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Posted: 12/6/2001 9:08:32 AM EDT
[#1]
Effort and skill are the factors that make art truely valueable. Anyone can burn time by contemplating the complexities of a can of crap (or the canvas equivalent) but seeing a painting (the Sistine Chapel for instance) and noting the detail, skill, and effort, that makes art. On earth today there may be no one capable of executing the like again and in that is value. Approximately six billion people alive today could crap in a can and due to natural economy that is what a can of crap is worth.
I will admit that the definition of art may include setting up a canvas in front of a fan and pissing into said fan, but the value should be levied accordingly. Planerench out. |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 9:08:43 AM EDT
[#2]
Not bad EricM, reminds me of this style:
[img]http://www.artseensoho.com/Art/GAGOSIAN/salle99/salleGIFS/salle2.jpeg[/img] |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 9:14:45 AM EDT
[#3]
After Jeff Koons made the "Vacuums", he started to make work, that directly addressed those who insist that [b]"Effort and skill are the factors that make art truly valuable"[/b].
So his work changed. he used precious materials and employed skilled artisans (as did the great Masters) to make his new series of works. Here's one: [img]http://www.shareholder.com/bid/News/BID0412_01.gif[/img] Do you like it? It fits your criteria... |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 9:23:05 AM EDT
[#4]
As art, heck yeah it is more valueable than a case of vacuums (depending on the retail value of vacuums multiplied by the number of vacuums in the case), but I think it has a deeper meaning. The "artist" who was nuts enough to put vacuums in a case, call it art and take credit for such is just as lacking as an artist when trying to accomplish anything of beauty or value. A person with no bladder control is going to wet himself whether he is in a cave or in the Taj Mahal. Planerench out.
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Posted: 12/6/2001 9:25:54 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Kitsch? This is kitsch: [img]http://jeffwilkie.com/shop/images/IT18_CMyDocumentsMyWebswilkiethcave_explorers.JPG[/img] You think there's no challenge to the viewer here? Take another look: "Cave Explorers" turns the paradigms of Western thought on their ear. In it, the artist confronts the viewer's prejudices and inspires a profound self-examination that deconstructs the very concept of art. The cave itself is a paradox: it is both a reference to Plato's allegory of the cave and the rationalistic, male-dominated traditions of Western thought, but also a wet, round symbol of the Earth mother's primal opening. The gray torpedos of the dolphins that dominate the center of the piece represent the stifling phallocentrism of the Eurocentric male power stucture. Beneath them, a diversity of brightly-tinted fish and coral symbolize the people of color who've been cast into marginal roles yet maintain their vitality. The two groups reveal a striking dynamic of power and class struggle in post-modern society. Finally, the eye is drawn to the light at the top of the painting. Does it represent the dawning of a new age, or the flash of a thermonuclear apocalypse? |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 9:29:01 AM EDT
[#6]
Ok, that is art, but I ain't buying a really nice sculpture of Jacko playing with his monkey.
It has a cartoonish unrealistic feel, kinda like Hillary Clinton. I bet there were sword-owning conservatives that complained about the price the church paid for their ceiling, but at least it was worth it. |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 9:29:13 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: [img]http://www.shareholder.com/bid/News/BID0412_01.gif[/img] Do you like it? It fits your criteria... Actually, it looks like 2 members of the Dresden/Meissen monkey band porcelains, only a bit more gilding ;) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1305685282 |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 9:31:25 AM EDT
[#8]
True, the monkey sculpture sold for 3 million, and the vacuums only for a tenth of that.
Their monetary values have NOTHING to do with the skills employed, or the materials used. Example... This urinal sold for $1.7 Million: [img]http://www.sfmoma.org/images/ma/collections/recent_detail/duchamp_fountain.jpg[/img] It's worth it. |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 9:37:46 AM EDT
[#9]
Renamed,
That was very intellectual, but I think the artist was more into the "its got dolphins, chicks like dolphins" train of thought. It could also symbolize the afterlife and the journey there, or maybe even modern religion where it is spacially organized from top to bottom reprensenting the colorful and flashy yet untrue, the Light of Truth breaking through modern values and walls built to protect the average self's worth. Its all in how good somebody can interpret it. |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 9:43:58 AM EDT
[#10]
The emperor has no clothes.
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Posted: 12/6/2001 9:48:20 AM EDT
[#11]
I see them.
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Posted: 12/6/2001 9:55:24 AM EDT
[#12]
The Jackson & Monkey sculpture is art. Ugly art, but art nonetheless... It is certainly more worthy to be termed art than a can of shit.
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Posted: 12/6/2001 10:05:43 AM EDT
[#13]
Koons, obviously, was making fun of his planerench-style critics with the Michael Jackson sculpture. What makes it all the more amusing is when the people who are the butt of the joke don't get it.
The Sistine Chapel ceiling as been cited here repeatedly as an example of "real" art. How about one of you art critics who have poo-pooed (deliberate choice of words) modern and post-modern art explain, to the best of your ability, why you think the Sistine Chapel is "real" art and the Pollock canvas Major Murphy posted isn't. Major Murphy has done his best to explain art to you 9an excellent job, too), and I've tried to a much lesser extent but the replies have run mainly to "Nossir, I don't like it." Remember, "I can't explain ______, but I know it when I see it" was a cop-out for pornography and will be considered one for art, as well. |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 10:09:50 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Art, it was explained to me by an art major, is anything made by a human with the intent of provoking an emotional or intellectual reaction. Note that being "beautiful" isn't necessarily a factor. At the time, I thought that sounded kind of bullshyttey, but with time and maturity I have come to see that she was absolutely right. Major Murphy is correct, canned shytte is the lineal descendant of the Sistine Chapel frescoes. ...and Thusly, the combat knives that I make, as well as being useful for their intended task, should by definition invoke the emotional response known as "Fear", and be considered art. Now, to find someone to pay me $25K for a knife (work of art)... Don Out "Murphwande is the Eternal Light of the Universe" |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 10:13:05 AM EDT
[#15]
11H1P,
Did you see my post on the previous page? Do you have a website? |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 10:22:42 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: 11H1P, Did you see my post on the previous page? Do you have a website? Yep, saw the post- nice grind lines!!! No website yet, have to wait until I ship back to Basic Training 14 Jan. to afford a digital camera. I'll try to bum a camera and get a pic of my 1st knife (The one I will carry on my LBE for the next 16-26 years). Assymetrical dagger-type, 52100, forged to shape, a little finish grinding, hand finished to 800 grit satin. Has brown linen micarta scales for the handle. Don Out |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 10:26:40 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: In my opinion, these three men are the most important artists of the 20th Century: 1. [b]Marcel DuChamp...[/b] [img]http://www.sfmoma.org/images/ma/collections/recent_detail/duchamp_fountain.jpg[/img] "Fountain", 1917, urinal. Hey Major-Murphy, if I remember my art history correctly, it was DuChamp who started this whole movement. He started it as an affront to the artistic community and it turned into the Dada movement much to his chagrin. When I was at the MOMA with my wife last year, whose an artist and art history major, I was pleased to hear her bad mouth some of the pieces that where on displayed. Her impression of them was that they where literally "garbage". Now we've had that garbage vs. art argument many times and I was very surprised to hear her voice such an opnion. |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 10:29:16 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: If one's concept and execution and intent is sound, it is art. You might not like it, but it is. You might think it's stupid, but it's not. Anyone who can sell a small can of their shit for $25,000 isn't stupid. The funny thing is, that if you know the art market, the buyer's not stupid, either. It may or may not be a sound investment but It sure says a lot about what's wrong with this world. The "value" of such things is set by the probability of there being someone richer and more stupid than the last guy that bought it. Lets see... Tin can filled with 30 grams of shit = $24,425 Liberty, freedom, honor, character = nothing Doesn't give me much hope for the future. |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 10:29:29 AM EDT
[#19]
Post Modern ideas, like those of Warhol, are behind the developement of "sampling" in music, and countless other areas (photoshop!). The thought that Andy Warhol assisted the rise of rap music leads to the wish that Valerie Solanas had used a bigger gun. [pistol] |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 10:37:11 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Quoted: Art, it was explained to me by an art major, is anything made by a human with the intent of provoking an emotional or intellectual reaction. Note that being "beautiful" isn't necessarily a factor. At the time, I thought that sounded kind of bullshyttey, but with time and maturity I have come to see that she was absolutely right. Major Murphy is correct, canned shytte is the lineal descendant of the Sistine Chapel frescoes. ...and Thusly, the combat knives that I make, as well as being useful for their intended task, should by definition invoke the emotional response known as "Fear", and be considered art. Now, to find someone to pay me $25K for a knife (work of art)... Don Out "Murphwande is the Eternal Light of the Universe" It isn't out of the question that it should happen. Knives by Scagel, Loveless and others command [b]huge[/b] figures. The trick is to get your work out and get it recognized. Artists who are appreciated in their own lifetimes are masters of two arts, one of them being the art of self-promotion. Of course, your duties in Murphwanda must come first... |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 10:46:34 AM EDT
[#21]
11H1P,
You could definitely make a grand for knives, look at Walter Brend, Mick Strider, Duane Dwyer, and just about any guy on Knifeart.com. Keep it up, knife making is dying out, even with the surge of new knife makers. |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 10:51:48 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Also, for those who look at a work and think "anybody could do that!", why didn't you do it, then? I do - more than once a day. For that matter, so does my dog. Does that mean it's worth anything? Is it art? No. Does it take ANY talent to shit or to beat off into a jar? Of course not. Car wrecks inspire reaction yet they are not art. Objects like this are not valuable because they are creative or thought-provoking. They become valuable only because rich, sycophantic in-duh-viduals will do anything to create their illusion of elitism. |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 10:59:18 AM EDT
[#23]
I don't. they're pretty, but not challenging in any way. Not for the artist and not for the viewer. It's decoration, illustration. They're shit. Art should be more than just a soothing image to decorate the space above your couch. And can-o-chit is "challenging?" |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 11:03:22 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Ah, but those images [b]did[/b] evoke an emotional response from you, ergo, they're art. [:)] Hmmm... So does Hillary Clinton. She must be art! So do Chuckie Schumer and the Brady Bunch, THEY must be art! OK, I got it now. |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 11:12:45 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Why do you think that all of the museums of the world, all of the contemporary galleries,all of the great thinkers, all of the universities, all of the publishers, critics and artists, support "Modern", or contemporary art? Simple - it beats working for a living. |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 11:15:34 AM EDT
[#26]
Golgo & Ice,
I have a few out there. Mostly for buddies in the SF community (just sent my first completed cable damascus combat knife to an E-9 friend for his SF Reserve callup). I don't have the grinding down as well as some, and do a lot of hand-finishing. I actually prefer a more smooth appearance than most, therefore I don't put razor-crisp transitions, and you won't find a truly straight line anywhere. I prefer the cutting of a slightly convex edge, and have never really played with hollow-ground edges. One thing about being a somewhat talented artist long before being a knifemaker is ease of design, and the ability to adapt to what the steel wants to do. Don Out |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 11:20:20 AM EDT
[#27]
That does help. As to straight lines, sometimes flowing is better.
[img]http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/images/vanlovetf1subhilt.jpg[/img] Sure it has some straight lines, but it is sweet. Pic from [url]http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/lovetf.htm[/url] Schuyler Lovestrand fighter. |
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Posted: 12/6/2001 11:22:22 AM EDT
[#28]
Ice, look closely. No straight lines. A straight line just HOWLS at you "Look at ME!" Very nice stuff there.
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