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6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 10/20/2001 8:20:47 PM EDT
This phrase of the Declaration of Independence is often misunderstood. Here is an excellent article on it: [url]http://www.mises.org/fullarticle.asp?control=804[/url] It is very long, so let me summarize: "Equality" is a very broad statement. First one must define equality of what. And therein lies the rub. Many have perverted the meaning of the original statement. We must find out what type of equality he meant. In determining what he meant requires one to go back to his source: John Locke What Locke defined equality to mean was equality of [b]authority[/b]: that no person is higher in authority than any other. This means that member of the gov't can not have any more power than any ordinary citizen. No only equality before authority(aka: Legislators, cops, judges), but equality [b]with[/b] authority. To quote Locke himself:
(T)he execution of the law of nature is in that state put into every man's hands, whereby every one has a right to punish the transgressors of that law to such a degree as may hinder its violation. . . . For in that state of perfect equality, where naturally there is no superiority or jurisdiction of one over another, what any may do in prosecution of that law, every one must needs have a right to do.
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This was, and still is, a radical concept. Read the link if you have time.
Link Posted: 10/20/2001 9:44:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/20/2001 9:51:26 PM EDT
"All men are created equal, but some are more equal than others."
Link Posted: 10/20/2001 10:22:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/20/2001 10:23:02 PM EDT
Both John Locke and Rene Descartes conceived the nature of things as made up of the material objects of science they termed " material substances",and of persons, whom they termed "mental substances".... (from The Meeting of East and West, by F.S.C Northrop) I believe John Locke primary was concered about the independent thought that exists in the subjects of his "mental substances" theory. He also thought that the State should not have ultimate authority over the individual. I also believe that independence from England, and the toleration of religion was an inherent part of an autonomous mental being in the eighteenth century as Lockes' philosophical teachings would indicate. The article that was linked had a lot to say about Libertarians, I think that equality to John Locke and Thomas Jefferson meant that individuals were equal in the eyes of the law and equal among each other; and were more worthy of rights as beings than any form of government could possibly be. The Constituion based on Locke has a lot to do with property rights which in a material sense is about individual or personal rights and the economic autonomy of the free person.
Link Posted: 10/20/2001 10:40:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/20/2001 11:23:42 PM EDT
Wow! This is a rather substancially intellectual debate for 3AM on AR15.com..... In any event, here's my input to this conversation. There's only 2 points I have to make. 1) The founding fathers (particularly Jefferson & Franklin) took their philosophy and ideology from many sourses, Locke, Montesquieu, Rousseau, Descartes, Voltaire, Calvinism, Socrates, and Plato. This little snippet directly relates strongest towards some of Locke's writings in the 2nd Treatice on Government. Locke meant that all men are equally entitled to find unclaimed property and claim it as their own in order to live. They have the right to defend that property, their liberty, and protect their lives. Both Locke and Jefferson believed that rights came from God rather than a monarch. 2) It has become incredibly clear to virtually every scholar who has examined the writings of the founding fathers, that if nothing else, these were direct, concise men. They meant what they wrote and they wrote what they meant. While the writings of Locke can be hard to grasp at times, all the writings of our parental patriots are remarkably understandable to the dimmest of people. The very notion that there is some mystical secret implied meaning behind the 2nd ammendment is laughable to the extreme, if anyone doubts me, please feel free to read any of Jefferson's, Paine's, Franklin's or Adams' views on firearms.
Link Posted: 10/20/2001 11:36:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/20/2001 11:50:32 PM EDT
I take it then, RAF, that you're more a supporter of Hobbes than Locke? I don't know if I can agree with that...
Link Posted: 10/20/2001 11:56:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2001 2:53:18 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/21/2001 6:18:05 AM EDT
not sure of the exact quote,"God created all men, Sam Colt made them equal"
Link Posted: 10/21/2001 6:21:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2001 6:39:41 AM EDT by shooter65]
well put raf. everyone starts off equal, but as life progresses so do certain individuals and others do not. people all travel different paths and have different thoughts. thats why we are all individuals. [beer]
Originally Posted By raf: All humans START equal and retain their inherent human rights. AFTER birth, they diverge and become distinct individuals. And they should be treated so, and so judged.
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Link Posted: 10/21/2001 6:40:38 AM EDT
[:x] I am avoiding this topic.
Link Posted: 10/21/2001 6:47:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By I_Luv_Carrots: [:x] I am avoiding this topic.
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Wise desicion......considering your a vegetable. Sgtar15
Link Posted: 10/21/2001 6:49:02 AM EDT
Equal means legal recognition that no person is better than another. Remember England had/has a class structure and other societies have a caste structure. It simply means we will never have lords or serfs. Any person can acusse any other person of a crime and has a right to be heard. Everyone is responsible for their actions and has Rights, regardless of their social status. They never said life was fair however. I think many people think that life must be fair.
Link Posted: 10/21/2001 6:50:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/21/2001 6:53:47 AM EDT
ha ha ha good one!! [beer]
Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Originally Posted By I_Luv_Carrots: [:x] I am avoiding this topic.
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Wise desicion......considering your a vegetable. Sgtar15
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Link Posted: 10/21/2001 6:55:56 AM EDT
Raf, The tree of liberty... -CK
Link Posted: 10/21/2001 7:00:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: ] Wise desicion......considering your a vegetable. Sgtar15
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Shall I remind you? : < (|)
Link Posted: 10/21/2001 7:02:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/21/2001 7:11:11 AM EDT
The thought that all men are either physically or mentaly equal is assinign. All men are only created equal in the eyes of the government. This is what I believe our FF meant when this was written.
Link Posted: 10/21/2001 7:17:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/21/2001 4:09:55 PM EDT
raf, others- I don't know if you were directing those comments(all men are not equal in most respects) at me or just speaking(typing?) out loud, but that is exactly why I posted this article- to help people understand that is not what Jefferson meant when he wrote that. Yeah, the FF's were human, and they were not perfect, but they are far superior that to what we have now. Either way, raf, you are pretty much right on. garheadjr, you also hit the nail on the head. But I think you guys are also missing a crucial point: that men are not only equal in the eyes of the gov't, they are equal [b]WITH[/b] the gov't. Do you see the difference? Basically, while everybody has the same rights and immunities from gov't, the gov't also can't do anything that any citizen can't do. For example: the gov't is allowed free possession and use of full auto. We the citizens are not. That is contrary to the 'created equal' phrase. I think that is quite radical, and I like it [:D]
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