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krpind
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Posted: 9/17/2008 12:20:14 AM

Originally Posted By Paul:

Originally Posted By krpind:

Even better show how a generator that usually have a maximum 30 amp curcuits can power up the grid.

AGAIN I'm more than willing to be shown this is actually possible, just so far all we have heard is "oh noes you could kill a mofo" with zero proof that a pissant genny that won't even power up everything in your home is capable of such a feat.

Sorry....I'm just very skeptical that it would be possible to powerup the grid with 30 amps. That just doesn't seem possible.


30 amps can kill ... 0.3 amps can kill.

Master Chief Electrican's Mate (ret)


There is no doubt about that Paul, the question is can you backfeed the grid with a 30 amp genny without tripping the genny breaker?

There is no way. The amp draw on the grid is HUGE, and a little ass generator is NOT going to power it up. It simply isn't possible
ARFCOM.....Time well wasted.


Originally Posted By red65:
Ask youself: What organization do libtards hate the most?

Answer: The NRA
Subnet
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Posted: 9/17/2008 12:33:26 AM

Originally Posted By Paul:

Originally Posted By krpind:

Even better show how a generator that usually have a maximum 30 amp curcuits can power up the grid.

AGAIN I'm more than willing to be shown this is actually possible, just so far all we have heard is "oh noes you could kill a mofo" with zero proof that a pissant genny that won't even power up everything in your home is capable of such a feat.

Sorry....I'm just very skeptical that it would be possible to powerup the grid with 30 amps. That just doesn't seem possible.


30 amps can kill ... 0.3 amps can kill.

Master Chief Electrican's Mate (ret)

Ohm's law is the law ... it's not guidance.



Ohm's law is being observed.
Whoever pissed in your Cheerios swiped your manners while you were savoring the taste.-FLAL1A
TexAR
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Posted: 9/17/2008 12:40:40 AM

Originally Posted By Subnet:
I'm not smarter than anyone, I just think a couple few of you are being a little over dramatic, is all.



Drama Queens? On ARFcom? Surely you jest.
PanzerOfDoom
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Posted: 9/17/2008 12:52:47 AM
I'll be opening my main breaker and plugging in my pigtail.


Look out GA will be hot.
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SUPERSPORT
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Posted: 9/17/2008 1:35:08 AM
Are all Transfer Switches only like 6 circuits? Don't they make them to run the whole house?
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Tim22
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Posted: 9/17/2008 1:44:51 AM
swithes are switches are switches, they can all fail. blades in disconnects will not disconnect. breakers can not break, breakers can not make. isolation relays fail, current sensing relays fail, overloads fail. all that said, If I had a generator it would be hard wired to the top of my a/c disconnect to its own disconnect. during an extended power outage the main breaker would be flipped(and checked with a meter) the disconnect on the a/c would be pulled and the disconnect on the generator would be put in. and the juices would flow.
but I play with elect. everyday..........If you dont know,step away
swingset
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Posted: 9/17/2008 1:49:05 AM

Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By pv74:

Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By pv74:
For crying out loud....You are a network engineer...not an electrician.

Get a transfer switch and have it professionally installed before you kill somone. It aint that much money.

You are wasting your time, your money and nominating yourself for a Darwin Award with your Rube Goldberg approach





This ain't complicated, dude...


If a few hundred bucks prevents a catastrophic mistake....spend the few hundred bucks.


If I can manage to keep my booger hook off the bang button of my no-safety having Glock, I can (and do - this is implemented, not proposed) disconnect utility power to the panel. Jeez, guys.

Power out: Open the main breaker. Close the generator breaker.
Power restored: Open generator breaker. Close main breaker.

If there be a man who can't manage something so incredibly simple, I'm calling his ability to safely carry a loaded pistol into question.




Precisely.
If nothing ever changed, there'd be no butterflies. But, I still can't get away with calling anyone fucking douchebag. Much to do.
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Posted: 9/17/2008 2:37:15 AM

Originally Posted By krpind:

Originally Posted By Paul:

Originally Posted By krpind:

Even better show how a generator that usually have a maximum 30 amp curcuits can power up the grid.

AGAIN I'm more than willing to be shown this is actually possible, just so far all we have heard is "oh noes you could kill a mofo" with zero proof that a pissant genny that won't even power up everything in your home is capable of such a feat.

Sorry....I'm just very skeptical that it would be possible to powerup the grid with 30 amps. That just doesn't seem possible.


30 amps can kill ... 0.3 amps can kill.

Master Chief Electrican's Mate (ret)


There is no doubt about that Paul, the question is can you backfeed the grid with a 30 amp genny without tripping the genny breaker?

There is no way. The amp draw on the grid is HUGE, and a little ass generator is NOT going to power it up. It simply isn't possible


That’s a strawman argument. After a storm, tornado, hurricane, earthquake, or ice storm--you know, all of the reasons your power would quit and you would connect your generator--you wouldn’t’ be backfeeding the grid because of downed lines. It’s very common in rural areas to have only one house on a transformer. If the line to that transformer is knocked down and you backfeed power, your little generator will have no problem supplying enough current to kill someone who touches the wires connected to high side of your transformer.

I worked on machinery in a textile plant for more than twenty years and as an electrician on and off for over forty years, and dozens of times I’ve seen power backfed through a transformer that raised the voltage to even more dangerous potentials. You don’t expect to see power on a circuit that appears to be disconnected by power so it is very easy to be caught by surprise. I know I have.z
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Backstop
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Posted: 9/17/2008 6:14:03 AM

Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:

Originally Posted By Backstop:

Originally Posted By DV8:
BTW...my nanny stater comment was a reference to the guy who said it was illegal to buy 10 gauge wire.


I missed that part.


There's a reason you missed it - it never happened. DV8 misinterpreted my post on page 3, in which I said that cords are designed with a male and female prong so that the cord isn't energized with an exposed male prong. He interpreted that to mean that I was saying that 10 gauge wire was illegal. Read the prior page.


Thanks.

Yeah, I went back and re-read, and couldn't find it. So I figured someone edited.
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Posted: 9/17/2008 8:01:38 AM
The breaker box on my house has a padlock tab next to the main switch. When the main switch is off and the generator is connected to the breaker box then the main switch is locked out with a padlock. The key is zip tied to the generator.
Christ has set us free to live a free life. So take your stand! Never again let anyone put a harness of slavery on you.

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blackhawkhunter
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Posted: 9/17/2008 8:11:04 AM

Originally Posted By COZ_45:

Blackhawkhunter told everyone in the survival forums that I would die and my house would burn, but it has not happened because I'm not a fumbling idiot who does not understand the way it works.

.


IIRC that conversation was about separating grounds and neutrals correctly and I said it possible for it to happen. I also said you can fry electronics and overheat conductors which, over time, can degrade insulation and lead to fires.

Also, IIRC, I quoted an excerpt from Mike Holts code interpretation and everyone shut up and the thread died right off.
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blackhawkhunter
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Posted: 9/17/2008 8:12:22 AM
[Last Edit: 9/17/2008 8:13:10 AM by blackhawkhunter]

Originally Posted By Backstop:

Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:

Originally Posted By Backstop:

Originally Posted By DV8:
BTW...my nanny stater comment was a reference to the guy who said it was illegal to buy 10 gauge wire.


I missed that part.


There's a reason you missed it - it never happened. DV8 misinterpreted my post on page 3, in which I said that cords are designed with a male and female prong so that the cord isn't energized with an exposed male prong. He interpreted that to mean that I was saying that 10 gauge wire was illegal. Read the prior page.



Thanks.

Yeah, I went back and re-read, and couldn't find it. So I figured someone edited.


I thought the comment was aimed at putting two male cord caps on a 10 gauge cord.... not the 10 gauge wire itself.
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reelserious
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Posted: 9/17/2008 8:24:44 AM

Originally Posted By PanzerOfDoom:
I'll be opening my main breaker and plugging in my pigtail.


Look out GA will be hot.



The entire state OMG
AeroE
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Posted: 9/17/2008 8:25:50 AM
[Last Edit: 9/17/2008 8:53:31 AM by AeroE]

Originally Posted By SUPERSPORT:
Are all Transfer Switches only like 6 circuits? Don't they make them to run the whole house?


Several companies make larger transfer switches. Alliance Controls is one and they have an extensive web site with a huge variety of panels. Northern Hydraulic sells Alliance and the selection on their web site is simpler to digest.

The smart way to use a transfer switch is to bring in different circuits in the house as needed, in order to minimize the generator size needed. That means more trips to the basement to operate the panel, but how many times will you need lights in a seldom used part of the house in daylight? If you decide to run central air conditioning, that will size the generator. Large generators use an enormous amount of fuel, you'll have to decide for yourself whether it's worth the cost. I see that Gernac is offering some smaller units for permanent installation now that make more sense than big ass 15 kW and larger units.




Do not hire anyone posting in this thread that believes the airplane will not fly
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=543655&page=1


SYSTEM MESSAGE: tard limit exceeded on both sides. (Unknown Moderator/Staff)
Joe_Blow
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Posted: 9/17/2008 8:48:36 AM

Originally Posted By Subnet:
...snip..
It's not an idiot-proof setup, so if you're an idiot, please disregard.
...technical stuff snip...


I stopped reading.
These things happen.
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Posted: 9/17/2008 8:52:31 AM
And from left field:

This random thought.

This and other threads on other topics remind me that we have two types of people here.

Star Trek people who think there should be safeguards to keep people safe. Handrails should be installed next to places where a falling hazard exist to prevent injury or death.

and

Star Wars people who think common sense ought to be sufficient. Handrails are not necessary simply because if people mind themselves they won't fall.

The two sides will never agree on anything since it's a basic core viewpoint on life.

Food for thought.
macros73
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Posted: 9/17/2008 9:03:38 AM
[Last Edit: 9/17/2008 9:04:34 AM by macros73]
I'll say it since no one else is willing to step up and do it: you're a fucking moron, Sub, for doing this. You're placing your personal convenience above the safety of others. Worse, you know and have the means to connect the generator safely, but out of your own deluded hubris you refuse to do so. The icing on the cake is that you're encouraging others to follow your stupidity.

This has nothing to do with whether you can safely handle a Glock. Any moron can SEE a Glock, any moron can SEE a Glock's trigger, and guess what? Plenty of morons negligently discharge their Glocks.

What you are doing isn't like carrying a holstered Glock. It's more like firing off random shots in different directions without any care or concern that someone else might get hurt.

Your "advice" would invalidate the home insurance of anyone who followed it, including yourself, if a fire resulted. It can kill or injure linemen or neighbors. If it came to the attention of a locality that enforces the NEC, the home owner would be fined and forced to undo the changes.
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Posted: 9/17/2008 9:18:27 AM

Originally Posted By psdiver102:
In most places it is not illegal. As long as there is no chance of power being fed back down the line. As for pulling the meter, have the utility worker arrested for criminal trespass. It worked for my neighbor.


I ask my Dad about the trespass part of this. He worked for the power company for 30 years. He said the meter, pole, & such is their property & NOT yours. They can come & take it for any number of reasons. And he did not work for VEPCO or whatever they are calling theirselves this year.

Mike
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Posted: 9/17/2008 9:21:30 AM
From Hurricane Hugo....
OK, these are from Puerto Rico.... but this is the first thing I came on doing a quick search.....


Update: Work-Related Electrocutions Associated with Hurricane Hugo -- Puerto Rico
When Hurricane Hugo struck the northeastern corner of Puerto Rico on September 18, 1989, thousands of residents of low-lying and flood-prone areas escaped harm because of timely hurricane warnings and effective evacuation (1). In the postimpact phase of the storm, however, other dangers threatened persons making repairs in the devastated areas. Approximately 85% of the island was without power because of damage to power lines and poles. Energized downed power lines presented hazards for electric company repair crews and for members of communities affected by the hurricane. Thus far, six persons (all males) have been electrocuted in separate incidents attributable to hazards resulting from the hurricane (1). Five of these deaths were work-related.

In response to a request from the commonwealth epidemiologist, Puerto Rico Department of Health, a Fatal Accident Circumstances and Epidemiology (FACE) team from the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), CDC, assisted local health officials in the investigation of the five occupational electrocutions. A brief summary of the cases follows.

Case 1. At 12 noon on September 20, a 35-year-old tree trimmer/crew leader was electrocuted when he contacted a dangling, energized power line. The line, believed to be de-energized, was receiving "feedback" electric current from portable emergency generators operated by local businesses.

Case 2. At 3:30 p.m. on September 21, a 42-year-old electric lineman with 19 years' experience was preparing to work on a power line believed to be de-energized. The line, however, was receiving "feedback" current from portable generators in use in the area, and the worker was electrocuted when he touched the line.

Case 3. At 8:45 p.m. on September 22, a 38-year-old electric lineman with 14 years' experience was electrocuted when he contacted a dangling, energized 4800-volt power line while working in a dark, wooded area.

Case 4. At 8:30 p.m. on September 28, a 30-year-old electric lineman with 6 years' experience was electrocuted while working from a bucket truck at night. He inadvertently activated and was unable to disengage the control lever that regulates movement of the bucket, resulting in movement of the bucket and worker into an adjacent energized power line.

Case 5. At 6:30 p.m. on September 28, a 28-year-old meter-reader who had been assisting a line crew was electrocuted when he touched an energized metal clothesline wire at a private residence. One of the metal poles supporting the clothesline wire was in contact with the metal roof of the house, on which an energized electrical line that had been torn from a pole was lying.

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Posted: 9/17/2008 9:32:51 AM
[Last Edit: 9/17/2008 10:49:30 AM by blackhawkhunter]
And here is another: From an OSHA case document.

Facts

In July 2005, Pike sent a crew to Flomaton, Alabama, after the Gulf Coast area had been damaged by a hurricane. Alabama Power Company contracted Pike to assist with repairing downed power lines and broken poles. Pike’s crew comprised six workers supervised by foreman and lineman Richard Green. The crew traveled to Flomaton on July 11 and spent the night. At 7:00 a.m. on July 12, Green and Pike linemen Ronnie Adams and Robert Mitchell met with employees from Alabama Power Company to discuss the repair work (Tr. 23-25). Green and Adams were Class A lineman. Mitchell was a Class C lineman (at the time of the hearing, he was a Class B lineman) (Tr. 56-58).

An Alabama Power Company representative warned Pike’s employees to be on the lookout for portable generators. Homeowners often use portable generators as a temporary energy source when storms knock out power lines. If the homeowner hooks up the generator directly to the house’s circuit (rather than using it to power a single appliance), energy from the generator could “backfeed” from the house and re-energize the power lines (Tr. 26-27).

After meeting with Alabama Power Company, Green held a meeting with the six Pike employees. He explained the work to be done and divided the men into two crews: Mitchell worked with Ryan Chamberlain and Curtis Montgomery, and Adams worked with groundman Matthew Snow and equipment operator Todd Casey (Tr. 39, 66). Green assigned Adams’s crew to replace a damaged pole and to re-hang the four lines on a three-phase tap line on Jackson Street (Tr. 37-39). Green worked with Adams’s crew until they started setting the new pole, around noon. Then Green left to work with Mitchell’s crew (Tr. 72-73).

Pike was treating the power lines as de-energized because Alabama Power Company had opened the switches inside the substation (which prevented the circuit from being completed and energizing the lines). At the pole directly outside the substation designated as Y5307 on Wilkerson Street, Pike opened the set of switches on the pole, flagged, tagged, and grounded them. Pike also removed the jumpers to the phases from the switches at pole Y5307 (Exh. C-5). Green testified Pike did this despite the open switches in the substation just a few feet away “as an extra layer of protection” (Tr. 32). Also, Pike opened the set of switches and flagged, tagged, and grounded them at a pole designated as Y7929 on Ringold Street (Tr. 30-32). When operating normally, the three-phase line is energized at 7,220 volts, phase to ground (Exh. J-1; Tr. 27).

The two poles (Y5307 and Y7929) were on the same power distribution line. Between these two poles, a tap power line ran down Jackson Street and terminated at a dead-end pole. The transformer located on the dead-end pole was not opened, tagged, flagged and grounded.

After Green left, Adams went up in an insulated lift to repair the damaged lines. Three of the lines (the neutral, the road phase, and the field phase) were broken. The fourth line (the central line) was sagging but intact (Tr. 61). Although Adams could have repaired the sagging central line without splicing it, he chose to cut the line. The line on which Adam was working was connected by a secondary line to a house at the end of Jackson Street (referred to at the hearing as “a doctor’s house”). The homeowner had connected a portable generator to the house’s circuitry which caused electrical energy to backfeed to the line Adams was splicing, energizing it. Adams was electrocuted when he cut the line (Tr. 40, 95, 222, 269). The company has no written work rule requiring employees working on de-energized lines to wear protective rubber gloves (Tr. 40, 44). Adams was wearing leather work gloves, but not rubber gloves that day.

Compliance officer Dale Schneider arrived at the site the day after Adams’s death, on July 13, 2005. Following Schneider’s investigation of the circumstances surrounding the fatality, the Secretary issued the citations that gave rise to this proceeding on January 6, 2006.
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avslash
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Posted: 9/17/2008 9:37:59 AM

Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:
That's cheap. From what I have read, it's also dangerous. There's the obvious problem with the potential for backfeeding/double feeding and I'm sure some of the electricians who inhabit the survival forum will be along soon to tell you why it's a bad idea.

I picked up a generator and single-circuit transfer switch for something like $350. It only runs the furnace through the transfer switch (freezer/fridge are run through extension cords) but it's up to code and perfectly safe.

edited to add: just searched the survival forum archive. My setup was actually $280 out the door for the generator and transfer switch. Here's the survival forum thread on the "poor man's transfer switch" in which some electricians claim it's dangerous not to use a transfer switch. archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=10&f=17&t=607662


By killing the main breaker, you are completely disconnecting the panel from the grid. If the generator is feeding the panel through it's own breaker, and you have killed the breaker that separates the grid from your panel, it is physically impossible to backfeed the grid.

If you leave the main breaker on (user error), you done fucked up, and may God have mercy on your wretched soul.


Isn't it possible to backfeed on the neutral??? That remains attached to the grid even when the main is thrown.
Dracster
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Posted: 9/17/2008 10:40:05 AM
[Last Edit: 9/17/2008 11:11:55 AM by Dracster]

Originally Posted By pv74:
For crying out loud....You are a network engineer...not an electrician.

Get a transfer switch and have it professionally installed before you kill somone. It aint that much money.

You are wasting your time, your money and nominating yourself for a Darwin Award with your Rube Goldberg approach





It works
It works
The nominations open every day as soon as we step out of bed in the morning

ETA. My house has power so if it burns down it happens the old fashioned way. There are, however, 5 poles snapped clean off at the entrance to my subdivision so I'm sure I'll lose power at some point when they replant those power trees.
Max_Power
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Posted: 9/17/2008 10:55:54 AM

Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By DV8:

Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By DV8:
I run my genset through my dryer 220 outlet. Prior to doing so, I pull the meter off the outside of the house because I don't have transfer switch. Once pulled, it is IMPOSSIBLE for power to run back to the pole.

Super cheap and super easy and 100% foolproof.


You're working too hard.

Just flip your main breaker off. If you do, it's impossible for power to run back to the pole. You've severed the one and only connection between your panel and the grid.


My breaker box doesn't have a main (we call them a FPL switch). In lieu of flipping the main, I pulled the meter.


No kidding? That kinda blows. What if you want to kill power to the entire house for some reason? You have no choice, other than pulling the meter?



I'm in the same boat. My house (built 1950) doesn't have a main breaker. If I need to kill power to the entire house I have to flip all the breakers. PITA
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
blackhawkhunter
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Posted: 9/17/2008 11:00:25 AM
Be careful pulling and placing a meter with a load on it. It can draw a pretty good arc.

Turn off all breakers before doing that.

Not saying dont do it, just saying make sure there is no load on it. Many power companies require manual bypass levers in their meter sockets for just that reason.
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krpind
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Posted: 9/17/2008 11:17:23 AM

Originally Posted By blackhawkhunter:
And here is another: From an OSHA case document.

Facts

In July 2005, Pike sent a crew to Flomaton, Alabama, after the Gulf Coast area had been damaged by a hurricane. Alabama Power Company contracted Pike to assist with repairing downed power lines and broken poles. Pike’s crew comprised six workers supervised by foreman and lineman Richard Green. The crew traveled to Flomaton on July 11 and spent the night. At 7:00 a.m. on July 12, Green and Pike linemen Ronnie Adams and Robert Mitchell met with employees from Alabama Power Company to discuss the repair work (Tr. 23-25). Green and Adams were Class A lineman. Mitchell was a Class C lineman (at the time of the hearing, he was a Class B lineman) (Tr. 56-58).

An Alabama Power Company representative warned Pike’s employees to be on the lookout for portable generators. Homeowners often use portable generators as a temporary energy source when storms knock out power lines. If the homeowner hooks up the generator directly to the house’s circuit (rather than using it to power a single appliance), energy from the generator could “backfeed” from the house and re-energize the power lines (Tr. 26-27).

After meeting with Alabama Power Company, Green held a meeting with the six Pike employees. He explained the work to be done and divided the men into two crews: Mitchell worked with Ryan Chamberlain and Curtis Montgomery, and Adams worked with groundman Matthew Snow and equipment operator Todd Casey (Tr. 39, 66). Green assigned Adams’s crew to replace a damaged pole and to re-hang the four lines on a three-phase tap line on Jackson Street (Tr. 37-39). Green worked with Adams’s crew until they started setting the new pole, around noon. Then Green left to work with Mitchell’s crew (Tr. 72-73).

Pike was treating the power lines as de-energized because Alabama Power Company had opened the switches inside the substation (which prevented the circuit from being completed and energizing the lines). At the pole directly outside the substation designated as Y5307 on Wilkerson Street, Pike opened the set of switches on the pole, flagged, tagged, and grounded them. Pike also removed the jumpers to the phases from the switches at pole Y5307 (Exh. C-5). Green testified Pike did this despite the open switches in the substation just a few feet away “as an extra layer of protection” (Tr. 32). Also, Pike opened the set of switches and flagged, tagged, and grounded them at a pole designated as Y7929 on Ringold Street (Tr. 30-32). When operating normally, the three-phase line is energized at 7,220 volts, phase to ground (Exh. J-1; Tr. 27).

The two poles (Y5307 and Y7929) were on the same power distribution line. Between these two poles, a tap power line ran down Jackson Street and terminated at a dead-end pole. The transformer located on the dead-end pole was not opened, tagged, flagged and grounded.

After Green left, Adams went up in an insulated lift to repair the damaged lines. Three of the lines (the neutral, the road phase, and the field phase) were broken. The fourth line (the central line) was sagging but intact (Tr. 61). Although Adams could have repaired the sagging central line without splicing it, he chose to cut the line. The line on which Adam was working was connected by a secondary line to a house at the end of Jackson Street (referred to at the hearing as “a doctor’s house”). The homeowner had connected a portable generator to the house’s circuitry which caused electrical energy to backfeed to the line Adams was splicing, energizing it. Adams was electrocuted when he cut the line (Tr. 40, 95, 222, 269). The company has no written work rule requiring employees working on de-energized lines to wear protective rubber gloves (Tr. 40, 44). Adams was wearing leather work gloves, but not rubber gloves that day.

Compliance officer Dale Schneider arrived at the site the day after Adams’s death, on July 13, 2005. Following Schneider’s investigation of the circumstances surrounding the fatality, the Secretary issued the citations that gave rise to this proceeding on January 6, 2006.

I'll be damned....you learn something new everday.

Still seems VERY remote and almost imossble....but there it is.

Thanks for finding it
ARFCOM.....Time well wasted.


Originally Posted By red65:
Ask youself: What organization do libtards hate the most?

Answer: The NRA
COZ_45
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Posted: 9/17/2008 11:24:40 AM

Originally Posted By avslash:

Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:
That's cheap. From what I have read, it's also dangerous. There's the obvious problem with the potential for backfeeding/double feeding and I'm sure some of the electricians who inhabit the survival forum will be along soon to tell you why it's a bad idea.

I picked up a generator and single-circuit transfer switch for something like $350. It only runs the furnace through the transfer switch (freezer/fridge are run through extension cords) but it's up to code and perfectly safe.

edited to add: just searched the survival forum archive. My setup was actually $280 out the door for the generator and transfer switch. Here's the survival forum thread on the "poor man's transfer switch" in which some electricians claim it's dangerous not to use a transfer switch. archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=10&f=17&t=607662


By killing the main breaker, you are completely disconnecting the panel from the grid. If the generator is feeding the panel through it's own breaker, and you have killed the breaker that separates the grid from your panel, it is physically impossible to backfeed the grid.

If you leave the main breaker on (user error), you done fucked up, and may God have mercy on your wretched soul.


Isn't it possible to backfeed on the neutral??? That remains attached to the grid even when the main is thrown.


The main is thrown. Just like cutting a line
VIVERE PARATUS

McCain-Palin '08


COZ_45
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Posted: 9/17/2008 11:59:35 AM
Note to those of you (us) still on genny power.

Don't forget to change the oil based on manufacturer's recommendations.

I just changed mine as Briggs and Stratto recommends every 50 hours.

It's cranking just fine...
VIVERE PARATUS

McCain-Palin '08


sparkyCG
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Posted: 9/17/2008 12:45:42 PM
[Last Edit: 9/17/2008 12:47:27 PM by sparkyCG]
Is this illegal?

Usually illegal
I would seriously like to know if this is illegal or not, because I have had this discussion with so many people and would hate to see one of my family or friends hurt someone or get screwed.

doing something extremely dangerous and probably illegal, or being safe and legal.


I'm concerned with the legality of this....

As an industrial electrician I will say this has WRONG wrote all over it. Is it illegal? You bet it is.
Probably 100% illegal, too!


People who connect generators to their panels without using a transfer switch have a special circle of hell reserved for them.

As far as I'm concerned, this thread should be locked due to COC violations - "here's how to break the law and put people's lives at stake just so you can have a fan or see a movie or whatever".

Very wrong! It is illegal all over tje US!

Danger
Illegal
No positive lock out. Human error can be a MF'r.
Did I mention Illegal.

That's stupid and usually illegal.

How many violations of the NEC can you possibly get in one post?

If it came to the attention of a locality that enforces the NEC, the home owner would be fined and forced to undo the changes.


NEC 2008 702.6 "Optional Standby Systems"
702.6 Exception: Temporary connection of a portable generator without transfer equipment shall be permitted where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation and where the normal supply is physically isolated by a lockable disconnecting means or by disconnection of the normal supply conductors.

BTW ... FWIW this exception is also in the 2005 NEC
I wouldn't advocate this unless you truly know what you're doing. But, I commend SubNet's ingenuity and frugality. I also ran my house off of a EU2000 (by being VERY selective.) No extention cords, no accidents in the dark. Wife and son briefed as to capabilities. Bonafides? (We don't need no stinkin bonafides) ... 30 years in the trade.
And I still hate when someone gets hurt OR when someone doesn't know what they're talking about.
"Special circle of Hell" ? Jeez !

Stay safe
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Well, Sub, I can see this thread is going well. All it's missing is a dog and the mailman.
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[Last Edit: 9/17/2008 2:51:35 PM by blackhawkhunter]
Here is a quote from a power companys brochure..... Heartland Power, where ever they are. How deep are your pockets?

"Everyone can remember the ice storm we experienced
this past winter. I feel it is important to bring
up a problem that some of our members experienced
and what our lineman had to watch out for when the
generators were hooked up wrong. The generators
can and will back feed power back on to the line
when they are hooked up incorrectly. When this
happens it can burn out the generator and even
worse it could kill someone. In the event that this
would happen, the liability would fall back on the
homeowner.
The wiring would not meet the code
702.6.
National
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1Bigdog
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Posted: 9/17/2008 2:52:46 PM
I predict that this will be recognized as one of the most dangerous threads in the history of Arfcom.

5 house fires and

1 lineman is going down and 6 lawsuits.
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Posted: 9/17/2008 3:17:33 PM

Originally Posted By blackhawkhunter:
Be careful pulling and placing a meter with a load on it. It can draw a pretty good arc.

Turn off all breakers before doing that.

Not saying dont do it, just saying make sure there is no load on it. Many power companies require manual bypass levers in their meter sockets for just that reason.




I have seen workers remove meters and they put on the big,huge gloves
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Posted: 9/17/2008 3:21:03 PM

Originally Posted By WayfarnStrangr:

Originally Posted By blackhawkhunter:
Be careful pulling and placing a meter with a load on it. It can draw a pretty good arc.

Turn off all breakers before doing that.

Not saying dont do it, just saying make sure there is no load on it. Many power companies require manual bypass levers in their meter sockets for just that reason.




I have seen workers remove meters and they put on the big,huge gloves


Imagine that.... and they know what they are playing with!

Of course they also have to follow company policy which is starting to push the envelope on rediculous. If you look at all the rules in place now its amazing that electricians ever lived past the age of 25.
Paddle faster, I hear banjo music!
COZ_45
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Posted: 9/17/2008 5:32:36 PM
Ok, I just got powered back on.

Prior to that, I walked out to talk with the linemen. I was curious as to why I had two bare wires to go from the street to my house where there is a transformer on the pole.
He explained that since my house is about 150 yards from the road where their power passes, you need high voltage lines.

I said cool and offered the crew some cold water and they declined and said they had plenty.

Then the guy and the gal working with him started walking with me up to the house and he asked if I was on a transfer switch as he heard the genny running.

I said "No, I have the main thrown and feeding from the generator through a dual 60 amp breaker"

He walked up into the garage and looked at it and said "As long as the main is thrown, we're cool, you should be back live in about two hours"

We then had a discussion about how dangerous the down line was in the yard as it was lying next to my neighbors steel fence and I said I wasn't going anywhere around it to clean up branches. The gal said "Very smart of you"

I then went and tied my truck to a couple of big fallen branches that were in their way to get the bucket truck in and pulled them away for them and they thanked me.

I worked on the yard for a bit and saw them splice the lines which I thought was interesting how they did that, and then I just shut down the genny and put it away.

I'm back up now. These guys were from Connecticut and had MI on their hardhats...
VIVERE PARATUS

McCain-Palin '08


krpind
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Posted: 9/17/2008 5:36:36 PM

Originally Posted By COZ_45:
he asked if I was on a transfer switch as he heard the genny running.

I said "No, I have the main thrown and feeding from the generator through a dual 60 amp breaker"

He walked up into the garage and looked at it and said "As long as the main is thrown, we're cool, you should be back live in about two hours"





I don't give a fuck who you are.....that is funny.
ARFCOM.....Time well wasted.


Originally Posted By red65:
Ask youself: What organization do libtards hate the most?

Answer: The NRA
DV8
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Posted: 9/17/2008 5:37:56 PM

Originally Posted By krpind:

Originally Posted By COZ_45:
he asked if I was on a transfer switch as he heard the genny running.

I said "No, I have the main thrown and feeding from the generator through a dual 60 amp breaker"

He walked up into the garage and looked at it and said "As long as the main is thrown, we're cool, you should be back live in about two hours"





I don't give a fuck who you are.....that is funny.


Imagine that.
Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet." Gonzo

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opti12206
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That is a nice setup. Just be very careful about breakers.
"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics." -- Thomas Sowell


كافر
Subnet
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Posted: 9/17/2008 5:40:18 PM

Originally Posted By krpind:

Originally Posted By COZ_45:
he asked if I was on a transfer switch as he heard the genny running.

I said "No, I have the main thrown and feeding from the generator through a dual 60 amp breaker"

He walked up into the garage and looked at it and said "As long as the main is thrown, we're cool, you should be back live in about two hours"





I don't give a fuck who you are.....that is funny.


Ain't that what I've been saying this whole thread?
Whoever pissed in your Cheerios swiped your manners while you were savoring the taste.-FLAL1A
GeorgiaBII
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Posted: 9/17/2008 5:40:35 PM
I've been using this very method for YEARS. If you follow the plan and the checklist exactly each time your golden.


This is not for the average homeowner that has a difficult time replacing a faucet washer...


But it's redneck approved!
This site NEEDS an ENEMA!!!
DV8
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Posted: 9/17/2008 5:41:18 PM

Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By krpind:

Originally Posted By COZ_45:
he asked if I was on a transfer switch as he heard the genny running.

I said "No, I have the main thrown and feeding from the generator through a dual 60 amp breaker"

He walked up into the garage and looked at it and said "As long as the main is thrown, we're cool, you should be back live in about two hours"





I don't give a fuck who you are.....that is funny.


Ain't that what I've been saying this whole thread?



I understood it the first time you posted.
Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet." Gonzo

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krpind
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Posted: 9/17/2008 5:46:18 PM

Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By krpind:

Originally Posted By COZ_45:
he asked if I was on a transfer switch as he heard the genny running.

I said "No, I have the main thrown and feeding from the generator through a dual 60 amp breaker"

He walked up into the garage and looked at it and said "As long as the main is thrown, we're cool, you should be back live in about two hours"





I don't give a fuck who you are.....that is funny.


Ain't that what I've been saying this whole thread?


ARFCOM.....Time well wasted.


Originally Posted By red65:
Ask youself: What organization do libtards hate the most?

Answer: The NRA
Backstop
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Posted: 9/17/2008 6:24:51 PM
[Last Edit: 9/17/2008 6:25:16 PM by Backstop]

Originally Posted By blackhawkhunter:
Also, IIRC, I quoted an excerpt from Mike Holts code interpretation and everyone shut up and the thread died right off.


I've had the same experience.

Mike Holt's place is grand.

I posted a link a few pages back.

I've generally sworn off posting in these threads.

I made an exception here for Sub.
Clinging to guns and religion since 1979.
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Posted: 9/17/2008 8:55:41 PM

Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By odontia32m:
Danger
Illegal

No positive lock out. Human error can be a MF'r.

Did I mention Illegal.

Former electrician. You might pull this off but you are giving bad advise to some who might kill a lineman or their family.


What law am I breaking? I live in Fulton County, Ohio. Unzoned.

EDIT: Cite it, chapter and verse.


Zoning has nothing to do with it. How about the national electric code. To be so smart you are an idiot. You might pull yhis off without a kid or a wife frying a lineman but shit man. Why brag to people that might not pull this off and kill someone.

You might as well brag on cheap drunk driving
Militant RN and DAV 91E2CX2
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Posted: 9/17/2008 10:48:08 PM

Originally Posted By odontia32m:

Zoning has nothing to do with it. How about the national electric code.


LOL I guess you don't know that The National Electric Code is not a law.....

All communities may adopt the latest code or may omit or ignore sections. They may even require more stringent regulations. It is their call.

HOWEVER, most cities do adopt the most recent code because it causes insurance rates to be cheaper for that city.

Do you have a reference for Sub's local jurisdiction on what code, if any, they have adopted?
ARFCOM.....Time well wasted.


Originally Posted By red65:
Ask youself: What organization do libtards hate the most?

Answer: The NRA
bsf
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Posted: 9/17/2008 11:01:14 PM
[Last Edit: 9/17/2008 11:01:28 PM by bsf]

Originally Posted By krpind:

Originally Posted By odontia32m:

Zoning has nothing to do with it. How about the national electric code.


LOL I guess you don't know that The National Electric Code is not a law.....

All communities may adopt the latest code or may omit or ignore sections. They may even require more stringent regulations. It is their call.

HOWEVER, most cities do adopt the most recent code because it causes insurance rates to be cheaper for that city.
Do you have a reference for Sub's local jurisdiction on what code, if any, they have adopted?

Do not think so. Here in Michigan, I think we are just moving to the '05 code. At least, my code update required for the 2009 licence is for '05 code.
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Posted: 9/17/2008 11:05:47 PM
[Last Edit: 9/17/2008 11:07:32 PM by krpind]

Originally Posted By bsf:

Originally Posted By krpind:

Originally Posted By odontia32m:

Zoning has nothing to do with it. How about the national electric code.


LOL I guess you don't know that The National Electric Code is not a law.....

All communities may adopt the latest code or may omit or ignore sections. They may even require more stringent regulations. It is their call.

HOWEVER, most cities do adopt the most recent code because it causes insurance rates to be cheaper for that city.
Do you have a reference for Sub's local jurisdiction on what code, if any, they have adopted?

Do not think so. Here in Michigan, I think we are just moving to the '05 code. At least, my code update required for the 2009 licence is for '05 code.


We adopted the latest code because of insurance rates. At least that is what I was told at ameeting with the city on the new codes.


ETA, what year is the latest code?

This meeting was several years ago.
ARFCOM.....Time well wasted.


Originally Posted By red65:
Ask youself: What organization do libtards hate the most?

Answer: The NRA
Metalryder
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Posted: 9/17/2008 11:57:52 PM

Originally Posted By kingfish:
Too much work! Been there, done that.

You should run a cable from your generator to your clothes dryers outlet. BEFORE you do that, switch off the main breaker at your electric box. Then, the power runs from your generator through the dryer plug to the distribution box and to all the outlets in your home. Just remember to turn the main switch off before you plug the generator in.


This is what I did when my power went out from Ike.

Just make sure you turn off the main power switch coming in.
Gooman24
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Posted: 9/18/2008 12:22:52 AM
[Last Edit: 9/18/2008 12:25:32 AM by Gooman24]

Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By pv74:
For crying out loud....You are a network engineer...not an electrician.

Get a transfer switch and have it professionally installed before you kill somone. It aint that much money.

You are wasting your time, your money and nominating yourself for a Darwin Award with your Rube Goldberg approach [://

Yep. This is easy to see if you have any respect for electricity. Interlocks and safety devices of that nature exist for a reason and body who doesn't see that should probably not touch anything more complicated than a sink faucet. I am an IT guy and I also do equipment/machine maint. for the company I work for (small company we all wear many hats) and I know enough about this to know its is simple to back feed and if someone had a gun to my head telling me to do it I would still hesitate. Guy with you talent should be smarter than this sub.



This ain't complicated, dude...


IT Guy here I also do maint. on hydraulic presses and other machinery and I know enough not to bypass any safety or interlock procedures. This shit was written cause someone can die and anyone who doesn't consider that is a shelfish fuck.


Originally Posted By Ranger689:
Why all the fuss?

I do the same thing from time to time with "no danger" to anyone.

Just because I'm not an electrician doesn't mean I don't know about electricity.

Go ahead and pay for your transfer switch, when the SHTF nobody cares.

I'm with Subnet on this deal.


Tell that to the Lineman you kill someday.

Originally Posted By twr6444:
What is really nice about the Interlock vs. a transfer switch is that you can choose which breakers you want to use on the fly. With a tranfer switch they have to be predetermined.


You are thinking of a Geny panel a transfer switch allows you to chose which breakers you want to run. It is like a giant selector switch that chooses which power source powers your breaker panel - Geny or grid.

And to the people who are comparing this to handling a gun without hurting anybody. The rules of gun safety overlap each other if you think about it you can always break 1out of 3 with out killing anybody. Where is your safety net for this. This option is for idiots and experts and I have never met an expert.

Also Paul - Blackhawk good to see a couple guys know what the fuck they are talking about hit this thread. Some scary shit going on here.
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Gooman24
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Posted: 9/18/2008 12:26:05 AM

Originally Posted By DV8:

Originally Posted By Merlin:

Originally Posted By BayEagle:
The naysayers can say what they want. When it's 95 degrees and 95% humidity in Florida, you'll make a damn 220 cable pretty quick to power up a window shaker or freezer or your kid's nebulizer for asthma.

Do some news seaches - you'll find many carbon monoxide deaths, but you won't find many house fires or electrocutions from gennies.


So, what you're saying is that it's impossible to predict that it's going to get 95 degrees and 95% humidity in FL or are you saying it's smart to not plan or to plan to fail.

This isn't rocket science. Even leaving out the 100% FAIL on having a 50 amp CB on a 10 AWG wire, planning to fail when it's easy and not really that expensive (~$250) to do it right and do it that is 100% in compliance with all electrical codes and is guaranteed to not put innocent linesmens live on the line is... STUPID.

As far as I'm concerned, this thread should be locked due to COC violations - "here's how to break the law and put people's lives at stake just so you can have a fan or see a movie or whatever".





Dumbest post of the week.


Yep your post sure is.
I reached under my seat belt and into my shorts and massaged my penis and balls for a few minutes and it came back out and felt normal. -Nutro

Proud Member of "Ranstad's Militia" - The Fantastic Bastards!

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Posted: 9/18/2008 12:37:04 AM
You could also just install a manual disconnect where the service comes in. That should solve everyone's problem cheap and easy.
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