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Posted: 9/28/2008 3:23:39 PM EDT
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Well I say 50bmg.....but was curious about this |
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Seriously, most people consider .338 win mag the smallest load for dangerous game.
Will others do the job? Most of the time; with enough time for the animal to bleed out....eventually. |
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but there have been claims(on the internet and gun rags) that the .458 can kill any North American animal and that made me think about bears.... |
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Re-read my post. Think about it for a minute, and then ask yourself, do you trust it to kill the bear before he eats you? |
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The problem is the "bleed out" part can take 15 to 20 seconds, which can be the longest 15 or 20 seconds of your life if you are having quality time with a bear that has nothing to loose. |
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.458 SOCOM and .50 Beowulf basically replicate the performance of .45-70. And plenty of people hunt bear with .45-70.
Get an AR upper in either caliber (I'd go for .50 Beowulf, but that's just me) and some proper ammunition and just keep pulling the trigger on that fucking bear before he can get you. |
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+1 The 7's are a bit light for the big boys. Konger |
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If people killed bears with muzzleloaders in the days of our forefathers then I'm pretty sure any of those would do just fine. Think about it. The settlers didn't run the bears and wolves out of the east by yelling and throwing rocks. They used flintlocks. The indians before them used spears and arrows.
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.450 if you don't reload
.458 if you do reload. And forget about the polar bears. As a non native Alaskan, the possiblity of you're (legally) shooting one is zilch. Edit for clarification. That should have been written: If you're not a Alaskan native, you're possibility is zilch |
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LOL. One of my past co-workers brought in a magazine, I can't think of the title, from the 50's I believe, that stated .308 being the minimum for Alaskan bears. We got a kick out of it.
I would trust any one of those calibers to get the job done. Put the bullet where it needs to go and don't stop pumping it full of lead until it's down. Same way I do with all animals I shoot. |
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I am a big 458 SOCOM fan, and believe that it would most likely work. However, it would not be my first choice.
It is a hair shy of 45-70 performance, but thefollow-ups are lightening fast so you could likely put two shots on the big bear before he had time to react to the first. Again, not my first choice, but if it's what I had and a big griz started a charge at me... |
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"Big Bores for Big Boars"
I agree with Guns762 and Shivan, furthermore if any of you guys do any serious hunting you know whats up, no one would want to go after Grizz with any of the AR-15big bores unless its all you had. Take a serious load. |
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223 and 243 work very well on browny's. It's all about shot placement and how close you are to the bear.
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I think that might need to be repeated.... |
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Which 45/70 factory Loads? The 'common' off the shelf Win/Rem etc. or the 'Hot' version? Hand loaded, in a Ruger #1, or #3, the 45/70 will reach about 80% of the power of a 458 Win. Mag. |
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I had a 50 BeoWulf, I have a 458 Socom and I carry a Guide Gun chambered for the 45-70. If I have to carry a rifle which is a major pain in the ass.
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Cousin gets within 50ft of the bears. Have been on hunts but the bears all got to the brush so we did not chase any further. He has been taught to get as close as posible to the bears. They hunt in spring and have gone into bear dens to get them up and come out of the dens. |
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I think there is a fairly defined levels for 45/70 loads. Traditional loads - those used in rolling blocks and trapdoors are considered level I. The majority of modern rifles, such as the Marlins and probably most (traditional) falling blocks can shoot level II. There are a few rifles with VERY strong actions (Ruger Model 1 - perhaps others) that are rated at level III.
Without looking in a reloading manual, with a 400 grain bullet I think Level I is about 1400 fps, and level II is closer to 1900 (I do not recall level III at all). I think the 458 socom is closer to a Level I ballistics. Please correct/flame me for any differences in opinions, as this is all typed from distant memory. |
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Corbon's "factory safe" 450gr load is 1600fps, from my memory I've seen people getting their pet 400gr loads up in to your "Level II" territory, in an AR action. Also, there are 458 SOCOM bolt actions around. It's been a long time since I looked at 458 SOCOM ballistics. Hope Marty will see this thread and respond. |
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And how many indians ended up dead hunting them? I prefer to not be mauled by a polar bear thank you. |
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People in the east, which is the area of the country that was being settled for most of the muzzleloader era, were generally only dealing with black bears, not grizz. Black bears are tough, but they are tiny beside browns or polar bears. The "458" that I've most often seen recommended for these bears is .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM, not SOCOM... I think 45-70, especially in modern loadings, or the .338 WM would acceptable for big bears, but given the possibility of the bear turning the tables on you and making you the prey... I would say .375 H&H or a suitable .416 magnum as the minimum I would feel comfortable using. |
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It can be done. My grandfather used to tell me a story about his brother taking down a grizzly with a .22 in the ear. Personally, I'd want something much, much bigger.
Its odd that there are so many this time advocating the larger round. It was general consensus around here about a week ago that 10mm was plenty of gun for grizzly, kodiak and polar bear. |
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Trying to get them to feed slick enough to trust for dangerous game use seems to be the problem. Factory WSM box magazines with follower, or HS Precision - AICS detachables seem to work fairly decent most of the time. If you use 50 Alaskan brass with the rim turned off and cut a WSM/Magnum head diameter and extractor groove they feed even better. With the OAL stretched out another 1/4-3/8" or so - the cartridge becomes much more inspiring. A 16-18" SOCOM bolt rifle with a medium contour barrel and a fairly lightweight stock is a pretty handy woods gun. Lighten the barrel up a bit more and 22" is still easy on the shoulder after several hours of carrying. Edited: Say what you will about the current projectiles available, their construction and intended usage in .452 and .500. I'm of the opinion that they are STILL greatly lacking compared to what is out there for the .458, especially in the use/application we are discussing here. |
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hunting and defense are two seperate issues.
Bears are not bullet proof but how much space are you giving yourself for it to bleed out. I think that 450 would do just fine. that photo by not showing a rifle or something for scale just means its a regular big bear. |
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FYI that pic used to circulate in a hoax email about a huge 14' tall maneating bear. The bear in that pic is not a big as he look the guy is sitting far back from the bear and since the camera can't depict depth it looks like he's sitting next to a f-ing huge bear. If I remember correctly the actually bear was something like 10' tall. Not exactly small but not 14' Goliath either. |
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I don't think that's going to be a problem in North Carolina. |
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Dude, one could totally escape from the zoo and go on a rampage. |
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I understand. But I'm sure we agree that a 458 SOCOM could be loaded hotter, to achieve more velocity, by using a more robust action -- like a bolt gun. I do not honestly believe that a game animal will tell much difference between a 400gr @ 1750fps and a 400gr @ 1900fps though, so a hot handload in the AR action, doing 1700fps or so would be just fine if defending myself. |
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There was an article in Ft Yukon's AK, local paper about a guy killing a Polar Bear with his AR.
Shot Placement is where it counts |
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Absolutely! That additional OAL allows for a wee bit more powder capacity. |
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