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6/25/2017 7:35:25 PM
6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 12/1/2001 9:22:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/1/2001 9:27:34 AM EDT by sopmodm4]
I have only occasionally fired revolvers and I have never even thought of the revolver as adequate for combat.That has all changed now. Over the last few weeks I have been taking a variety of CLEET firearms courses.There was a revolver course and I had two choices.Wait for the revolver course to finish or borrow one of their S&W revolvers and go through the course myself. With a little practice I was able to run the full course of fire in a little more than half of the standard time alotted with 98% accuracy.This is functionally slower than I could run the same course of fire with the Glock but seeing that I was at or near the top scorer of the class for the whole week while using my Glock It was more than acceptable. Another interesting facet of this experience was that when 6 or less targets were engaged in a round that I was actually equalling the scores I got with the Glock and was only a few tenths slower due to the heavier 12lb trigger pull and more potent recoil of the .357 Mag ammunition.I was amazed.Once I got my rythm down with the speed loaders I was able to reload the revolver with a quick 1,2,3 count as opposed to the 1,2(sometimes 1 count)of my Glock.That was the only functional difference. Now in all fairness my Glock has a 3.5lb trigger and is ported as opposed to a stock revolver.I imagine that a revolver with porting,trigger tuning and maybe even using moon clips instead of speed loaders would close the gap even further.I imagine also that the revolver would allow the use of more powerful ammunition like .41 or .44 Magnum or even something like the Bowen Classic Arms .50 AE conversion for those who can really manage the recoil and don't mind the flames from the porting. I think that a .50 AE would be total overkill for 99% of the possible encounters that one might have but as a survival weapon it woulkd lend itself to hunting and bear defense while still allowing a servicable anti personel weapon at the same time. I don't think I'll trade my Glock for a revolver anytime soon but I may go ahead and purchase a 4",ported Ruger Redhawk as field piece for use when camping or hiking.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 9:40:19 AM EDT
4" Model 19, filled up with +P .38's, one of my favorites. If you use a revolver, then you better hit what you are shooting at. You haven't got enough ammo to just hose down the area your "target" is taking cover in.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 10:17:27 AM EDT
Yeah, try that again with someone shooting at you. The thing that makes Automatics better than revolvers isn't accuracy or rapidity of fire, or even their larger magazines. Its how quickly they reload- especally under stress.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 10:17:49 AM EDT
Something like this would be about perfect [img]http://ak-47.gunsnet.net/vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=194640[/img]
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 10:48:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Yeah, try that again with someone shooting at you. The thing that makes Automatics better than revolvers isn't accuracy or rapidity of fire, or even their larger magazines. Its how quickly they reload- especally under stress.
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What crawled up your ass?I know exactly how to do what I need to do in a gunfight because I train to live.My instincts revolve around my training because I train every other day.If I trained with a revolver as much as I have with my Glock it would be instinctive just like my Glock is and I would relaod it reliably and quickly because that is what I do.Do you train enough to know what you would do? It comes down to muscle memory and coordination if you are untrained and uncoordinated you will fumble if you train very frequently you will react the way you have trained even if your training is wrong.During our classes we learned about incedents where officers who had trained emptying their fired brass into their hand to save it from falling on the ground died with a handful of empty brass when they could have used that step to put a fresh load from their speed loader into their weapon.That is proof positive that if you train enough that you will react in exactly that fashion when you placed into a situation that takes away your ability to conciously think about what you are doing.I train in such a way that I always seek cover while drawing and firing,I always come from behind a vertical barricade at a different height so as to not present a predictable target during a fight and I always reload my weapon smoothly and reliably whether lying on the ground,hanging from a ladder or running across a combat course.Was this always the case?Hell no,it comes from 10s of thousands of rounds fired in exactly the way I have been trained to operate.Can you say the same?Maybe so,maybe not.Could you,absolutley.If you spent a little more time testing your abilities and imroving them you would have a slightly different opinion rather than listening to some gunshop/gun magazine "wisdom" and taking it as gospel. I have found this to be true with two subjects.Most recently the revolver being too primitive for combat.I trained,tested and found that to not be the case.Before that it was the idea that pistols were not adequate for fighting beyond 25 yards,I now routinely make 9 ring hits at 75M with my Glock.All of this "conventional wisdom" revolves around the opinions of common people.Elmer Keith killed an antelope at 500yds with a .44 Magnum revolver and that is damned uncommon.The fact remains that people who will not make the sacrifice of time and effort to develop those kinds of skills will remain "common" and will be limited to this "conventional wisdom" just because they don't know any better. Check your preconceptions at the door and evolve instead of just making off the cuff comments out of ignorance.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 10:54:31 AM EDT
I've considered getting a Taurus Ti revolver, but they're ported, which I hear is "unpleasasnt" to shoot because of intense muzzle flash. Muzzle flip is better controlled w/porting, however, so I'm in a quandry. Any suggestions?
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 11:04:16 AM EDT
S & W 686 is a kickass revolver.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 11:07:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: I've considered getting a Taurus Ti revolver, but they're ported, which I hear is "unpleasasnt" to shoot because of intense muzzle flash. Muzzle flip is better controlled w/porting, however, so I'm in a quandry. Any suggestions?
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You just have to get used to the porting of you want the benefits.I too have contemplated buying one of those Taurus Trackers but .41 Magnum is too obscure to fool with when I'd really prefer a .44 Magnum so that I could use more common ammo and even switch to .44 special when in crowded urban environements.If they would make that Ti Tracker in .44 Mag they would not be able to make enough of them.If reminds me of the Lethal Force Institute revolvers that were around a few years ago(at 1/5 the price and super lightweight).If you don't get used to that back blast a little you wilkl get a nasty surprise when you shoot that sucker without hearing protection.I used reduced hearing protection a few time p-er month to stay acclimated to the sound.I use cotton stuffed into my ears instaed of muffs.Keeps me from going totally deaf but does not fully block the sound.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 12:51:33 PM EDT
The revolver IS NOT THE WEAPON OF FIRST CHOICE!! It'll do OK in a pinch! I'd rather have something a bit better! DaMan DaManAq
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 3:02:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: I've considered getting a Taurus Ti revolver, but they're ported, which I hear is "unpleasasnt" to shoot because of intense muzzle flash. Muzzle flip is better controlled w/porting, however, so I'm in a quandry. Any suggestions?
View Quote
I've been using a Taurus 450T as my primary carry gun for a year or so now. Never noticed the muzzle flash being a problem, either at the indoor range or out. Yes, the finish on the sides of the sight is pretty thoroughly fried from the gasses, but I have no complaints. And the porting WORKS. When I tried some slow, heavy bullet loads (250 grain 900 fps) instead of the faster lighter stuff (200 grain Cor-Bon JHP), the difference was distinctly uncomfortable.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 6:06:05 PM EDT
It is not the gun it is the hand holding it. I have several Colt .357s, I prefer my 1011's but the .357 can do the job
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 6:40:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/1/2001 6:34:02 PM EDT by Rabbit9]
[/quote] What crawled up your ass?I know exactly how to do what I need to do in a gunfight because I train to live.My instincts revolve around my training because I train every other day.If I trained with a revolver as much as I have with my Glock it would be instinctive just like my Glock is and I would relaod it reliably and quickly because that is what I do.Do you train enough to know what you would do? It comes down to muscle memory and coordination if you are untrained and uncoordinated you will fumble if you train very frequently you will react the way you have trained even if your training is wrong.During our classes we learned about incedents where officers who had trained emptying their fired brass into their hand to save it from falling on the ground died with a handful of empty brass when they could have used that step to put a fresh load from their speed loader into their weapon.That is proof positive that if you train enough that you will react in exactly that fashion when you placed into a situation that takes away your ability to conciously think about what you are doing.I train in such a way that I always seek cover while drawing and firing,I always come from behind a vertical barricade at a different height so as to not present a predictable target during a fight and I always reload my weapon smoothly and reliably whether lying on the ground,hanging from a ladder or running across a combat course.Was this always the case?Hell no,it comes from 10s of thousands of rounds fired in exactly the way I have been trained to operate.Can you say the same?Maybe so,maybe not.Could you,absolutley.If you spent a little more time testing your abilities and imroving them you would have a slightly different opinion rather than listening to some gunshop/gun magazine "wisdom" and taking it as gospel. I have found this to be true with two subjects.Most recently the revolver being too primitive for combat.I trained,tested and found that to not be the case.Before that it was the idea that pistols were not adequate for fighting beyond 25 yards,I now routinely make 9 ring hits at 75M with my Glock.All of this "conventional wisdom" revolves around the opinions of common people.Elmer Keith killed an antelope at 500yds with a .44 Magnum revolver and that is damned uncommon.The fact remains that people who will not make the sacrifice of time and effort to develop those kinds of skills will remain "common" and will be limited to this "conventional wisdom" just because they don't know any better. Check your preconceptions at the door and evolve instead of just making off the cuff comments out of ignorance.[/quote] Edited because I messed up that quote thing. Rant by sopmodm4 above - my comments below. Sopmodm4 - There is nothing wrong with a revolver and I agree that training makes a weapon system work. If any one doubts the speed of a revolver they need to get in touch with Mr. Miculek. But as your points are well taken, the above diatribe and training mantra make you sound like a real wannabe. I train, at speed, religiously, but I have absolutely no misconceptions that what happens under the timer will happen under the gun. I thank the Lord that I have never been called to use my skill at arms in defense of myself or others, and I give credence to the words of those who have.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 7:33:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 7:41:04 PM EDT
If a guy practices and becomes proficient with a revolver than it can certainly equal or out perform an automatic. Some guys carry the Glock compacts or other small autos that only carry 6 or so rounds. There is no rounds advantage there. I personally am partial to automatics, but I do understand that the key is to become proficient with your chosen (or issued) combat weapon.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 7:52:58 PM EDT
Some people think that the reason OJ Simpson was carrying a revolver the day of his run from the police in L.A. was that he didn't want to increase the evidence against himself by dropping shell casings if he shot himself.
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