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Posted: 11/13/2001 5:40:26 AM EST
Of all the people in history that are famous for writings or teachings. IE: Socrates or other Greek's and Roman's where their history is much better documented and easier to "prove" their existence. Why is their no such documentation on Christ other then the Bible or word of mouth stories? Im not an expert in this, maybe there is an answer but I dont know it.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 5:44:34 AM EST
Even the Jewish historian Josephus (circa 70AD) documented that Jesus lived, preached, and was killed by the Romans. Roman records indicate that a man named Jesus was crucified by them for acts against the gov't. I don't have my books in front of me, unfortunately, but do a web search and you'll find what you're looking for. loonybin
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 6:04:08 AM EST
The Gospels in the Bible were written by the Saints. The Bible to me is just as credible as any other subjective work.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 6:08:28 AM EST
We have more current 'books' concerning Jesus than we have concerning Julius Caesar. Was Julius Caesar a 'homosexual'? We have no idea! The Roman historian Suetonius in his classic work [i]The Lives of the Caesars[/i] (from c. 121 AD; first translated in 1606), repeats as true, certain stories and jokes from Caesar's career in the military and thereafter to show that this man was 'the wife of every Roman husband, and the husband of every Roman wife'! But it is unclear from other sources if that was actually the case. There is simply no such quandry over the character of Christ! We know Christ in such a way that if something turns up now and is proclaimed as a 'secret' gospel, etc., we can judge whether or not such snippet 'sounds' as if it came from Christ, or not! What other person from that time period are we so well acquainted with? That we would dare claim to know [b]how[/b] he even thought? Eric The(ButHistoryShouldn'tCallYouToChrist,HeIsPr­esentlyWithUsAll!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 6:09:23 AM EST
You definitely want to research Josephus record re: Christ. But consider the Jewish culture vs. the Roman and Greek cultures. The Jewish culture was primarily agararian, with their history being primarily carried from generation to generation orally. God commanded it so in the Law. Greek and Roman cultures were much more intellectual and formally organized. Hence, their record keeping is better.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 6:12:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By garandman: You definitely want to research Josephus record re: Christ. But consider the Jewish culture vs. the Roman and Greek cultures. The Jewish culture was primarily agararian, with their history being primarily carried from generation to generation orally. God commanded it so in the Law. Greek and Roman cultures were much more intellectual and formally organized. Hence, their record keeping is better.
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This makes sense to me.....
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 6:16:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By WOIM:
Originally Posted By garandman: You definitely want to research Josephus record re: Christ. But consider the Jewish culture vs. the Roman and Greek cultures. The Jewish culture was primarily agararian, with their history being primarily carried from generation to generation orally. God commanded it so in the Law. Greek and Roman cultures were much more intellectual and formally organized. Hence, their record keeping is better.
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This makes sense to me.....
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Also, remember that Jesus died, rose again and returned to heaven about 33AD. In 70 AD, the Romans came and obliterated Jerusalem. Any written records would likely have been destroyed at that time.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 6:23:32 AM EST
Thanks for the help....I see what my friend says to this.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 6:26:44 AM EST
WOIM, do an Internet search for "historical Christ" and you will get some fine bibliographies for your quest. To the above references I would add "Annals" by Tacitus, another Roman writer. Some of the early Christian authors are also excellent, among them, Tertullian, Justin Martyr and Origen.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 6:35:15 AM EST
the roman authors (tacitus and livy) didnt have any first-hand experience with jesus. they talked about christians (generally dont think much of them) and most simply repeated what they'd heard. think about it. ALL the accounts were written AT LEAST 30-40 years after jesus was dead.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 6:40:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By lurker: the roman authors (tacitus and livy) didnt have any first-hand experience with jesus. they talked about christians (generally dont think much of them) and most simply repeated what they'd heard. think about it. ALL the accounts were written AT LEAST 30-40 years after jesus was dead.
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You are right of course, but I don't follow your point. MOST ALL historical accounts are written after the protagonists / antagonists are dead. Socrates and Plato included. Right???
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 6:47:17 AM EST
Personally, my opinion is that [b]all[/b] of the Gospels and the New Testament were basically written prior to 70 AD! I would go into why I believe that, but the response would be too long for this thread. Suffice it to say this one simple fact - the fall and destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem is not ONCE referred to in any manner in the New Testament! Why wouldn't THAT be mentioned and proclaimed [i]ad nauseum[/i]? Erix The('CauseItWasStillAFutureEvent!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 6:48:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Suffice it to say this one simple fact - the fall and destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem is not ONCE referred to in any manner in the New Testament! Why wouldn't THAT be mentioned and proclaimed [i]ad nauseum[/i]? Erix The('CauseItWasStillAFutureEvent!)Hun[>]:)]
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Not proclaimed, but definitely prophesied - by Jesus.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 6:53:02 AM EST
Amen, Brother G, and Josephus gave authority to this by telling us that the Roman soldiers were under the belief that the Jews had hidden gold between the great stones of the Temple - they methodically overturned 'every stone' in their destruction of the Temple! [>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 6:53:52 AM EST
You may want to look into the writings on the dead sea scrolls as well. There are some interesting bits of information contained in those. Again like most religious writtings they are subject to being translated by many people with many differing opinions. [beer]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 6:57:50 AM EST
Ok on another note how much information do you think the Vatican has supressed as the did not fall into their plans....Its funny how this orginization got to pick and choose which scriptures are "true" and which are not.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 7:04:07 AM EST
Not to worry [b]WOIM[/b], the Protestant Revolution has been ongoing for nigh five centuries now, if the Vatican had hidden anything of extreme importance to the Story, it would have been disclosed by now! [>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 7:07:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/13/2001 8:57:01 AM EST by Renamed]
Was Julius Caesar a 'homosexual'? We have no idea!
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Julius Caesar was married twice and had a daughter. If he was a homosexual, he swung both ways. What about Jesus? [url]http://www.tatchell.freeserve.co.uk/religion/jesus.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 7:08:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By Renamed:
Was Julius Caesar a 'homosexual'? We have no idea!
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Julus Caesar was married twice and had a daughter. If he was a homosexual, he swung both ways. What about Jesus?
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I don't beleive Jesus even knew Julius Caesar. [:D]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 7:28:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By Renamed:
Was Julius Caesar a 'homosexual'? We have no idea!
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Julius Caesar was married twice and had a daughter. If he was a homosexual, he swung both ways. What about Jesus?
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Are you guys saying that Jesus was a fag? It actually kinda makes sense since there's so many priests that likes young boys. Kinda makes you wonder. [>:/]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 7:31:04 AM EST
I don't beleive Jesus even knew Julius Caesar.
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But did Jesus "know" any other men... in the Biblical sense? [}:D]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 7:31:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By WOIM: Of all the people in history that are famous for writings or teachings. IE: Socrates or other Greek's and Roman's where their history is much better documented and easier to "prove" their existence. Why is their no such documentation on Christ other then the Bible or word of mouth stories?
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Socrates was a philosopher. It's needed for him to write about his beliefs. Herodotus was a historian. It's needed for him to write about what he witness and heard in his time. I used to wonder this myself. I realized at the time Jesus was busy about his Father's business. It was not his job or his followers to document things. Others have also commented well. In that time other people's profession was to collect taxes, scribe (document things), politician, fishermen, and others. Jesus was a carpenter by profession, not scribe. Nor was any of his followers scribes. At Jesus's time most people in power (politicians, etc.) hated/feared him. Why would they write about him to give him more popularity/fame? Look at Alexander the Great. He did not write about his feats, nor his soldiers. They were to busy fighting, trying to survive, and travelling to the next country. It took others to write about him and his feats, or the word of mouth from soldiers that returned home. As today, the news reporter goes to the front line and document and record things. The common soldier is too busy, too tired, too hungry, and etc.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 7:32:58 AM EST
Post from Renamed -
Julius Caesar was married twice and had a daughter. If he was a homosexual, he swung both ways.
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Ahhh, but that would be [b]consistent[/b] with what Suetonius wrote, now wouldn't it? Besides, you either ___ ___ or you don't. That's from The gospel of Andrew Dice Clay! Leave Jesus out of any sexual conversations, if you will. Eric The(What'sHEEverDoToYouThatDeservesThat?)Hun[­>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 7:48:10 AM EST
As a late comer to this thread - I only have a couple of references that also point to Josephus, as well as a few others. Check out the books "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" and "Evidence that Demands a Verdict II" (sometimes titled "More Evidence that Demoands a Verdict") By Josh McDowell. He covers a lot of ground, including references to the Dead Sea Scrolls, Josephus, and others.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 7:53:36 AM EST
Leave Jesus out of any sexual conversations, if you will.
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I'll be glad to do that, but I'd like to point out that I wasn't the one to bring homosexuality into a discussion of the historic record of Jesus.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 7:54:45 AM EST
BTW, [b]jhasz[/b], your signature line is from one of my all-time favorites! Eric The(AndILikeJoshMacDowell'sStuffToo!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 8:00:55 AM EST
Post from Renamed -
I wasn't the one to bring homosexuality into a discussion of the [u]historic record of Jesus[/u].
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No, I simply pointed out that while we believe we know all there is to know about Julius Caesar, we don't even know this salient point! However, if you're offended on behalf of Caesar, accept my most gracious apologies. Eric The(JustASuggestion,YouKnow,ASimpleSuggestion­'IfYouWill')Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 8:12:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: BTW, [b]jhasz[/b], your signature line is from one of my all-time favorites! Eric The(AndILikeJoshMacDowell'sStuffToo!)Hun[>]:)]
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And what might that be? (just curious - I changed to it last night while listening to it, and the sequel on MP3 last night)... I wonder why they don't play it on the radio that much anymore? Yeah, from most of my library, you'd never know I was raised Luteran...[;)]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 9:05:57 AM EST
However, if you're offended on behalf of Caesar, accept my most gracious apologies.
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I think that apology should be rendered unto Caesar. [:D]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 9:46:53 AM EST
You might check the works of Dr. Paul Maier of Western Michigan University at: [url]http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/maier3.htm[/url] He did a video tape series on the history, archaeology, and geography of Jesus that is fascinating. They even found the "arrest warrant" for Jesus which described him as a "practicer of the magic arts," and required him to be stoned. The ONLY reason he was crucified on a cross instead of stoned is because Pontius Pilate, the Roman governer, was visiting his palace in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus' arrest. How unbelievably incredible, especially in light of Psalm 22:16. The deeper you dig, the more stuff you find!
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 9:50:52 AM EST
F&$K ceaser,[smile] I agree with the Hun I love that song, I hope that little Mexican girl was worth it. The only name I can think of is Marty Robbins, but he didn't sing that. I know I could look it up but that is cheating, [wink] give me a hint.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 9:54:47 AM EST
Behold! [img]http://www.iskcon.net/sacramento/nrsimha4.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 10:01:41 AM EST
Nothing a well placed 45-70 won't fix, sir.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 10:36:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By Rew: F&$K ceaser,[smile] I agree with the Hun I love that song, I hope that little Mexican girl was worth it. The only name I can think of is Marty Robbins, but he didn't sing that. I know I could look it up but that is cheating, [wink] give me a hint.
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Actually you'd be right saying Marty Robbins sang it - the Song is "El Paso" ... the sequel is "El Paso City"
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 10:38:51 AM EST
EL PASO (written and performed by Marty Robbins) from the 1959 Columbia LP, GUNFIGHTER BALLADS & TRAIL SONGS, CL 1349 Out in the West Texas town of El Paso I fell in love with a Mexican girl Nighttime would find me in Rosa's cantina Music would play and Feleena would whirl Blacker than night where the eyes of Feleena Wicked and evil while casting her spell My love was deep for this Mexican maiden I was in love, but in vain I could tell One night a wild young cowboy came in Wild as the West Texas wind Dashing and daring, a drink he was sharing With wicked Feleena, the girl that I loved So in anger I challenged his right for the love of this maiden Down went his hand for the gun that he wore My challenge was answered in less than a heartbeat The handsome young stranger lay dead on the floor Just for a moment I stood there in silence Shocked by the foul, evil deed I had done Many thoughts raced through my mind as I stood there I had but one chance and that was to run Out through the back door of Rosa's I ran Out where the horses were tied I caught a good one, it looked like it could run Up on its back and away I did ride Just as fast as I could from the West Texas town of El Paso Out to the badlands of New Mexico Back in El Paso my life would be worthless Everything's gone in life, nothing is left It's been so long since I've seen the young maiden My love is stronger than my fear of death I saddle up and away I did go Riding alone in the dark Maybe tomorrow a bullet will find me Tonight nothing's worse than this pain in my heart And at last here I am on the hill overlooking El Paso I can see Rosa's cantina below My love is strong and it pushes me onward Down off the hill to Feleena I go Off to my right I see five mounted cowboys Off to my left are a dozen and more Shouting and shooting I can't let them catch me I have to make it to Rosa's back door Something is dreadfully wrong for I feel A deep burning pain in my side Though I am trying to stay in the saddle I'm getting weary, unable to ride But my love for Feleena is strong, and I rise where I've fallen Though I am weary I can't stop to rest I see the white puff of smoke from the rifle I feel the bullet go deep in my chest From out of nowhere Feleena has found me Kissing my cheek as she kneels by my side Cradled by two loving arms that I'll die for One little kiss and Feleena, goodbye Eric The(HeAlsoWroteAFollow-UpSongCalled'Feleena',WhichWentNowhere)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 11:00:15 AM EST
Man there is tons more! Letters from Mary and Peter that have been found. Many things from trips out of the holyland. You must keep in mind,there was not always a Bible. The New Testament is a combination of writings and documents about Jesus by many people,then they where put togther to make the bible. So if everthing about Einstein was put in to one book could somebody then say they can't believe he lived with out more proof? That would be cheap and ignorant,and at risk of being flamed most of the arguments against Christans and Jesus are both cheap and ignorant.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 11:06:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: EL PASO (written and performed by Marty Robbins) from the 1959 Columbia LP, GUNFIGHTER BALLADS & TRAIL SONGS, CL 1349 Eric The(HeAlsoWroteAFollow-UpSongCalled'Feleena',WhichWentNowhere)Hun[>]:)]
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I did not know that... Thanks Eric The(Mad Researcher)Hun[>]:)] That's what we need 'round here is a cowboy smiley
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 11:09:01 AM EST
Thanks Eric
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 11:58:23 AM EST
What if a man in shining garments appeared tomorrow hovering in the air above a great city and declared to all that he was sent to us by God; and that as a credential of his claim he would perform any miracle that was asked of him? And suppose that he was asked to make the sun do figure eights in the sky for precisely twenty six minutes, beginning at noon on the following day. And supposing he accomplished that. Would we believe him? Well, I think that for a while all would believe, all those who saw what he had done. But after a week or so, I fear only those of [b]good will[/b] would still believe; all the others would be talking of autosuggestion, mass hysteria, mass hypnosis, coincidence, unknown forces and the like. It is not what we see in the sky that helps; it is what is in the heart: a right hope, a good will. From the Ninth Configuration by Wm. Peter Blatty. He goes on to suggest that it is better to have faith from an inner conviction than from the undeniable senses which, if ignored would be damning to the soul.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 12:10:26 PM EST
What if a man in shining garments appeared tomorrow hovering in the air above a great city and declared to all that he was sent to us by God; and that as a credential of his claim he would perform any miracle that was asked of him?
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That's an interesting question. Although someone could demonstrate superhuman powers, it isn't possible to prove omnipotence. How could you know that the messenger was from God and not from Satan, "the great deceiver"?
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 12:14:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By Renamed: That's an interesting question. Although someone could demonstrate superhuman powers, it isn't possible to prove omnipotence. How could you know that the messenger was from God and not from Satan, "the great deceiver"?
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Quite right. A point actually made in Scripture. In fact, Revelation promises just such a "deceiver."
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 12:21:25 PM EST
In the beggining did not the monks handwrite the bible for distribution, due to no such device as a printing press? Now also was it not the monks who brought the world beer? Is it not possible they wrote what they wanted us to read to further their own power? [beer]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 12:23:51 PM EST
Ya well a well aimd 45-70 would stop that non-since post hast [:D] (just trying to lighten up the thread)
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 12:25:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: We have more current 'books' concerning Jesus than we have concerning Julius Caesar. Was Julius Caesar a 'homosexual'? We have no idea! :)]
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For that matter was Jesus a homosexual? Afterall he did spend an inordinate amount of time hanging around with a bunch of guys!!
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 1:41:07 PM EST
Jesus is a modern myth. That's why...
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 2:05:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 2:31:12 PM EST
I don't know about Jesus, but god hates fags... [url]http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html[/url] They have some interesting mp3s there. Click on "A Message To The Nation In The Wake Of The World Trade Center/Pentagon Tragedy - The Rod Of God Hath Smitten Fag America!"
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 2:34:17 PM EST
[img]http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/Signs_SLC_2001.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/This_Way_To_Hell_SLC_2001.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/Park5_Memorial_Day_2001.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 2:43:12 PM EST
And you want us to believe that these people are representative of Christans? cheap and ignorant[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 2:44:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By nightstalker: What if a man in shining garments appeared tomorrow hovering in the air above a great city and declared to all that he was sent to us by God; and that as a credential of his claim he would perform any miracle that was asked of him? And suppose that he was asked to make the sun do figure eights in the sky for precisely twenty six minutes, beginning at noon on the following day. And supposing he accomplished that. Would we believe him? Well, I think that for a while all would believe, all those who saw what he had done. But after a week or so, I fear only those of [b]good will[/b] would still believe; all the others would be talking of autosuggestion, mass hysteria, mass hypnosis, coincidence, unknown forces and the like. It is not what we see in the sky that helps; it is what is in the heart: a right hope, a good will. From the Ninth Configuration by Wm. Peter Blatty. He goes on to suggest that it is better to have faith from an inner conviction than from the undeniable senses which, if ignored would be damning to the soul.
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I'd pump a couple of mags of .223 into him and if he survives, I'd be at least impressed. I still wouldn't believe he's the "GOD."
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 3:03:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By a2carbine: And you want us to believe that these people are representative of Christans? cheap and ignorant[rolleyes]
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Christians do not hate fags? I've always thought that they condemned the queer?!
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