secured or an arrest can be made.... that is what it is in reaction to. Aside from "hot pursuit" situations and immediated defense of life, it is difficult to enter a person's home (as it should be - 4th Ammendment protection) As far as Columbine goes, I wasn't there and I doubt that you were... Monday morning quarterbacks are always the ones that would have done it better. it was a bad situation all the way around and I dont know how it could have been done better. Maelcum, I dont think the best solution is to call 911. I think that an armed law abiding citizen, just like a police officer, has the right to use deadly force in immediate defense of life...But let me ask you this, whould you resort to villgilantism to protect your neighborhood? Very few people do. Crime and conditions that foster crime are like a cancer. They start off undetected and slowly build until it is a serious health problem. No one calls a doctor a buthcer for using high tech gear to remove a tumor and then do follow up treatments with radiation.... but Police are criticized for being too aggressive & militaristic if they are proactive & are better equiped and criticized for being "cowards" if they aren't.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 1:10:19 PM EDT
This topic again? [sleep]
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 1:18:58 PM EDT
Anyone who does not support the right of the police to earn a living and be able to go home safely to their families at night are cop haters. Civilians should let the trained professionals do the job of protecting the public.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 2:07:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 3:55:33 PM EDT
I am all for law and order, BUT...I am even more for our freedom. Did anybody see the show on A&E or Discovery one, that had the LA gang task force? These guys drive in gang active areas, and when they see a face they dont recognize near other gang members they jump out, throw dude against a wall and take a polaroid of him. They then interview the guy asking him what he is doing here, whats his name, things like that. Now I detest gang violence, but damn, this is over the top. I am sure these cops feel they are doing the right thing, and it might even be working well, but where do we say that our safety is worth our civil liberties? Who's next? NRA and local sportsmen clubs? This is so much in lines with the people spewing on and on about "we may have to give up some of our civil liberties to ensure safety". Why dont we just run a chain down the 747's and everyone can be shackled to it untill they reach their destination. I would rather give up percieved safety for my freedom anyday. I will provide my own safety thank you.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 4:26:16 PM EDT
"Order" is a word that makes tyrants drool. It is the generator of their machine - as well as its product. Order is the antithesis of true peace. In the name of order, governments can commit all the democide they want - and justify it any way they want - and normal people will cheer them for it. Order is what the Soviets wanted. Order is what the Nazis wanted. Order is what the UN and the EU want. Order is what the ATF wants. Order is synonymous with murder. Those who stand against us and those who stand above us are one and the same. Those who say they're fighting terrorism yet use terror against the innocent are the same as the terrorists themselves. NO! They're worse. At least the terrorists are honest about what they do (well, some of them). Regardless of the depressing condition of the world in our miserable age, I still believe freedom is worth fighting for. It's just too bad that the powers that be had to redefine freedom so they could screw with the peoples' chains of communication. Communication is the key to the instigation of revolution. If the State can prevent various factions of people from communicating - especially about an elemental subject like freedom - then they can divide and conquer. They pit young against old, rich against poor, strong against weak. They feed off peoples' lack of understanding. Collectivism is their brand of solidarity. To them, peace is the absense of opposition. Stand and RISE!
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 7:22:21 PM EDT
The only issue with the "Militarization of Police" that I've seen is that sometimes the police forget that they aren't the military and that they're civilians, just like me. Other than that... these guys are just guys like everyone else. Some are smart. Some are stupid. Some have John Wayne fantasies. Some have Mall Ninja fantasies. However, no matter which type the local guy on the beat will be... if my ass gets in a jam, I prefer him to be there than not be there, even if he doesn't understand why I say, "Hey Officer Tackleberry!"
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 7:58:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: Here's a scary quote about SWAT: "We're into saturation patrols in hot spots.......We're sending a clear message: [b]if the shootings don't stop, we'll shoot someone[/b]."
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You obviously don't live in the 'hood. Saturation patrols in hot spots are not in Suburbia. They are in the crack house districts where they really DO need to be. When someone lives in neighborhood where machine gun fire and helicopters over head is a normal part of the background noise they don't notice a few extra SWAT MP-5's. You're damn right SWAT should shoot at thugs shooting at them!
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 12:11:05 PM EDT
SWAT teams have their purpose and are definetly needed in the right circumstances. Those of you who cry about the police being well armed don't realize the hardware that thugs in gangs and drug dealers carry. If you'd prefer that police be shot up by crack heads then you aren't in the right mindset.
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 1:32:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Carl_Marks: SWAT teams have their purpose and are definetly needed in the right circumstances. Those of you who cry about the police being well armed don't realize the hardware that thugs in gangs and drug dealers carry. If you'd prefer that police be shot up by crack heads then you aren't in the right mindset.
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That is why the police are getting M60's and 40mm grenade launchers. You civilians better get it into your heads that a few minor incidents of collateral damage is a very small price to pay for the safety of the underappreciated officers who's only duty is to protect you each and every day.
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 1:51:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 4:13:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: That is why the police are getting M60's and 40mm grenade launchers. You civilians better get it into your heads that a few minor incidents of collateral damage is a very small price to pay for the safety of the underappreciated officers who's only duty is to protect you each and every day.
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Or is it because they use less-lethal ammo and teargas rounds in the 40mm grenade launchers? It's not like the M-16 series of weapons or the M-203/M-79 aren't tested to be reliable and work properly.
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 5:04:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 5:21:18 PM EDT
Yawn. Not this again. The 40mm round is THE round for less-lethal and gas rounds. 37mm and 12 gauge are considered "legacy" rounds that LE will use until the next generation of less-lethal technology is available. 40mm sponge and beanbag rounds actually cause less blunt force trauma than 12 gauge rounds, and are more accurate at greater distances. While many, many agencies are buying or already have 40mm launchers, I have yet to hear of any agency in this country that uses or plans on using HE, HEDP or any other 40mm round that is designed to be lethal. So what exactly is the problem with law enforcement agencies buying 40mm launchers? How is the adoption of advanced less-lethal technology proof of "militarization?"
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 10:41:10 PM EDT
Hey, I am all for the police being able to use whatever weapons that will get them home safely to their families at night. I just wish the civilians would quit crying about collateral damage.
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 11:43:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio:
Originally Posted By Carl_Marks: SWAT teams have their purpose and are definetly needed in the right circumstances. Those of you who cry about the police being well armed don't realize the hardware that thugs in gangs and drug dealers carry. If you'd prefer that police be shot up by crack heads then you aren't in the right mindset.
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That is why the police are getting M60's and 40mm grenade launchers. You civilians better get it into your heads that a few minor incidents of collateral damage is a very small price to pay for the safety of the underappreciated officers who's only duty is to protect you each and every day.
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Imbroglio Didn't I see you at "Crossroads of the West" selling airsoft bb guns? You enjoy cult status on this board? Wow! You are a "No Mind"! One person lost for an unjust act is a tragedy! Especially in the course of the promotion of tyranny!
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 4:05:10 AM EDT
I agree, Natez: YAWN! This topic gets so old. Let me ask a question, how many of you on this thread who believe that the police are becoming militarized, have actually been one or spent any lenth of time talking with one and getting to know them? The one question that gets asked but none of you all seem to be able to answer is: how do we deal with our crime problem? How do we limit the liability factor? How do we deal with EDP's who don't necessarily need to be killed in order to help them with their problems? How do we deal with our violent gangs who do become well armed? How do we deal with crime ridden neighborhoods that are ruled and run by criminals? You all bitch and moan but when solutions are needed, you have no answer or better yet no clue. When you do offer solutions they are usually vague and or impractical? Ever had to go up against a gang or a person who has better arms than you? When you got someone running around a neighborhood shooting it up or doing armed robberies with an SKS, what is the appropriate respone by the LEO's? Yes, granted there are agencies who do take this a little far but I work in HOuston and most of the guys and gals I work with are hard working cops, just wanting to make a buck and go home. For the most part, say 95% of all police agencies are looking for ways to deal with the crime and save the tax payer some money. Instead of sitting (hiding) behind your keyboard and screen, why not do something to help the situation or become more famaliar with it? Like become a police officer, do a four year study and see if you militariZation ideas are true? Yawn......... This topis is so old. I'm 10-7 / 10-42 / OD - Merry Christmas, everyone, yes including you who are ranting and raving.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:12:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 10:03:57 AM EDT
I'd pay big bucks for a "Columbine SWAT" t-shirt. The graphics could be really cool, like a bunch of cops with all the latest battlegear standing around drinking coffee and eating donuts. or, they could be cowering outside doorways in puddles of their own urine?
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 11:39:30 AM EDT
"I'd pay big bucks for a "Columbine SWAT" t-shirt. The graphics could be really cool, like a bunch of cops with all the latest battlegear standing around drinking coffee and eating donuts. or, they could be cowering outside doorways in puddles of their own urine?" SJSAMPLE Have anyone of you guys actually heard or talked with any of the SWAT officers who were at Columbine? Probably not, your idioticy is showing through. SJSAMPLE, I believe you might just be a [:K] or just plain flat out obtuse! Are you aware there were several officers who violated direct orders, not to go in? Are you aware that the tactics that they employed, once allowed to deploy, were right on with how they had be trained? No one in police history, had ever been faced with such a magnatude of a situation. They were trained, no differant that most Tactical guys floating around in here. The only differance is, that was then and this is now. Most departments are now trained in how to deal with active shooters and homicide in progress situations, then it was not fathomed that something like that would take place. The problem with Columbine was the management. You forget or chose to pull the information you want to make your bullshit opinons and don't consider all the information. The way the supervisors handled the situation was the problem not the individual line and tactical officers. Instead of talking out your arse, why not try to become better informed. You fellers are truly showing your limited intelligence especially when you start talking about a lack of action, eating donuts and peeing in puddles. Get a life and get out and do something instead of hiding behind your computer. I think SGB is right when he so wisely signs: If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 12:08:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pakrat: I think SGB is right when he so wisely signs: If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
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How about "Civilians should be like children, seen but not heard"
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 12:22:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 12:39:44 PM EDT
1) Imbrolio - with as much good that you may do as a Cop (I assume that you are one) you destroy your credibility by being as onesided as many of the others on this board with opposite opinions. 2) Pakrat - You're alright in my book brother. Stay safe. 3) Maynard - In response to your previous post which addressed me, I am not afraid to cross the Blue Line... I am of the Thin Blue Line, which you obviously dont understand. And with your gripes about 3:00 AM raids and your anthem to legalize drugs, it is obvious which side of the Blue Line you stand on. "Decent Citizens sleep safely in their beds at night because brave men stand ready to do violence on their behalf" Jrod
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 12:44:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 12:52:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 1:50:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: Civilians should let the trained professionals do the job of protecting the public.
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I couldn't agree more. I feel so much safer since the mayor assigned Officer Friendly to be my personal 'trained professional'. He stands in front of me everywhere I go, every second of every day. He even throws himself in front of shopping carts if they get too close to my car. Too bad there aren't enough 'trained professionals' to allow everyone to have their own. Guess some of you will have to take care of yourselves.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 2:35:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2001 2:30:06 PM EDT by timh70]
It seems to me that most cops are trying to do their job in the best way possible, but I did have a bad incident with a cop back when I was 19 (12 years ago) that really tainted my view of cops. THis cop was 6' 6 and about 220, and I was 6 foot 145. And he got away with brutality and excessive use of force because he felt "threatened' because of a mix up in the registration of my car, which I would not let him tow. First, he pulled me over OUT of his jurdistrtiction, then wanted to get his jollies being tough. I happened to meet a few other "long hairs" who had had run in's with this a-hole when he worked NarcUC. And everyone said the same thing. He was on a power trip. After I got home, my father noticed the bruised on my arms and wrists, an took me to the hospital. When we got there, the doctor also found bruises on my back and neck. Not a couple of small ones. The one on my right arm almost went all the way around my bicep and tricep and was as wide as the cops hand. The bruise on my wrists were from the cuffs being tightened to my bones. the bruises on my back and legs were from his knees and a "few ' punches, and the bruise on my neck was from where he yanked me around. After he had me cuffed, he had me facing the car, and said "If yo uso much as move, I'll put your head through that window". Hmm.. maybe some cop bashing is in order until the police can clean out their ranks. edited to add: he didn't even try to get me for possession of alcohol, which I did have in my trunk, and which he saw. He just wanted to impound my car for a registration issue, which I tried to explain to him. [smoke]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 4:22:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2001 4:15:03 PM EDT by Rainier]
I agree with Maynard in that drugs are the cause of most crime in this country. There is a lot of money to be made in the drug trade. As long as there is money to be made in the drug trade, there will be dealers and they will kill each other, and the police who try to stem the drug trade. As far as the militarization of the police force, have you seen the s**t they're up against? Several years ago the police caught a smuggler in my area who had over 40 weapons,including AK's and MG-42's, full-auto, the real deal. He could have sold them to any dealer on the street. Thats why cops need armor guns and training that normally is reserved for the military.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:04:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2001 4:58:53 PM EDT by LE6920]
Originally Posted By Maynard: I have no illusions that most LEOs would ever accept a reduction in power or armament, I think the "Us vs. Them" mentality is so deeply ingrained that no major department would ever scale back on weapons or policy.
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Why would I vote for a reduction in armament as you state. Hell, I'm all for having all the tools to do the job. Are you interested in serving a murder warrant on a known armed individual with only a .38spl? Or would you rather have the tools to do the job safely? It's funny but I'm not usually fingered as LE when at the range until people come over to see the toys. I'll let anyone shoot who is responsible and will talk guns with all who care. But, there are some who see a badge or LE gun and give you a dirty look and run off. Little do they know I could give a rats ass about looking at their ARs serial# or if that bayo lug is a post ban violation. People either like LEOs or they HATE them, pure and simple. I'm not sure why, guess there are many reasons. I have seen some pretty scary firearms safety violations from both "civilians" and LEOs alike. It all depends on your interest in the field. Next time you see a LEO at the range try talking to him/her. Most will talk and you'll see the majority of us are really ok. If the guy acts like a prick, it could be a front or he could be a prick. Bottom line, Do I carry LEO only guns,mags,tools on the job? You better belive it. DO I think ANYONE without a felony conviction or loony toon, should be able to have the same stuff, YES. Do I think it is my right to go in after some piss-head who is going to try and kill me armed with a SMG or M4, you bet. If you think I should use a revolver or more PC type tools, [-!-!-] I'm for the gun rights of all, except criminals. LEO, joe blow, women, minorities, etc. I feel a well trained properly CCW civilian is an asset to me on the street. There will always be bashers who hide behind their screen and 2nd guess everything. We like to refer to those as "chickenshits". When I get respect, I give respect, it's that simple. Come off as an a-hole and don't be surprised at the reslut. Edited to add "MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!!" [beer]
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:23:48 PM EDT
Hey Maynard, Since, in your opinion, cops are just civilians like everyone else, and you think that cops should be less armed... Does that apply to the rest of civilians too? Should we then de-militarize all civilians and take away their military style weapons? If you advocate 2nd Ammendment and freedoms for non LEO citizens then you contradicted yourself and your argument is flawed. Like someone else posted, and as I posted previously, law abiding citizens should have the right to be armed and defend themselves. I also suspect, as you stated earlier, that you would defend yourself and call the police to clean up the mess... but for some of us who are more altruistic, we go out of our way to defend those that cannot defend themselves. We have the same rights as you do. Don't take it out on us because we opt to be as prepared as possible for the more likely event of a gun battle as a LEO than as a citizen protecting his/her home.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 5:59:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 7:34:21 PM EDT
Ha! Imbroglio is just trying to be funny. He's right, I posted that Cato article on this board when it came out last year. We really hashed this out back then. Now I can see that things have worsened in some ways and improved in others. Many more cops are carrying AR-15s and MP5s in their cars instead of (or in addition to) shotguns. However, I also think that the atrocities committed by police are causing a stir in some locales. Let's face it, the SWAT propaganda started with the tv show and if it wasn't due to "mission creep" involving drug prohibition, we wouldn't really be getting so pissed off. Law enforcement is a burgeoning industry. As long as it remains so, our liberties will always be in jeopardy. Frankly, I think one more well organized terrorist attack is going to throw our nation into chaos. A nuclear bomb in one city would be enough. Sept. 11 was almost enough and that was a joke. I now clearly understand a few things: 1) How easily the German people came to support fascism, racism, and scapegoating 2) How easily the Jews came to believe that the trains were taking them to safety and not certain death 3) Being armed will not slow or stop the process, in fact, it's nearly useless until they come to get *you*. Then you will die. But at least you'll die with dignity and go down fighting. Better than all the sheep who just got on the train (or plane).
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 7:42:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 9:26:57 PM EDT
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