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Posted: 12/3/2001 7:32:57 PM EDT
In the interest of a new topic that I don't think I've seen before, What say you? You have big fat blob or huge ripped "The Rock" sized roid freak rapidly incoming at you with some sort of weapon, lets say you're backed into a corner 'cause neither variety can move very quick and you should just turn and run if you had the opportunity. Would a really thick layer of fat stop penetration before reaching vitals better or worse than a really thick layer of abdominal muscle? Would it even hurt the fatty? What about the muscle guy, would it hurt him worse (painwise anyway) than the average person (more there to shred) Should you aim higher than center mass like breast-plate if you have a round that you are confident can penetrate thick bone like that? .32acp I don't think would. It's late, I'm bored but there doens't seem to be any "new" topics lately so I came up with some off the wall shiat. no offense to any fattys or huge roid freaks [;D]
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 7:37:46 PM EDT
I think that since this is AR15.com, this would be a non-issue with Mr. Fatty or The Rock. As they say ".223 holes make instant souls." If this were Kel-Tec P32.com, then I would say that we might have a problem. Always remember what your daddy taught you about fighting big guys. They always have bad knees. So, when the slide on the .32 locks back and he is still coming, an angle kick to the outside of his left knee, he should scream like a 6 year old girl and drop. In theory....
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 8:45:20 PM EDT
double tap.......... practice,practice,pratice or the mozambique drill......... practice,practice,practice boxer
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 8:51:46 PM EDT
Two to the chest and one to the head. medcop
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 8:54:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 9:25:02 PM EDT
I love my Kel-Tec .32. But....if he's still up after 8 rounds from my .45 I might make a run for my M-4.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 9:45:03 PM EDT
Remember Biggie Smalls, a.k.a. Notorious B.I.G., the rapper who was shot a few years back. Well he was killed by four 9mm entrance wounds to the chest. The shots fired at an upward angle, because the perp's car was lower than the Suburban Biggie was in. Some of the shots went through the door and continued into their target, apparently. Now, if you know who this guy is, you know that he was very obese.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 10:45:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 9:23:46 AM EDT
I practice two to the chest, then one to the head. I don't think fatty boy or the ROCK are going to survive that....
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 9:35:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 9:38:42 AM EDT
Even on a very obese person, the distance from cranium to skin is relatively short in the forehead area. [:D]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 9:39:53 AM EDT
this whole thread freaks me out.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 9:43:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 9:56:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2001 9:48:26 AM EDT by soylentgreen]
With an AR, I don't think body type much matters (other than the fact that "fatty" is likely an easier target to hit). Dead is dead.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:03:56 AM EDT
I have read an account of a gunfight between a grossly obese man armed with an NAA .22 Mini and a police officer armed with a full-sized .357 Magnum revolver. The cop hit the bad guy four times in center mass but none of the bullets penetrated far enough to cause a fatal or rapidly incapacitating wound. The bad guy hit the cop in a "lucky" spot and killed him. Just FYI.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:12:02 AM EDT
One of my instructors in college when I was a criminal justice major was a cop in San Antonio for 20yrs before he started teaching and he had some good real life stories to tell. He told us once of a call he responded to where a really really fat guy had been shot 9 times in the chest with a particular handgun round, that I won't mention here and start another caliber war, and was ready to give a statement to my instructor and his partner when they arrived on scene. He later went to the hospital to have the slugs removed from his chest. My instructor said he just had a bunch of bleeding holes in his shirt in his chest and stomach area and didn't appear to be in a lot of pain. So I would have to say that if a huge Sumo wrestler type guy is running you down then you are severly out of shape and that headshots would probably be your best bet, unless you just want to kneecap the guy. Michael
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:15:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: Don't you want the "skinny" on this subject? [:D]
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no, i just want to know why they're gunning for me! seriously, i saw a video of an ex-cop who told a story of him putting 6 rounds of .38 into a fat-fatty's face ~ thinking he killed the perp, he went about his business. then the perp stood up! and asked the police if they had a tissue! the cop (damn memory! i can't remember his name) was so scared he instinctively began squeezing the trigger of his revolver. problem was, the revolver wasn't in his hands! things calmed down after the guy was subdued, they gave him a tissue, and he blew a .38 slug from his nose!
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:44:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 11:44:27 AM EDT
Standard failure to stop drill: Two to center of mass; If they fail, two to the head; If they fail, two to the pelvic girdle. Repeat until the aggressive action stops. The pelvic girdle shots are "last ditch." Since your other fire is ineffective, the pelvic girdle shots are your attempt to mechanically disable your opponent and take away their ability to walk. If you break your assailants hipbone, regardless of how strong/crazed/stoned they are, they will lose the ability to stand upright or walk.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 11:44:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By brouhaha: I saw a "Cops" episode where this big, BIG black guy was shot several times by a .22 during a drive by. He lifted up his shirt to show the camera, and there were just several welts. Must be nice to be bulletproof...
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Was he the same one who said "yah i've even been shot by a 9mm before no problem" if so thats what got me thinking about this. I might start carrying twinkies or zit-cream with me to try and appease either of those types if I'm only carrying my .32 at the time. It's decmeber 4th and today's a no jacket warm day
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 11:57:38 AM EDT
Um Im with Natez - shoot 'til they're down.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 11:57:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 12:18:19 PM EDT
I used to know a man here in Phoenix who was shot SEVEN times at close range(inside his own house) with a .45 ( shooter reloaded while chasing him). All seven where hits. The shooter, who shall remain nameless, chased him around inside the house and out to the yard before he scrambled over the fence to the neighbors. When the paramedics in the ambulance heard that they were responding to a man shot seven times, they shut off their siren and lights - they figured DOA. The paramedics finally arrived they found him sitting up on the couch bleeding but conscious and talking. After he recovered, I saw him again and actually saw each bullet wound ( you could count the entry & exit wounds.) Obviously no critical organs were hit - but, hell - SEVEN hits with a .45 and the still scrambled over a 6foot block wall! It all comes down to "product placement".
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 12:37:51 PM EDT
It's exactly as natez put it. Two to center mass. Why? Because you want to injure the bastard's heart/lungs and shut him down before he can harm you, not to mention that it's a good sized target that should be easier to hit, especially under stresss. Most big guys, like me, are big around the middle, and you shouldn't be shooting their anyway because there's very little chance you'll do enough damage that you'll actually stop him. Two to head: Why? Shut down the CPU of the operation. Even doped up crackheads/pcp freaks can't operate when the brain shuts down. But it's a hard target to hit, even if he's dead center in front of you and not at an angle. Two to pelvic area: Natez already explained it. Let me ask this question though. How many of you guys actually [b]practice[/b] for defense? It's one thing to put holes in a paper target at 7yds at the range, but another to put holes in a live target at 7yds under stress, from cover, and/or at an angle to you (not perpendicular like so many of us practice). God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 12:48:11 PM EDT
High velocity FMJ rifle bullets don't get nasty until they penetrate and slow down. After about 12-14" they begin their famous tumble and fracture. Really nasty. Fat-boy down.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 1:18:02 PM EDT
I'm with God Bless Texas. However, I am 6'1" 280 +. I'm guessing a good shot to the right area is gonna take a lung out, an important artery(aren't they all important?), or the heart. I guess adrenaline could make you keep up for a while, but when you lose blood and/or oxygen supply to the brain, you should go down. However, I think a Hydra-Shok .45 should do the trick rather than the FMJ someone mentioned. FMJ's might travel through at close range and only do bullet track damages. If you double tap the chest and he gets close enough to grab you, it would seem that you might be able to double tap the cranium or a knee and take him down then. Of course, I ain't 5'6" so, I might be less intimidated, though, I doubt it. I'd probably be screaming "Why won't you die?!?!?!?!"
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 1:23:03 PM EDT
"Even on a very obese person, the distance from cranium to skin is relatively short in the forehead area." ROFL
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 1:31:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By brouhaha: I saw a "Cops" episode where this big, BIG black guy was shot several times by a .22 during a drive by. He lifted up his shirt to show the camera, and there were just several welts. Must be nice to be bulletproof...
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Yeah, right. And we all know that everything on COPS is real, eh?
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 1:42:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SinistralRifleman: The Mall Ninja would reccomend dumping the entire mag from your HK-51 into him then, have your snipers with .338 lapua take down rifles go for a headshot.
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Geeze if ya did that, how ya gonna ID him?
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 1:43:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GodBlessTexas: It's one thing to put holes in a paper target at 7yds at the range, but another to put holes in a live target at 7yds under stress, from cover, and/or at an angle to you (not perpendicular like so many of us practice). God Bless Texas
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My problem is locating LIVE targets to use for practice. However... I just let my imagination run wild and use this technique: I run through the woods near my home screaming and crying while firing blindly over my shoulder. It is very effective, I always feel better once I catch my breath. To vary the technique, and to add to its realism I try to use each of the following phrases: "Oh Gawd, don't hurt me!" "Mommy! Mommy!" "Wahaha! Noooo!" I have offered to teach the technique to others, but it must be too advanced for them, they decline. Scared to learn new things I guess? TheRedGoat/Baphomet
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 1:45:54 PM EDT
Hmmmmm you said REALLY FAT....Hmmmmm Maybe its time to pull out the MINI-GUNS?
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 1:54:57 PM EDT
NATEZ summed it up, if a perp. fails to go down, you want to initiate a failure drill, 2 to chest and 1 to head, or 2 to chest and 2 or 3 to the pelvic girdle. Try and hit at the top of the femur where it meets the hip socket, basically right where a persons jean pcoket would be in the front. This will inhibit movement and possibly hit the femoral artery. No matter huch much PCP, alcohol or body armor, this should stop the threat. That's what you are looking to do: Stop the threat. Practice this drill with life sized targets. Try delivering a double tap hammer, one sight picture and 2 rounds fired and see how well you do. You can always practice with a controlled pair first but try and get the hammer technique down also. You want to be fast, but more importantly accurate.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 2:00:01 PM EDT
That's why I carry a "New York Reload" (spare ankle gun) in conjunction to my under the shirt.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 2:34:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fatty: this whole thread freaks me out.
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BAWHAHAHA! Thanks for a good laugh on a Tuesday night. As far as laying down unarmored people with an AR-15/AK/whatever type of rifle, I think that shouldn't be a problem. As someone above said that might be an issue with certain types of pistol ammo, but < 25 yards in with HP/JHP/whatever .223 will leave some big holes.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 2:46:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2001 3:53:52 AM EDT by SgtKiwi]
Originally Posted By Renamed: I have read an account of a gunfight between a grossly obese man armed with an NAA .22 Mini and a police officer armed with a full-sized .357 Magnum revolver. The cop hit the bad guy four times in center mass but none of the bullets penetrated far enough to cause a fatal or rapidly incapacitating wound. The bad guy hit the cop in a "lucky" spot and killed him. Just FYI.
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I've seen this video as filmed from the troopers car in several training sessions. It was a S.C. Trooper on I-95 in the early 90's. The "fat guy" fired a couple of shots from his NAA mini, one hit the Trooper in the arm, struck the bone, and ricocheted (sp) through his chest, striking him in the heart. Before he went down, the trooper radioed for help and returned fire from his .357, striking the fat guy 5 times center mass, which didn't penetrate past the fat. Side Note** The fat guy wound up wailing in pain in the ditch (out of sight), while the trooper was laid in front of the suspect's vehicle (in the light of the headlights). Two passing truckers who witnessed the shooting stopped, grabbed firearms from their trucks, and went to help. when the first back-up unit arrived, he found two armed men standing over a dead trooper. I only say this to allow you to think of what you might need to do if found in a similar situation someday.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 2:53:07 PM EDT
I once saw a 400 pound gorilla man get hit in the cajones with a LAW rocket! It bounced off and he turned around to crap out some Tiffany cufflinks. They were real Silver! Great sasquach stories guys...
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 3:10:39 PM EDT
I’m closer in size to the “assailant” in this scenario than I want to be, but my policy with folks my size or bigger (I wear a 58 coat) is the same as those of any size – COM then a central nervous system shot if that doesn’t work. As a side note, don’t plan on a BIG BIG guy being slow at close range. We may have a bit of problem changing direction, but we can cover short distances (20 feet or so) about as fast as our svelte brothers.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 3:36:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2001 3:32:00 PM EDT by sopmodm4]
You have big fat blob or huge ripped "The Rock" sized roid freak rapidly incoming at you with some sort of weapon, lets say you're backed into a corner 'cause neither variety can move very quick and you should just turn and run if you had the opportunity. Well it looks like you would already be dead based on the assumption that neither of those phenotype can move fast."Fridge" Perry of the Chicagop Bears was indeed a fatty but even though he was considered slow by NFL standards was most likely half again as fast as you are within 100yds, as well as the idea of super muscular steroid freaks many of whom happen to be football players and even track and field atheletes.Ben Johnson is a prime example.He weighed over 220lbs when he set a (drug assisted) world sprinting record that is still the fastest a human has ever run.If either type of fellow was your intended target your lack of knowdlege just got you obliterated by someone very large and strong at H2H range. -------------------------------------------- Would a really thick layer of fat stop penetration before reaching vitals better or worse than a really thick layer of abdominal muscle? Fat won't stop the bullet,muscle will.A muscular security guard was shot in the abs and chest at point blank range while on duty at Bannister Mall in KCMO in the early 90s.None of them made it to the vitals.He said that when he knew he was going to be shot he tightened up and that stopped five .380ACP rounds at point blank range. --------------------------------------------- Would it even hurt the fatty? That depends.Many big,big,fat guys have more muscle under all of that fat than a pro football player.I knew a guy when I was a teenager who was over 400lbs.He lost all of the weight and he just happened to be built like a body builder underneath.I guess it was from carrying all of that weight for so long but that guy would have been more resistant than even a muscular guy that had the same muscle mass. --------------------------------------------- What about the muscle guy, would it hurt him worse (painwise anyway) than the average person (more there to shred) Any athlete will have a higher pain tolerance than any mere mortal.He is used to experiencing more self inflicted pain than you are capable of imagining unless you have been in a car wreck or are a burn victim. --------------------------------------------- Should you aim higher than center mass like breast-plate if you have a round that you are confident can penetrate thick bone like that? .32acp I don't think would. Aim for the head and neck.Saturate the target.I would suggest that if you are to oppose enemies over 250lbs that you aquire a more powerful weapon with which to defend yourself.Otherwise you will get "buttholed" by Andre the Giant in short order. ----------------------------------------------- It's late, I'm bored but there doens't seem to be any "new" topics lately so I came up with some off the wall shiat. no offense to any fattys or huge roid freaks [;D]
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That M4 will go a lot further towards stopping a charging BG than any pistol you could choose.I would also propose that a regular steroid user has more drive and physical stamina than a normal human with the same physiology.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 4:49:25 PM EDT
That M4 will go a lot further towards stopping a charging BG than any pistol you could choose.I would also propose that a regular steroid user has more drive and physical stamina than a normal human with the same physiology.
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I think I would rather have my Remington 870 if the bad guy was in close. 00 or a slug will do a number on even a fairly large beast up close (large deer, elk, etc.). If I had to choose a handgun, I'd probably go with a .357 and a good defensive load. Regardless of the weapon, I think accuracy would carry the day. A .32 to the chest is better than a .44 in the wall.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 6:37:29 PM EDT
It all comes down to this: nothing handheld is going to be 100% reliable 100% of the time. As to the issue of high velocity rifle rounds not doing any real damage until they penetrate and slow down, this is what I believe: that any projectile traveling higher than 2800 fps is going to cause hydrostatic shock to the surrounding tissue as it passes through. The permanent wound channel is huge. There's alot more to a .223 than just a .22 caliber entrance hole and the damage done by any tumbling that may occur. LE6920 is absolutely correct: we shoot to stop the threat, not kill Fatty. As soon as he drops his gun or stops advancing to crush you in a bear hug, he is no longer earning BB's.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 6:45:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 7:11:29 PM EDT
Yes.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 4:04:01 AM EDT
[url]http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=420[/url] The Officer Down Memorial Page remembers... Trooper Mark Hunter Coates South Carolina Highway Patrol, SC Cause of Death: Gunfire End of Watch: November 20, 1992 Date of Incident: November 20, 1992 Age: 31 Tour of Duty: Not available Suspect Info: Sentenced to life Weapon Used: Handgun; .22 caliber Trooper Coates was shot and killed after stopping a car for weaving in traffic on I-95 near the Georgia border. During the traffic stop the suspect opened fired with a .22 caliber handgun. The first shot struck Trooper Coates in the vest and knocked him to the ground. While on the ground, Trooper Coates returned fire, striking the suspect five times in the chest with his .357 caliber revolver. As he retreated for cover the suspect fired another shot. The round struck Trooper Coates in the left armpit and traveled into his heart. The suspect survived the incident and was sentenced to life in prision. Trooper Coates was survived by his wife and four children.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 4:14:27 AM EDT
and another... [url]http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm[/url] In November 1992, South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates shot an attacker four times in the torso with his 4 inch Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. His attacker, an obese adult male who weighed almost 300 pounds, absorbed the hits and shortly thereafter returned fire with one shot from a single-action North American Arms .22 caliber mini-revolver. Coates was fatally wounded when the tiny bullet perforated his left upper arm and penetrated his chest through the armhole of his vest where the bullet cut a major artery. Coates, who was standing next to the passenger-side front fender of the assailant's car when he was hit by the fatal bullet, was very quickly incapacitated. The slaying was recorded by the video camera mounted in Coates' cruiser. For our law enforcement readers, a copy of the video was obtained by Calibre Press a few months after the shooting, and is shown at their Street Survival seminar. Frames from the video are published on page 238 of the Calibre Press book, Tactics for Criminal Patrol. (The Coates shooting is also presented in detail on pages 239-240.) After Coates was hit, he immediately ran several feet, scrambling around the front of the assailant's car while simultaneously radioing dispatch that he'd been shot. As he neared the driver's-side front fender he suddenly collapsed onto the pavement. Trooper Coates fired four 145 grain Winchester Silvertip .357 Magnum bullets directly into his assailant's heavy abdomen, achieving solid hits with each. These particular bullets penetrate deeper than 125 grain JHPs, however none ruptured any vital cardiovascular structures. During the initial ground struggle, Coates was shot twice, but his vest protected him. After fighting off his attacker, Coates quickly climbed to his feet and emptied his revolver. At that particular moment the assailant was still lying on the ground. The combination of the assailant's obesity and the unusual angle at which the bullets entered his body worked to the disadvantage of Trooper Coates. The Coates shooting exemplifies the fable of energy transfer, especially when encountering a determined attacker. The .357 Magnum cartridge is regarded by many as the ultimate manstopper; a true one-shot stop wonder. The Winchester 145 grain .357 Magnum cartridge is given a one-shot stopping power rating of 86 percent by Marshall and Sanow. According to this rating system, a single hit ANYWHERE in the torso is supposed to be highly effective in stopping an attacker, regardless of whether or not the bullet destroys vital tissue. But on this night, it failed FOUR TIMES! The assailant easily absorbed four bullets in his body, each delivering over 450 foot pounds of kinetic energy. This is equivalent to being hit four times by a baseball going approximately 210 miles per hour. None of Coates' powerful .357 Magnum bullets were effective, but the bad guy's weak .22 caliber bullet was. The .357 Magnum bullets dumped all their energy into the attacker, whereas the single .22 caliber bullet disrupted vital tissue. The assailant survived the shooting, was convicted of murdering Coates and was sentenced to life in prison.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 4:24:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2002 4:36:03 AM EDT by Derek45]
My Kel-tec .32ACP would whop there ass ! [whacko][whacko][whacko][whacko] 'nuff said! [img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/003/20/Pr/Db/zc40672.jpg[/img] [size=5]just kidding[/size=5]
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 8:08:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Maddock: I’m closer in size to the “assailant” in this scenario than I want to be, but my policy with folks my size or bigger (I wear a 58 coat) is the same as those of any size – COM then a central nervous system shot if that doesn’t work. As a side note, don’t plan on a BIG BIG guy being slow at close range. We may have a bit of problem changing direction, but we can cover short distances (20 feet or so) about as fast as our svelte brothers.
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This is true. As a teenager, I was ~5'-10" ft, 165 lbs. My dad was ~6 ft, 295 lbs. Let me just say that on several heated occasions I thought I was safe to speak my mind because he was on the couch and over 10 feet away. Well I was incorrect.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 8:26:11 PM EDT
IIRC, the old army live animal tests seem to indicate that, for rifle bullets anyway, fatty tissue and especially stomach contents could make a large difference in the terminal ballistics. Basically the more hydro in the system, the more hydrostatic shock does. It might also explain why punching .22 holes in a bag of bones might not put them down right away. Perhaps the rounds used by either side in the Mogadishu conflict would have been more appropriate for their intended targets if they had been swapped.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 8:34:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By boxer_64: ...or the mozambique drill......... practice,practice,practice boxer
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and that would be?
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 8:47:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 8:57:55 PM EDT
I didnt think I was that old [;D]. Thanx for the help!
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 9:58:07 PM EDT
Like Peter Venkman said in Ghostbusters, "[b][size=2][red]Aim for the flat top![/red][/size=2][/b]" coyote3
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