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Posted: 11/14/2001 12:04:01 AM EDT
Well here's my story, A few weeks ago I bought a rifle from a guy that posts on subguns.com thats out-of-state. I sent him a check to pay for his rifle and he waited until it cleared. The rifle arrived to my FFL last Friday and I was at the FFL today to handle the paperwork. Well when I got home today this is what I got from my email. <----> One of my responsibilities as a Pennsylvania Constable is to have at least a rudimentary knowledge of offenses and what can be done about them. I do a lot of work in bad checks. The instances where a person writes a check on an account that does not exist are the easiest to deal with. In all 50 States this is a Title 18 offense under larceny or grand larceny. The use of mail for fraudulent purposes across State boundaries expands the offense considerably. Normally, the cost to prosecute a case in California from Pennsylvania would be extremely prohibitive. A defense attorney in California could play games costing the plaitiff/witness thousands of dollars in travel expenses. This isn't the case here. Besides being a lowly Constable my "daylight" job is flying. I am a Captain with a major airline that has routes to every city in California. It costs me zero dollars to go to the airport and hop on a flight. I have no hassles at security because my badge is always "accidentally" shown at just the right time. If the flight is full, the Captain flying the trip insists that I take the jumpseat. In our case - (the federal case we will have) - I will be able to "bump" anyone who has the jumpseat on our airline or anyother airline as I will be a witness in a federal criminal case. Since this case will go federal, I will not have a cost in the actual prosecution. I have know ideal as to who you are, what you do, how old you are; anything. It is unfortunate than you will lose your rights as a federal felon by being a little quick on the draw. Please return the rifle and accessories ASAP. I have made an appointment with the IG's office of Pennsylvania for 1430 on 11/16/01. (Pennsylvania's IG and the DOJ will prosecute this case.) Before leaving for Greensburg I will check the snail mail for an overnite delivery of a check in the amount of $1250. Yes, you are going to send me a certified check AND send the rifle plus accessories back. If the rifle is in the condition I sent it and all the accessories are there you will get your money back. You see, sending the rifle back does not help the matter of the check. ***If certified funds are in my P.O. Box on Friday, I'll postpone my appointment with the IG until I receive the rifle.*** I have developed friendships with several Marines who are either stationed or have friends in California. They will gladly provide me with reconnaisance on your where abouts. Camp Perry provides much more than shooting opprotunities. [Continued...]
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:04:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2001 11:59:19 PM EDT by deltree]
[Continued...] Oh! The last thing I'm going to do on Friday is stopping in Pittsburgh at the Federal building. I have spoke with my old college football coach who is a now a member of the FBI's corporate (he likes to call it) SS (security/surveilance) department. They keep him pretty busy down in Florida. Anyhow, he used work with the section chief in Pittsburgh. They are looking for any "terrorist" information they can get. Your name and a check written on an account not in existance will whett their appetite. There's a real nice Federal Prison here in PA. West Deer is its name. I go there regularly because of one of the inmates there. I'll work real hard to get you there also. I can't promise that nothing will happen; I can only promise that if you make good on the entire check - at least I will not be involved. You have committed a crime punishable by several federal statutes. By making the check good, then it only becomes an attempt and/or conspiracy. Tom Tuka P O Box 447/ 229 Idlewild New Galilee, PA 16141 <----> The reason he wrote this is because I lost my wallet a few days back, I've cancelled a shi*load of credit cards and ID's, and my POS credit company that the check came from cancelled my account, INCLUDING his check which had cleared and I got the notice last Saturday evening. Now what happened is his check that had cleared is now cancelled. He is now accusing me of being a "terrorist" and will call his "friends" to help him out. My question is, can he sue me for that since I have proof that my bank cancelled his check after it had been cleared? Can I sue him for slander his he called me a "terrorist" for no reason at all and for harrassing me via email? Some people here know me from the Webshooter shoots... do I look like a f*ck*ng terrorist?!? Any input would help as I'm very pissed off right now.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:05:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2001 12:12:50 AM EDT by jhasz]
Really, this guy is full of it. IF the company (meaning the airline he works for) knew that he was using his company benefits (free flights) for business purposes it would put his a** in a much bugger sling than yours (can you say defrauding the company?)- IF you cover the check - and you get your bank/credit Company to write a letter explaining what happened - they will do this. Ok, so he flies for US Airways... BFD... it's against most company policies to fly on benefits for business. He's supposed to BUY a ticket if he's doing travelling for any reason other than airline business, or pleasure travel. Secondly, he's probably pissed because of the fact that the check was sent back stamped "Payment Stopped" - send him a letter with your certified funds, explaining what happened - tell him to check it with the credit company, and that you'll supply a letter on their letter head explaining it if he wants to... Or better still, send a [b]copy[/b] of the proof with the certified funds - but definetly send the certified funds - this will disprove intent - or at least go a long way towards that goal (I'm not a lawyer, so get thee to a lawyer for full knowledge ASAP). But yes, call a lawyer and have him in the loop as well - in fact, your correspondence should indicate that you are forwarding copies of all the correspondence with him to your attorney. Hope this helps - some of those statements he's made could possibly be used against him as threats, etc... and could pu thim in the "terrorist" category if he's not careful
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:10:14 AM EDT
Ohhhhh.. a Major Airline Ninja.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:13:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 12:13:26 AM EDT
Have you told him what you have told us here?
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 5:02:25 AM EDT
Send me his name and email adress... i also work for usair And i will check him out...pat
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 5:37:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By paterpk: Send me his name and email adress... i also work for usair And i will check him out...pat
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[red]Tom Tuka P O Box 447/ 229 Idlewild New Galilee, PA 16141[/red]
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 5:43:59 AM EDT
A few threats in that email as well. Seems he is definately over-reacting. I'd try to get a phone # and call him and explain.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 5:46:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2001 5:40:24 AM EDT by Matt_S]
Uhmmm, do you have the cancelled check? It would be pretty hard for him to claim a fraudulent account if he cashed the check. Also, if you have a legit account with legit checks, I don't see the problem. The research the account and bank number on the check. If it lines up with a real account and bank number you should be okay. Did the check bounce? If he sent the rifle AFTER he recieved funds, that doesn't sound quite right. Something just doesn't add up here. The fact the he asking you to send more money and the rifle back to forget the federal offence makes me think he is trying to scam you. The fact the he says he has friends that can surveil you sounds fishy. Add the threat to your life "Camp Perry provide more than shooting oppurtunities?" and if this dude brings charges up on you, you have written proof of his threats, which also not be taken lightly in federal court. The best thing you could do, since they cancelled all the checks is to try to explain to him what happened and send him a repayment. But if you send him money and the rifle , I bet dollars to donuts you will have just lost the money. IF he is a cop, as he says, he would have to prosecute you for the federal crime whether he gave you your money back or not. Send him one or the other, but not both. Did you let him know what happened as soon as you found out, or did you let it sit? [b]whoa, if you have the cancelled check, he recieved payment and IS trying to scam you. I would take his email to an attorney, with your cancelled check. He may the be the one trying to commit mail fraud here.[/b]
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 5:47:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By deltree: Well when I got home today this is what I got from my email. <----> Before leaving for Greensburg I will check the snail mail for an overnite delivery of a check in the amount of $1250. Yes, you are going to send me a certified check AND send the rifle plus accessories back. If the rifle is in the condition I sent it and all the accessories are there you will get your money back. You see, sending the rifle back does not help the matter of the check. ***If certified funds are in my P.O. Box on Friday, I'll postpone my appointment with the IG until I receive the rifle.***
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BWHAHAHAHA! He wants a check for $1250 AND the rifle back!? WTF? Send him certified funds ASAP, let him know what happened. He's full of it! If he'll take your money and still wants to talk with his "college coaches buddies friend" tell him to kiss your ass. Make sure you DOCUMENT EVERYTHING! IN HARDCOPY! If the little SOB wants to play hardball, cover your ass. Print upp all e-mails, anything dealing with the closing of your account, and copies of any payments you send him. Send everything via certified mail, and get save all recipts. This guys an ass. Av.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 6:00:52 AM EDT
May adivce would be this: 1) Take ever single correspondence you have had with this person, every document, email hardcopy, FFL documents, checks, all information from your actions upon losing the wallet, and make copies of them. Keep the originals, provide a copy to a friend and keep another copy for a lawyer. Reason: Firstly, the tone of this email is clear. This gentleman has no interest whatsoever in settling this issue outside of a court. Had this been the case, he would not have 'made an appointment with the IG's office'. Nor would he have expanded upon how this case will 'go federal'. Nor would he have threatened you with legal action in so many different instances. The email that he sent you, sadly, was not a complaint letter over a business transaction. What it amounts to would in my guess fall under the classifications of bribery and threat of bodily harm. This will most definitely work against him. 2) Go to your lawyer, or secure the services of one. Explain the situation to him, provided him the copies of all the documentation to back up your claims, and inform him of your intentions. I am assuming that you wish to simply provide this gentleman with the proper funds for the item and let the matter be settled. The lawyer can best describe how this can be done. I would also ask the lawyer to contact your ISP to get a log of transmission for the message, so that you have proof from a source other than yourself that the message was sent. You might also ask about contacting your and his ISP regarding a threatening message being sent through their email services. Reason: This has just become a legal issue, whether he is serious or not. You will only be doing yourself a favor by covering your ass. Threatening to have 'buddies' violate laws in illegal surveillance of you, threateneing to fraudulently provide you information to the FBI as being a terrorist, all these are serious offenses. And the gentleman said it best, "I'll postpone(not he never says that meeting his conditions will cancel his legal action) my appointment with the IG until I receive the rifle", and"I can't promise that nothing will happen." That alone says to me that no matter what, the law will be involved. Once again, CYA.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 6:02:12 AM EDT
...continued 3) UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES CONTACT THIS GENTLEMAN IN ANY WAY OUTSIDE OF LEGAL REPRESENTATION. If there is to be any communication, it should be from your lawyer to him, via certified mail. Reason: Anything further you do will be documented by him and used against you. Don't make any mistakes. It might cost to retain the services of a lawyer, and maybe it is just me being paranoid, but I don't think you can afford to take this lightly. But, as the Boy Scouts say, be prepared. >My question is, can he sue me for that since I >have proof that my bank cancelled his check >after it had been cleared? Can I sue him for >slander his he called me a "terrorist" for no >reason at all and for harrassing me via email? >Some people here know me from the Webshooter >shoots... do I look like a f*ck*ng terrorist?!? Can he sue you? Of course. Anyone can sue anyone for any reason. Does he have a case? It's up to a judge to decide...but in light of the circumstances and the message sent to you I doubt he'd have much of a case. Please, do not waste ANY time and get a lawyer. It can save you a hell of a lot of hassle and pain. Hopefully, through the lawyer, you can provide payment to him for the goods without it becoming a legal matter. Worst case, you've gotten yourself prepared and covered for the possibility of litigation. Keep in mind, he's not threatening to sue you, he's threatening to report you to the authorities for violation of federal law. You won't be fighting him, you'll be fighting the state. Can you sue him.....of course. What your chances are I cannot say. I think you might be better off in sending his letter to the ISPs and the AG office in Pennsy for sending slanderous, verbally abusive, and threatening letters to you.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 6:26:07 AM EDT
Whoa! The BS meter is pegged on this one! Since this was a subguns.com originated sale, you might also directly contact Tom Bowers or "BCR226" (moderater) of their "Board of Inquiry". You could post this question there, as it deals directly with the actions of sellers. However, given the (good) advice above, a personal email to Tom or BCR226 would probably be more useful to you. Good luck! The BOI: [url]http://subguns.biggerhammer.net/inquiry.cgi[/url] BOI posting rules: [url]http://subguns.biggerhammer.net/inquiry.cgi?read=14735[/url] Tom Bowers: [email]subguns@subguns.com[/email] BCR226: [email]bcr226@subguns.com[/email]
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 6:45:00 AM EDT
First, send him the funds. Document as necessary. Then, if he is still an asshole, contact the appropriate authorities local, state, and federal and make sure Mr. asshole ends up in Prison for a long time. These come to mind: Mail Fraud Threatening etc....
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 6:52:30 AM EDT
I guess I don't get it. You say the check cleared, this other guy didn't ship the rifle until the check cleared. Both those bits of information point to the fact that he got paid. I don't know the inner workings of the banking system but it seems to me that it wouldn't be possible to stop payment on a check that has already cleared. Cleared generally means payed. If you account was closed, for what ever reason, you would still be on the hook for the money, and your bank should be hounding you not this other guy. Consider researching further with your financial institution whether the guy got paid or not. If he didn't you'll have to make good. If he did, then he's scamming you or he made a mistake. In either case, the e-mail contains some thinly veiled threats. He is probably full of sh!t, I've known dudes like this before, but you might consider sending a copy to his local law enforcement agency. Good luck.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 7:00:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2001 7:21:32 AM EDT by gardenWeasel]
You do not need a lawyer for crying out loud. This guy is full of crap. The first step he would have taken would have to have been notifying the police of mail fraud. After that there would have been an investigation to see if you refused to respond to him etc etc. He is entitled to his $1250 that's all.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 7:20:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 7:35:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2001 7:30:20 AM EDT by deltree]
Well, this is what I got on my email this morning: <-----> Dino, You don't quite understand the situation. I'm not the one telling you what crime you have committed; it is in the Code. The DOJ is always very interested and "spring loaded" to do extra where crimes are committed and guns are involved. Also, before closing your account the bank asked you several questions; one was, "Do you have any checks outstanding?" You had to say "No" for them to close with out paying the check. The DOJ knows this and they will see through what has taken place. BTW: I talked to my bank yesterday and their position is the one I took: You issued a check on a closed account. They're saying the check didn't clear now. Also the investigation, if we go there, will find if you even had $1250 in your account. You express/overnite certified funds of $1250 and life will remain uncomplicated for you. Dino, I have only nailed one real bad guy in my life; but I'm one-for-one. When he gets out of West Deer he won't even be able to park outside a gun show much less own a gun. I spoke with Barbara Major briefly about you. She says you are nice and seem like a straight up guy. Well, I know there are alot of very polite criminals too. I see that there are four more emails from you, but I'm answering the emails from Long Beach and Camp Pendleton first. Tom <-----> A few more threats, then I called him and he answered like this. Him: What do you want Dino! Me: I just wanted to explain what's going on here and about your threats. Him: I want my check on Friday and I promise you that I will get you man. I am also law enforcement officer. End of conversation, can anyone here recommend a lawyer in the SoCal area? Also any members here that live near him? BTW: Barbara Major is my FFL dealer.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 8:03:01 AM EDT
My suggestion: 1. Write the seller back (I am assuming that you have already explained what happened). In no uncertain terms, explain to him that the check was written in good faith and canceled in error by your bank/CC company. 2. Tell him that he has now made DOCUMENTED threats against you of criminal action for a civil matter. I understand that this is considered "Abuse of Process"--i.e. attempting to use the Criminal system to collect Civil Debts. 3. He has attempted to extort both the funds AND the merchandise from you when he is entitled only to the funds and a reasonable fee (usually set by state law) for the bounced check. 4. If he has contacted (not likely) his "old college cheerleader buddy" at the FBI for a private matter, the buddy will be immediately terminated from employment for abuse of his position. Using your Government Law Enforcement job to help a friend investigate a civil complaint is cause for termination (especially in the image conscious FBI). My advice would be to verify that the funds were not given to him by your bank/CC company. Overnight the funds to him with a signed receipt requested. Turn all the info you have over to your local District Attorney along with proof that you paid. Tell him you are doing so, and that the local DA will decide on whether to press charges against him or to only contact his local DA and inform him of the problem. Tell him to have no further contact with you over this matter once he receives his money. You must pay the money immediately (regardless of the problem with the bank), as he is entitled to that. Even if he is a Di*k, he is also entitled to have the money Overnight mailed to him. After that, there is no legitimate reason to worry. Anything additional happens, and he is the one liable for prosecution due to his threats. AFARR (not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV).
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 8:07:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2001 8:05:13 AM EDT by GodBlessTexas]
Originally Posted By deltree: The reason he wrote this is because I lost my wallet a few days back, I've cancelled a shi*load of credit cards and ID's, and my POS credit company that the check came from cancelled my account, INCLUDING his check which had cleared and I got the notice last Saturday evening. Now what happened is his check that had cleared is now cancelled. He is now accusing me of being a "terrorist" and will call his "friends" to help him out.
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How could a check that has "cleared" be cancelled? Once the check is cashed, it's cashed. If the credit card company requested the funds back (and I'm not even sure if that's legally possible), then that's THEIR fault, not yours. But once the check is paid you're out of the water. You need to get the status of that check from your credit company ASAP.
My question is, can he sue me for that since I have proof that my bank cancelled his check after it had been cleared? Can I sue him for slander his he called me a "terrorist" for no reason at all and for harrassing me via email? Some people here know me from the Webshooter shoots... do I look like a f*ck*ng terrorist?!?
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He can sue you for anything you like. It only takes a couple of bucks and the right paperwork to file a lawsuit. However, you can countersue, and I believe the law is on your side. This guy is full of it. He talked to your credit company? Bullshit, as a credit card company isn't going to say anything to him about your account. It's not legal for them to discuss another person's account with him. If I were you, I'd file a complaint against him with your local PD. He's implying he's got friends in your area that are connected, and that's at least harassment, and at most assault. Also, he's attempting to extort you by making you pay both the money, if still owed, as well as return the rifle. That's also a big no no. Next, get on the horn with your credit card company that issued the check ASAP. Get the name and extension/employee ID number of whomever you talk to. Inform them of the situation and find out the situation of the check that you sent him. Don't be a Bush leaguer to this guy. He's trying to screw you. If you have done everything by the book and in good faith, then you should go on the offensive with this guy. It's impossible to win a fight if you are always on defense. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 8:28:22 AM EDT
imo This clod has made numerous threats in this letter (if he sent it as posted)... Nail his @$$ If he is a "constable" as he claims, the fool should know that is not legal. ANY intelligent person would first discuss this rationally
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 9:53:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2001 9:54:50 AM EDT by gardenWeasel]
He can't do anything once you pay him.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 10:03:08 AM EDT
I get the impression that he is NOT an LEO because he seems to mention that fact many times in each e-mail.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 10:10:51 AM EDT
I had a check 'clear' and the funds were in my account. When my bank sent the check to the bank the check was written on that bank refused payment and sent it back to my bank. My bank sent it back to me two weeks later, and had taken the funds out of my account which resulted in several bounced checks. I was informed by the company that wrote me the check that it might bounce and called my bank repeatedly checking on my account and it did absolutely no good. They have no record until they get it back and instantly zap your account. It sucked majorly. One week earlier, and it would've bounced my checks to the IRS and State Dept of Revenue. This guy sounds like he is totally full of crap. Send him the check and he has no legal leg to stand on. Nothing you did was intentional or illegal. Get a lawyer only after you pay the ass and he still serves you papers. Sounds like he is just making sh*t up to scare you into paying. There is NO WAY you should send a check AND merchandise back. That's something HE could get in trouble for - threatening you through various means to send him a check PLUS the stuff the check was for. Sounds like a shakedown.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 1:07:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Weiseguy: I guess I don't get it. You say the check cleared, this other guy didn't ship the rifle until the check cleared. Both those bits of information point to the fact that he got paid. I don't know the inner workings of the banking system but it seems to me that it wouldn't be possible to stop payment on a check that has already cleared. Cleared generally means payed. If you account was closed, for what ever reason, you would still be on the hook for the money, and your bank should be hounding you not this other guy. Consider researching further with your financial institution whether the guy got paid or not. If he didn't you'll have to make good. If he did, then he's scamming you or he made a mistake. In either case, the e-mail contains some thinly veiled threats. He is probably full of sh!t, I've known dudes like this before, but you might consider sending a copy to his local law enforcement agency. Good luck.
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I was thinking the same thing. This guy is trying to screw you. Get a lawyer quick.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 1:22:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By paterpk: Send me his name and email adress... i also work for usair And i will check him out...pat
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I said be probbly works for US Airways, 'cause I know they have a hub there, but it might be AA or ??? I know it's not UA - no hub. BTW, the wife works for UAL and there have been times I've been tempted to use bennies to fly on biz, but I knew I'd (she'd) get hung out to dry if I did...
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 1:24:20 PM EDT
It's not that suspicious. Credit card companies issue checks to be used in the same manner as the card when the card cannot be used. If you use one the check will clear and the amount will be added to your credit card balance. If you cancel the card the company can reverse all of the charges made recently including the checks so they don't have to take a loss.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 1:27:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2001 1:35:46 PM EDT by gardenWeasel]
Also see how he admitted that there hasn't even been an investigation yet????
Also the investigation, if we go there, will find if you even had $1250 in your account.
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Told Ya! He's dreaming up the part about firearms violations.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 1:38:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2001 1:32:04 PM EDT by jhasz]
Originally Posted By gardenWeasel: Also see how he admitted that there hasn't even been an investigation yet????
Also the investigation, if we go there, will find if you even had $1250 in your account.
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Told Ya!
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And he's also admitting that your account [b]did[/b] exist (something he said was 'nonexistent' previously) - so I'd look into this very closely - to make sure he's not trying to scam you...
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 2:14:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2001 2:29:35 PM EDT by Hitman]
I wouldn't send additional funds to a PO box. If you need to try this: [url]http://www.gunlaw.com/[/url] The way he is going about it, it sounds more like an extortion than a guy trying to recover funds. He doesn't even sound like he is willing to decently discuss the situation with you and just wants more money and the gun back with a bunch of threats to add. Most of use here are probably open to a decent dialog between buyer and seller to straighten out any mis-understandings but this guy won't.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 2:36:09 PM EDT
Send the rifle back to him ASAP via your FFL--he is not worth dealing with --Do not send any additional funds to him. You cannot sue him for slander unless he made the accusations to someone else and it damaged your business. Anyone who reports knowingly false information to the authorities these days about "terrorists" is flirting with jail time themselves (hoax). Many banks will not accept CC checks as deposits for just this reason CC companys can revoke them after they have cleared. For anyone especially an LEO as he claims to be and a professional pilot to act in this manner is an indication of how bad you dont need to do business with him. send the rifle back document its condition cause I can just smell the accusation he is getting ready to make. I would send an e-mail back stating simply that the rifle is on its way back that you will not send anymore funds and that you do not wish any further contact with him. Explain situation if you wish but I dont think it will do you any good. Send same in a certified letter for documentation --keep a copy. Keep in mind that there are several thinly veiled threats agianst you in his e-mail.Admiting to several felonies as weel or at least alluding to them --archive the e-mail. once this is over and he has his rifle back and you get your CC straightend out send it to your ISP's security dept and have Him blocked from sending you any further e-mail. DO NOT do this deal send the rifle back asap. It does not sound like YOU have done anything wrong but, For one thing I smell scam artist and two no-one should act like this period he could have at least asked "what gives " and waited for you to give an explanation first before sending an e-mail of that flavor. Good Luck
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 3:04:15 PM EDT
IF your account has not been charged for the funds, then send him a certified check for the amount of the rifle. Send it by US mail, certified, return receipt. Keep the email along with print and electronic copies. After he receives it, get in touch with the CA Attorney General and the PA Attorney General about his threats. And make no mistake, they are threats. Document the entire incident and if possible get the PA Attorney General to press charges. If he thinks a criminal investigation and abuse of process is OK to resolve a minor misunderstanding, see how he likes it when HE is the subject of the investigation. In any case, this is not the kind of guy decent law abiding gun owners want to be associated with - he sounds unreasonable and a bit unstable IMHO.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 3:10:39 PM EDT
Are you certain that he [u]didn't[/u] receive the full credit for the check in his account? Does your account have $1,250.00 more in it than your checkbook says it should have? If the $1,250.00 was never actually paid out by your bank, then yes, go immediately and have a replacement check made out in certified funds and PRIORITY MAIL it to the Seller, along with a letter explaining the situation, and a copy of his e-mail to you. Then send a copy of everything to the nearest US Postal Inspector. Clearly note on your letter that it's being 'cc:'d to a US Postal Inspector. While his original 'extortionistic and terroristic' communication to you was not via use of the US mails, your response indicates to him that he may be treading on dangerous grounds and that you know your way around the block, as well. You 'responded' to his threats and the US Mail is being used to aid in the futherance of his illegal scheme! Bingo! Tell everyone you know! If he persists in this line of conduct, file a civil suit against him in your home state/county and seek an injunction! BTW, since he is a 'state official' you can go federal with it, a '1983' action, nationwide service, atty's fees, etc.!!!! Eric The(LetMeAtThisPuke!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 3:23:24 PM EDT
Wow, this guy is a piece of work. Very doubtful he is a Captain for a major airlines or a Constable based on his temperament and irrationality exhibited in his e-mails. Geez anyone with a 5th grade education knows to spell "no" when he means no, not "know ideal" who you are.... I love the fact he goes to the local Federal prision becasue of one of the inmates there. Most likely, this is where he learned about Title 18. Also, a Constable would know the title AND section of the United States Code. Additionally, I think the Marines have a little more pressing issues than helping out their "bud" do recon. I also think the FBI is a little busy too at the moment. Anyway, send the guy his rifle back and contact a lawyer who specializes in contract and UCC law. This guy probably didn't break in the barrel or clean it properly anyway. Good luck.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 3:26:36 PM EDT
first of all, yes get a lawyer. second DO NOT send the rifle back to him, i have seen scams like this, he will trump up some damage to the weapon (perhapse causing it himself) and use that damage to keep funds as well. third, document everything, send all non-electronic correspondence via RETURN RECIPT REQUESTED, even if nothing comes of this, the x-tra x-pence will intimidate him by makeing it look like you know a lot more about this than he. btw, isnt TUKKA a member here too??? at any rate document everything, as far as i can see the only laws being broken here are being broken by him. the more paper you have the better off you are. hope this helps the_survivalist
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 3:31:33 PM EDT
Hey survivalist, A clarification for you - Tuuka is Finnish, not Pennsylvanian. Tuuka is not involved in this at all. We could only wish to buy what he has at the prices he gets them.....
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 3:38:28 PM EDT
Hey Deltree, This guy is so full of shit his eyes are brown. Your best reaction is to play this out to the fullest extent. Get a lawyer. You need to approach it from the angle that this dumbass is not full of shit. Create a total uproar for fear of your life from this "Psychotic" idiot. Call his bluff 110% When you call the police and FBI, you are in fear of your life. Make them SWAT in on this dumbass. He will be fried... Have fun and be careful...But make sure this dipshit get's your point... [50]
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 3:41:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RichinCM: Hey survivalist, A clarification for you - Tuuka is Finnish, not Pennsylvanian. Tuuka is not involved in this at all. We could only wish to buy what he has at the prices he gets them.....
View Quote
oops, my bad, the names are very similar though arent they? all the same letters in the same order, but one has two "u"s instead of "k"s. oh well no harm done. and yes i do dream of getting NFA weapons at his prices.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 4:04:30 PM EDT
If you do return this rifle to this scammer, make sure you take detailed photographs of it's condition, and take it to a collector/appraiser to back up it's condition. That way if he claims damage, you got him for attempting to defraud...Good luck, this guy barks loud, but he's teeth are rotting....I dealt with an asshole like this who claimed to be a SOG veteran of North Vietnam, and a Navy Seal. He boasted of personally killed hundreds of women and children and enemy with his K-bar knife....people actually belived this ass...said he was a millionaire...bla, bla...I called a few SF buddies, as well as the Navy Seal Team Association. I then jumped on his shit, and he reacted with treats to me and my family. We found out this ass was an undertakers assistant, and owned an old shitbox...After a few calls from the 'real deals', he told his fans he was leaving for Panama on his 50' yacht the next day...I would have swam that day
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 4:11:24 PM EDT
Ok. I am a lawyer, a law enforcement retiree with IG expertise investigating law enforcement corruption. This is not legal advice, I do not practice law in your area and am speaking hypothetically as a member of this forum. Accordingly, please also do not rely upon or otherwise construe any portion of this communication as specific or general legal advice or as any authorization or so as to create any rights in any party. Lawyer or not, I agree with AFARR, but have some additional comments. First. One can call their bank and be told in connection with a specific check that “funds are available.” This does not mean the instrument actually cleared your bank. Most states have maximum time frames in which banks must make funds available but out of state checks often may not have cleared the issuing bank until week or so thereafter. Hence, the closing of your account may have caused the actual denial of funds after he received the green light from his bank. I always advise my clients that its best to call the issuing bank to confirm funds have actually been transferred on a specific check before releasing goods. In any event your unrelated cancellation would have resulted in his bank not receiving the funds and then their taking recourse against his account (recouping the funds from his account). Second. Any law enforcement officer making documented and written threats promising to “sick” his federal buddies on a civilian in connection with a personal problem and further alleging accusations of terrorism, and then suggesting that “his badge” allows him improper unauthorized privileges on an airline, would be perfunctorily suspended. In fact I have always advised my investigative staff to never identify themselves as LEOs in civil, neighborly or routine incidents with civilians for the simple reason that they are especially vulnerable to civilian complaints by an irate civilian. In any event, if what you say is true such a complaint (IMHO) would never receive serious consideration by a federal prosecutor or investigative agency. 1. There is no mens rea (intent to commit any illegal or fraudulent act), 2. there was no systemic or pervasive fraud upon the public or other reason to believe any criminal conduct occurred. While I would always suggest that it never hurts to speak to a local lawyer, I am quite confident that if you re-send him a check with a short note, copying your atty, detailing the paper error, this matter will go away. Final note, I would probably advise my client that if they believed this individual was anything more than someone over reacting, I would recommend they document the instance with local law enforcement and, in the extreme, with the FBI and OIG. These agencies do not generally react positively to their being used to threaten the populace over civil issues.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 4:51:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2001 4:46:59 PM EDT by gardenWeasel]
Oh and have the sense to make sure that any check you send him states that the nature of payment is to satisfy full and final on any and all claims regarding the sale of whatever you bought on whatever date and that by endorsing the check he agrees. Then once he has cashed it, see to it that this jackass has to spend the whole thing on legal fees.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 6:41:42 PM EDT
It sounds to me like someone here is just spreading a lot of shit. You said the check cleared right? Well that means it was exchanged for green backs!
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 11:10:44 PM EDT
Ok, so now I know that probably everyone that responded to this thread has received this following email: ------------------- Subject: You want to beat me up on a one sided, heavily revised story? The state of things today, its a shame. I finally got some computer operator help and now I know what this low-life DELTREE meant when he wrote "You should think about it." One thought before I go on: Has anyone of you thought it is funny that he (DELTREE) plasters names all over the discussion board - except his own? I'm not going to do the same thing. But you might want to find out who he is before you ever deal with him. I don't have alot of time so here are just the facts and present reality: I have in my hand a check from DELTREE in the amount of $1250 dated 10/25/01 drawn on an account that is closed. Furthermore, the paperwork that came with this check advises me my account has been charged $1250. I also am missing a brand new/unfired Dragunov "Tiger" Carbine w/accessories that are in the possession and control of DELTREE. This "board crier" going by DELTREE has you all thinking that he is faultless or a victim of circumstance. That is not true. To get that account closed DELTREE had to do more than "report a lost/stolen" credit card. If, and only IF, the card was issued from the account when he made that initial call the operator/teller asked him about outstanding checks and he had to tell the person how many checks were outstanding and the amounts of each one. THAT DID NOT HAPPEN. Here is something else: And you'll see the complete dishonesty that DELTREE has treated members of this board or wailing wall with. Now, as they say follow the money, in this case it is the actual check I have in my hand. 10/25/01 DELTREE writes this check 10/30/01 I receive the check - I notified DELTREE 10/31/01 the check is deposited 11/01/01 the check "clears" the Philadelphia regional check processing center (RCPC) This is what the teller referred to when she told me the "check cleared." 11/02/01 the check "bounces" 11/05/01 the check begins the return trip. 11/06/01 $1250 dollars is taken from my account. 11/07/01 The check bearing all this info is mailed out from the local branch 11/13/01 I get the bad news (the returned check) in the mail. Match the above with these dates: 11/05/01 (at least 3 days after account became nonexistent) DELTREE writes; Tom, I got your previous email, sorry but I just got back in town. 11/06/01 DELTREE writes; Tom, Did the rifle ship out yesterday? 11/07/01 DELTREE writes; Thanks for the tracking number! Also would you happen to have one for the parts going to my house? On at least three occasions DELTREE failed to communicate that he drafted and mailed to me a check to which an account no longer existed. And now that he has intentionally placed my name into a negative light; I'm going to find out the exact date that account was closed. My gut feeling is it was closed BEFORE the credit card facade.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 11:11:16 PM EDT
(continued) One of you asked why he didn't put this on the SUBGUNS board. Because I would know how to post a response on that board. And when they found out what happened the BOI board would archive it. I don't belong to www.ar15.com. Also they would understand that I didn't THREATEN this candidate for the stupid criminal award; I just gave him all the information he needed to make the RIGHT decision. I really gave the lowlife a break. And he smears the internet with some unbelieveable BS!! First: send me back the money and the rifle?! Some of you people actually believed that. I said I want certified funds; when I get those then you can send back the rifle and if it is still brand new/unfired I'll refund your money. Second: I cannot do anything for myself or in my personal behalf in adversity as a Constable. I described the options I would have to take if the thing went full blown. No threat! But IF I did threaten him how many of you won't do the same in this situation? Third: I hope none of you believed the "jailhouse lawyers" who spouted off on this subject. About half way through this letter I phoned the lawyer I retain as Solicitor for my Constable work. He is a ND grad, an ND post grad in law, and a partner in his law firm. He is licensed in Superior Court, PA Supreme Court, and Western PA Federal Court has an ABA lawyer. He met me at his office at 2100 hours and we broke the meeting at 0000hrs. (I kid you not. I was surprised.) Bottom line; after examining the check, the envelope the check came in, the record of communications, the FedEx airbills, and the notice from my bank is this: MrDELTREE committed fraud, across State lines by mail. Big, Big, NO NO. Fourth: If the State and the Feds would prosecute this case it would be on the merits of the case. I mentioned that my old coach was in the FBI to assure DELTREE and get him to really believe that I would at least be accepted in the Pittsburgh Branch. And "terrorists" have been known to buy guns in some unusual ways. Or steal the firearms in clever scams. This thing he tried to do was a little to dumb though. Okay, as Paul Harvey says, there's the rest of the story - or something like that. I hope that all of you will appreciate that my efforts are to educate and head off a nasty situation. DELTREE construed them otherwise. Good luck to all of us. We can't afford these problems where firearms are concerned and people who INITIATE and INSTIGATE these types of problems are lowlifes and color all of us. Tom Tuka
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 11:12:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2001 11:08:11 PM EDT by jhasz]
Now I haven't looked at all of this, but I think this guy need a) to take a chill pill, and b) get it straightened out with deltree... More later, perhaps... What do the rest of you guys think? I have jsut noticeed that the one lawyer that [b]did[/b] respond to this post wasn't in the distubution list of his email - hmmm, afraid of something perhaps?
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 11:38:34 PM EDT
Yep, I received the same crap.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 11:46:55 PM EDT
This oughta be fowarded to the appropriate authorities so this scammer (The seller) can have even more damning evidence when his ass is hauled into court for mail fraud. Even he is now admitting the check cleared and then the bank took the money back. Seems damn suspicious to me. I was scammed years ago by somebody like this guy. He sold me an item, then claimed he didn't get the money, which I know he got. Then under threat he extorted the item back. I was out the cash and the item I bought. Sorry patriot, but I have dealt with your kind before. People like you belong in Prison with the other dregs of society.
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 12:18:23 AM EDT
Well, my response to him was basically, apologise for "flying off the handle" explain that it pissed him off to have the check bounce, tell deltree that he needs to get certified funds to him by the weekend (if indeed deltree's account hasn't been dinged for the amount) and include bank fees (it's only fair if the check really did bounce - or got pulled back by the credit company) without bringing FBI buddies and others into it. And then wait - if the money doesn't show up, then come down on him like a ton of bricks... but at least give the guy a polite chance to make good on the purchase! I also informed him that I was hanging onto the correspondence in case I got dragged further into this mess
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 12:33:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/15/2001 12:31:00 AM EDT by deltree]
Tom, the reason this was not posted at subguns.com is I do not post there unless I'm trying to sell something, I usually post here at AR15.com Also you have a document which is a copy of the letter that my card company sent me that is included with your new check that was sent today. I was never informed by them until 11/10/01. It was DATED 11/03/01 and came to my mail at 11/10/01, you need to check your email (11-10-01) in which I stated "Uhm, the check was cancelled." and told you that I'll just send you another check with less amount to compensate for the mags you owe me. Also my card company did not ask me if I have any outstanding check or balance when I closed it since an automated machine took my complaint, not an actual operator. This what you told me: "Why would you send me another check? I don't understand that. Your original check cleared. And you can't send a check on Monday anyway; its Veterans Day. " Anyone reading this, on the deal we had he stated that I will get (3) 10rd mags and 2 5rd mag. What I got is (2) 10rd mag and (2) 5rd mags. Why didn't you tell me that you cannot find the missing mag before you sent the parts? Why would you ship it without informing me that you will only be sending (2) 10 rounders since you cannot find the other one? About the threats: "Also they would understand that I didn't THREATEN this candidate for the stupid criminal award; I just gave him all the information he needed to make the RIGHT decision. " So you're saying that calling the FBI (for me being a terrorist? you must be joking, alot of people have met me here from recent shoots, ask them if I have a fucking profile of a terrorist or do I look like one.) And for your buddies at Pendelton to come over to my area and do what? shoot me? beat me up? stalk me?... so you DONT think this is a threat to my life? You never politely asked me why did the check bounced, you just started to over react without asking me what is going on, the first email I got from you since you found out that the check bounced (11-13-01, after Veterans Day... I guess you called your bank huh after what I told you on the 10th that it was cancelled, in which case I told you last 11-10-01 that it has been cancelled.) are FULL OF THREATS as most posters here can tell. You have stated here that the check CLEARED, I do NOT consider that as Mail Fraud since it was written in good faith and HAD CLEARED your bank, otherwise I don't think or anyone else that you would send it unless you are sure it cleared. It would have been fraud in my opinion if it did not clear and you were notified by your bank that it was a fake account or stolen check. Bottom line is the check cleared and bounced back a couple of days after it had cleared, then I told you that the check is cancelled which is 11/10/01 and I told you that I will just send another one on Monday (which is a holiday under Veterans Day) but you did not reply back to my email regarding that I have told you that the check was already cancelled according to my bank. Then yesterday (11/13/01) I got your email w/threats telling me that the account never existed and you will prosecute me for writing you a bad check. Dino
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 12:52:53 AM EDT
I would be Pissed off to no end also? if I was Dogged out of my Gun and my money? Its been 2 weeks and your still crying about how he responded to your actions that caused his problem! Give him the money and stfu!
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