An open switch gathers no voltage.  

:)

Quoted: You could also just install a manual disconnect where the service comes in. That should solve everyone's problem cheap and easy.

Well since that is what the main is....that won't solve this issue, because you might forget something as important as disconnecting that switch.

Keep up.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Even better show how a generator that usually have a maximum 30 amp curcuits can power up the grid. AGAIN I'm more than willing to be shown this is actually possible, just so far all we have heard is "oh noes you could kill a mofo" with zero proof that a pissant genny that won't even power up everything in your home is capable of such a feat. Sorry....I'm just very skeptical that it would be possible to powerup the grid with 30 amps. That just doesn't seem possible. 30 amps can kill ... 0.3 amps can kill. Master Chief Electrican's Mate (ret) There is no doubt about that Paul, the question is can you backfeed the grid with a 30 amp genny without tripping the genny breaker? There is no way. The amp draw on the grid is HUGE, and a little ass generator is NOT going to power it up. It simply isn't possible That’s a strawman argument.  After a storm, tornado, hurricane, earthquake, or ice storm--you know, all of the reasons your power would quit and you would connect your generator--you wouldn’t’ be backfeeding the grid because of downed lines.  It’s very common in rural areas to have only one house on a transformer.  If the line to that transformer is knocked down and you backfeed power, your little generator will have no problem supplying enough current to kill someone who touches the wires connected to high side of your transformer. I worked on machinery in a textile plant for more than twenty years and as an electrician on and off for over forty years, and dozens of times I’ve seen power backfed through a transformer that raised the voltage to even more dangerous potentials.  You don’t expect to see power on a circuit that appears to be disconnected by power so it is very easy to be caught by surprise.  I know I have.z

It's turning the electricians on and off that is the problem.  Most people here understand the concern is not powering the whole grid.  Some apparently don't understand.  It's zapping the guy just around the corner who is working on dead lines that are getting back fed by the idiot down the way.

Quoted: We adopted the latest code because of insurance rates. At least that is what I was told at ameeting with the city on the new codes. ETA, what year is the latest code? This meeting was several years ago.

2008, for the record.

The 2008 book is fugly black.

Just breezing through my notes from my lic renewal class a vew months ago, there are over 30 changes - most of them involve my day to day work.  There are more changes, but I got tired of writing, and started just annotating in the book.

Someone said they had never heard of a case where anyone had been killed by a backfeed so I came up with 4 on a quick search.....  that didnt change any minds.

Some people are just too dumb to learn anything....  and too stubborn to admit they may be wrong.

Insurance companies have a field day with people like that.  

I would hate to see some of these guys on the rifle range....  " Hey, dont worry, I can point my rifle at you....  I am smart enough not to pull the trigger until I want to"

My house has a code approved internal switch that turns off one side of the panel while it is energized by the generator.  It is a fancy name for one breaker being turned off and one being turned on.. What is the difference between this and turning off the main breaker.  All the linemen downstream are being protected by a breaker being thrown in the homeowners panel.  Seems the same to me.  This is how Palm Beach county Fl code has it, all done by an electrician and approved by the building dept.

Quoted: My house has a code approved internal switch that turns off one side of the panel while it is energized by the generator.  It is a fancy name for one breaker being turned off and one being turned on.. What is the difference between this and turning off the main breaker.  All the linemen downstream are being protected by a breaker being thrown in the homeowners panel.  Seems the same to me.  This is how Palm Beach county Fl code has it, all done by an electrician and approved by the building dept.

Your method is the idiot proof way of doing it.  There is no way your house can be energized from two sources at once.

People make mistakes, have brain cramps, operate elecrical equipment while intoxicated, or wives and kids seem to think they remember how it was done casue they saw it once....  it only takes one brain fart to kill someone.

Quoted: Quoted: Blackhawkhunter told everyone in the survival forums that I would die and my house would burn, but it has not happened because I'm not a fumbling idiot who does not understand the way it works. . IIRC that conversation was about separating grounds and neutrals correctly and I said it possible for it to happen.  I also said you can fry electronics and overheat conductors which, over time, can degrade insulation and lead to fires. Also, IIRC, I quoted an excerpt from Mike Holts code interpretation and everyone shut up and the thread died right off.

I'm sorry for calling you out. I actually had that thread deleted as every other post told me I was a fucking idiot and I'd die if I ever used my hookup etc.

I used it for 90 hours.

All was fine.

Quoted: An open switch gathers no voltage.   :)

As does a repetitious thread gather no knowledge  

Subnet we use ours the same way, just we leave ours out in the garage so we dont have to hear it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Blackhawkhunter told everyone in the survival forums that I would die and my house would burn, but it has not happened because I'm not a fumbling idiot who does not understand the way it works. . IIRC that conversation was about separating grounds and neutrals correctly and I said it possible for it to happen.  I also said you can fry electronics and overheat conductors which, over time, can degrade insulation and lead to fires. Also, IIRC, I quoted an excerpt from Mike Holts code interpretation and everyone shut up and the thread died right off. I'm sorry for calling you out. I actually had that thread deleted as every other post told me I was a fucking idiot and I'd die if I ever used my hookup etc. I used it for 90 hours. All was fine.

If I am remembering the previous thread right....  we were discussing where the bonding of the neutral and ground take place in a 3 or 4 wire system and 2-3 pole transfer switches which is a whole different subject than the issue here.  It is very important to keep grounds and neutrals seperated so they dont carry parallel currents.  I cant remmeber where you stood on that issue.  However, its not that big a deal IF you have no other issues at that moment, like ground faults or wet appliances (like you might have in a flooded area).  Even without outside effects, some electronics will fry without a good ground.  You can get away with running straight resistive loads that are in good working condition fine, but when/if you have problems the results can be serious.  Electricity is easy to make work for you.... its doing it safely that is an issue.  When you are stressed out about storm damage or pressed for time is not the right time to be working with a cobbed together backup system.

If I was to help out someone with no power I would do Subs method...  no doubt about it.  But I work with electricity all the time and it would be done while I was standing there.  Just because you (and I dont mean you personally, but you get what I mean) may not have a Masters License and I do, does not make you any dumber than me about generator hookups.  Generators are sort of a speciality and there are plenty of unlicensed installers that know more about it than many electricians because it is their speciality.

What does scare me is the people that read how someone else does it improperly and figure that they can do the same thing without understanding all the dangers.  What also scares me is the families with those set ups that think they know how to do it when the person that usually does it is not there.  They need to understand the risks of screwing up; someone may get hurt or killed, property damage can occur, insurance companies may not cover work done by a non-licensed individual, and legal liabilities can occur.

Its too bad you deleted that thread cause I had put some good diagrams in there demonstrating how to wire generators.  

Cobb together what you will, but everyone should try to work toward a correct, safe instalation someday....  you dont scrimp on firearms safety, you dont scrimp on your vehicles brakes....  dont cut corners with something else that could kill you!

ETA:  COZ.....  this rely may be confusing because part of it is directed toward you and part is a general response to Sub and the rest of the thread.  Or I may be not remembering the previous thread right in which case you will be really confused.  Hope it makes sense to you.

Quoted: What does scare me is the people that read how someone else does it improperly and figure that they can do the same thing without understanding all the dangers.  What also scares me is the families with those set ups that think they know how to do it when the person that usually does it is not there.  They need to understand the risks of screwing up; someone may get hurt or killed, property damage can occur, insurance companies may not cover work done by a non-licensed individual, and legal liabilities can occur. .

Bro do you honestly believe that anyone who is reading this thread doesn't understand the dangers of not throwing the main breaker when energizing the breaker panel with a generator?

Another, safer option:

www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm

Quoted: Quoted: What does scare me is the people that read how someone else does it improperly and figure that they can do the same thing without understanding all the dangers.  What also scares me is the families with those set ups that think they know how to do it when the person that usually does it is not there.  They need to understand the risks of screwing up; someone may get hurt or killed, property damage can occur, insurance companies may not cover work done by a non-licensed individual, and legal liabilities can occur. . Bro do you honestly believe that anyone who is reading this thread doesn't understand the dangers of not throwing the main breaker when energizing the breaker panel with a generator?

Ever see a range safety officer chew someone out for not following range rules?  Rules are made for the safety of all.....  When you are changing targets do you let your buddies reload and chamber a round while you are downrange?  Do they look thru the scopes while making adjustments while you are downrange?  Or do you want them to bench their firearms while anyone is downrange?

And remember the rule about never trusting your firearm safety?  Why is that?  Is it because it is a mechanical device and can fail?  What about human error?

You may understand your setup...  but does your wife or kid?  What happens when your kid is home alone with friends and the power goes out and he wants to impress everyone with being able to keep that game of Nintendo going?  What happens when the insurance adjuster wanders thru and sees that pigtail hanging out of your panel and they offer to drop your coverage?

Must be some awesome people here that have never had an "oops"  or "awe crap".  I know I have had my share!  

Quoted: Another, safer option: www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm

That is very interesting.

Do you have one?

How much is it?

Quoted: Quoted: Another, safer option: www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm That is very interesting. Do you have one? How much is it?

Don't have one, don't know much about it other than what I've read on the net.  I found it interesting that the utility will install it.

Quoted: Quoted: Another, safer option: www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm That is very interesting. Do you have one? How much is it?

+1

Inquiring minds want details!

[

Quoted: Inquiring minds want details!

I just called them.

$725 for the one with built-in surge protector.
$650 for the one without it.

Quoted: i186.photobucket.com/albums/x203/rexydg/249001-1.jpg

I love the gas tank stapped on top to dribble down on the ignition source !

As far as legalities, I have yet to see anyone come around checking meters after a hurricane. Your lucky if they show up before the next billing cycle.

Quoted: Quoted: Inquiring minds want details! I just called them. $725 for the one with built-in surge protector. $650 for the one without it.

Ouch!  

Seems like the power companies would co buy to give people a break and assure safe instalations....  

Oh well.

Go out in the yard and find the biggest tree limb that was blown down during the storm. Take your bolt cutters and cut the feed line to your house. Lay the limb on the ground below the spot you cut.
Now, no backfeed !  LOL !  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Inquiring minds want details! I just called them. $725 for the one with built-in surge protector. $650 for the one without it. Ouch!   Seems like the power companies would co buy to give people a break and assure safe instalations....   Oh well.

From the website......

GenerLink™ eliminates the hassles of running multiple extension cords or hiring an electrician to install an expensive transfer switch and sub-panel that limits the number of appliances you can operate.

no wonder they don't advertise their prices......

Quoted: no wonder they don't advertise their prices......

No kidding!  I knew it was two good to be reasonably priced!

Quoted: Quoted: no wonder they don't advertise their prices...... No kidding!  I knew it was two good to be reasonably priced!

I'm already doing essentially the same thing. If was maybe $100 or so, I'd go for it.

My setup.

Box $200 off ebay
Wire and supplies $100
Safety and the REMC not taking my meter priceless.

Quoted: www.otherpower.com/listeraxialflux.shtml

That's awesome can you imagine being near those heavy spinning flywheels, don't stick your finger in the spokes.  

If I ever make a homebrew generator it will start with a gas turbine engine with a exhaust heat exchanger.  Just think you can use the flaming exhaust to cook, heat, and incinerate trash and human waste.

Quoted: Quoted: If you can afford a generator you can buy a transfer switch. First smart thing in this thread so far!

Do these transfer switches isolate the neutral/ground as well?  I would hate to have an isolation switch and then get destructive voltage through the neutral via lightining or someone else backfeeding the neutral.

Is the neutral typically tied to ground at the transformer level?  Or at your main panel?

Quoted:  Is it because it is a mechanical device and can fail?

blackhawk, I totally get what you are saying.  There are a lot of chances for a mistake with the manual method.  

What about a transfer switch failure?  I know, I know, probably rare.  My point is that for a lot of people that don't understand what's going on, a black box can be more dangerous than a manual method with some training.  If it fails and everyone assumes it's good just because it's a 'safe device' and they don't have the knowledge or understanding to know it's bad, well, you get the idea.

I think taking the safest path, AND making sure that everyone in the house knows how to use the equipment, whatever the equipment is, is the best route.  Also, in case anyone forgets, making laminated signs to put in the box with simple instructions and warnings will help a lot, and costs very little.  

MSPaint or fail, right?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you can afford a generator you can buy a transfer switch. First smart thing in this thread so far! Do these transfer switches isolate the neutral/ground as well?  I would hate to have an isolation switch and then get destructive voltage through the neutral via lightining or someone else backfeeding the neutral. Is the neutral typically tied to ground at the transformer level?  Or at your main panel?

Some switch the neutral and some dont.  It depends partly on the application and also how clean you want your power to be.  Most commercial applications do switch the neutral.  Most residential do not....  but they do sell them capable of switching the neutral.  The neutral is usually switched by a larger buss so it is the last to break and the first to make in a changeover.

Grounds and neutrals are typically tied together at the first means of disconnect altho some utilities require both to be connected at the meter socket.

Quoted: What about a transfer switch failure?  I know, I know, probably rare.  My point is that for a lot of people that don't understand what's going on, a black box can be more dangerous than a manual method with some training.  If it fails and everyone assumes it's good just because it's a 'safe device' and they don't have the knowledge or understanding to know it's bad, well, you get the idea.

I have 78 automatic transfer switches where I work right now and the only faliures have been in the control part....  these switches automatically start the generator and transfer power within 7 seconds of a line failure.  Not saying the mechanical part cant fail....  but I have never heard of it and the switches are well built in that regard.

If you have a manual switch, you walk out, start the generator, maybe plug the cord in to it, and flip a lever from the label that say "Utility" to the label that says "Generator".  Thats pretty simple and foolproof.  

The other method requires training and remembering and not F-ing up.  Ever go to start your car only to find out its already running.  Not very often....  but 2-3 times in 30 years.....  coulda killed someone if that was forgeting to shut the main breaker off.  Just because you forget to shut the breaker off does not mean someone will die.... but the odds start stacking up.  Now, figure the only way to see if you have utility power back is to turn the generator off and the main back on, then, opps no power, turn the generator back on.... walk back inside and wonder, hmmmm, did I turn the main breaker off?  Do that route for a week or so and the odds build up.  Add tired, alcohol, stress and the odds build up even more.

I really like your label and that should be on everyones panel and generator that uses that method!  It works and is a crude way to do it and everyone should work toward doing it the right way!  But usually the gnerator comes first and it take a year or two to get a proper transfer switch.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you can afford a generator you can buy a transfer switch. First smart thing in this thread so far! Do these transfer switches isolate the neutral/ground as well?  I would hate to have an isolation switch and then get destructive voltage through the neutral via lightining or someone else backfeeding the neutral. Is the neutral typically tied to ground at the transformer level?  Or at your main panel? Some switch the neutral and some dont.  It depends partly on the application and also how clean you want your power to be.  Most commercial applications do switch the neutral.  Most residential do not....  but they do sell them capable of switching the neutral.  The neutral is usually switched by a larger buss so it is the last to break and the first to make in a changeover. Grounds and neutrals are typically tied together at the first means of disconnect altho some utilities require both to be connected at the meter socket.

The neutral is just the center tap on the step-down transformer correct?  

It seems that everyone is ruling out the fact that during a storm a transformer could be damaged to the extent that the primary feed is shorted to the secondary neutral.  Now imagine that happening.

Quoted: I was also an electrician.  Is this illegal?  Just curious.  I'm about to buy a transfer switch because I'm tired of the extension cords.  I'd like to have something fool-proof set up for when it's just my wife or mom around so they can do it themselves.

Did you just call you wife or mom a fool?

Quoted: It seems that everyone is ruling out the fact that during a storm a transformer could be damaged to the extent that the primary feed is shorted to the secondary neutral.  Now imagine that happening.

And there are circuit breakers on the pole that would trip and kill the power.  And if that somehow failed it would melt the wires. You don't really think you could run a dead short into the ground do you.

I was second on scene after an electrician got vaporized by an impoperly tagged out transfer bus. The flash blistered the paint on the wall behind him, except for his shadow..ugly shit. Granted, 800MW is not gonna come out of your generator, but all the same, getting zapped ain't pretty.

When we built this new house, I paid an additional 200 bucks for a built in transfer switch in the primary box.

It's simple. Flip the primary switch to off, slide the safety lock over, flip the 100amp seconday switch to on.Plug in the cord from the 30KV PTO generator(My Tractor idles at 35hp @ the PTO) flip the switch on the generator.

No fuss, no muss, nobody gets fried, zapped, or vaporized.
200 bucks.

In the old house I pretty much went old school, and pulled the meter, flipped the main to off, and ran a double ended cord from the .Mil gennie into the Welder outlet.

Anal retentive?
Yep!

I have some good buddys that are line apes.

S-28

Quoted: You don't really think you could run a dead short into the ground do you.

Absolutely.  During a storm I watched a broken electrical wire swing back and forth on a pole each time dragging on the ground.  It let off awful noises and a brillant arc.  The only reason it stop arcing was it melted all the road surface away until the wire was no longer in contact with the ground.  The wire remained live.

Isn't lightning a dead short into the ground too?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you can afford a generator you can buy a transfer switch. First smart thing in this thread so far! Do these transfer switches isolate the neutral/ground as well?  I would hate to have an isolation switch and then get destructive voltage through the neutral via lightining or someone else backfeeding the neutral. Is the neutral typically tied to ground at the transformer level?  Or at your main panel? Some switch the neutral and some dont.  It depends partly on the application and also how clean you want your power to be.  Most commercial applications do switch the neutral.  Most residential do not....  but they do sell them capable of switching the neutral.  The neutral is usually switched by a larger buss so it is the last to break and the first to make in a changeover. Grounds and neutrals are typically tied together at the first means of disconnect altho some utilities require both to be connected at the meter socket. The neutral is just the center tap on the step-down transformer correct?   It seems that everyone is ruling out the fact that during a storm a transformer could be damaged to the extent that the primary feed is shorted to the secondary neutral.  Now imagine that happening.

It is possible for transients to come in on the neutral.

And yes, the neutral is the center tap of a wye transformer.

Quoted: Quoted: It seems that everyone is ruling out the fact that during a storm a transformer could be damaged to the extent that the primary feed is shorted to the secondary neutral.  Now imagine that happening. And there are circuit breakers on the pole that would trip and kill the power.  And if that somehow failed it would melt the wires. You don't really think you could run a dead short into the ground do you.

But what if a person was the final conductor to ground?  

ETA:  and in the brief time it took for a fault to clear a significant charge would still be sent down the line.

Ever notice the power flicker during a storm?  Sometimes that is the circuit trying to reset itself.  It may try 2-3 times and if the fault clears power will stay on, if the fault does not clear it will trip out until the fault is cleared and reset.

NM the answer appeared while I was typing!

Quoted: Did any of the real electricians ever answer the question about whether a main circuit breaker or a transfer switch would allow a fault (hot to neutral) to travel back into the grid?  In other words, does a transfer switch disconnect the hot as well as the neutral?  Is it even necessary to disconnect the neutral?

A breaker or transfer switch will not let a fault back into the grid.  Some transfer switches disconnect the neutral and some do not...  it depends on the application and/or how much money you want to spend.  

The main grounding electrode will clear a fault within your house assuming the system is hooked up correctly.

ETA;  ha, beat ya to it!

Quoted: Quoted: Inquiring minds want details! I just called them. $725 for the one with built-in surge protector. $650 for the one without it.

I only payed $635 for my 8000 watt generator!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Inquiring minds want details! I just called them. $725 for the one with built-in surge protector. $650 for the one without it. I only payed $635 for my 8000 watt generator!

Yeah, no kidding!  Its a really nice idea, but way overpriced!

Its kinds like spending more on a scope than a rifle....  except I'd rather spend my money on the fun stuff!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It seems that everyone is ruling out the fact that during a storm a transformer could be damaged to the extent that the primary feed is shorted to the secondary neutral.  Now imagine that happening. And there are circuit breakers on the pole that would trip and kill the power.  And if that somehow failed it would melt the wires. You don't really think you could run a dead short into the ground do you. But what if a person was the final conductor to ground?   ETA:  and in the brief time it took for a fault to clear a significant charge would still be sent down the line. Ever notice the power flicker during a storm?  Sometimes that is the circuit trying to reset itself.  It may try 2-3 times and if the fault clears power will stay on, if the fault does not clear it will trip out until the fault is cleared and reset.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but a fault to a neutral would go to ground through the multiple locations neutral is tied to the earth before it would go through a human, as humans have a much higher resistance than the neutral connection to earth.

I think a person would only get fried in this case if he were the ONLY connection to earth of a faulted neutral.  I'm not sure how that could happen, but there may be a way.

So can we collect information and all find out where is the best deal on generators and transfer switches?  I'd like to know.

Anybody that knows of good deals, please post the details.

thanks.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It seems that everyone is ruling out the fact that during a storm a transformer could be damaged to the extent that the primary feed is shorted to the secondary neutral.  Now imagine that happening. And there are circuit breakers on the pole that would trip and kill the power.  And if that somehow failed it would melt the wires. You don't really think you could run a dead short into the ground do you. But what if a person was the final conductor to ground?   ETA:  and in the brief time it took for a fault to clear a significant charge would still be sent down the line. Ever notice the power flicker during a storm?  Sometimes that is the circuit trying to reset itself.  It may try 2-3 times and if the fault clears power will stay on, if the fault does not clear it will trip out until the fault is cleared and reset. Please correct me if I'm wrong but a fault to a neutral would go to ground through the multiple locations neutral is tied to the earth before it would go through a human, as humans have a much higher resistance than the neutral connection to earth. I think a person would only get fried in this case if he were the ONLY connection to earth of a faulted neutral.  I'm not sure how that could happen, but there may be a way.

We sort of got off track here....  the OP was talking about not usuing a tied together mechaincal transfer switch....  COZ and I were rehashing a conversation about parallel grounds and neutrals..... and then this which brings up dangling wires and stray voltage.

On this subject..... wires are normally insulated from ground and expect some load on them.  If a wire is broken it will not trip a breaker of fuse.  With a load on it....  be it a light bulb, motor, or person, it will not trip assuming we are talking exterior power lines.

Inside a residence there is one and only one place where the neutral is connected to ground.

One thing I never tried back from my condo days.... but always wanted to.... is that there is a rumor going around that if you take a 1,000 foot roll of 12-2 Romex and nut the white and black together at one one and stick the other end in a receptacle the resistance of the wire is great enough you will not trip the breaker.  Maybe they mean GE breakers....  I dont know.  Basically the resistance is so great that the wire turns into a toaster and does not draw enough inrush current to clear the fault at the breaker.

I would do a big post on the good, the bad, and the ugly way to hook up backup power systems....  but I have a feeling I would take so much flak from people wanting to argue every point that its not worth it.

OK, I know brushless is better, but my generator has brushes.

How long (hours?) do brushes generally last?  Might as well keep some on hand.

Quoted: Please correct me if I'm wrong but a fault to a neutral would go to ground through the multiple locations neutral is tied to the earth before it would go through a human, as humans have a much higher resistance than the neutral connection to earth. I think a person would only get fried in this case if he were the ONLY connection to earth of a faulted neutral.  I'm not sure how that could happen, but there may be a way.

I'd say Murphy's Law.  During and/or after a severe storm that causes damages can you count on all the grounds still be present to protect you?  What if the wire attached to your grounded rod broke off because a tree fell on it?

Quoted: I would do a big post on the good, the bad, and the ugly way to hook up backup power systems....  but I have a feeling I would take so much flak from people wanting to argue every point that its not worth it.

If you are indeed a qualified and experienced electrician I would think the post you mention would be worthwhile.  It would be nice to know the correct way to wire in a secondary power source to the house.