I would pip for Bruce myself but Dan Insanto is the martial arts GOD these days.

Nekkid80, you almost got my wife $250000.
I almost died laughing. STILL having chest pains!!!

I would say that Bruce is the best. He has left a legacy.
Steven Segal is good too.
VanDam SUCKS.

[smoke]

I 100% agree with you, but that is also the basis for JKD training, cover all ranges of fighting to take a person out of their game into yours.

100% about Mixed Martial Arts competitions.  The saying "The worst fighter can beat the best fighter on any given day," come to mind.

The biggest trend in Matial Arts is cross training.

Martial Arts have always been as you explained. There are no "masters" There are heads of styles. It was the Westerners that started this notion. There are no belts. The westerners started this. A martial artist nows all aspects of fighting including weaponry. Yes a martial artist do not care about money it is about the art. Sounds to me that what you have come across are posers. Not martial artist. A martial artist should know about healing as well as killing.

By your comments I feel you have a mis understanding, or rather a westerners understanding of martial arts. Martials Arts is not about fighting. Martial Arts is philosiphy, physical fitness, meditation and to some a religion. Being able to fight is a side benefit. Sure there are arts made for fighting. THEY ARE CALLED FIGHTING ARTS and not MARTIAL ARTS.

A lot of people under estimate Tai Chi Chuan, however, I doubt they have actually seen one of this guys fight. Yes Tai Chi Chuan can grapple. Bet you guys do not know that do you. Most serious Martial Artist consider Tai Chi Chuan, or other art like it (IE Pakua, Hsing I..) to be the most rounded art. Most westerner discount this art cause the concept is to hard to understand, or they do not want to take the time and understand. [i]"Ugh me want to fight" "Ugh me want to bash head, me no want to learn how to move body" "Ugh me big dumb ox, me like wrestle and bash head in"[/i]

[b]You guys need to learn the difference between MARTIAL ARTS and FIGHTING ARTS.[/b]

As far as magic death touch. Chi Gung is still practiced and given the right pratitioner is can inflict serious pain. I was once lightly slapped by my Sil Lum instructor, yes slapped. Much like you would slap a buddy in the back. And it knocked the wind out of and I nearly blacked out. Of course he has been pratcing for 40yrs. Most so called martial artist, do not want to spend 40yrs breathing in and out. Nooooo that just BS it will never work. These are for crazy witch doctors. "Ugh me wrestle instead, me bash heads, more better" "Me no learn long time, too much commitment." "ugh me bash head"[/i]

Incorrect.  Jigoro Kano laid the foundation for kyu/dan ranking with the mudansha and yudansha.  Ginchin Funakoshi picked up the ball and ran with it.

Westerners [b]did[/b] come up with the all the rainbow colors.  The practice of colored belts was begun, however, by the very Japanese Mikonosuke Kaiwashi.



This is new age bulls**t rationalization about the martial arts that has been present for little less than a century and a half.  "Martial arts" was very much about killing or disabling the other guy before he killed you.  When guns come along and your sword is no longer your primary weapon of war, then you can get all fancy-dancy about it.  Prior to that, it's serious business undertaken by people whose lives depend upon their proficiency.

You can argue definitionally about whether or not your intent violates the "art" aspect of it, and I can agree partially.  However, at its base root... boxing, wrestling, western fencing, kenjutsu, kung-fu, pistol-shooting, marksmaship, and flying a warplane are all martial arts.



That is as Western a view as you can get.

Easterners have no inherent legitimacy in understanding martial arts or pursuing martial ways.  We all come from cultures with fighting backgrounds of some sort.  If our ancestors weren't good at it, we wouldn't have survived to yap about it.

Besides, if you think Westerners never got philosophical or artistic about fighting, go pick up and read an old fencing manual.

vandamn,segal,and norris were on tv together on talk host show. he asked them who was the best they all chicken-eyed each other and then chuck told them looking into there eyes i'm the only two time world champion here!  nuff said   bruce was the man..

A hierchy yes not this color belt bullshit. Agreed.



Martial Arts has not been about killing. In its root. It was designed to strengthen the Monks bodies. It was founded that due to prolonged meditation their bodies became weak. Therefore physical movement was devised. Originally they emulated animal movements. (Tigers way of stretching and agility, the Cranes balance, the quickness of the Snake...etc.) Incoporated it into their meditation. Shaolin Monks did not originally use it for fighting. Then it was founded that through these execises they were also able to defend themselves. Hence the fight aspects came about. It was still down played. Through the many wars China had, fighting arts and martial arts (study of medicine, and human body) were seperated. Martial Arts in the truist form is not about fighting. It is the study of the human body.




Yes there is a need to defend oneself, I do not argue that. What I argue is that people blur the lines between true martial arts and fighting. Fighting is only one aspect of martial arts.

Check out  www.mixedmartialarts.com

To answer the original question: [b]BEAVIS[/b], master of the dreaded nad kick!

Yes, that is what Hatsumi Sensei says about the topic as well. The local Bujinkan dojo visits the rifle range at least 5-6 times a year. We also do wilderness retreats and camps. We have hosted a multiplicity of high-ranking instructors from other schools to teach and demonstrate their styles. Ninpo taijutsu is indeed the original 'mixed art' as it has borrowed from ancient to modern styles.

Remember Bruce Lee as KATO in The Green Hornet?

Now THAT was  COOL

Another vote for Bruce Lee. . .

Coming from OLD school Kajukenbo I agree with your list.  As a blue belt in '73, I was fortunate enough to be in a demo with Sifu Al Dacasos where he did an 8 man multiple attack.  None of this standing around in a circle waiting for a signal to go in, we all had weapons of our choosing and we all attacked at once, completely spontaneously.  To this day I still don't remember exactly what happened to me after I charged in at him swinging a chain.  My plan was to go for his legs while he was "occupied" with two other attackers.  I got to within range and the next thing I knew I was horizontal 3 feet off the floor, on my back, got hit about 20 times before I hit the floor.  We continued to attack and he just kept laying us out, nobody touched him........

Bruce Lee, is not so great for his fighting "style" aka Jeet Kune Do (the intercepting fist), but rather for the his philosophies on fighting. He was the first to truly research other styles and integrate the best of what they offered and throw away the crap that was useless and practice, practice, practice. His amazing skill was simply the byproduct of this philosophy. He actually would more often fight/spar using western style boxing moves integrated with his Kung Fu in-between.

Bruce had "thousands" of personnaly books both old and new (at the time) on both health and fighting from all over the world. He actually researched and made notes in every single one of them with his meticulous weaning out of good versus crap. I have seen just a few of them, but he indeed constantly practiced what he preached.

Much of what made Bruce Lee so great was his willingness to teach "anybody" and not hoard fighting "secrets" to a select few. Didn't matter what race they were, style's they knew, whatever. He just wanted to teach anybody who wanted to learn and do it in earnest.

The movies did not really show what he was capable of. What "should" have been actual shining work movie was the Game of Death. Yes, I hear everyone saying "yuck" it sucked, and half the movie was not actually Bruce as he died. Well, the "original" film cuts were found in Asia and was compiled into how it was "meant" to be shown documentary. IT WAS KICKASS!

I got to see the original prescreening and it was absolutely different from the movie version. Bruce wanted to this movie to show how fighting "forms" or "style" locked the fighter into certain weaknesses. There were also outtakes, of Bruce redoing fight seens over and over and over, just to help convey his philosophy of "form-lessness". Each level of the final pagoda building was a completely different "form" with the final top level being Kareem Abdul Jabar who fought so differently because of his size. Just like a Marine, each stage he had to adapt and overcome. The released movie did not convey any of this and really sucked.

His wife Linda Lee is a wonderful lady too!

Yes, I practice Jeet Kune Do and think it to be the end all be all of fighting "philosphies"!

When Bruce Lee was alive, he was the cutting edge. Many karateka of the time were working out with Bruce, including Norris, Stone and Lewis. All of these guys ended up being world champions after they worked with Lee.

Bruce was fearless, skilled and in excellent condition. There are many accounts of his prowess against asian streetfighters. Benny (The Jet) Urquidez, vs. Bruce Lee fight would have been one hell of a fight. Urquidez is a legendary fighter, I think the only advantage Lee may have had, were his grappling skills.

He never fought in the ring, because he believed what he was teaching was not a sport.
His teachings were for real world streetfights and close encounters, basic hand to hand combat.

JKD (the way of the intercepting fist) concept was something he thought up while recuperating from his back injury, he later decided that naming his idea would
just be doing the same thing other arts had done years and years ago. Had he lived, I doubt it would have been called JKD.

Full contact karate and now UFC/NHB is a by product of Lees philosophy. He believed in learning as many disciplines as possible and using what worked for your skill level, and body type. Conditioning was very important.

In Enter the Dragon, Lee kills Jackie Chan in the dungeon fight, Chan is the guy who gets his neck broke, slow it down and see for yourself.

Does anybody recognize the fat guy Lee fights in the beginning of Enter the Dragon??

Lee was a martial artist first, and an actor
2nd, he was truly seeking to liberate the arts.

When Lee opened his first dojo, he was teaching any and all who wanted to learn, he believed
everybody should have the oppurtunity to learn the arts. For this, he was challenged to the famous street fight, which he won.

Lee was, and still is the man. If you don't believe me, go and pick up any martial arts magazine.

Waterdog

this is hilarious... these people are ACTORS! And you are reviewing MOVIES!

There have been some references to the ShorinJi (Shaolin temple) and the creation of what is today called "Martial Arts"  as originated By the Bhuddist Monk Daruma to assist the Monks in maintaining their strength and focus during their meditations, but most of what I have just read is nothing but Blather....

Have you ever heard of Masakazu Takahashi? Or Tomasaburo Okano? Gichin Funakoshi? (true martial artists) Or how about Hidy Ochai? Or Miamoto Miazaki? These men are today's top calibur. I did see one reference to Funakoshi in the thread... as close as anyone got to TRUE Karateka...
Anyone familiar with Shorin Ryu or Shorei Ryu? or the synthesis- Shotokan? Or has the Korean-commercial-martial-arts-learn-in-two-years-contract-school completely confused everyone into thinking that is really what the arts are?

True Martial Arts are not a game, or a sport. They take 10-15 years to truly learn a single style, and at least 20 to become truly proficient.
Definitionally a "master" is the highest ranking living practicioner of a given style. Therefore each Style can have only 1 "master".
Of course if you invent your own style you are indeed the Master of that art...

And what have they done to promote or spread their "mastery" and knowledge? Your listed names aren't known, "because" they do nothing for anyone else. My post did not promote Bruce Lee as the "master" of fighting. My post promoted Bruce Lee as being great by creating a "published philospophy" of learning to live and fight that "anyone" can do.

Being a fighter does not preclude also being good at anything else, whether an actor, monk, philosopher, soldier or whatever. The trying, learning, and improvement, is the goal, not becoming end-all be-all "master".

And so you scoff and imply, that excellent fighters and/or actors are too stupid to be good at anything else? Most good fighters "must" be good at many things. When learning to fight, it is always done in an "act as I do" method, until they become good enough to make "others" act as they do in training them. Most good fighters also realize that pure fighting only gets you so far and tends to be a young man's thing. It would seem that acting and fighting go hand in hand in many aspects.

Bruce Lee's philosophies are in direct contrast to your way of thinking in that fighting in "styles" is all its about. That's why he never promoted himself to be "master" of anything (other's did). Once one is a "master", there is no more to learn. Bruce Lee realized that specialists become obsolete.

How many "styles" are you "master" at? If you are truly good, you can comment how one aspect of a certain style "might" be better than another. But to throw a bunch of names without saying what makes them special and why they are any "better" than other actors is foolish. Basically "my king fu is better than yours" only you aren't backing it up. At least some of the others posts compare scenes in movies to back their statements.

I'd rather hear that Jackie is at least funnier than Bruce, or Van damme can do the super splits.

It's easy to think, that "oh they are just actors, what do they know". Well many of the ones you see now in movies were more than actors once.

Jackie Chan did his childhood training in Beijing's Chinese Opera school. You have no idea how hard it is and how much they learn. Imagine the perfect blend of the Marine Corps mixed with Ballet and Gymnastics.

Jet Li trained Wu Shu and won the Chinese National Martial Arts Contest 5 consequtive years in a row. Do you think it was simple? Could your "masters" do it? Probably no better than Jet Li could do whatever "your" masters did to become good at what they do.

What are you requirements to be considered a "master"? What do they have to do for you to consider them a master? If someone kicks your ass, are they a "master"? Would you be happier if you got your ass kicked by someone "you" consider a master, versus some bum off the street?

I am not scoffing the abilities of your listed "masters", I just believe that there is always someone who is a better fighter and it is not the best fighters who are truly great. It is what you do when you are "not" fighting (such as sharing the knowledge) that makes you a master and that's where I believe Bruce Lee showed his skills.

I will say again those you represent as "masters" are actors. Actors are called actors because they "act".
If you do not know of Funakoshi you are historically challenged..He introduced Karate as we know it to the western world. Though he wrote many books and taught all over Japan the most notable available work of his was "Karate Do Kyohan".
I suggest you study the history of modern martial arts, and will not attempt the arduous task of your education on a message board.
I do not represent myself as a master. I am a 23+ yr practicioner and have met and worked personnaly with several who by all accounts are. I have also spent time working with and training many Dancers, modern and classical, some of whom you would recognize if I were to name, and many you would not. I have trained Rangers, Students, State Police, women's groups, Golden Gloves boxers, Famous Musicians, Children, World class Race drivers, and housewives. All of this does not make me a master.
I have personally had to defend myself 4 times in 23 years. I am well, and pleased it has not been more. Most of my neighbors and friends have no Idea of my skills or training. That is my choice.
Most of the high end trainers do not plaster their efforts all over the media. Becoming their student is usually a word of mouth, personal invititation type of thing. Since many levels of trainng cannot begin until the body has been fully trained, many students in the high level classes are much older than you would think. They can move with an efficiency that defies logic, and mere physical skill. The intellectual and spiritual skills are what they tend to focus on, much like their predecessors of centuries ago. If you have interest I suggest you find a good Traditional style instructor and begin your path with the basics, rather than the "concept" that there is no style- all that propose that have first spent many years training in basic styles- Including Bruce.
Mr. Lee and Mr. Chan, though very entertaining are not the "masters" that films have fictionalized them as. I too enjoy watching their efforts, and am not saying they are not very talented. I also believe they have helped promote martial arts. But much can be done in hollywood that would get you quickly killed or disabled in reality. I'm sure were they to respond to this thread they too would readily agree. Film is a media of fantasy, and make believe. Super man could not REALLY fly....

First, I did not represent "anyone" as a master of anything. I represented people who can be very "good' at more than one thing. I asked what makes "you" label a master.

Yes I know who Funakoshi is. However other's might not. To just throw out names without being able to educate anyone else about your beliefs is a waste. If you have nothing positive to add other than "i am right, you are stupid, why do you bother?

I don't remember every detail of Funakoshi's life, however it was his student Oshima who actually introduced Karate to the western world not Funakoshi. So who was the better master here?

Yes, I have also practiced martial arts for many years in various schools. You can mistakenly believe that I have no knowledge in the martial arts, however "my" skill is not the point. I stated why "I" believe Bruce Lee was great. Not brag about myself. To attempt to belittle me for it, while giving nothing of proof of why you are right and I am wrong, does nothing.

In the Internet world of pseudo names, and anonymous type postings. I need not be impressed or trust you on all the things you "say" you have done. You might be superman and really be able to fly, or you might not be crap. I don't know and I dont care, unless you are going to be open about it. I was trying to get you to give more details on why you think your listed masters are great.

Fighting just to fight "is" a young man's game. Irrespective of how good they are, older/wiser people don't fight just to fight. That's where the wisdom part comes in.

It was not a personal attack to you or your skills or whatever you have done or the people you feel are great. It was to get you to explain and educate me on something I might not know.

In a long enough life, everyone can say they have done this or that with impressive sounding types of people. I have too, but on the Internet, having worked for the President could have meant that you served him a burger at McDonalds.

Semper Fi

Man, some of you guys take this stuff REALLY seriously. Wow.[:o]

Oshima Sensei was student of Funakoshi, who was student of Ito Sensei and Azato Sensei of Okinawa. Funakoshi Brought the Okinawan Matial arts to Tokyo, and the attention of the Emperor Of Japan, precipitating their introduction to the western world. Funakoshi was the creator, or more properly synthesizer, of Shotokan, from his studies of Shorin and Shorei ryu.
Okano Sensei Was also student of Funakoshi. Oshima- (who was pictured In the "Karate Do Kyohan" as the model)- brought Shotokan to the west coast in the 60's in the form of SKA. Okano's top student and 2 time all Japan Katate Grand Champion was Masakazu Takahashi. Mr. Takahashi and Mr. Miazaki were the Kenku Juku Assn Leaders in the on the East Coast in the very early 70s. After Mr. Okano was elected to lead the all Japan Karate assn, Mr Takahashi was promoted to the Western Hemispherical Lead in The Kenko Juku assn., Over Mr. Miazaki (Early 80s). This formed a rift in the Org. And Miazaki split off into his own organization. I was a student of Mr. Takahashi for a decade and a half. During that time I have had the honor to work with Mr. Okano, Mr. Miazaki,Mr. Horie, as well as many other Professionals in other styles and arts. My certifications are from Okano Sensei of Tokyo, and Takahashi Sensei, in the Shotokan Style and Kenko Juku association.

I hope this is real enough for you. I do not seek to belittle any other practicioners, but need to reiterate that media is not reality. And the "master" may be your neighbor, and if he is a traditionalist, you may never know it...

That's only one system of martial arts.  That's only one system of Chinese martial arts.  Granted, it's an important and pervasive system, but that's like using a Kalashnikov to explain all firearms.

Wonderful, I did not know all that, just tidbits. Being one deep into the Karate, why do you feel it is "better" than others? Whether in a traditional training sense or newer? Being in it for 15 + years, I will assume you had an "old" school teacher, i.e. very militaryish and formal. All the newer schools, seem to consensual to me.

I have partaken in other form schools, however felt that JKD offer a much better realistic training for the (most like how you will get into and out of a fight)fighting aspects. Even JKD "uses" forms, it just does not advocate the "perfection" of form in a dynamic environment.

I would agree with you that movies are not a realistic summation of fighting abilities, however I was just trying to convey that, some of them, although principly actors, have also been well-rounded individuals in fighting. Li, Segal, Van dam, Chan and others, might not be true masters, however just being in great shape puts them ahead of 80% of the US population in likelyhood of winning a brawl. Throw in even mediocre fighting skills, jumps them to 90% of the population (sheeple). Throw in "good" fighting skills, Etc, etc.

Being better at fighting than 90% is pretty damn good. Just being in good shape seems beyond the abilities of most people [:(]

Peace to you my friend during this holiday season.

yea yea yea, but who's the best singer?
http://www.cdimportplus.com/albumid/vn20-0011.html [:P]

The question was who the best "marital arts" master, not martial arts.  Read the title [:D].  I have no idea who the best marital arts master is.

First...I admit I know absolutely nada about any of this stuff.  My info comes from nothing more than heresay.
My only info is from a TV interview I watched.  Wesly Snipes was on the Howard Stern show a couple of years ago.  Howard asked him about his "martial arts" skills and the stuff he and others were doing in the movies.  Howard said something about Snipes being a bad dude and asked if he was the baddest.  Snipes said (words to the effect) that most of what he and all the other martial arts actors did was BS and that the most dangerous man in their acting profession was Steven Segal.  Snipes stressed that DANGEROUS stuff.  He said that Segal really was a very bad dude...big, strong and fast.

My .02.

as to the best singer of coarse its bruce lee, with lou furigno as back up..  

Before Bruce Lee died he was studying Ground fighting (Brazilian JuJitsu) to incorporate into JKD. there is also Akido moves in JKD. i miss my Akido classes.

Bruce lee was a philosopher as well as a true Martial artist. he did'nt bow down to pointless tradition, but set forth his own standard. his art was his art.

Form in Formlessness lib

Hoyce Gracie is a great ground fighter, but he'll have to catch Bruce first [:D][:D]

Bruce by the way is not a stranger to ground fighting. JKD does feature counter and reversals.

Brazilian Ju-Jitsu does not require as much strength as Japanese Ju-Jitsu. size and weight matter not. Hoyce's father is an old man and wiegh's less then a Buck and taught the Gracies. technique, leverage, speed, endurance, and position. these are all abilities that Bruce possessed.

Lib-Jitsu

I'm not sure about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, but I'll ask my instructors if he was studying it at the time.  I know he was heavy into Shoot wrestling, kickboxing and boxing, because at the time it was the only arena's open that were as close to the real thing where you can actually walk away if you lost a fight.  (as opposd to getting into a bar fight every night as a test to one's martial art skills)

He also trained a while with "Judo" Gene Labell (please God, let me have spelled his name right.  I always mess it up and Gene hates that).  I've spoken to Gene and his daughter-in-law online and asked about the "Bruce Experience."  Gene will never verify that he did or did not choke out Bruce Lee.  I think it's more of the fact that he won't talk ill of the dead.  Pink Gi or not, Gene is one classy guy.

Oh well, here's my ten cents worth!  The arguement over who's better is a moot point, similar to the "chicken and egg" type analysis bantered about from time to time.  Bruce Lee was no doubt a great artist, but was in fact, a pioneer for modern martial arts around the world.  Jackie Chan is also a great artist, but is focusing primarily on being an entertainer.  Bruce Lee's focus was to foster martial arts teaching and to develop enhanced training techniques (ie JKD), which went against Eastern beliefs and were relatively unknown to Westerners.  I think that the efforts of Bruce Lee has absolutely brought about the development and training of true, combat arts that are needed in this day and age.  In an age where there is little honor among men and "gentlemen's rules" do not apply in a street confrontation, these techniques are stop gap measures to neutralize modern threats, especially in many cases when our right to keep and bear arms is not fully realized through concealed carry rights in all 50 states.  Those people who've not adapted their training for modern threats are perhaps more prone to mortal injury!  Just take a look at the Ultimate Fighting Championships.  Those people her earned their black belts in a few months and were taught "point fighting" were eaten alive by the grappelers and combat fighting artists.  I don't count myself as a "master", but after 13 years of training in martial arts and using it twice on the street to disarm attackers in my lifetime, I'm glad that I didn't go to one of those "black belt factories", where you simply pay for rank, without the benefit of understanding or knowing the techniques that you are supposed to.  I'm alive today by the grace of God and by training my a$$ off all of those years.  

If we can say one thing about Lees philosophy, is that it was for the individual.

Very much like a gunowner who take the time to learn about guns, gun safety and learn to be proficient with his firearms.

It is one of those things you can't learn from reading books, or watching it on TV.
You have to physically do it, and I find that,
a good thing.

Waterdog

Mr. Miyagi...hands down, the best fighter ever!!!  After all, he's the one that taught Daniel-son karate!!!  How many other 75 year old men do you know that could beat up 6 high school students, maintain an apartment complex, form all of the bonsai trees, travel to Okinawa to pay his last respects to his dying father, and still put up with the antics of a teenager?[:D][;)]

I actually met Steven Seagal and his wife(at the time)Kelly LeBrock at Mardi Gras here in Mobile in 1992 or 1993 and again at the filming of "Under Sieze" on the USS Alabama.  He looks alot bigger in the movies and she was down right UGLY!!!

You forgot about him beating up Chozen, Sato, Terry Silver and John Kreese of the "Cobra Kai".

Arnold from Happy Days has nothing on Black Belt Jones.

You are all scaring me to death.