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Posted: 10/23/2001 2:53:39 PM EDT
[#1]
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." |
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Posted: 10/23/2001 6:06:41 PM EDT
[#2]
The last time I qualified, with the Nat Guard, the course was a pop-up/knockdown course from 50 to 300 meters. 40 rounds with a minimum score in the mid 20s, 36 and up for expert. Target is a standard military sihloette(can't spell!), any hit should knock it down.
Don in Ohio |
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Posted: 10/23/2001 6:25:37 PM EDT
[#3]
I've heard you don't even have to hit the popups to count as a hit. If you shoot low into the ground just ahead of the target and cause rocks or gravel to spray against the target, it will register as a hit.
I wonder if its possible for a decent target shooter to have problems on that kind of range. Rather than aiming at the same little black dot, you must first aquire the target (and you won't know where or at what range it will popup) then of course hit it in whatever the time frame is. Also consider you're not aiming at a black dot, but a silouette. I've seen the video on the Army website and thats their format. I think the Marines do traditional target shooting to qualify but I could be wrong. HTH |
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Posted: 10/23/2001 7:55:49 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: I've heard you don't even have to hit the popups to count as a hit. If you shoot low into the ground just ahead of the target and cause rocks or gravel to spray against the target, it will register as a hit. I qualified expert in '75. In honesty I did in fact "scare down" the 50 meter target. I "kicked sand" in it's face |
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Posted: 10/23/2001 8:09:09 PM EDT
[#5]
In the Navy, you don't even have to qual. But if you want to its barettas and .223 at 25 ft. Pretty sad actually. Me? I go a little beyond that when I play on the weekends.
[img]wsphotofews.excite.com/021/ck/9N/iv/S827503.jpg[/img] See the rest at the Boone, NC shoot thread in "Meetings and Events" and my webshots http://community.webshots.com/user/subvert2 |
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Posted: 10/23/2001 9:42:10 PM EDT
[#6]
subvertz, you bring a new meaning to Admiral Yamamoto's quote that "there would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."
BTW, I don't have first hand experience with this, but two very good shooters that I've met both claimed that the pop-up target course is very much skewed against good shooters. Both claimed that if you hit the target in the middle, after it gets shot-out, the equipment won't register the hit. Either way, I'd still like to see some more info on the qualification. Anyone have any links?z |
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Posted: 10/23/2001 9:50:43 PM EDT
[#7]
All depends on how long you want to live! And what do you think the threats are! If you want to kill the bad guy at 500 yds so he doesnt become a threat, go USMC, and if you want to kill lots of pop up threats at 25 to 100 yds go Army...And if you think it is coo to use a .22 to sim what a real gun sounds like go to the airfarce or navy[;)]
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Posted: 10/23/2001 10:12:18 PM EDT
[#8]
My, times have changed! When I went through Navy Boot Camp (a long time ago!) we shot M1 Garands and .45's.
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Posted: 10/23/2001 10:42:09 PM EDT
[#9]
This is what I did in 1995
after the USMC finally decided on a new course of fire. First a Range Control Officer will have you: demonstate the four condition codes of rifle readiness/safety; recite the safety rules; demonstrate your ability to understand and respond to range commands and demonstrate the following carries: tactical; alert; and the ready. If you fail, you will not be able to shoot. Next, each Marine must BZO their rifle without assistance from a coach. You get two chances to adjust. On the third, all five shots must be in the black of the BZO target. If you fail you will not be allowed to qualify. Next is the KD (known distance) course fired from 200 300 and 500 yards. Hit or miss scoring except at 200 where a hit is one point but a center hit is two. No loop slings allowed except 500 prone slow fire. Once you qualify, you shoot the pass/fail combat course using your BZO. Gas mask relay at 200, practice maintaining a lead on moving targets from 200 and 100, night fire with illumination provided by M203 rounds etc. etc. Oh, and if you happen to go to Okinawa, you might get to do it all in the pouring rain with pre-typhoon crosswinds. |
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Posted: 10/23/2001 10:44:03 PM EDT
[#10]
I never paid attention to the army requirements I always got 40 out of 40
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Posted: 10/23/2001 10:52:03 PM EDT
[#11]
I don't know, but I was at the 200 yard range this summer when an Airforce chick had to check out my "m16." She was exited to be around a rifle she qualified with, and I assume, certified proficient with.
She was amazed it would shoot as far as 200 yards. She must have been one of those 1000" shooters. How often do they shoot at real distances? |
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Posted: 10/23/2001 11:34:45 PM EDT
[#12]
I heard a few Air Force guys talking the other day. I was listening from a distance and their knowledge of firearms was shameful. Then again, if you have an F-16, I guess you don't need to know how to shoot except for if your shot down.
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Posted: 10/23/2001 11:48:21 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Oh, and if you happen to go to Okinawa, you might get to do it all in the pouring rain with pre-typhoon crosswinds. Or when I was there: Range flags on either side of the range blowing in opposite directions. That was fun. I always just tried to shoot when the flags dropped, but it wasn't always easy. SeMPer Fi |
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Posted: 10/24/2001 12:23:59 AM EDT
[#14]
She was amazed it [AR-15] would shoot as far as 200 yards. From a safety point of view, that is scary! Think about it. If she went shooting (ok, so it's not likely) she wouldn't have any idea what an appropriate backstop would be.z |
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Posted: 10/24/2001 7:48:45 AM EDT
[#15]
A couple of points:
- It is hard for the targets to get shot-out, they are made of a material that closes back up after begin shot. - 20 rounds shot from a fighting position(supported), and 20 from prone (unsupported IIRC) Best I ever did was a 36, with a stoppage right out of the gate. The next year with a different M16, barely qualified. There are a couple of guys who usually got 40/40. Here is the question: What is a good shot ? Idea behind the pop-up range is to quickly aquire and hit a torso sized target from 50-300 meters. Sounds good to me. Not until I bought a AR did I start thinking about grouping shots, MOA, can I hit a golf ball at 200 yds, etc... edited to get rid of botched icon... |
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Posted: 10/24/2001 8:38:39 AM EDT
[#16]
Question for you Army guys. The range you qualify on, do any of the pop up targets move? I got to shoot on a couple of them that did back in 95. One of the ranges had 40 targets and the other had 50. Just curious if that's what you qualify on.
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Posted: 10/24/2001 12:04:16 PM EDT
[#17]
The problem with the AF is they see marksmanship training as an inconvienance, you only get to qual every 4 years so a large majority never touch an M16 once they leave basic. Also the instructors " CATAM" are on the most part complete morons.
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Posted: 10/24/2001 12:16:01 PM EDT
[#18]
Last qualification in the Army was Nov. 98 with M4. The targets pop-up in random patterns from 50-300 meters. I will say that several of these targets had large parts of their center mass missing.... Basically you shoot 20 rounds from foxhole and 20 from the prone position. I believe the qualifications went something like..
25-31 Marksman 32-36 Sharpshooter 37-40 Expert And yes you can knock the targets down with spray from rocks, etc... |
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Posted: 10/24/2001 12:41:06 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: I've heard you don't even have to hit the popups to count as a hit. If you shoot low into the ground just ahead of the target and cause rocks or gravel to spray against the target, it will register as a hit. Every year at qualification that point is brought up .I argue, why train yourself to shoot at the ground? Shoot COM like you are trained to do. If the round hits the ground and sprays, getting a hit, lucky you. YOu got a point in spite of being a crap shooter. Don't TRAIN to do that. I am sure the Afghans will wonder why we're putting so many rounds into their sdandals if that became an SOP for qualifying......... |
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Posted: 10/24/2001 12:46:19 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: - It is hard for the targets to get shot-out, they are made of a material that closes back up after begin shot. Yeah, but if you don't bother replacing the ivan all summer, sooner or later it'll have more holes than material, and in fact the rounds WILL go through without registrering. Just depends how dedicated the full time civilian range staff and the unit running the range that day are ,to ensure that those substandard pop-ups get changed before rounds go down range. I've been on ranges where the range committee didn't bother finding out which pop-ups weren't coming up until shooters had already gone through that lane. Pitiful. |
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Posted: 10/24/2001 1:22:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Every year at qualification that point is brought up .I argue, why train yourself to shoot at the ground? Shoot COM like you are trained to do. If the round hits the ground and sprays, getting a hit, lucky you. YOu got a point in spite of being a crap shooter. Don't TRAIN to do that. I am sure the Afghans will wonder why we're putting so many rounds into their sdandals if that became an SOP for qualifying......... I never advocated shooting at the ground. I pointed out a major flaw in the technology - that you could miss yet still register a hit. They really must do better with range equipment maintanence. It undermines shooter confidence when what should be a hit results in a miss recorded, plus i'd be pissed if I missed Expert by 1 "miss". |
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Posted: 10/24/2001 1:54:31 PM EDT
[#22]
When I was in the Marines it was 500 meters,,,not yards 500 meters is approximatly 550 yards
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Posted: 10/24/2001 1:55:11 PM EDT
[#23]
When I was in the Marines it was 500 meters,,,not yards 500 meters is approximatly 550 yards,,,not to shabby with iron sites and a A1
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Posted: 10/24/2001 2:11:04 PM EDT
[#24]
I qualified Expert twice in the Army. never missed the 300meter target but did miss the 50 meter twice....well thats what you use the entrenching tool for at close quarters anyhow.
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Posted: 10/24/2001 2:11:47 PM EDT
[#25]
Ah-yes; AF CATM guys. I had a nice argument with one when he wouldn't award me expert on the M9 because he couldn't count the right number of holes in the target. I kept putting rounds through that 4" empty space I had at center of mass after the first 20 rds, but he didn't think so.
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Posted: 10/24/2001 3:10:32 PM EDT
[#26]
The Army has mutliple courses for qualification. The Pop-Up is my faviorite. Though when I was in the Guard we had a 200M course (all targets were E type silloughets at 200M) we just had to keep changing shooting positions. All qualification course have time limits and magazine changes.
There is also teh Schedule C qualification courses. There is a 15M (50 foot) version that can be shot on an indoor range with a .22 conversion kit, and a 25M version to be shot outdoors using 5.56. They have scaled targets from 50M to 300M. The Schedule C does have higher standards as you need to get a score of 38-40 for Expert, 33-37 for sharpshooter, and 26-32 for marksman, 25 & below you are unqualified. There are 2 stages, each stage has 10 targets, you must put 2 round in each target (ONLY 2 rounds per target count). You have 2 minutes to shoot 20 rounds. You should have 2 magazine with 10 rounds in each (requireing a magazine change) I have the Schedule C courses at the Maryland AR15 Shooters Site available for downloading. The target files are MS word documents (the score sheet is an Excel file). Just download and print them. [url]http://communities.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/files.msnw?fc_p=%2FTargets%2FUS%20Army%20Qualification%20Course&fc_a=0[/url] P.S. I have shot on a Marine Pop up range. They do have moving targets. Made it much more interesting. |
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