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Posted: 12/6/2001 9:38:44 PM EDT
Article with links at: [url]http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/turin3.html[/url] December 7, 1941: Whose Day of Infamy? by Alan Turin Ask Not For Whom The Bell Tolls, It Tolls For Thee. ~ John Donne Sixty years ago today units of the Imperial Japanese Navy attacked U.S. installations in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Most Americans wanted to keep out of the Second World War...and then Japan attacked. Anti-war sentiment was silenced. Four days later Hitler’s Germany declared war on the United States and "we" were in it for better and for worse. FDR and his defenders painted the attack as a surprise, sneak act that justified what followed [participation in the war itself, regimentation of Americans for total war, total war itself, area bombing, unconditional surrender, concentration camps for Americans of Japanese descent, alliance with "Uncle Joe" Stalin, Operation Keelhaul, censorship, high taxes, rationing, propaganda, Bretton Woods, et cetera ad nauseum]. Those opposed to the war before Pearl Harbor had dark suspicions of "...what did the President know and when did he know it..." a useful term for a later president. During the sixty years since FDR’s defenders have gone through two versions. The first, which lasted about 15 years, was that a combination of Japanese perfidy, Army and Navy incompetence, some bureaucratic inefficiency was to blame for being taken by surprise at Pearl Harbor. Even today (see the link to lewrockwell.com Dec. 6, 2001) the Pentagon still is maintaining perfidy by Kimmell and Short. This first version maintains that FDR was, as were most Americans, taken by surprise by the attack. Reputations were smeared or worse by FDR loyalists who claimed White House perfidy in hoodwinking the Army and Navy regarding prior warnings of an attack at Pearl Harbor (see Gary North’s review of this topic). Around 1960 the first version was becoming untenable. Too much contrary evidence was leaking to make it believable. So a second version began to take hold. This second version could be properly called a "New Deal revisionism." New Deal revisionism admits some accusations by the isolationists, but states the importance of beating both a Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, justified both the provocations and concealment of FDR’s prior knowledge of a Japanese attack. It affects that FDR was genuinely surprised by the time, place and severity of the attack. David Ogilvy, founder of the advertising firm of Ogilvy Matheson, served in the British Embassy during the Second World War. In his 1978 memoirs [Blood, Brains and Beer, pp. 89-90] he states (William Stephenson)...was...laconic...A few days before Pearl Harbor, he telegraphed to London that a Japanese attack was expected. No such report had come from the Embassy, so Stephenson was asked to identify his source. His reply, laconic as usual: ‘The President of the United States.’" page 1 of 2
Link Posted: 12/6/2001 9:39:23 PM EDT
page 2 of 2 The problem with the New Deal revisionism is that it moves the debate from the older one of whether President Franklin Roosevelt was guilty of treason ["giving aid and comfort to an enemy in time of war"] to a debate of whether FDR was perfectly innocent or justifiably devious. Pierre Salinger’s defense of John Kennedy’s lying during the Cuban Missle Crisis is typical of the New Deal Revisionism ["...the President has a right to lie..."]. Now a book by a mainstream historian, Thomas Fleming The New Dealers War (buy it here) is making hash of FDR’s defenders. This work concedes the entirety of Pearl Harbor revisionism by the Old Right. Even the title conjurs up an Old Right flavor, "The New Dealers War." During the past summer, the New York Times (see our link to this story) broke the story that the White House was preparing FDR’s speech to Congress in advance of the Pearl Harbor attack. The speech where he so solemnly intoned, "...December 7th, 1941 a day that will live in infamy." In the 60 years since the U.S. Government retains classifications of details of Pearl Harbor. In the 60 times this tired planet has circled the sun those whose blood gets spilt, whose loved one’s get buried from war, who foot the bills of war have not yet been trusted with what the federales have about Pearl Harbor. That is wrong. It is time to open the record the government retains. At 60 years the Japanese nor the Germans will gain advantage over us. What advantage can Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Ladin, Khadaffi, Castro or even Laurant Kabila gain by knowing 60 year old diplomatic secrets? Freeing the Pearl Harbor documents would only harm th reputations of those wo lied to Americans. Who would rant today to keep secret the documents of Pearl Harbor? Perhaps todays war party and, in my opinion, their theoretical or actual opposition, holds no sway with me. Let it all come out now. Then we will know which side of the Pacific that dates infamy lies. December 7, 2001 Alan Turin [send him mail] works in the computer field in Florida. Copyright 2001 LewRockwell.com
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 12:56:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 1:20:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 1:27:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 2:50:46 AM EDT
Read "[b]Pearl Harbor", The Mother of All Conspiracies[/b], by Mark Emmerson Willey or the memoirs of Winston Churchill (principaly Volume 2) and I suspect open-minded folks will come to the same conclusions I did. [b]Pearl Harbor was a Lie[/b], and information of the attack was [b]deliberately [/b]withheld from the Army and Navy commanders in Hawaii. ABD Treaty w/ the Brits and Dutch meant that the US was at war w/ Japanese 4 days before Pearl Harbor took place as a result of Japanese invasion of the Dutch West Indies. Very good read for those interested in the truth. My 2 cents, Mike
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 2:58:45 AM EDT
I am proud to be an American, and, mouth-breathing knuckle-dragger that I am, I care not who approves of my mindset. I am willing to fight and, if need be, die to preserve our way of life. Until someone like Invictus, or his patron saint Lew Rockwell, has done this, their opinions don't mean all that much to me, other than some intellectual amusement.
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I like this guy. Eddie
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 3:01:06 AM EDT
But besides saying it was a conspiracy no one has posted any FACTS! I need more than random general accusations to put on my tin foil hat with matching Kleenex boxes. -Velveeta
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 3:11:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2001 3:31:11 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
Vel - Did you not read my post? Get the books I listed and read them you'll have all the facts you need. IN Vol 2 "[b]Their Finest Hour[/b]" see here [url]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/039541055X/qid=1007726259/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_11_6/002-2087800-9169661[/url] (below Vol 1 is Vol. 2). Mr. Churchill devotes 2 chapters to the explanation of why it was necessary for FDR to withhold information about the attack. Buy it, read it, and you'll have the facts from the horse's mouth. Mike
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 3:26:10 AM EDT
I see, these are "Super secret" facts that I need to buy some cheap book from a crackpot to know. Well I have better things to spend my reading time on. -Velveeta
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 3:32:22 AM EDT
... what a perfect thread to "merge into traffic" on [b]Helldog40[/b]. ... you'll certainly have many friends at this site! ... an excellent synopsis!
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 3:37:21 AM EDT
[b]I see, these are "Super secret" facts that I need to buy some cheap book from a crackpot to know. Well I have better things to spend my reading time on.[/b] -Velveeta So Winston Churchill (author of the book in question) was a [b]crackpot[/b]? I thought he was a rather remarkable individual myself. Mike
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 3:39:11 AM EDT
Still no facts? *YAWN* -Velveeta
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 4:00:59 AM EDT
I care not a whit for Roosevelt and his entire New Deal package, that was basically socialism-lite for America. But whether or not FDR withheld crucial info on the upcoming Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, I haven't a clue. Suffice it to say that World War II was a war in which America [b]had[/b] to fight. It was a fight to the finish for all of Western Civilization! Period. If dumb, happy Americans believe that this fight wasn't theirs, and that Herr Hitler and his Nipponese allies were going to be content to leave us alone, then they're truly idiots! Remember the 'New York' bomber that the Nazis were working on towards the end of the war - a four engined jet bomber designed to fly to the East Coast of the US and return safely. Well, if we had lingered in joining the Allies to crush Hitler, maybe the events of Sept 11, last, could have occurred almost sixty years earlier. On a regular basis! Eric The(WeighedDownWithAllTheHistory)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 4:19:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mr_wilson: Mr. Churchill devotes 2 chapters to the explanation of why it was necessary for FDR to withhold information about the attack.
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As one who has read this book, I fail to see what this proves. yes, FDR wanted the US join the war, the book makes that clear. This is not a revelation, this is not new, and not a secret. Yes, the US had an inkling Japan was going to attack. This is not a revelation, it is not new, and not a secret. The US was even given info, at one point, that a Jap fleet was coming our way. The problem is that there was ALWAYS a jap fleet coming our way. furthermore, there was a lot of evidence indicating they would attack the phillipines. This was true, they did attack the phil., which, BTW, fell into our predictions as to how japan would attack (plan yellow). Churchill does not say that FDR KNEW they would attack pearl harbor. Information suggeting such was delivered, but there was not evidence that anyone anyone knew, notwithstanding other conspiratorial books which suggest we weren't isolationist enough.
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 4:30:44 AM EDT
Tonight, I'll be having dinner with my grandfather. Sixty years ago today, he was in an Army AAA battery just outside Kole Kole Pass and was personally strafed by a Zero that went by so close he could see the pilot grinning at him. He went on to own a string of pharmacies here in Indiana. He's a great man. QS
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 4:36:23 AM EDT
Post from QuietShootr -
Tonight, I'll be having dinner with my grandfather.
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Give our regards to your grandfather! Don't forget to make a tape of him one day recounting his exploits that infamous day! There will be future generations of QuietShootrs, and others, who will love seeing their forefather actually telling the tale! Eric The(ThereWereGiantsInTheEarthInThoseDays,Your­GrandfatherSoundsLikeOneOfThem!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 4:50:49 AM EDT
so, does this mean that it's ok that the japanese attacked pearl harbor, and that germany was subjugating europe? boy that dirty commie fdr sure was smart, suckering hitler and tojo into attacking and declaring war![:E]
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 5:30:41 AM EDT
Ah, leave it to Lew Rockwell and Invictus to attempt to blame EVERYTHING on the US. How unsurprising.
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 5:31:19 AM EDT
I'm going to do that....I'm getting a video camera today to do that very thing. Thank you for your kind words, I will be sure to tell him. Also, he was a nationally ranked .45 shooter in the 1960s. I learned to shoot from him on a Model 41 Smith and 1922M2 Springfield at the tender age of six. [marines] QS
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 9:45:53 AM EDT
Great article. Too bad many people are blinded by loyalty to the government and not to the truth. here is some more great info: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=76027&page=1[/url]
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 9:54:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: Great article. Too bad many people are blinded by loyalty to the government and not to the truth.
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It seems to me that it is you and Invictus who are blinded by hatred of our government. The facts are there, and they don't support the innuendo that the two of you buy into hook, line and sinker.
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 1:14:16 PM EDT
Invictus, I know this is picking nits but the quote is "A DATE that will live in infamy." (Not a day.)
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 1:32:19 PM EDT
Mindless Blather Originally Spewed Forth By Invictus: Blah, blah...vast conspiracy...blah, blah...see, other people are spouting the same nonsense, so it must be true...blah, blah...
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What [b]is[/b] the weather like on your planet, Invictus?
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 2:13:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: It seems to me that it is you and Invictus who are blinded by hatred of our government. The facts are there, and they don't support the innuendo that the two of you buy into hook, line and sinker.
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Well it seems to me that you and a lot of others are blinded by a love of the government, or at least a belief that the government and its agents can do no wrong. You ignore the evidence and call us paranoid conspiracy theorists.
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 2:23:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Velveeta: I see, these are "Super secret" facts that I need to buy some cheap book from a crackpot to know. Well I have better things to spend my reading time on. -Velveeta
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not sure of the validity of the book, but is Winston Churchill a crackpot?
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 2:29:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: I care not a whit for Roosevelt and his entire New Deal package, that was basically socialism-lite for America. But whether or not FDR withheld crucial info on the upcoming Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, I haven't a clue. Suffice it to say that World War II was a war in which America [b]had[/b] to fight. It was a fight to the finish for all of Western Civilization! Period. If dumb, happy Americans believe that this fight wasn't theirs, and that Herr Hitler and his Nipponese allies were going to be content to leave us alone, then they're truly idiots! Remember the 'New York' bomber that the Nazis were working on towards the end of the war - a four engined jet bomber designed to fly to the East Coast of the US and return safely. Well, if we had lingered in joining the Allies to crush Hitler, maybe the events of Sept 11, last, could have occurred almost sixty years earlier. On a regular basis! Eric The(WeighedDownWithAllTheHistory)Hun[>]:)]
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i agree with you Eric. i remember seeing a special on the boob tube a couple years ago about the japanese makeing biological weapons to release in the US. to target non-combatants!!! the US found the balloon and agreed to let the Japanese war criminals off if they turned most all of their research over to the US. we had no way around WW2. the japanese tested their weapons in china with genocidal affects; destroying entire chinese villages. i shudder to think what would have happened if a multitude of those balloons reached US soil. and the pompous japs blame us for targetting non-combatants. screwem' anti-chemical warefare lib
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 3:02:08 PM EDT
You guys are forgeting the aliens that the government is hiding at area 51!
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 5:11:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARDOC: You guys are forgeting the aliens that the government is hiding at area 51!
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HIDING HELL!!!; i just saw one fly over a moment ago [:D][:D] [bounce]lib
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 7:05:10 PM EDT
Good one helldog 40. Wish I had stated that. Yes you have friends here.
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 7:13:00 PM EDT
Robert Stinnett covers the strategic and tactical intelligence items connected to the Dec 7th attack on Oahu in his book "Day of Deceit." Yes, portions of the US govt knew of the attack...and also engineered the process that caused the Japanese to take action. Also the works of author Gordon W. Prange are excellant...."At Dawn We Slept." Our warship and merchant ship losses in the N.Atlantic conducting the Neutrality Patrol did not provoke the public into war with Germany....Dec 7th provided the catalyst to galvanize the public. FDR and other leaders knew this....and they also had prior knowledge of the attack. History is wonderful.....just think what would of happened if the Pacific Fleet carriers were in Pearl on Dec 7th... No Midway.....and a much longer war. And the Dec 7th attack changed US submarine engagement procedures....after the attack, we conducted unrestricted submarine warfare. This alone made a major contribution to defeating Japan. I visited Oahu this past spring....awesome experience. And today....we pay tribute to our vets and all who paid the supreme price. They did the job and returned home and made America great.....they are truely a special generation of Americans. We must never forget.
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 7:46:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TexasAg: Robert Stinnett covers the strategic and tactical intelligence items connected to the Dec 7th attack on Oahu in his book "Day of Deceit." Yes, portions of the US govt knew of the attack...and also engineered the process that caused the Japanese to take action.
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No wrong on all counts. First, ACCORDING TO STINNET they knew about the attack. In reality, they knew SOME attack SOMEWHERE was likely. No one believed it would come at Pearl. Second, they did not "engineer the process" to force a Japanese attack. They tried to punish Japan for its brutal imperialism by economic means, AS CIVILIZED NATIONS DO before resorting to force. The fact that the barbarous Japanese resorted to violence to FORCE us to sell them oil and iron is to THEIR shame, not ours.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 7:53:17 AM EDT
As posted by another AR15.com member..."As Stinnett documented...a secret memo dated October 7, 1940, McCollum’s proposal called for eight provocations aimed at Japan. President Roosevelt acted swiftly, and throughout 1941, implemented the remaining seven provocations. The island nation’s militarists used the provocations to seize control of Japan and organize their military forces for war against the U.S., Great Britain, and the Netherlands. During the next 11 months, the White House followed the Japanese war plans through the intercepted and decoded diplomatic and military communications intelligence. At least 1,000 Japanese radio messages per day were intercepted by monitoring stations operated by the U.S. and her Allies, and the message contents were summarized for the White House. The intercept summaries from Station CAST on Corregidor Island were current -- contrary to the assertions of some who claim that the messages were not decoded and translated until years later -- and they were clear: Pearl Harbor would be attacked on December 7, 1941, by Japanese forces advancing through the Central and North Pacific Oceans." US and other nation's maritime and shore radio stations tracked the Japanese fleet as it advanced across the northern Pacific....it did not observe radio silence. It's traffic was monitored and positions plotted. We also tracked the Japanese merchant tanker fleet....the "fleet train" that fueled the Japanese carriers. We knew they were advancing across the Pacific...as to where they would attack?...Alaska, Oahu, the West Coast?? Other intel clearly points to that. And the US govt intentionally withheld intel from Kimmel and Short. Key Army and Naval assets on Oahu, had intel and were instructed not to share it with Kimmel and Short. As before....FDR and other govt officials..could not push the US public into the European war. The US naval and merchant marine losses in the Atlantic, to U-Boats with the neutrality patrol did not provoke us. The eight steps as outlined by McCollum were implemented by FDR and his administration. It gave Japan little room to maneuver. Some feel, FDR and others knew the US had to take the stand and fight-the-fight. History has proven this had to be done. As with all controversial history....sometime in the future..the NSA will release additional key intel records and the picture will be clear.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 12:15:18 PM EDT
How convenient..."in the future, they will release secret documents to prove my conspiracy theory is right!" ROFL!
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 1:01:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mr_wilson: ...Churchill devotes 2 chapters to the explanation of why it was necessary for FDR to withhold information about the attack... Mike
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Thank Goodness we all know who was really running this country on 06-Dec-41. I too wonder if FDR knew more than he let on. What I am certain of is this, the Japanese [b]DID[/b] attack us, killing more than 3,000 Americans. I do not, for one moment, regret that these bastards got their collective butts kicked all around the Pacific, and then 2 million of them were roasted in their own backyard. As for Helldog40: You sir, are absolutely corect!
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