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Posted: 11/7/2001 7:44:15 PM EST
This is not to bash anyones Religion or anything like that. I don't want a flame war or I'll just delete this. Ok now all of the people that are going to read this are earthier shooters or want to get in to shooting and WE all love American (I hope so.) What I'd like to know should Religion's that do not belive in gun's or use of force like Quaker and Amish still be drafted because they are American's citizens and they have all the same right as us. Or do you think we have to respect there Religion and let them be?
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 7:52:42 PM EST
Its called "consiencious [sp] objector status". Alvin York tried it and ya know what happened to him. I don't think belonging to a certain religion automatically gives you a deferment. Besides we don't have the draft yet.
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 7:54:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/7/2001 7:51:12 PM EST by Silver_Surfer]
I think they should do their part. Theres a lot of jobs they could do, see-bees(construction) cook(every ones gota eat) Mash, ect. but they should get drafted like the rest of us. I would'nt force anyone to fight if they dont want to(freedom of choice?) buts theirs a price to freedom.
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 7:56:12 PM EST
I agree with SS.
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 8:02:21 PM EST
Current policy in the armed forces right now. If you are Jewish and your number comes up to go to Saudi, You dont have to go. Being jewish you have no safe haven among the "Friendly Host Nations" They will not make you go.
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 8:04:56 PM EST
if they were exempt from the draft because of religion, it would give all the hippies and chickensh_ts a great excuse. then they wouldn't have to run to canada. draft em if need be, but put em somewhere in the rear puching papers.
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 8:19:14 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 8:21:34 PM EST
Is there an existing religion that does not have some kind of "commandment" such as "Thou shalt not kill"? I'm curious. If there is, what is the religion? Excluding on the basis of religious beliefs would not make for much of an army, I'd say.
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 8:28:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By AR-15gal: Is there an existing religion that does not have some kind of "commandment" such as "Thou shalt not kill"? I'm curious. If there is, what is the religion? Excluding on the basis of religious beliefs would not make for much of an army, I'd say.
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Quaker I know of they will not even let a gun in there house because it is a show of force. They are some of the nicest people you could ever meet. Now I'm not to sure about the Amish but hell they still don't drive cars or have indoor plumbing. I can ask my uncle about that he lived around some of them for about 3 years. And also the Jewish thing that they would get drafted why is that? They had a lot of them in WWII but maybe this is only for the draft?
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 8:35:50 PM EST
No man who refuses to bear arms in defense of his nation can give a sound reason why he should be allowed to live in a free country" T. Roosevelt Have to admit, it makes sense.
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 8:39:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/7/2001 8:34:51 PM EST by ArmdLbrl]
How would you make them do anything? They would just lie there... Anyone who beleves that one of the Ten Commandments that Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai is "Thou shall not kill" is technicaly in error. The correct translation is "Thou shall not commit MURDER" a very different concept- and it was generally agreed at the time that it only applied to killing another who had accepted the Covanent- another child of Isreal Cause look what they did shortly after- went to war with the Cainnenites. "Thou shall not kill" was a deliberate mistranslation by later day priests who served authoritarian monarchs and wanted to turn their people into SHEEP...
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 8:59:36 PM EST
yes, and they should draft women too there are non-combat positions that can be filled by women and objectors of violence, thus freeing people who are willing to fight to go fight
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 10:11:21 PM EST
Where's the option button for "the draft is unnecessary"?
Link Posted: 11/7/2001 10:26:21 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 2:09:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/8/2001 2:14:05 AM EST by Boom Stick]
Originally Posted By AR-15gal: Is there an existing religion that does not have some kind of "commandment" such as "Thou shalt not kill"? I'm curious. If there is, what is the religion?
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Actually, the proper translation is [red]"Thou stalt not [b]murder[/b]"[/red] I served four years in the military, and was in Iraq with the 24th ID when we pounded saddam. I enjoyed my time in, but there's no way I'd join now unless I got drafted, for two reasons......POOR MANAGEMENT AND QUALITY CONTROL! Promotion is based less on intelligence and more on physical ability. Politicaly correct minions have just about emasculated the military. Budget cuts, personel cuts and base closures have shrunk our ability. The final proof that standards and expectations are lower than ever, [b]going AWOL has no consequence anymore![/b] Most of the time, you get slapped on the wrist and they send you home with a general discharge! ...and the change to berets.... I'm sorry, but berets should be reserved to identify the more elite soldier. I guess everybody can be special now. [puke] Anyhoo....If one is drafted into the military, you are put into a position that requires duty and obligation. To shoot someone in battle is something that I do not believe falls under murder. If you have no choice and your country puts you there, it's either shoot or get shot. Simple.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 3:26:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/8/2001 3:22:26 AM EST by a3kid]
Originally Posted By Silver_Surfer: I think they should do their part. Theres a lot of jobs they could do, see-bees(construction) cook(every ones gota eat) Mash, ect. but they should get drafted like the rest of us. I would'nt force anyone to fight if they dont want to(freedom of choice?) buts theirs a price to freedom.
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I agree whole heartedly. There are a lot of things that go on besides firing guns. During a time of war like this, or a ground war, what is the ratio of support personnel to combat troops?? edited to add: Minefield clearing comes to mind! This would help seperate those who are [b]afraid[/b] to do their duty from those who have religious convictions that cause them to believe killing during a war is wrong.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 4:22:53 AM EST
My wife's best friend was a medic in Vietnam because he would not bear arms. He was killed in the first 30 days of his tour. We still go to Philly's memorial to honor his service to his fellow man, and country.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 5:59:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/8/2001 5:54:16 AM EST by AR-15gal]
I stand corrected on the commandment....Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder.... My point there was [b]NOT[/b] in favor of religious exemption. I am not familiar with religions other than the one in which I was raised. I am curious if there is any religion that does [b]NOT[/b], in some form, say that it is wrong to kill. Just asking a question. Anyone know the answer? I was just thinking that if most or all religions say that you shouldn't kill, there would be no one left to fight the battle. My personal opinion is that if you live in this country and enjoy the freedoms here, it is your duty to protect and defend those freedoms, no matter what your religion. That's not to say that every American is suited to fight on the front lines. There are many different capacities in which each American could serve their country. There's a job for everyone, and everyone should be willing to do their part. [i](Edited because my train of thought jumped off the track at some point)[/i]
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 10:04:10 AM EST
Where is Grandman when you need him? I'd like to see what he has to say about this.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 10:42:29 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 10:49:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/8/2001 10:44:12 AM EST by ISMO]
Sorry but I just don't see how people that refuse to defend thier country should have the same rights as those that do. It's off the wall, but if you are not physically/mentally handicapped and you refuse to sign up for the draft you should not: - be allowed to vote - be elligible for any Govt aid (school loans, welfare, HUD, etc) - be allowed gun ownership - be allowed any govt office Sure, you are free to choose not to fight, but it should come with a cost. Since those that do serve thier country are potentially giving up thier lives I don't see this as a particularly heavy burden for those who refuse to serve the country that gives them the privaledge of choosing not to fight.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 11:47:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By ISMO: Sorry but I just don't see how people that refuse to defend thier country should have the same rights as those that do. It's off the wall, but if you are not physically/mentally handicapped and you refuse to sign up for the draft you should not: - be allowed to vote - be elligible for any Govt aid (school loans, welfare, HUD, etc) - be allowed gun ownership - be allowed any govt office Sure, you are free to choose not to fight, but it should come with a cost. Since those that do serve thier country are potentially giving up thier lives I don't see this as a particularly heavy burden for those who refuse to serve the country that gives them the privaledge of choosing not to fight.
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This is assinine and discriminatory. No direct flame or criticism / personal attack meant to the author. [:)] Just the idea, though. I signed my Selective Service card with pride, and if drafted, I would serve to the best of my ability. But what you propose is, according to the layout of our Constitution, discriminatory. Just because someone refuses to take up arms (A form of protest, as protected by the Constitution we profess to serve) they should not be treated like a second class citizen. These people may in their daily lives do more for this country sitting at home than they ever would playing cannon fodder as a soldier in the field. And then again, maybe not. Should we deny women these things? After all, they don't have to register with Selective Service.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 11:59:47 AM EST
Good point Matt, women should be held to the same std's as the men. Make 'em sign up for the draft! I am for total equality, regardless of race, sex, religion, or sexual preference. That's what America is all abt, equal opportunity. Cannon fodder huh? Interesting way to put it. Since there are abt 20 support folks for every "cannon fodder" soldier in the field there is plenty of opportunity for everyone. Heck, some might even get a career out of it if they can get an MOS that trains them. I would not be making the $'s I am today if the military hadn't taught me computers. Each to thier own opinion, another one of those great things abt being American. God Bless America.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 12:03:13 PM EST
Suppose that someone's religious opposition to war is so strong that they refuse to even pay any federal taxes that might be used to finance a war. Should that person be treated like any other tax resister? What if someone with strong anti-abortion beliefs refuses to pay taxes so long as the government funds abortions?
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 12:08:22 PM EST
If they don't want a gun, just give them a pair of boots and send them to the front line....Decoys.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 12:47:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: You know, I will never forget/forgive the cowardly bastards who fled to Canada. It would not be so bad if they had stayed there. They have no business back here. Nixon be damned for amnesty. [soapbox]
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It wasn't Nixon, it was Carter. Get your information straight. "Do what you will, just never mistake the actions of Carter for the actions of Nixon."
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 1:01:49 PM EST
I knew plenty of real heroes who were conscientious objectors, they were called combat medics. You "make them decoys, kill them, deny them Constitutional rights" crowd are a bunch of idiots. They have a right to refuse service due to religious reasons. Should they be drafted? Maybe. If they don't want to go and are members of a religion that is legitamately anti-violence (Quakers, Amish, Mennonites) I don't see why they should be drafted. The Amish have never had to answer the draft, never. You all are also forgetting that the Army hated the draft. They got lazy shitheads who didn't do what they were told, created low morale, and wouldn't fight. The draft is a bad idea. We aren't in a large-scale conventional war, we probably never will be, so the idea of a draft is not very plausible. Besides, plenty of volunteers have been enlisting according to some recruiter friends of mine. "Do what you will, just don't think denying rights to people you don't agree with is any different than the anti-gunners taking away our right to firearms ownership because they don't agree with us."
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 5:22:48 PM EST
War and Honor: War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -John Stewart Mill
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 6:05:43 PM EST
I think you can put the conscietous objectors into hospitals or as corpsman. That is what the Mennonites and Amish did in WWII.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 6:17:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By AR-15gal: Is there an existing religion that does not have some kind of "commandment" such as "Thou shalt not kill"? I'm curious. If there is, what is the religion? Excluding on the basis of religious beliefs would not make for much of an army, I'd say.
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I'm pretty sure that was a miss translation.It actually says do not MURDER.If you are in a mutually agreed upon fight it's not MURDER so it's not a sin.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 6:52:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/8/2001 6:53:52 PM EST by mrraley]
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 8:54:43 PM EST
Glad to see there is no flame war yet. This is a touchy subject and there are many pro/con's to it. I do think everyone men/woman should have to answer to the draft. There are many job's that can be done you have to be done I just hope that the men/woman of today will be like the men/woman who worked on boats, tanks and other military supplies like they did in WWI and WWII.
Link Posted: 11/8/2001 9:05:25 PM EST
I don't think Quakers and Amish people are American citizens,if they are.......I don't know. On one hand I say yes but then again these guys don't know who to fight and may just be in the way. So I gess I say yes if it can be done with f*ing to hole thing up. If they don't like it tell them again how they got to be free and that the Taliban would not let them keep there fram[:D]
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 5:59:40 AM EST
Are we confusing serving the country that gives you your freedoms with the soldier in the field? Definitely, no conscientious objectors in the field. I don't want to share a foxhole with anyone who I can't count on. But serving your country is all sorts of things; customs, air traffic control, any/all hospital jobs, the meriad of mechanics/maintenance jobs required, computers, supply, logistics, forestry service, post office, farmers growing our food. Look at all the folks in the states during WWII building the aircraft, vehicles, ammo, heck everything. Some folks could not go in the military because they were more valuable as an aircraft designer than a fighter pilot. The draft does not necesarily mean slitting throats & flame throwing a hut, so I don't buy the objection. If you are not willing to serve the country that gives you the opportunity to provide the safest environment for your family, then I don't feel they deserve the blanket of protection. Service comes in many forms. Everyone can do something that's vital in some way. At some time we each must take our turn standing at the wall. My father did it before me, I did it before my son, someday I hope he does it for his family. Those that refuse to take thier turn.... why should they get a free ride? Just one guy's opinion.
Link Posted: 11/9/2001 8:37:16 AM EST
But serving your country is all sorts of things; customs, air traffic control, any/all hospital jobs, the meriad of mechanics/maintenance jobs required, computers, supply, logistics, forestry service, post office, farmers growing our food.
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Defined broadly enough, the issue of "service" becomes meaningless. If contributing to the economy is the standard, then that includes almost everyone: webmasters, pastry chefs, topless dancers, et cetera. The reason to have a draft is that an emergency requires [b]lots[/b] of people to do nasty, dangerous jobs for little pay. The usual incentives that make our economy go round won't cause that to happen.
Link Posted: 11/11/2001 12:44:20 PM EST
A lot of people have good points here but let's remember that the sheet have to be washed and the beds have to be made. So there are a lot of jobs out there for the people that do not want or do not belive in killing.
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