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Posted: 12/3/2001 12:04:37 PM EDT
No suprprise it's New York City A member of the Manhattan school board in New York City feels forcing schools to begin the day with the [b]Pledge of Allegiance is no different than the Taliban forcing kids to recite the Koran,[/b] reports the New York Daily News. Board member Larry Sauer and his colleagues on the board [b]voted to ignore[/b] a Board of Education edict that requires all schools in the city to begin the day with the Pledge of Allegiance. They want individual schools to be able to decide whether to do so or not. "Requiring students to blindly repeat the pledge is no different than the Taliban requiring children to memorize the Koran and repeat it by rote, without understanding why or what they are saying," Sauer said. [b] What a bunch of idiots - THEY sould be educating the children as to what the Pledge Of Allegiance, Constitution, Bill Of Rights, ect... means.[/b] I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. The flag is the symbol of our national unity, our national endeavor, our national aspiration. The flag tells of the struggle for independence, of union preserved, of liberty and union one and inseparable, of the sacrifices of brave men and women to whom the ideals and honor of this nation have been dearer than life. It means America first; it means an undivided allegiance. It means America united, strong and efficient, equal to her tasks. It means that you cannot be saved by the valor and devotion of your ancestors, that to each generation comes its patriotic duty; and that upon your willingness to sacrifice and endure as those before you have sacrificed and endured rests the national hope. It speaks of equal rights, of the inspiration of free institutions exemplified and vindicated, of liberty under law intelligently conceived and impartially administrated. There is not a thread in it but scorns self-indulgence, weakness, and rapacity. It is eloquent of our community interests, outweighing all divergencies of opinion, and of our common destiny.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 12:22:39 PM EDT
Maybe we could come up with a more acceptable substitute for them. "I pledge allegiance, to Liberal mind-control, and to the Socialist Cult for which it stands, One World Government, against individuality, with libertine Atheism for all."
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 12:54:59 PM EDT
Where in the pledge of allegiance does it say anything about pigs? Michael
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 12:58:07 PM EDT
We, the sensible of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid any more riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior and secure the blessings of debt-free liberty to ourselves and our great-great-great grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt-ridden delusional, and other liberal, commie, pinko bedwetters. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that a whole lot of people were confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim that they require a Bill of No Rights. ARTICLE I You do not have the right to a new car, big-screen color TV or any other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything. ARTICLE II You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone -- not just you! You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the world is full of idiots, and probably always will be. ARTICLE III You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all of your relatives independently wealthy. ARTICLE IV You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need, but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes. ARTICLE V You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public health care. ARTICLE VI You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim or kill someone, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and kill you. ARTICLE VII You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat, or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big-screen color TV or a life of leisure. ARTICLE VIII You do not have the right to demand that our children risk their lives in foreign wars to soothe your aching conscience. We hate oppressive governments and won't lift a finger to stop you from going to fight if you'd like. However, we do not enjoy parenting the entire world and do not want to spend so much of our time battling each and every little tyrant with a military uniform and a funny hat. ARTICLE IX You do not have the right to a job. All of us sure want you to have one, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities in education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful. ARTICLE X You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that you have the right to pursue happiness -- which, by the way, is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an overabundance of idiotic laws created by those around you who were confused by the Bill of Rights.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 1:02:51 PM EDT
Forcing Patriotism IS as bad as forcing kids to read the Koran. BTW, the Pledge of Allegiance was written by a socialist. [url]http://www.whatdoyaknow.com/pledge-plot2.htm[/url] [url]http://www.vineyard.net/vineyard/history/pledge.htm[/url] The flag is a just a symbol of the power of the federal government. Pledge to the Constitution, not the flag. Here is the pledge I say: "I pledge allegiance to the [b]Constitution[/b] of these United States of America, and the the Republic which it defines; one Nation: from many [b]Sovereign States[/b] united under God; with Liberty and Justice for all."
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 5:21:04 PM EDT
The states aren't sovereign. We had a whole war about that one. Sovereign states imply a confederation, which exists at the whim of the states. We have a federation... states exist at the whim of the republic, which in turn exists at the whim of the people. The states surrendered their individual soverignty. That's why we call it the "Federal government" as opposed to the "Confederal government."
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 5:42:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: Forcing Patriotism IS as bad as forcing kids to read the Koran.
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No, it isn't. (I will post my reasons why it isn't just as soon as you post your reasons why it is.)
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 5:50:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JIH:The states aren't sovereign. We had a whole war about that one. Sovereign states imply a confederation, which exists at the whim of the states.
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States are sovereign, regardless of the war. That war was an unconstitutional war.
We have a federation... states exist at the whim of the republic, which in turn exists at the whim of the people. The states surrendered their individual soverignty.
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No. The original union was also called a confederation in the Federalist Papers. The Federal Government exists at the whim of the states, who can secede any time they want. The states exist at the whim the people The Founders were quite clear on this point. That is the reason for the 10th amendment. The states only gave up enough of there sovereignty and their powers to create the federal government. The federal government didn't create the states. The states created the federal government and can end it when ever they desire.
That's why we call it the "Federal government" as opposed to the "Confederal government."
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What we call it is irrelevent. The nature and structure of it is.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 5:54:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter:No, it isn't. (I will post my reasons why it isn't just as soon as you post your reasons why it is.)
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It is because the professed patriotism is meaningless. They don't have to believe it, just say it. Patriotism is meaningless if it does not come from the heart.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 5:58:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FullRange: We, the sensible of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid any more riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior and secure the blessings of debt-free liberty to ourselves and our great-great-great grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt-ridden delusional, and other liberal, commie, pinko bedwetters. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that a whole lot of people were confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim that they require a Bill of No Rights. ARTICLE I You do not have the right to a new car, big-screen color TV or any other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything. ARTICLE II You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone -- not just you! You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the world is full of idiots, and probably always will be. ARTICLE III You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all of your relatives independently wealthy. ARTICLE IV You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need, but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes. ARTICLE V You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public health care. ARTICLE VI You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim or kill someone, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and kill you. ARTICLE VII You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat, or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big-screen color TV or a life of leisure. ARTICLE VIII You do not have the right to demand that our children risk their lives in foreign wars to soothe your aching conscience. We hate oppressive governments and won't lift a finger to stop you from going to fight if you'd like. However, we do not enjoy parenting the entire world and do not want to spend so much of our time battling each and every little tyrant with a military uniform and a funny hat. ARTICLE IX You do not have the right to a job. All of us sure want you to have one, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities in education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful. ARTICLE X You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that you have the right to pursue happiness -- which, by the way, is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an overabundance of idiotic laws created by those around you who were confused by the Bill of Rights.
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[center][red][size=6]AMEN![/size=6][/red][/center]
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 5:58:33 PM EDT
Kid Grow up, once you get out of college and your student government you will see how the real world works.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 6:11:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By STLRN:Kid Grow up, once you get out of college and your student government you will see how the real world works.
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I know how the real world works. Its quite simple really. My mind will never change.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 6:52:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: It is because the professed patriotism is meaningless. They don't have to believe it, just say it. Patriotism is meaningless if it does not come from the heart.
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No, actually you're incorrect. The way the mind works, particularly in children, is that if you do something long enough and with enough reinforcement from your peers, you begin to believe it. That's how indoctrination works. Indoctrination and propoganda are not inherently evil, it depends on what it is you are indoctrinating and why.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 6:53:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: I know how the real world works. Its quite simple really. My mind will never change.
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Then you'll never learn anything.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 7:06:24 PM EDT
Thats Full Range. Got you down for an award for understanding the Constitution fully. The rest of you should copy this cats homework!
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 7:20:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: I know how the real world works. Its quite simple really. My mind will never change.
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That's too bad, because it's obvious that you don't deal in the real world that the rest of us live in. Academic arguements are fine to pass time but you seem obsessed with a world (and country) that don't exist.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 9:12:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sumo2000:That's too bad, because it's obvious that you don't deal in the real world that the rest of us live in. Academic arguements are fine to pass time but you seem obsessed with a world (and country) that don't exist.
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The purpose of Academic arguments is to better understand the world. I have yet to see evidence to the contrary of what I have been saying. The only defense has been: "You're too young" "Grow up" "Get out into the real world", etc. I seem to understand the real world better than most. Quite sad really. Most of been misinformed and mislead.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 9:43:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: I have yet to see evidence to the contrary of what I have been saying. The only defense has been: "You're too young" "Grow up" "Get out into the real world", etc. I seem to understand the real world better than most. Quite sad really. Most of been misinformed and mislead.
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What's sad is that you IGNORED the argument I made to counter yours. I would say that you are the one being misled and misinformed.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 1:00:10 AM EDT
Here is the deal "Liberty" common sense is independent of age. Certain things defy common sense, the idea that the US can be an isolationist nation is one of them. The idea that the US is the same as it was in the days of the article of confederation. which are no longer are in effect since there is now a constitution, is another. And the idea that someone's whose life experience consists solely of school and reading can make a fully informed opinion is another. The reason we say you need to grow up is those of us who have served our nation and seen how the world really works, as Hobbs would say it is a brutish place that is run buy power and violence, can tell by your writings that you neither use common sense or any thing that related to real world to make you statements.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 1:35:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2001 1:27:22 AM EDT by punkatomic]
[chainsawkill]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 3:40:36 AM EDT
So, [b]libertyof76[/b], this proverb from King Solomon should be ignored: 'Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it.' That's Proverbs 22:6. What we teach our children during their formative years, for good or for evil will stay with them throughout their lives, barring some sort of 'road to Damascus' conversion. But even Saul of Tarsus had spent his life preparing for the day of his conversion. Teach them patriotism, their hearts will follow naturally! But even patriotism must be reinforced over and over again! Eric The(EvenForAdultsItSeems)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 4:19:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76:
Originally Posted By STLRN:Kid Grow up, once you get out of college and your student government you will see how the real world works.
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I know how the real world works. Its quite simple really. My mind will never change.
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You don't. It's not. Oh really.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 4:37:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: I know how the real world works. Its quite simple really. My mind will never change.
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Wow, what a rarity. A nerdy college kid who thinks he knows everything.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 5:05:14 PM EDT
And please note that for all his wailing that he's being attacked and no one is answering his points, he has IGNORED the arguments I made against his points.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 5:15:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: The purpose of Academic arguments is to better understand the world. I have yet to see evidence to the contrary of what I have been saying. The only defense has been: "You're too young" "Grow up" "Get out into the real world", etc. I seem to understand the real world better than most. Quite sad really. Most of been misinformed and mislead.
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The point is that the world you seem to want isn't realistic, I've seen your posts about militia versus a standing army, and it just wouldn't work in the real world. remember that the fouding fathers had a country just a fraction of our size and population to deal with. Many of those ideas won't work now, at least not effectively, from a practical standpoint. If you think academics better understand the world, look at some of the crackpot ideas so many college professors come up with. Academic communities are a hotbed of far-left ideas, because they deal with ideas, not reality. hell, look at Berkley.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 5:29:17 PM EDT
Be warned,"In God we trust" is written all over our money. Send me all the money you're conscience won't permit you to use.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 8:14:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Erasmus:Be warned,"In God we trust" is written all over our money. Send me all the money you're conscience won't permit you to use.
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What does that mean? Why would my conscience not permit me to use my money?
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 8:37:16 PM EDT
Rik: The reason I haven't answered you arguments is because I have been thinking why I believe the Pledge should not be forced. You are right about indoctrination. The problem I have is that the pledge is was writing by a socialist, and I don't believe in some of what it says(like the indivisible part and pledging to the flag instead of the Constitution). Now, playing the Nation Anthem I would be okay with. In fact, I would prefer it. Maybe also reciting the 2nd paragraph of the Declaration of Independence. Of course this is not enough. We must get liberals out of the public schools. Hell, let's eliminate the public schools all together, as they are nothing more than machines turning out Big Brother worshiping borg. STLRN, it is said that common sense isn't so common. I find that is very true. I don't believe the US should be an isolationist nation. That is just a slander against me. I believe in non-interventionism. This doctrine is about staying out of other people's business, having no POLITICAL ties, but maintaining economic and social ties between the people. Now there is some need for government, as far as extradition, etc. But stationing military troops is wrong. We should only use the military if we are directly attacked. The US may not be the same(thanks to the tyrants), mostly because of technology, but the principle are the same. You use the same arguments that the liberals use when talking about guns: the US is different that is was back in the 1700's, we have a police force now, etc. Why do you need guns. That logic is flawed in both cases Eric: I agree. Sumo: A militia system would work. The US may have changed, but the principles haven't, and they are as valid then as now(think guns!). I didn't make myself clear in that post. We need a Navy, and of course the Air Force with that, and maybe a small contingent of Marines. If we weren't constantly involved in other countries, we wouldn't need a big military. Yes many universities TODAY are the bed of crackpot theories. But one time they were very valuable. Of course I have taught myself most of what I know; I don't rely on the liberal teachings of college.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 8:59:16 PM EDT
First off, making up your own fake Pledge of Allegiance is meaningless. Why don't you salute a fake American flag, too, while you say your fake pledge of allegiance? Our money is covered with patriotic symbolism, and religious messages. Using it makes you an accessory to some extent. In a social studies class in our small town, the children READ THE KORAN (a little, among other world religious books). So, your protested activity is already happening, forced Koran reading and forced Pledge of Allegiance (good grief). And if the professed patriotic sentiment is "meaningless," why are you making such a fuss? Whenever the Pledge is performed in public, are we each to recite a different, personalized, made-up version? It would sound like the Tower of Babel. As far as directing allegiance towards some object, the Constitution is a symbol, too. It simply *recognizes* our pre-existing, God-given rights; rights we would have with or WITHOUT a piece of paper(though I'm glad we have that piece of paper). Many things are "forced" in this society, and are still meaningful. So What? They force us to pay taxes, and that's meaningful to me. To teach, I was forced to sign a piece of paper that said I would uphold the constitution. Didn't hurt me any to sign that. At any rate, kids who choose to remain silent during the Pledge do so, and life goes on. I felt forced to reply.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 9:10:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: Rik: The reason I haven't answered you arguments is because I have been thinking why I believe the Pledge should not be forced.
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Okay, my apologies. You coulda posted and said "I will get back with you, I need time to research." I woulda waited. [:D]
You are right about indoctrination. The problem I have is that the pledge is was writing by a socialist, and I don't believe in some of what it says(like the indivisible part and pledging to the flag instead of the Constitution).
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I don't know if the politics of the person who wrote the pledge is relevant. Or even its words. The fact is, the pledge of allegiance isn't a historical document to be deconstructed for its hidden meaning, it's a symbol of love of country. I know that as a kid (and a kid in the South at a time when the Rebels were most decidedly unReconstructed) I certainly didn't read anything anti-Southern into the pledge. Back then, Southern Boys WERE patriots, and it was the damn liberal yankees who hated our country. Not sure how THAT got turned around...
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:04:11 PM EDT
erasmus: have you read my previous post? it changes what I originally said. I agree with most of what you wrote there(except the first line). Also, wouldn't the Constitution be a better thing, since it isn't subject to as much interpretation(of course, that probably isn't true)?
Originally Posted By RikWriter:Okay, my apologies. You coulda posted and said "I will get back with you, I need time to research." I woulda waited. [:D]
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Yeah, but it was fun watching you get angry. [:P]
I don't know if the politics of the person who wrote the pledge is relevant. Or even its words. The fact is, the pledge of allegiance isn't a historical document to be deconstructed for its hidden meaning, it's a symbol of love of country. I know that as a kid (and a kid in the South at a time when the Rebels were most decidedly unReconstructed) I certainly didn't read anything anti-Southern into the pledge. Back then, Southern Boys WERE patriots, and it was the damn liberal yankees who hated our country. Not sure how THAT got turned around...
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Well, the Pledge does has a history, and it is worth it to explore it. As far as the Southern issue, the liberals couldn't stand the fact that somebody resisted the government, so they did everything in their power to destroy it.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 4:45:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: As far as the Southern issue, the liberals couldn't stand the fact that somebody resisted the government, so they did everything in their power to destroy it.
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You see, that's the thing. I am old enough to remember when it WAS the liberals who were "resisting the government," and it was the conservative southerners who supported it...supported the police, were pro-military, etc... Then the liberals got the presidency and the roles were suddenly reversed. And now you have young people that mistakenly believe it has always been thus.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 5:03:51 AM EDT
Alot of this crap sounds like it should be coming from a spoiled, unwashed hippie-chick, living in a cardboard shanty-town in front of the ROTC building. What's next libertyof76? Are you going to protest the US involvement in ElSalvador? Or how the sanctions against Iraq are killing children? Maybe if John Walker (aka Abdul Hamid) had said the Pledge of Allegiance a few times, instead of being spoiled and taught to be a self-centered brat, he JUST MIGHT have understood the meaning of Liberty, Nationalism, Patriotism, LOYALTY, and Country. Instead, in his rudderless mind, he saw nothing wrong with taking up arms against his own country.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 7:07:02 PM EDT
Rik: I know it hasn't always been the same. The terms conservative and liberal are so meaningless and change to often that it really isn't good to use it. The conservatives and liberals always seem to be for only increasing their own power, and opposing the other not for principles but for themselves. Major: I don't know the deal with El Salvador, but if the US is there, then I am against it. And yes, the UN and even Madaline Albright admit that the sanctions have been killing children, but of course they believe that it is a fair price. Walker was the product of a liberal education, having gone through public school. he got indoctrinated by it. I notice you had nationalism in there. Nationalism is wrong, so I hope that doesn't get taught. Also, Liberty is the highest ideal to be aspired to, so if the government goes against Liberty(like our gov't), it is our right and duty to stop it, and if necessary, take arms against it. Now Walker wasn't in it for liberty, and anybody but nutty liberals would dare defend him. I sure as hell ain't. He deserves a firing squad or a hanging, or something equaling deadly. He's a traitor.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 9:01:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: Sumo: A militia system would work. The US may have changed, but the principles haven't, and they are as valid then as now(think guns!). I didn't make myself clear in that post. We need a Navy, and of course the Air Force with that, and maybe a small contingent of Marines. If we weren't constantly involved in other countries, we wouldn't need a big military.
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Remember how long it took to set up for Desert Storm? How much longer do you think it would take if we were all militia? Plus, our training standard would be lower. If we were set up like you are saying, we would be defeated before we ever got started in the next large war. Times & technology have changed. Wars don't take long any more. Notice how often the term "come as you are war" is thrown about now. A nation with a militia is doomed in such a war.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 9:07:56 PM EDT
I know that as a kid (and a kid in the South at a time when the Rebels were most decidedly unReconstructed) I certainly didn't read anything anti-Southern into the pledge. Back then, Southern Boys WERE patriots, and it was the damn liberal yankees who hated our country. Not sure how THAT got turned around...
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We are still more patriotic than yankees (ironic isn't it). you want to see US flags flying high? come to Nashville, Rebel flags sure, but LOTS of US flags. Most people I know are diehard patriots and its a rare person around here that spouts that "it partly our fault" crap.
Link Posted: 12/6/2001 3:24:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: ...I believe in non-interventionism. This doctrine is about staying out of other people's business, having no POLITICAL ties, but maintaining economic and social ties between the people.
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So, you are opposed to international commerce? I can't think of a single case in the history of man where international commerce did not involve political ties of some sort. Can you?
Link Posted: 12/6/2001 4:36:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: Nationalism is wrong, so I hope that doesn't get taught.
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Here's the definition of Nationalism. [blue]na·tion·al·ism, n. 1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation. 2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals. [/blue] What about it do you take issue with?
Now Walker wasn't in it for liberty, and anybody but nutty liberals would dare defend him. I sure as hell ain't. He deserves a firing squad or a hanging, or something equaling deadly. He's a traitor.
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I you believe that someone can be guity of treason, against your country, then you're a nationalist. Otherwise, Walker was merely exercising his God given "freedom".
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