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Link Posted: 10/21/2007 12:40:26 PM EDT
I just perused both the Norinco site and the Iranian site.
The Chinese have at least made their own rifle (likely a bullpup AR18, though) general issue.
Literally everything on the Iranian menu is a ripoff of other designs. "If it ain't broke....?"
Forget a ground war anyway, bomb them into submission, sweep through the cities razing everything, repeat as necessary. Does Iran have anything we want, anyway?
Link Posted: 10/21/2007 12:53:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:

FWIW: i dont buy anything made in chicom--simply b/c its not worth the price its being sold for and it never works or lasts

i'll spend my cash elsewhere


LOL then throw away your computer. Guess where most of it was made.
Link Posted: 10/21/2007 12:54:31 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By hdbiker1:
RULE #1: Never underestimate the opposition!


+1
Link Posted: 10/21/2007 12:58:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sonrider657:
The Chinese COPYING other products?!

That's all Asian companies do - rip off the ideas of Americans and Europeans, make them dirt cheap with slave labor and steal profits away from the inventors. That is why I avoid Asian-made products whenever possible.

Why bother spending all that time and research when you can just "hide in the shadows" and copy stuff, besides, it takes a lot of man hours to 'keep a man down'
Link Posted: 10/21/2007 1:29:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2007 1:29:39 PM EDT by Mateba]

Originally Posted By Not_A_Llama:

Originally Posted By EternalVigilance:

Well, while is generalizations about "Asia" might not have been 100% politically correct and offensive to people from korea or japan (oh whoops, looks like you were offensive too, better that you explicitly name every other country from "asia" as well), or offensive to the producers in asia who actually do play by the rules everyone else does, the post was making a valid point.

China provides a lot of shit on the cheap because A) they steal shit, especially intelletucal property and patents and B) if the product isn't being produced in a slave-labor camp, then the employees are there voluntarily and making a whopping $1 an hour.


Since they cannot compete in a fair free-market, they have to fucking steal and enslave and employ communism........communism being exactly why they can't fucking compete in the first place.

You don't really know too much about the world outside this country, do you?

China makes cheap shit because that's what people will pay to have made. China can limbo lower than anyone else lower. A notable example is the number of optics factories in China where you can get telescopes made with everything from injection-molded acrylic lenses (half cent), on up to exotic crystal apochromatic sets (tens of thousands of dollars). That's an incredibly dynamic range, and it's kicking our ass.

Chinese factories also wield the ability to pay low wages, because people will take it. It's not slave labor, any more than our domestic working poor are "forced" into minimum wage jobs they can't escape. The condition of the Chinese laborer is better than our urban scum, too. With dorm housing on site, provided food, and a commute of about 5 minutes on foot, you'd be surprised how cheap it is to live. Chinese factories are thousands of times more free-market competitive than ours, and it fucking shows. Free market will never fail to reveal the laggers, and a survey of goods in your house will verify the situation.

China's better at free market than anyone else out there, and it pisses people off here. Our factories have to pay high because labor unions and other socialist/communist rubbish raise pay expectations for the lower classes. We resort to industry protectionism (tariffs, subsidies) that's costing our country billions of dollars in sanctions and reduced growth. We've transitioned so heavily to a "service" economy that we stand no chance of ever having an effective and legitimate mass-manufacturing capability again. We're getting the shit pounded out of us, and rednecks are too busy flag-waving to ever see it.

Pick up a book on the shameful situation of our treasury bonds, and see the laughability of your preaching. If you can understand the systemic economics of the situation..


This statement pretty much explains 90% of the fallacies perpetuated by the bubbas and tinfoilers here.
Link Posted: 10/21/2007 1:36:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2007 1:43:45 PM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By EternalVigilance:

Originally Posted By EndofGoogle:
/\/\/\/\/\

I've seen canadian posters with those types of Norinco AR-clones, they have those funky sextoy'ish looking handguards.



Originally Posted By Not_A_Llama:

Originally Posted By EndofGoogle:

Originally Posted By sonrider657:
The Chinese COPYING other products?!

That's all Asian companies do - rip off the ideas of Americans and Europeans, make them dirt cheap with slave labor and steal profits away from the inventors. That is why I avoid Asian-made products whenever possible.



Yeah, its not like any of the copies and work done by budding engineers manage to turn out better with further RD, thats why Toyota and Nissan aren't on every American corner, damn rice burners... Also, I didn't know Japan/Korea currently uses slave labor, care to show me where you found this? In addition, how does making an AR clone take profit away from the original mfg (is Bushmaster, CMMG and others paying Stoner for each rifle sold?).

Whoa, there. Just simma. Nobody said you had to bring logic into the argument here.


Yikes, I almost got carried away there. I guess as forum-liberal I must refrain from being critical of people's mental shortcomings and local cultural bias's when in post-form, its not PC



Well, while is generalizations about "Asia" might not have been 100% politically correct and offensive to people from korea or japan (oh whoops, looks like you were offensive too, better that you explicitly name every other country from "asia" as well), or offensive to the producers in asia who actually do play by the rules everyone else does, the post was making a valid point.

China provides a lot of shit on the cheap because A) they steal shit, especially intelletucal property and patents and B) if the product isn't being produced in a slave-labor camp, then the employees are there voluntarily and making a whopping $1 an hour.


Since they cannot compete in a fair free-market, they have to fucking steal and enslave and employ communism........communism being exactly why they can't fucking compete in the first place.



Oh, you again...

The Chinese can compete very well - as can the Indians, Mexicans, and other 3rd world nations, because their COST OF LIVING is so much lower than a 1st world nation...

If the Chinese can find people to VOLUNTARILY work for $5/day (once a 'good wage' in the USA, BTW) then that's the FREE MARKET at work...

The jobs these people do require minimal skills and minimal education. So they should be paid minimal wages because there are SO MANY people qualified to do the job that the employer will get willing workers at that wage...

Basic free market economics...

If there are 1.2 billion people qualified to do YOUR job you ain't getting paid jack shit

If there are only 100, you get paid millions (*cough* CEOs *cough*)....

The Chinese are doing us a favor by removing economically wasteful jobs from our economy. Yeah, it sucks for the folks with a 3rd-world education and skill set... But that's too bad - we aren't socialists, and the purpose of an employer is to make money, not care for employees beyond what is needed to stay in business.

Ranting about Chinese wages and the 'free market' is absurd...

You fit right in with the world socialist folks, who want every worker, world-wide to be 'entitled' to a 'living wage' by American standards, at the expense of everyone with the skill to EARN such a wage...
Link Posted: 10/21/2007 1:40:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EndofGoogle:

Originally Posted By sta1treeman:
I bet ammamaadinaajihad(sp) has them convinced that allah made them and their equipment bullet proof, that's why those airsoft pellets bounce off everything.


They'll be shocked when they figure out he is full of shit.


Your seriously thinking they'd fight US forces in uniform with a conventional army and not simply "vanish" and turn Iran into Iraq 2: Shia Harder, especially after seeing similar "units" from Iraq get rolled in all the Gulf Wars?


The problem with this theory is that they lack any significant foreign backers....

Sure, folks will sell them weapons... But Iran is the primary 'sustainer' of the insurgency in Iraq (well, besides Al Queda, but unlike AQ, the Iranians have managed to survive without being labeled as 'Public Enemy #1' by all the other factions)....

Iran does not have anyone to do to them what they and Syria have done to Iraq...

And any military action in Iran that is not based on a conventional ground invasion IS A WASTE OF TIME....
Link Posted: 10/21/2007 1:44:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Codename46:
www.norincoequipment.cn/detail_product_English.jsp?productid=495&cssid=1

OMFG 7.62 SNIPPING RIFLE!!!!!



I saw that on Norinco's site too. I got a good chuckle out of it.

What is it going to do, reach out 700 yards and cut you with a pair of scissors?
Link Posted: 10/21/2007 1:58:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2007 1:59:55 PM EDT by Girlieman]

Originally Posted By R6551GNR:
Looks like they re finished the rifles.

All of the Chinese CQ's in Canada are finished in a bad copy of that old school Colt Gray.


Yeah.. they look like crap, but they work!
More than once I've had to lend out my CQ to some guy at a match who's colt had broken down...
Not bad for a rifle I paid $500 for new...
It's only limititation was its 1:12 twist and its unimportability into the US....
Link Posted: 10/21/2007 1:59:27 PM EDT
Those are probably Airsoft version of Chinese knock-offs of ARs.
Link Posted: 10/21/2007 2:16:47 PM EDT
How about this:

5.56mm BUTT EXTENDABLE AUTOMATIC RIFLE

Link Posted: 10/21/2007 5:01:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KlubMarcus:

Originally Posted By advntrjnky: remember the Stoner and Robarm AR style weapons that took AK mags, or the foreign weapons familiarization classes of our military. it makes sense that they would train with m16 variants.....especially for propaganda purposes! for those of you that say the Iranians (Persians) won't be anything in a fight should look at history. they are one of the oldest civilized societies out their. lumping them in with Arab tribes that were still tribes til the 1950's will be a mistake. advntrjnky
Iran couldn't beat IRAQ! I'd love to go on a war against iran, those guys are going to put up a good show but they're going to get crushed in short order.


They didn't beat Iraq because they just went through a damn revolution.

You seem so eager to go to war with these guys. I wonder if perhaps you'll have boots on the ground if we do in fact go to war with Iran.

Link Posted: 10/21/2007 5:13:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2007 5:13:28 PM EDT by Rampant_Colt]
Vulcan>Hesse>Norinco



Link Posted: 10/21/2007 6:07:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sic_ness:
I just perused both the Norinco site and the Iranian site.
The Chinese have at least made their own rifle (likely a bullpup AR18, though) general issue.
Literally everything on the Iranian menu is a ripoff of other designs. "If it ain't broke....?"
Forget a ground war anyway, bomb them into submission, sweep through the cities razing everything, repeat as necessary. Does Iran have anything we want, anyway?


I heard they make good rugs and even have some that will fly!!
Link Posted: 10/21/2007 6:13:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ABNAK:
Just saw a Fox News clip on Iran running it's mouth as usual about a response to any possible attack. On the clip it showed some "high speed" Iranian units disembarking from helicopters and carrying what appear to be M16's. One close-up showed the telltale funky handguards of the ChiCom "CQ" rifle, which is a full-sized M16 knockoff. Now, I'm sure it's no great revelation that the Iranians have shit from China. However, I thought it was interesting to see a country you would expect to see armed with HK's or AK's armed with an AR clone.


Maybe they made some improvements.
Link Posted: 10/21/2007 8:41:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Miahdude:

Originally Posted By Codename46:
www.norincoequipment.cn/detail_product_English.jsp?productid=495&cssid=1

OMFG 7.62 SNIPPING RIFLE!!!!!



I saw that on Norinco's site too. I got a good chuckle out of it.

What is it going to do, reach out 700 yards and cut you with a pair of scissors?


Just a trim, please...and thin it out some on top, okay? LOL
Link Posted: 10/21/2007 9:28:48 PM EDT
can they shoot wolf ??
Link Posted: 10/21/2007 10:00:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bodie:
They know that Infidel Rifles are the best


Yup..
Link Posted: 10/22/2007 11:45:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RAINBOW6:

Originally Posted By ABNAK:
Just saw a Fox News clip on Iran running it's mouth as usual about a response to any possible attack. On the clip it showed some "high speed" Iranian units disembarking from helicopters and carrying what appear to be M16's. One close-up showed the telltale funky handguards of the ChiCom "CQ" rifle, which is a full-sized M16 knockoff. Now, I'm sure it's no great revelation that the Iranians have shit from China. However, I thought it was interesting to see a country you would expect to see armed with HK's or AK's armed with an AR clone.


Maybe they made some improvements.


Like a ChiCom gas piston conversion?



Seriously, I wonder what percent of the Iranian forces are armed with these?
Link Posted: 10/22/2007 11:54:21 AM EDT
This is not news. If you look in Janes Infantry Weapons under Iran, you will see an M16 clone. IIRC, it is made in Iran and not China, but it looks exactly like the M16 clone listed in the China section.
Link Posted: 10/22/2007 12:06:56 PM EDT
With those DCUs, mismatched web gear and M16s, they could create some confusion in a combat scenario.
Link Posted: 10/22/2007 12:11:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sic_ness:
Forget a ground war anyway, bomb them into submission, sweep through the cities razing everything, repeat as necessary. Does Iran have anything we want, anyway?


Go ahead... Take charge and do it...

When you are charged (very justifiably) with war crimes and crimes against humanity, I'll be one of the guys hoping you get the noose....

Fortunately, you will never have the authority to make such decisions...

And if/when we do go in, we will do it the RIGHT way (like Iraq)....
Link Posted: 10/22/2007 12:12:52 PM EDT
I've heard those CHICOM copies are horrible.
Link Posted: 10/22/2007 12:13:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Essayons:
This is not news. If you look in Janes Infantry Weapons under Iran, you will see an M16 clone. IIRC, it is made in Iran and not China, but it looks exactly like the M16 clone listed in the China section.


Iran's 'future rifle' is a bullpuped M16A1....

They currently use alot of reverse-engineered US tech, due to the pre-revolution relationship between the Shah and the USA....
Link Posted: 10/22/2007 12:14:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Essayons:
This is not news. If you look in Janes Infantry Weapons under Iran, you will see an M16 clone. IIRC, it is made in Iran and not China, but it looks exactly like the M16 clone listed in the China section.


Maybe they got all the tooling and stuff from China? Kinda like Taiwan did with the Type 57 (M14's made off of our machinery sold to them).
Link Posted: 10/22/2007 12:19:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ABNAK:

Originally Posted By Essayons:
This is not news. If you look in Janes Infantry Weapons under Iran, you will see an M16 clone. IIRC, it is made in Iran and not China, but it looks exactly like the M16 clone listed in the China section.


Maybe they got all the tooling and stuff from China? Kinda like Taiwan did with the Type 57 (M14's made off of our machinery sold to them).


The Shah bought everything Iran needed to build just about anything we sold him. What we didn't sell him, the Japanese and Taiwanese did. Iran had oil, Japan and Taiwan needed oil.
Link Posted: 10/22/2007 12:19:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By sic_ness:
Forget a ground war anyway, bomb them into submission, sweep through the cities razing everything, repeat as necessary. Does Iran have anything we want, anyway?


Go ahead... Take charge and do it...

When you are charged (very justifiably) with war crimes and crimes against humanity, I'll be one of the guys hoping you get the noose....

Fortunately, you will never have the authority to make such decisions...

And if/when we do go in, we will do it the RIGHT way (like Iraq)....


Please tell me you mean the initial takedown of Iraq and the "surge" for COIN, right? NOT the intervening 4 years of a virtual "holding pattern" where our guys rode around waiting to be blown up. Quick, violent takedown and a concerted, focused COIN strategy if an insurgency starts to develop. None of that in-between shit.
Link Posted: 10/22/2007 12:21:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sonrider657:
The Chinese COPYING other products?!

That's all Asian companies do - rip off the ideas of Americans and Europeans, make them dirt cheap with slave labor and steal profits away from the inventors. That is why I avoid Asian-made products whenever possible.



Didn't the Chinese invent gunpowder and build the first gun?
Link Posted: 10/22/2007 12:25:11 PM EDT
So, why can't I buy a semi-auto version of this AR at my local Dunhams for about $300?
Link Posted: 10/22/2007 12:33:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sonrider657:
The Chinese COPYING other products?!

That's all Asian companies do - rip off the ideas of Americans and Europeans, make them dirt cheap with slave labor and steal profits away from the inventors. That is why I avoid Asian-made products whenever possible.



Damn Chinese stole noodles from the Italians too, but that's not going to stop me from some good eatin.
Link Posted: 10/22/2007 12:40:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Derek45:
Norinco CQ

img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/derek45/cq311.jpg


img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/derek45/CQ556.jpg


Why does the hand guard look like a sex toy? An Anal sex toy.
Link Posted: 10/22/2007 12:40:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2007 12:42:24 PM EDT by streetfighter]
Link Posted: 10/22/2007 12:48:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Einstein:

Originally Posted By sonrider657:
The Chinese COPYING other products?!

That's all Asian companies do - rip off the ideas of Americans and Europeans, make them dirt cheap with slave labor and steal profits away from the inventors. That is why I avoid Asian-made products whenever possible.



Damn Chinese stole noodles from the Italians too, but that's not going to stop me from some good eatin.

China had noodles first!
http://www.worldhum.com/weblog/item/chinese_noodles_predate_marco_polo_20051013/
Link Posted: 10/22/2007 1:01:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2007 1:08:17 PM EDT by EternalVigilance]
I never meant to imply that I supported socialism in the united states by saying that I have a problem with the way china operates. I never said I supported unions or non-skilled labor making $25 an hour in the united states, or any form of socialism.

Fact is, the chineese are communist.

I am not advocating that china have a "minimum wage" or anything of that nature. I could give two shits about china and the only people in china I feel sorry for are the people who are actively resisting their commie ass government. China would be a lot better off if they actually embraced free-markets within their own borders.

If you don't think china steals our intellectual property on an ENORMOUS scale, then you are wrong.


eta: Oh, and my understanding is that China does have slave labor camps. Political prisoners and other "non-desirables" who work in prison labor camps. I doubt the products produced make up any mentionable percentage of their exports, but its the principle. I was not referring to "not having a minimum wage and standard of living comparable to ours" as slave labor. They have their communist leaders to thank for their shitty economy and shitty standard of living.

People can buy all the cheap commie crap they want as far as I am concerned. Hell I buy some of it I'm sure. But china = communist = teh suxs

that is all...
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