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3/20/2017 5:03:23 PM
Posted: 11/25/2001 7:48:05 AM EDT
My highpower shooting partner & I drove down to Hutchinson, Ks. to a small gunshow yesterday, just for something to do, and found Randy Weaver there signing copies of his book. I didn't want to approach him to ask some of the questions that I still have about the Ruby Ridge shootings, but there were several guys who spoke with him. I read in the Hutch paper(edited by my cousin, who is pretty liberal & anti-gun)that Louis Freeh had some scathing remarks to make about the FBI's handling of the incident while he was testifying during a Senate committee hearing. The article also mentioned that the govt. paid Weaver $100K for the loss of his wife, and $1 million for each of his 3 surviving children, but admitted no guilt. Jeez - when they shell out over $3 million bucks, do we have to be rocket scientists to figure out that somebody screwed up, and that the govt. lawyers know it? The paper didn't try to explain the difference between a white supremicist and a white separatist - they just labeled Weaver as a supremicist. Guess I owe Mr. Weaver a letter to the Hutch editor explaining a few things like entrapment and how it's difficult to show up for court on the right day when you're given the wrong court date. And maybe it wouldn't hurt to mention that the same FBI puke sniper who killed Vicki Weaver was also at Waco?
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 10:14:14 AM EDT
It very literally, physically sickens me when I think of or see coverage of either the Ruby Ridge or Waco incidents. I simply do not have words for my view of what went down. Personally, I'd like to shake Randy Weaver's hand and tell him I'm sorry for his loss.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 10:28:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By flatlander: . . I read in the Hutch paper(edited by my cousin, who is pretty liberal & anti-gun)that Louis Freeh had some scathing remarks to make about the FBI's handling of the incident while he was testifying during a Senate committee hearing. The article also mentioned that the govt. paid Weaver $100K for the loss of his wife, and $1 million for each of his 3 surviving children, but admitted no guilt. Jeez - when they shell out over $3 million bucks, do we have to be rocket scientists to figure out that somebody screwed up, and that the govt. lawyers know it? The paper didn't try to explain the difference between a white supremicist and a white separatist - they just labeled Weaver as a supremicist. Guess I owe Mr. Weaver a letter to the Hutch editor explaining a few things like entrapment and how it's difficult to show up for court on the right day when you're given the wrong court date. And maybe it wouldn't hurt to mention that the same FBI puke sniper who killed Vicki Weaver was also at Waco?
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When I visited Wash. DC 2 years ago, the FBI agent that gave the tour had some real kind words to say about Mr. Freeh because he went up thru the ranks. The FBI guys at Ruby Ridge really messed it up big time. It would be real tough to fire a Fed. govt employee. Man, 3 millions bucks is chump change to a org. that has a budget of hundreds of millions. I would really miss my wife & son if I were in his shoes. The Feds are thinking of repealing the Commitus Posse Act? The military is trained to kill, and are not civilian policeman. I would also write that litter to the editor to make your views known. The news media seem to have mixed-up white supremist & seperatist, militia etc. I would've like to shake his hand also.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 10:33:47 AM EDT
Saw most of the congressional hearings on C-span live. Some real BS. No Question as to the fact that the government comitted murder. If that had happened to my family and I survived I would have started my own revolution. There was an old picture of Lon Horiuchi in Time a few years ago. Still remember what he looks like. What a POS.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 10:34:10 AM EDT
I met Mr. Weaver and his daughter at one of the Tulsa gun shows a few years back. I purchased one of his autographed books and shook his hand and told him he was a great American. Although I don't agree with him in a lot of his views on racism in this country, I am glad he stood up for what was right in the Ruby Ridge situation.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 10:59:11 AM EDT
3 million dollars would buy me lots of guns a cool car and even a great vacation. But 3 million dollars is not enough money to take one of my children or my now ex-wife away from me. I would also like to shake his hand and tell him I am sorry for his loss. It is a shame the goverment and LE departments all over the country have a few poopheads who give the rest a bad name. But the real shame is that the agencies protect the poopheads [:(!] Ropes
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 11:33:28 AM EDT
Two? three years ago I stopped Randy Weaver for a minor night speeding violation on I-15. Figured out who he was , gave him his D/L back and we spoke for awhile. He was surely wary of me but after a few minutes of conversation he figured out I wasn't the enemy. I did mention how sorry I was for his losses and that it was a hell of a thing to happen in the land of the Free! A sad situation for sure. Not all LEO are a**holes. His situation was a strange one from start to finish. A very complex situation when you get all those Agencies involved, commo lines are so long and twisted. Mistakes can be made VERY easily and very QUICKLY. FN
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 3:42:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Frank237: . . A very complex situation when you get all those Agencies involved, commo lines are so long and twisted. Mistakes can be made VERY easily and very QUICKLY. FN
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I know what you mean, I don't have any involvement in law enforcement, but these folks appear to me are on a very short leash. It looks like that a lot of decisions were made at a very high level in the Clinton Administration, and most likely with approval from Bill himself. I'm not anti law-enforcement or govt, but I'm just trying analyze what actually happened and why. What did these people do to be killed by the govt? to me there still a lot of unanswred questions. The govt has not been very forthcoming with answers, you have to ask the right question in order to get the right answer.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 3:55:54 PM EDT
FLATLANDER: Mr. Weaver started of in the media as a "survivalist" obviously they felt he wasn't sufficiently demonized and was given the title of "white supremacist."
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 4:04:40 PM EDT
Frank237...thanks for your kind words to Randy Weaver. I see what happened to him as a symbol of where America was headed....and may still be if we do not all stand together for our God given rights and Constitutional protections. A curse on coirrupt and crooked government agencies and agents. Their crime is the greater for their violation of a sacred trust. Anyone who take the Constitutional oath and becomes a public servant should be severely punished for violating said oath...Death to tyrants!!
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 4:24:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 4:41:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 4:47:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2001 4:40:05 PM EDT by 5subslr5]
raf, Judging from the numbers of posts you obviously know far more than I. However, I do know that Mr. Weaver went to town on a regular basis and could have been arrested by the local sheriff. Generally I don't look for or to flame but when I remember Mr. Weaver's wife shot by the "FeeBee" shooter with the infant in her arms and read your post may I say plainly "YOU SIR ARE STUPID."
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 4:56:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2001 4:48:51 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 5:02:10 PM EDT
Nope - not confused. Mr. Weaver went into town on a regular if not frequent basis. The local sheriff, whose name I don't remember, said in many interviews that he could have arrested Mr. Weaver but BATF made certain he was out of the loop. I suspect that neither your opinion nor mine matters much to Randy Weaver.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 5:09:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 5:48:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: What the Gov't did was wrong. What Mr. Weaver [i]didn't[/i] do was STUPID.
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No, what the gov't did was: 1]criminal 2]murder 3]absolute malice 4]"tyrannical and oppressive" to quote that fat drunken prick, Ted Kennedy.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 6:36:58 PM EDT
Randy's "didn'ts" do not excuse the Gov's "dids". This did not start out as a big deal, at least to those of us here on this board. Can ANY of you, honestly, tell me or anyone else that YOU honestly feel that there is any legitamacy whatsoever to the laws as govern firearms(barrel length, automatic fire, US parts count, pre/post ban, magazine capacity, etc.)? Good. So now we've established that this was begun as a witch hunt on someone who "violated" illegal laws that should not be in place much less observed, all that remains is to judge the outcome, and we all know the outcome. Randy did not trust those wishing to "arrest" him, and he feared for his and his families safety. Quite justifiably, it turns out. Lots of us here grouse and bitch about the laws, Randy Weaver took the course of a true Patriot and did not observe them. I honestly do not know how I would react in a similar situation, but I can assure you that there are MANY in power who would have us believe that the next train is just taking us to the showers. It was civil disobedience gone TERRIBLY wrong, in my book. All rules of engagement were broken, and Lon Horiuchi himself has stated that he could not ascertain his target. Well, gee, doesn't that mean you may not want to take that shot, dumbass??? And as for Randy, 5subslr5 is right, I have seen MANY accounts of the fact that prior to his holing up, he was frequently in town and could have been apprehended on a number of occasions. When/if they ever come for us, I hope we are not faced with these tough decisions. But it's easy to armchair quarterback what MAY have been. Everything about this was WRONG, and I believe Randy Weaver reacted appropriately to his beliefs, beliefs that many here profess to share. I wonder how many though would follow through with action, or simply be first in line to comply for convenience's sake? No flames intended, but my suit is on just in case.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 6:59:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 7:21:39 PM EDT
We should kindly repay the BATF for the services they gave Mr. Weaver and the folks at Waco by returning the favor. [-!-!-] [50]
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 7:44:18 PM EDT
The Ruby Ridge government-sponsored assasination of Vickie Weaver stemmed from a failed attempt at forcing Randy Weaver to spy for them. When he refused to play ball and spy for them, they paid him back by shooting his loved ones, and pets. Vickie Weaver, charged with no crime, was singled out as the strong personality in that household who needed to be taken out, to cow the survivors into submission. After assasinating her, someone shouted over a loudspeaker to Mr. Weaver, "We're having pancakes. What's Mrs. Weaver cooking you guys?" The only thing I can conclude is that this sort of thing was a trial balloon, where the government was testing the waters to see if the American People would passively accept the brutalization of otherwise law-abiding gunowners. Once they paste a demonizing label on you (separatist, supremacist, self-styled, whatever) your civil rights will have evaporated and your life won't be worth 10 cents.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 10:46:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By warlord: I know what you mean, I don't have any involvement in law enforcement, but these folks appear to me are on a very short leash. It looks like that a lot of decisions were made at a very high level in the Clinton Administration, and most likely with approval from Bill himself.
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What the hell does Clinton have to do with Ruby Ridge?? That happened in [red]August 1992[/red], under [red]George H.W. Bush's[/red] reign.
Link Posted: 11/25/2001 11:03:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: If Mr. Weaver had paid close attention to his court case and the attendant goings-on, none of this would have happened. Some would say that that the Gov't was playing tricks. Maybe so. All the more reason for a man in Mr. Weaver's position to drop everything and pay sole attention to his court case. Had Mr. Weaver hired a good lawyer at the outset, and stayed current with his case, most likely NONE of what happened at Ruby ridge would have happened. And Mr. weaver's wife and son would still be alive. What the Gov't did was wrong. What Mr. Weaver [i]didn't[/i] do was STUPID.
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good attorney? God forbid something similar should happen to you,,how much Justice can you afford? Cause you get what you pay for,,that says most of it. Sure you might luck out and get a decent cheap ass attorney , but we all deserve the very best. The system the way it is is flawed..besides it aint about justice,,it is numbers and ego for the most part.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 3:22:58 PM EDT
I wonder if Lon Horiuchi goes out in public? I wouldn't be caught anywhere near that f*ckhead. I wouldn't feel safe since he's probably a top target on many people's lists. Him and his mom Janet Reno.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 3:58:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ph119: Personally, I'd like to shake Randy Weaver's hand and tell him I'm sorry for his loss.
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I have done just that, and although I'm sure a 100,000 people before me have done the same thing, he seemed sincere when he looked at me and said "thank you".
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 4:17:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed:
What the hell does Clinton have to do with Ruby Ridge?? That happened in [red]August 1992[/red], under [red]George H.W. Bush's[/red] reign.
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Achmed is right on this count. Just goes to show you....it [b]DOESN"T[/b] take a village to kill a child (the son)...or it's mother.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 4:21:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 4:29:24 PM EDT
I was going to respond to this RAF character and just decided it wasn't worth it, later.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 4:41:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2001 4:36:24 PM EDT by Noname]
[img]http://www.outpost-of-freedom.com/images/horiuchi.jpg[/img] [url]http://www.jubilee-newspaper.com/horiuchi_10-5.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 5:26:05 PM EDT
I know, [b]raf[/b], that it seems easy in hindsight, but I have run into many folks who are so convinced that 'justice is for sale' in this country, that there is no such thing in their minds as an 'innocent mistake' by the government. Randy Weaver seems to be in that category. When he was told that on such and such a date to be in court, and then later learned that the court had actually set the hearing for an [u]earlier[/u] date, while you and I, or his store-bought attorney, might just think that an 'honest mistake' had been made, I'm certain that the Weavers didn't. And when he was interviewed prior to his arrest and informed that if he would just infiltrate the Aryan Nation campground and report on them, a group in which he had never before expressed any interest in joining, what must he have thought of government ethics? And when they actually arrested him, they had a man and woman in civilian clothes, pretending to be stranded on an isolated road near the Weavers' home, take the Weavers down when they stopped to offer help, in a neighborly way, only to wind up spread-eagled on the cold, iced-over, gravel road, what must the Weavers have thought about that? And when they learned that the government has set him up, using his need for money to lure him into cutting the barrels of two shotguns off at a little more than 18 inches - remember, the barrels were not illegal - the stocks had been shortened to provide an [u]overall[/u] length of less than the legally required 26 inches, what must the Weavers have thought about that? And when they heard the shots that were fired on that fateful day and their son, shot in the back, lay dead at their feet, what must they have thought about that? And when they found that they were surrounded by the shock troops of a 'foreign-to-them' nation, using loudspeakers, remote controlled devices armed with shotguns and cameras, helicopters, and such, what must they have thought about that? And when Randy Weaver was shot in the back while going to visit the body of his dead son in an old shed, what must they have thought about that? And when Vickie Weaver was shot down in cold blood, while holding an 18 month old child in her arms, and wounding Harris in the process, what must Randy have thought about that? And when the FBI, using their loudspeakers, loudly taunted the dead Mrs. Weaver and her family, what must Randy have thought about that? And when he finally surrendered to the authorities, he discovered that he was the villain in the piece, not anyone else - not the US Marshall who shot his boy in the back, not the crack FBI sniper who had shot his wife while holding her child, not the FBI agent in charge that had authorized the illegal rules of engagement, what must Randy have thought about that? And when he heard that Director Louis Freeh was giving that same special agent-in-charge Potts a promotion to assistant deputy director, what must have Randy have thought about that? And while we sit idly on our butts and let our government do such things in our name and by our authority, for our benefit, and for our protection, what must we think about that? I say God damn the nation that makes a hero out of Louis Freeh. And I say God damn the nation that keeps a murderer like Lon Horiuchi on its payroll. Eric The(AndIAlmostSayG-DUsForAllowingItToBe)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 5:27:46 PM EDT
I have sat in Randy's living room and had dinner with the man, don't let what the media said fool you, he isn't a supremacist, he is a seperatist,he believes in the seperation of the races, no inter-marrying, Randy is a hell of a nice guy and very down to earth, I talk to him about once a month and have several signed copies of his book for sale if anyone is interested, [email]SurvivorY2K@yahoo.com[/email]they run $20.00 and shipping, see the picture below: [img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/034/XF/ZH/2c/yv71628.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 5:35:53 PM EDT
Hun, that was a fantastic reply. Thanks for bringing that lump in my throat back. Damn I get sick when I think about this incident.[pissed]
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 6:14:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 6:36:17 PM EDT
Yeah, what the Hun said. ----------- "..and so I trust in love."
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 7:11:21 PM EDT
Nor at Mt. Carmel [u]Church[/u], as well! The Attorney General, Janet 'Burn-The-Village-To-Save-The-Village' Reno, said she accepted the full responsibility for what happened at Waco. Her boss even mentioned that the atty general had 'accepted full responsibility' for decision at Waco ('The Buck? The Buck never even got here!'). Trouble with all that is - while she accepted the full blame, she received no punishment for accepting the full blame! WTF does 'accept the full responsibility' mean when there are no consequences whatsoever for accepting the full responsibility? Eric The(WordsHaveMeaning,UnlessYou'reADemocrat)Hu­n[>]:)]
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