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3/20/2017 5:03:23 PM
Posted: 10/23/2001 3:50:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2001 4:34:16 AM EDT by natez]
I have been thinking about making one of the G3 or CETME clones my next purchase. I do have a few questions, if anyone has the time. It seems like Century Arms and Hesse receivers are the most popular. Which is the best receiver to build one of these on? I have heard that steel receivers are the best. I have noticed that the G3 clones usually seem to have the HK diopter iron sights (which I prefer), and the CETMEs usually have more simplistic notch sights. Is this the way they are designed? I have seen "G3 parts kits" all over. What parts (besides the receiver) have to be US made to comply with ATF regs? Which FA parts have to be replaced to comply with ATF regs, besides the flash supressor? I saw several clones (especially the MP5 clones) with S-E-F trigger groups, which I thought was verboten (and wouldn't that make them FA?). How about price? I have seen assembled weapons in Shotgun News in the 4-500 range but last weekend at the gunshow, CETMEs were 7-800 and the G3s were around 1K. MP5 clones were 1K. Is this just temporary inflation because of current fears?
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 6:09:36 AM EDT
My avice on any HK clone is don't do it. Especially with the name Hesse on it. I am sure that there are some out there that will run great. (subjective) But in my experiences at shoots or at different gun ranges around Texas that I have been to, where people have been shooting a clone of any kind, Hesse * Speshul weapuns etc. I ALWAYS notice some type of failure. Failure to feed, failure to eject that causes jamming. Unless you are or live near a competent HK smith, my advice would be to stay away. I am not an expert on these weapons, just my opinion and previous experience with one of those weapons that I never should have bought.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 6:24:59 AM EDT
Instant gratification is no substitute for permanent satisfaction. If you want a G3 or Cetme, get a real HK, cause then you won't be fighting the gun and kicking yourself over the money you sunk in the clone that could have gone to what you want. Good luck, Ice
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 6:25:29 AM EDT
Don't waste time and money on Century, Federal, Hesse or Special Weapons. And CURRENT Springdield SAR8s are nothing more than CAI guns. A few people like their CETMEs but I've seen some that can't even get the line of sight and point of impact to agree. If you are going to do this right, get a FMP reciver (HK contract) and a REAL HK Part Kit in NEW condition (Not easy to find or cheap) and send it to a REAL HK gunsmith (Of the 3 in the entire country only one will work on contract receivers) and get it done correctly. You will not be able to do this for $400.00-600.00. It will cost "slightly" less than a preban original HK but will have the advantage of being a NEW gun. And a word of warning, SOG(Southern Ohio Guns) is advertising Portugese HK contract rifles assembled IN Portugal on HK equipment. DON'T BELIEVE IT. Only the receiver meets these claims, the rifle is a very used part kit assembled by those morons at Century Arms.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 7:04:34 AM EDT
I've been thinking of getting a FMP recevier and a G3 kit from IO. There have been up and down reports on the IO kit, so we'll see. From the looks of it this is a pretty challenging project for building. I agree that most should go to a HK smith. I have researching this for awhile and think I can do it. I'm thinking the first one I'll do will be on an FMP receiver with the trunion and cocking tube welded on. I have a shop that is pretty well set up press, MIG, TIG etc. So after some experience I think I could handle welding trunions. A jig would be a necessity. See www.hk91.com for more info.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 7:13:37 AM EDT
I have a SW cast receiver CETME that I LOVE! [^] It will consistantly make near-moa groups at 100 yds and the only jams I've had are mag related. The CETME "paddle sight" isn't that bad. IT"S A BATTLE SIGHT!! I have had only two problems......a split case stuck in the chamber, and the fact that it is perhaps the DIRTIEST shooting weapon I have ever owned. Buy one and enjoy! Jim
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 7:22:33 AM EDT
I recently purchased one, as did my father and uncle. 2 are of the Hessie design, and 1 is a Century type. All 3 work just fine. I have put 300 rounds of the finest South African ammo I can find and not one problem. They are hard on the cases, but not nearly as bad as our HK 93. The rifles are very well built. The welds are every bit as good as the HK 93 we have. All 3 came from SOG at a cost of $395 each. The accuracy is not as good as it could be, but it is OK. I have not benched it for accurate numbers though. The rifle is not nearly as good as my M1A, but it is good enough for shooting old pieces of junk. If you are looking for a match rifle, do not buy one of these, if you are looking for something to kill dirt and shoot up old cars, this rifle is more than capable. The Hessie rifles have the HK drum type sights which appear to have some capability for adjustment, the Century rifle has the flip type sight. The Hessie receiver is stamped, and the Century is cast. I am pleased with mine, but would not buy a 2nd.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 8:45:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By comp1911: I've been thinking of getting a FMP recevier and a G3 kit from IO. There have been up and down reports on the IO kit, so we'll see. From the looks of it this is a pretty challenging project for building. I agree that most should go to a HK smith. I have researching this for awhile and think I can do it. I'm thinking the first one I'll do will be on an FMP receiver with the trunion and cocking tube welded on. I have a shop that is pretty well set up press, MIG, TIG etc. So after some experience I think I could handle welding trunions. A jig would be a necessity. See www.hk91.com for more info.
View Quote
Here is the problem. HK rifles are pressed and welded in one step. In this process the barrel, receiver and trunion are done at the same time. If you have HK presses and tools this is simple. If you are doing this with barrel vices, hand welders, jigs, etc. it is guesswork. Special Weapons uses c clamps for christ sake. This means you will get variations, some will be "on" and some will "miss the barn." This is the problem with the majority of clones. Hit and miss assembly. In addition US made receivers are NOT heat treated to the same HK standards. The Fed Arms MILLED is the only one that will "probably" hold up. I have already seen Hesse receivers with stress fractures. These rifles have barely been out 2 years. This does not imply a long service life. Also "most" shooters raving about their G3 clones haven't owned real HKs, or any other quality firearms for that matter. So I guess compared to an SKS a CETME clone is a good rifle.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 9:37:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2001 9:34:58 AM EDT by Cummins_4x4]
I am very happy with my CETME. I purchased a CETME from SOG,this is the model with sheetmetal reciever and HK91 type rear sight. I have shot this weapon after careful disassembly and slight tweaking to maximize its performance. I feel out of the box it may have had issues that would have been nonexistant had there been better assemby practices followed. Gun wasn't cleaned and was very stiff.It seems to have been assembled from new parts though except for forearm and buttstock which I refinished (I'm very picky). I went through and totally cleaned weapon from top to bottom, addressed areas with dremel tool where needed, Tuff-Glided all parts then cycled action several hundred times before going to range. This rascal shoots! And I mean quite well, holds a better group than my last HK 91 ! Yes thats right, holds better groups! I can definetly reccomend this gun. A real value if you are willing to clean well and cycle a little prior to actual firing. I have looked at other non-sheetmetal recievers, I wouldn't have them. I also want the HK91 type rear sight so go with Southern Ohio Gun.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 9:52:08 AM EDT
I have a CIA CETME with the Special Weapons receiver. Not a bad rifle at all. It surely is a "gratification" gun though. I have 12 magazines for it as well and am thinking of selling it off to finance my desire for an M1 Garand AND a FAL
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 9:56:50 AM EDT
Stay away from clones!!!If you want a G3 than save up for the G3.I purchased a century G3 clone and the receiver lasted about 700 rounds,and was quite a painfull experiance just getting to 700 rounds.And I had a hard time keeping 10 out of 20 rounds on a paper plate at 30 yards,and this comming from someone who routinely can hit prairie dogs out past 1000 yards,so it wasnt the shooter.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 11:53:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By comp1911: I've been thinking of getting a FMP recevier and a G3 kit from IO. There have been up and down reports on the IO kit, so we'll see. From the looks of it this is a pretty challenging project for building. I agree that most should go to a HK smith. I have researching this for awhile and think I can do it. I'm thinking the first one I'll do will be on an FMP receiver with the trunion and cocking tube welded on. I have a shop that is pretty well set up press, MIG, TIG etc. So after some experience I think I could handle welding trunions. A jig would be a necessity. See www.hk91.com for more info.
View Quote
Here is the problem. HK rifles are pressed and welded in one step. In this process the barrel, receiver and trunion are done at the same time. If you have HK presses and tools this is simple. If you are doing this with barrel vices, hand welders, jigs, etc. it is guesswork. Special Weapons uses c clamps for christ sake. This means you will get variations, some will be "on" and some will "miss the barn." This is the problem with the majority of clones. Hit and miss assembly. In addition US made receivers are NOT heat treated to the same HK standards. The Fed Arms MILLED is the only one that will "probably" hold up. I have already seen Hesse receivers with stress fractures. These rifles have barely been out 2 years. This does not imply a long service life. Also "most" shooters raving about their G3 clones haven't owned real HKs, or any other quality firearms for that matter. So I guess compared to an SKS a CETME clone is a good rifle.
View Quote
Thanks for the input Steyr. Can you elaborate on the barreling process? In my reading this is a very hazy area for me. I had assumed to press the barrel into the trunion until proper headspace, then drill and pin. I have never even played with the rifle, so I am not sure of the details on doing such a feat. One critical item will be sight indexing. Which seems to be the trouble with the SOG G3 Clone. With the right tools, time and thougth along with some trial and error anything is possible. You see that is my hobby. More then "guns" is the mechanical side of things and "do it yourself" or as some say "WECSOG". By trade/profession, I am a mechanical engineer (for what that is worth). I can afford a genuine HK91, (well, the Visa is hurting from this summer's hot rod project! [8D] ) But the project itself is my drive. I also have access to equpment that most don't besides my own shop. In closing, I am in agreement with you on HK Clone quality and that only a true HK will do. Yet, for me its not about the rifle itself its the design, construction, the engineering if you will. Thanks again for the input. Maybe some day I'll cough up the dough for a real G3.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 12:09:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By comp1911: Thanks for the input Steyr. Can you elaborate on the barreling process? In my reading this is a very hazy area for me. I had assumed to press the barrel into the trunion until proper headspace, then drill and pin. I have never even played with the rifle, so I am not sure of the details on doing such a feat. One critical item will be sight indexing. Which seems to be the trouble with the SOG G3 Clone. With the right tools, time and thougth along with some trial and error anything is possible. You see that is my hobby. More then "guns" is the mechanical side of things and "do it yourself" or as some say "WECSOG". By trade/profession, I am a mechanical engineer (for what that is worth). I can afford a genuine HK91, (well, the Visa is hurting from this summer's hot rod project! [8D] ) But the project itself is my drive. I also have access to equpment that most don't besides my own shop. In closing, I am in agreement with you on HK Clone quality and that only a true HK will do. Yet, for me its not about the rifle itself its the design, construction, the engineering if you will. Thanks again for the input. Maybe some day I'll cough up the dough for a real G3.
View Quote
Not being an expert gunsmith myself I cannot elaborate in technical detail. But there are two critical pitfalls to homebuild without a HK press. First is lineup dead on. Getting receiver, barrel and trunion to agree in a single step is not an easy task. It it leans in any direction(damn gravity), even a couple millimeters this translates to inches downrange. If the final rifle is off center to be zero, windage and elevation adjustments present problems. Second is not just the headspace but cocking tube length. Try to break open a clone. More than 1/2 of them DO NOT disengage the rollers when the cocking handle is opened BEFORE being pulled back. This is why so many shooters now include a rubber mallet in their range bag. I've actually seen guys with sore hands open them against the shooting bench cause they just can pull the action open by hand anymore. For thse reasons, and many others, I can't recommend clones or home assembly. If a person cannot afford to send this gun to be built right they really can't afford it at all. Plenty of shit I don't have cause I can't afford it. If you want a project gun, build a FAL.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 12:34:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2001 12:30:01 PM EDT by comp1911]
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: For thse reasons, and many others, I can't recommend clones or home assembly. If a person cannot afford to send this gun to be built right they really can't afford it at all. Plenty of shit I don't have cause I can't afford it. If you want a project gun, build a FAL.
View Quote
Thanks again for the info. I'll have to take a close look at the IO kit when it arrives and see it I think it is possible. Until I see how it works, I cannot comment on much else [%|] As far as building and FAL goes. Got the T-shirt times 3. No challenge anymore :) Hell AR's are like legos now. Thanks again Steyr, I'll reevaluate this one before I order a receiver. Or I'll send it off to a smith.
Link Posted: 10/23/2001 12:46:53 PM EDT
I have a Sfld SAR8...the cast alum reciever, green furniture, pistol grip. Bought it new 2 yrs ago. It shoots 2" groups all day long (@ 100 yds and iron sights, and my poor eyesight) with Hirtenberger or the Radaway Green Surplus ammo. Never had a jam of any sort. Biggest problem (if you call it one) is the thing throws the brass about 30 yards away. The benchresters seem to frown upon the brass flinging by them...good or bad you decide ;). This rifles main duty is killing "cans" set up on timed courses my buddies and I run and gun thru. We mainly use AR type stuff...but the green SAR8 is nicknamed "big dog" cause the .308 only needs to hit in front of the cans to take out several at once. The sound is also significantly louder and deeper than the .223. Basically this thing is run hard until we have let the AR's cool off or have gotten tired of it beating us up. Again it is for FUN! and alot less money than a real HK...
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