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Posted: 10/15/2001 10:19:08 AM EDT
[url]http://www.mycfnow.com/orlpn/news/stories/news-101582720011015-091013.html[/url]
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 10:22:19 AM EDT
that is just wrong...let him have his flag (and the pole) medcop
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 10:23:33 AM EDT
What an absolute crock. Screw these damn homeowner associations. I can see having rules to keep homes from becoming an eyesore, but this goes beyond logical thinking, almost to treasonous, telling someone they how to fly the U.S. flag at their own home.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 10:35:16 AM EDT
What do I need to do to get myself to the point where the only thing in my life to worry about is my neighbor having a flag pole in their yard? If someone knocked on my door and told me I had to remove my flag because they were offended by it, they would be sh#ting out their teeth for a month.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 10:54:44 AM EDT
well, i see we made the news again here in Jupiter (as in what planet are these people from), FloriDUH. this is a national disgrace and begs for the intervention of both Congress, the President, Florida representatives, the Governor and all Americans. the homeowners were not content with the removal of the flag, but also wanted to send a message to any future potential 'association law-breakers' by having the kangaroo court cite the acused criminal for each individual infraction. This man served his country and fought for this flag. This is just another example of the short stick that vetrans get in this country, and of a petty condo-commando association run amuck. It is no wonder that there is such disdain for the legal system. I am ashamed for Florida.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 10:59:54 AM EDT
I find it highly ironic that the predominately ederly Jewish Condo Associations here in Fl, who suffered directly at the hands of the Nazis, would themselves become such perfect little Hitlers. When is this going to become unacceptable?
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 11:03:58 AM EDT
I say the next time Marines are needed we should send some of these wacho judges and let them earn the freedom to be the idoits they are. Hell I knew a guy that sued the homeowners assc. and won, the assc. went bankrupt and he also sued some of the officers. Don't know what happened with that one yet.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 11:11:07 AM EDT
Palm Beach County...again...the ridiculous news seems to never stop there...geeze...
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 11:34:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2001 11:40:58 AM EDT by zazou]
Ok, it sucks, but here is the fact. Do not call me un-patriotic because that is not the point, nor are the motives behind the HOA people. If he signed onto a contract with the HOA when he moved in he needs follow it or pay the penalties. Yeah, I may sound like a bastard, but the issue is that cut and dry. If he didn't like it then he should not have signed into the HOA. Period. A contract is binding, regardless of your emotions or patriotism. I think the HOA is pathetic for doing this, especially now, but the fact is the contract remains. Zaz
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 11:38:33 AM EDT
He should have to take the flag down, IF the other homeowners agree to have their houses burned to the ground (while they are in them). -SS
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 11:45:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By zazou: Ok, it sucks, but here is the fact. Do no call me un-patriotic because that is not the point, nor are the motives behind the HOA people. If he signed onto a contract with the HOA when he moved in he needs follow it or pay the penalties. Yeah, I may sound like a bastard, but the issue is that cut and dry. If he didn't like it then he should not have signed into the HOA. Period. A contract is binding, regardless of your emotions or patriotism. I think the HOA is pathetic for doing this, especially now, but the fact is the contract remains. Zaz
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AGREED !!! I feel sorry for him, but when you join a commune you do what the collective wants or pay the penalty. I will never pay top dollar for a cheap stucco/chicken wire house in a commune where you have to sign a contract which tells you what you can and cannot do with, or to YOUR OWN DAMN PROPERTY !!! [pissed] [-!-]
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 1:07:20 PM EDT
Sounds like we need an executive order barring restrictions on flying the US flag. HOA's hate DSS dishes, but the FCC says they have to allow them. A HOA here in Houston foreclosed on an elderly woman who was behind on her dues after she paid them. They just decided not to cash her check and proceed with foreclosure proceedings. They never even notified her until it was already underway. So, for failing to pay $500, the elderly woman was forced out of her home. Many people in the state have called for restricting the power available to HOA's because of it. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 1:28:49 PM EDT
You people are worse than the Gun Grabbers and Media Slime when it comes to selectively obeying and enforcing laws. This marine is so honorable that he chose to willfully disregard the agreement he entered into when he moved into that neighborhood. If he had decided to do the same thing when he was in the Marine Corps and go home, you would have called him a coward. But just because this incident involves a US flag, you idiots dogpile onto this issue like it was a religious crusade!! He broke his word, he thumbed his nose at the other law-abiding residents that honor their agreements, and now he has to pay. This guy is nothing but a self centered, self righteous moron who needs to learn the hard way that when you give your word you keep it. Are all marines this stupid? The ones I've met sure are. Maybe if he had joined the Navy he would've developed some smarts and not tried to pull this little stunt.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 1:45:36 PM EDT
Steel_Rat" TROLL ALERT!!!
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 1:54:54 PM EDT
Neighborhood codes can suck my a**. There was nothing, NOTHING in any of the scads of paperwork when I bought my home mentioning codes. But I guess they're there, because sometimes the neighborhood will get notices from them reminding us not to park OUR cars on OUR lawns, no businesses from the home, etc. As far as I'm concerned, they can puff on BoBo. I'll admit I may not want to live next to the ninny with a pink/black checkerboard house, but ya know what? It's HIS HOUSE, and God bless America, he can do whatever he wants, DAMMIT!!! As for this Marine, bless him too. These jerk-offs who are doing this to him, and the courts that support it should have a pox upon their houses and may all their cars fail to start. What a pathetic waste of time. On a proud American. SHAME ON THEM!!![pissed][pissed]
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 1:59:47 PM EDT
South Florida (Broward, Parts of Miami-Dade, and South Palm Beach) is a Liberal Cesspool. I moved to get away from this crap and I am damn glad I did. I remember the Newspapers (Sun-Sentinel, Miami Herald, Palm Beach Post) down there being so biased it sickened me. I would see some half-wit write in quoting HCI propaganda. Then I wrote a reply debunking it. The Sun-Sentinel never even thought about publishing my reply. Shows you how worthless they are. But back to the subject. Every few days in South Florida you hear about HOAs running roughshod over people. One even took a woman's home for 37 cents which they didn't tell her about until they had filed a lein. She tried to pay, but they demanded attorneys fees which shot the fee into the thousands and she couldn't afford it. These [s]people[/s] garbage (HOAs) are nothing more than the lowest form of life known to man.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 2:00:21 PM EDT
HOA's are a pain in the a$$, but you agree to abide by them when you buy into these places that have them. It matters not how trivial the infraction, sooner or later one of the HOA Nazi's will come down on you and you will be screwed because the no life, numbnut nazis will have the law on their side. You read, it you signed you, live by it.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 7:42:37 PM EDT
So you guys all agree that a flagpole flying Old Glory is offensive and destined to lower property values? And you assume that HOA's operate inside the law, which they sometimes do not. My HOA has told me repeatedly to take down my satellite dish, until I inform them that the FCC says I can have it. Then they back down, only to bring it back up again. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 8:53:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2001 8:49:16 PM EDT by Nathaniel_Hawkins]
They can take my home away from me. [-!-] Over my dead body. [50] [pistol] [shotgun] [sniper] [USA]
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 9:08:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GodBlessTexas: So you guys all agree that a flagpole flying Old Glory is offensive and destined to lower property values?
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Why do some of you insist on perverting posts so obvious? Troll!
And you assume that HOA's operate inside the law, which they sometimes do not. My HOA has told me repeatedly to take down my satellite dish, until I inform them that the FCC says I can have it. Then they back down, only to bring it back up again. God Bless Texas
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That still does not make the contract with them you signed less valid. Do you understand what it means when you sign a contract? If you sign it you should stick to it. There is a word called [b]honor[/b] I might refer you to in the dictionary. Furthermore, as a Marine, the guy should understand that better than most.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 9:55:34 PM EDT
This is rediculous. HOAs are evil. He was cleared of fraud at least at this point. If it was me, I would fight this thing to the dirt!!! I would make the HOA regret the day they screwed with me. I would push the limits so hard. Walk the fine line and see who gets the shaft. "It is only just to challenge unjust laws." What are the checks and balances of HOAs? Look it up. Do some reading on the subject. I am all for this guy.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 10:18:57 PM EDT
You can not sign away Constitutional rights. For example if you signed an agreement with you HOA that says you can be fined for speaking out against a Democrat, could it really be enforced. Legally, nobody can enforce such a contract. You have a first amendment right to Free Speech and Redress of Greivences, you cannot sign this away. Questions arise only with the so-called limited amendments (2nd, 4th, etc.) You could theoretically sign a lease saying you can't own a gun. I know because I signed one when I got my first apartment. I didn't bother reading the lease except for the most important parts (Payment Methods, etc.) I found out from a friend that the lease contained a ban on Firearms. So I read it then went out and bought a gun anyways. As I saw it and still see it, that clause is invalid since it violates my constitutional RKBA. Fortunately being an Apartment the worst they could have done is kick me out and keep my deposit. Had they even tried that I would have fought tooth and nail. Not for the money but the principle of it. Sorry, but you cannot sign away your constitutional rights. The house does not belong to the HOA. The marine holds the mortgage on it and therefore it is his. It is my deepest belief that an HOA is nothing more than an illegal Legislative Body with Judicial powers. They operate entirely outside the constitution and within unconstitutional laws. They must be challanged all the way to SCOTUS if necessary. The power to make laws belongs to Congress, State Legislatures, and vaguely to Municipal Governments. Nowhere does the constitution state that a corporation may create laws and enforce them with judicial powers. A corporation is not the Municipal Government and therfore cannot levy fines and/or taxes against residents. This right is reserved to the Municipal government no to any private corporation who thinks its above the law.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 10:28:16 PM EDT
I would like to add that if it was determined that HOAs had Legislative & Judicial Powers over residents then the entire constitution would be in trouble. Democrats could buy up large amounts of land and housing and declare them "Gun-Free Zones". They could even prosecute in violation of the 2nd Amendment. The Government could buy any new land and any HOA run housing and then pass any law it damned well pleased. If this was upheld we could eventually see a world where the only way to own a gun would be on privately owned land. Even then the Feds could declare emminent domain over most of America and then resell the land acting as an HOA it could pass any law it wanted w/o regard to the constitution. The HOA could ban Christianity, Guns, and even Free Speech. This is the greatest threat to America.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 10:42:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Defcon: This is rediculous. HOAs are evil. He was cleared of fraud at least at this point. If it was me, I would fight this thing to the dirt!!! I would make the HOA regret the day they screwed with me. I would push the limits so hard. Walk the fine line and see who gets the shaft. "It is only just to challenge unjust laws." What are the checks and balances of HOAs? Look it up. Do some reading on the subject. I am all for this guy.
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I guess some people aren't clear on the whole concept of a homeowners association. Many people chose, of their own free will, to buy homes that are subject to a homeowners association. When you buy such a home, the title company doesn't complete escrow until you sign that you have read and agree to the charter and bylaws of the association. The idea being that you trade something of value i.e. your ability to do what ever you want with your property, for something else of value. Usually this something else is a visually attractive neighborhood. Some people might just sign the agreement without actually reading it or understanding it. These people are called "Stupid". No question, life is hard if you are stupid. These people I kind of feel sorry for, but the way you get smarter is by learning from your stupid mistakes. Other people read and understand the agreement, but disregard it when they find that it chafes their freedom of expression. These people are called "A**holes". I consider rather gratifying when an a**hole gets what is comming to him. It sounds like the guy in Florida agreed to not have a flag pole, and then had one anyway. While is sounds pretty harsh to lose your house over a flag pole, it was his bet and he lost it. He could have chose to comply with the agreement he made and then he wouldn't be in this mess. Don't blame the HOA, they are fulfilling their obligation to all the other members that mean to abide by their agreement.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 10:54:41 PM EDT
OK, let put it in a scenario. Now, in the year 2008 Hillary Clinton is elected President. Now once everybody stops hurling at the thought. Clinton then creates with the Office of HUD a board with legislative powers over government housing. Oh wait that board already exists. She then composed the board of herslef as head and Diane Feinstein, Barbara Boxer, Sarah Brady, et al. as members. This board could then take judicial action against anybody who violates its rules. Immediately the board passes an outright ban on Firearms. This unelected board now moves to have random weapon sweeps of all HUD housing. Oh wait this has already happened under the watch of Andrew Cuomo. No, here's where it gets good. Hillary uses her office to buy up all non-privately owned land effectively banning new land purchases. The price of Pre-Ban Land is then driven up further out of the range of the poor and middle-class. Realizing there is still land available and builders are rushing to build on it, Hillary moves to buy up all remaining land w/o structures on it. Those who refuse to sell are eminent domained. This further drives up the value of existing homes. Now only the rich can afford their own homes. But, still unsatisfied Hillary moves to emminent domain any homes within x miles of any government land, building, or installation. This further drives the csot out of the range of anybody except the super rich. Unsatisfied, Hillary then moves to expand government land and elimates private land altogether. Eventually, the Federal Government owns all land in America. Now, the board at HUD under the control of the likes of Clinton, Brady, and Schumer ban all firearms, deadly weapons, many forms of free speech, and anything Christian. Basically, Clinton would have done an end run around the Constitution.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 10:58:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Weiseguy:
Originally Posted By Defcon: This is rediculous. HOAs are evil. He was cleared of fraud at least at this point. If it was me, I would fight this thing to the dirt!!! I would make the HOA regret the day they screwed with me. I would push the limits so hard. Walk the fine line and see who gets the shaft. "It is only just to challenge unjust laws." What are the checks and balances of HOAs? Look it up. Do some reading on the subject. I am all for this guy.
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I guess some people aren't clear on the whole concept of a homeowners association. Many people chose, of their own free will, to buy homes that are subject to a homeowners association. When you buy such a home, the title company doesn't complete escrow until you sign that you have read and agree to the charter and bylaws of the association. The idea being that you trade something of value i.e. your ability to do what ever you want with your property, for something else of value. Usually this something else is a visually attractive neighborhood. Some people might just sign the agreement without actually reading it or understanding it. These people are called "Stupid". No question, life is hard if you are stupid. These people I kind of feel sorry for, but the way you get smarter is by learning from your stupid mistakes. Other people read and understand the agreement, but disregard it when they find that it chafes their freedom of expression. These people are called "A**holes". I consider rather gratifying when an a**hole gets what is comming to him. It sounds like the guy in Florida agreed to not have a flag pole, and then had one anyway. While is sounds pretty harsh to lose your house over a flag pole, it was his bet and he lost it. He could have chose to comply with the agreement he made and then he wouldn't be in this mess. Don't blame the HOA, they are fulfilling their obligation to all the other members that mean to abide by their agreement.
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You sir underscore the reasons California is going to hell in a handbasket. Regardless of what California thinks you cannot sign away your constitutional rights.
Link Posted: 10/15/2001 11:04:19 PM EDT
BTW, its not always of our own free will. For example much of the land in certain areas is controlled by HOAs. It is impossible to find a decently priced place in South Palm Beach if it isn't run by an HOA. Worse are College areas where everything within miles of campus is owned by a few corps. or the College itself. Most likely in the future every apartment, condo, and new property will be run by an HOA. It is already happening. Next time you drive by new construction. You will soon realize virtually all new construction is by HOAs. Soon, only the rich will be able to own their own homes. HOAs will run roughshod over the rights of the rest of us.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 6:08:40 AM EDT
You cannot sign away Constitutional rights. Ok. Not that simple but, Ill give you another tenet. The states may not interfere with civil contracts. Ok. This is why we have courts. There has been some US Supreme Court rulings regarding political speech similar to this issue. In my quick search none apply to HOA but to municipalities seeking to limit campaign signs. They cant. Doesnt mean HOA's can't. Most HOA's allow any single member to enforce any complaint. Or more correctly, allow any single member to compel the association to enforce infractions. You should read these covenants before you agree to them. Some covenants are nullified due to Congressional action (Those based on race etc.) But most others will stand. Barring an act of Congress, he may be sunk. Personally, the guy ought to fight if he has the resources. Think the neighbors are big time pricks. String it out in the courts. He should track down every member who has a basketball hoop, flower pot, third or fourth car in the driveway, RV parked, boat - check the regs and beat them down. More than one way to skin a cat. Keep in mind; The Constitution limits the powers of the government, not the people. BTW these HOA's are put in place not because developers love to regulate the homeowners (the HOA is constructed by the developer). Its because theres very little clean land. All the "common area" is most likely unbuildable and needs a mechanism to ensure its maintained. The after effects are unintended consequences. Luck Alac
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 6:18:54 AM EDT
(A little bit of sarcasm) We need to bring back the McCarthy hearings to check the loyality of all people within the United States. Anyone that is part of any organization that defames or is against the United States will be punished severely. (Yes I am aware that the previous owner or the property has deeded away part of the homeowners rights to the HOA, but this is insane to foreclose someone over flying the US flag.)
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 7:15:16 AM EDT
Sounds like we should drop a few extra bombs here in this country.. Ropes
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 8:19:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Alacrity: You cannot sign away Constitutional rights.
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The hell you can't. Every NCO, CO and WO or anyone anywhere who joins the US military signs them away and subjugates themselves tohe MCJ (Military Code of Justice). And there you have it.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 8:33:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cc48510: BTW, its not always of our own free will. For example much of the land in certain areas is controlled by HOAs. It is impossible to find a decently priced place in South Palm Beach if it isn't run by an HOA. Worse are College areas where everything within miles of campus is owned by a few corps. or the College itself. Most likely in the future every apartment, condo, and new property will be run by an HOA. It is already happening. Next time you drive by new construction. You will soon realize virtually all new construction is by HOAs. Soon, only the rich will be able to own their own homes. HOAs will run roughshod over the rights of the rest of us.
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Sorry dude, it is still your choice. If you elect to lower your cost of housing by moving to a place that is subject to a HOA, that is a choice that you make. If you later regret that choice, don't blame me, the goverment, the HOA, or Billary Klinton. When the goverment passes a law that requires that all property owners become members of a homeowners association, that would be unconstitutional. However, as long as you continue to confuse individuals freely entering into contracts with one another, for their mutual benefit, with goverment infringing on their rights, you will continue to sound like an ultra liberal. As far as HOA's banning firearms, I've never heard of it. In fact HOA's typically don't involve themselves in any aspect of the members property that isn't discernable from the common areas. If Billary wants to buy a huge tract of land and develop a community where firearms are prohibited by mutual consent, that is her right. I don't know where she would find customers stupid enough to buy into such a place, maybe that guy in Florida. BTW, your example is a good one of how market forces allocate resources. You claim that all the inexpensive housing is in HOA's. That suggests that future developments would be less likely to include a HOA since your local market seems to place a premium on less encumbered property. If the disparity continues, existing HOA's might elect to disolve themselves so that their individual members may enjoy increased property value. The bottom line is if you think HOAs suck, then don't join one. This guy in Florida did join one. There has been no suggestion that he did not do so freely. He subsequently violated the terms of the contract. He apparently stubbornly, and stupidly, continued to resist abiding by the contract until he now stands to lose his home. He made bad choices. Neither myself, the goverment, nor Billary Klinton made them for him. When you make bad choices, you suffer unpleasant consequences. In fact, the unpleasant consequences are how bad choices are distinguished from good choices. FYI, the reason my state is such a mess is because it is chock full of people who, like yourself, seem to think that government is somehow responsible for the poor choices made by individuals.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 9:41:29 AM EDT
weiseguy, you still don't get it. I'm not saying the government needs to make more laws. I'm saying that HOAs shouldn't be able to make laws. These are not elected officials. They cannot make laws. The constitution vested legislative powers in the congress and the respective state legislatures. Nobody vested legislative powers in the individual. For example, following your logic a neighborhood could sign into an HOA with a rule that any Christian will be burned alive in their home.... Do you get my point.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 9:55:43 AM EDT
Let me explain it this way: 1) The Constitution vests Legislative Powers in the Congress and Respective State Legislatures. 2) The Constitution Contains a Bill Of Rights which no Legislative body may violate. 3) The Constitution states all rights not reserved to the Federal Government by the Constitution are given to the states. 4) Free Speech is reserved by the Constitution to the Federal Government. 5) Even if the Federal Government could pass laws regarding Speech, no state government could. 6) If the state government can't create a law, then it can't give that ability to a lower body such as a Municipal Government. 7) If the Municipal and State Government cannot pass such a law they cannot give that ability to a group of individuals.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 10:55:44 AM EDT
It's not a law, it is a contract. The remedies that the HOA has for violations are spelled out in the contract. The HOA association which represents the other individual signers of the contract is expected to employ the specified remedies if some one violates the terms of the agreement, it is what gives the agreement force. State legislatures do have the power to pass laws to regulate and enforce contracts. It is entirely constitutional. The well developed body of contract law in the US is one of the reasons that we enjoy a significantly higher standard of living here than in say Afganistan or Russia. Most business ventures, including housing developments, involve agreements between individuals for mutual benefit. Whenever there are agreements, there will be dishonorable people that will break them. There will always be a mechanism for resolving these disputes. In US we take the dispute to court where the law compels us to abide by the results. In Russia, the dispute would likely be resolved by violence. In Italy (at least in years past) it would be resolved by the local Don. So far there is no indication that any laws were violated. He has merely managed to accumulate a massive debt to the HOA as a result of his unwillingness to keep his word. It is no different from what would happen to you if you violate your agreement to pay your mortgage in timely manner. Of course, if this guy doesn't vacate the premises after he loses ownership, then he will be in violation of the law and he will be subject to prosecution as a criminal. Don't forget that the constitution also guarantees the right to free association. This "gentleman" is clearly violating the rights of his neighbors to associate with people that don't have flagpoles in their yards.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 12:45:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2001 12:39:32 PM EDT by SouthernShark]
Originally Posted By Weiseguy: It's not a law, it is a contract. The remedies that the HOA has for violations are spelled out in the contract. The HOA association which represents the other individual signers of the contract is expected to employ the specified remedies if some one violates the terms of the agreement, it is what gives the agreement force. State legislatures do have the power to pass laws to regulate and enforce contracts. It is entirely constitutional..
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The problem with your argument is very simple. Housing Associations do not enforce contracts. Contracts are enforced by the government. Ask yourself, could you put anything you want into a contract and have a court enforce it? Could I, for instance, write a housing contract, and place a covenant in the contract which restricts the house to "whites only" and then ask a court to enforce it? Of course not. Similarly, the courts in this case are being asked to limit a man's freedom of speech. I do not think that a court has such power, especially not in this case. The speech which he wants to endorse is political in nature. Furthermore, the disruption which he is causing to the neighborhood is very minor in nature. Hence when you balance the importance of free speech, versus the harm of putting a pole in a man's yard, free speech wins out every time. -SS
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 12:57:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Weiseguy: It's not a law, it is a contract. The remedies that the HOA has for violations are spelled out in the contract. The HOA association which represents the other individual signers of the contract is expected to employ the specified remedies if some one violates the terms of the agreement, it is what gives the agreement force. State legislatures do have the power to pass laws to regulate and enforce contracts. It is entirely constitutional. The well developed body of contract law in the US is one of the reasons that we enjoy a significantly higher standard of living here than in say Afganistan or Russia. Most business ventures, including housing developments, involve agreements between individuals for mutual benefit. Whenever there are agreements, there will be dishonorable people that will break them. There will always be a mechanism for resolving these disputes. In US we take the dispute to court where the law compels us to abide by the results. In Russia, the dispute would likely be resolved by violence. In Italy (at least in years past) it would be resolved by the local Don. So far there is no indication that any laws were violated. He has merely managed to accumulate a massive debt to the HOA as a result of his unwillingness to keep his word. It is no different from what would happen to you if you violate your agreement to pay your mortgage in timely manner. Of course, if this guy doesn't vacate the premises after he loses ownership, then he will be in violation of the law and he will be subject to prosecution as a criminal. Don't forget that the constitution also guarantees the right to free association. This "gentleman" is clearly violating the rights of his neighbors to associate with people that don't have flagpoles in their yards.
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Let me simplify this: This is the order of power of law: 1) God's Law 2) The U.S. Constitution 3) Federal Law 4) State Law 5) County Ordnances 6) Municipal Ordnances 7) Contractual Agreements Contracts have to be done in accordance with Local, State, and Federal Law. Similarly a contract in California saying every person in your community must own an AR-15 would be illegal because it violates the Roberti-Roos law (4th Highest Law.) In the same sense saying you cannot freely express yourself violates the Constituion (2nd Highest Law.) In our world only #2-#7 count in a court of law. So, the constitution is the highest law of the land and no contract can change that.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 1:09:16 PM EDT
I agree that he signed the HOA contract.. But always gotta be a but ;o} This is the USA what the hell is wrong with a FLAG - especialy in our current times. It isnt like he moved his 12*40 home on wheels into the neighborhood.. Ropes
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 2:53:47 PM EDT
Hypothetical examples of HOA rules that require the members to engage in a behavior that is clearly prohibited by law do not bear on this case. The comparison breaks down when we observe that it is not illegal to not have a flag pole on your property. He was bound by an agreement to not have a particular type of structure on his property. Specifically he was forbiden from having a flag pole, and I think we can deduce from context that he was even more specifically prohibited from having a free standing flag pole. There is no indication that he was forbiden from displaying a flag at all. The article clearly states that he could have displayed his flag on a bracket mounted pole on the side of his house. Presumably he could have also hung it from his eaves, or a tree or whatever. He did not agree to not have a flag. He agreed not to have a flag pole. A flag may, or may not, be speach. A flag pole is certainly not speach. A flag is a symbol of something. A flag pole is a type of structure that is designed for the display of flags. Have you ever heard anyone pledge alegiance to the flag pole? Why does his HOA have a rule against flag poles? Beats the heck out of me. I think they are kind of cool myself. Several people in my neighborhood have them and I've toyed with the idea of putting one in my own yard. My community considers flag poles acceptable, his doesn't. I'm not subject to a homeowners association, he is. If having a flag pole was so damn important, he was free to sell his house take the proceeds and move somewhere where flag poles are acceptable. Now he is going to have to sell his house, give most, if not all, the proceeds to lawyers and the HOA, and maybe not be able to afford another house at all let alone one that enables him to have a flag pole. It's sad, but it sounds like this guy is his own worst enemy.
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 3:01:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 7:14:22 PM EDT
There is something seriously wrong in this world: O.J. Simpson was found liable for the wrongful death of 2 persons. His pension and primaryy residence were protected by law, so the families got almost nothing. A Marine who gave of himself to defend America decides to place a flag on his property which he owns and now his pension and home can be taken because somebody was offended by the flagpole. Am I the only one who see a problem here ?
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 8:38:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cc48510: You can not sign away Constitutional rights. For example if you signed an agreement with you HOA that says you can be fined for speaking out against a Democrat, could it really be enforced. Legally, nobody can enforce such a contract. You have a first amendment right to Free Speech and Redress of Greivences, you cannot sign this away.
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You keep bleating this same mantra over and over, and every time you do it your total cluelessness is made painfully apparent to the rest of us. Unfortunately you're too stupid to realize that not only can you sign away your Constitutional Rights, you do it every day!! I know you're not too smart so I'll type this slowly.... Your "Constitutional Rights" are a limit placed on [b]The Government[/b] and have absolutely no bearing on private citizens. For instance, The Government may not tell you what you can or can't talk about - Freedom of Speech. But, if you're on my private property, you don't have Freedom of Speech and I am in control of what you may talk about. If I don't like what you're saying, I can kick your ass off my property (the limit of my jurisdiction). Ok, are you getting this yet? Do you understand the difference between government and private citizens? Another for instance - your employer can place all sorts of "Unconstitutional" limits on your behavior. They can prohibit you from preaching your religion to your coworkers. Is this a violation of your First Amendment rights? No, because your employer is a private company and not the government. When you took the job you agreed to abide by their rules - you "sign(ed) away (your) Constitutional rights." If you break their rules, they will kick your ass out of their company. Home Owner's Associations are not The Government - they are a group of private citizens that you voluntarily entered into an agreement with. And it doesn't matter how silly it is - if you signed a contract that says you'll always wear orange shoes, they have every right to penalize you if they catch you wearing green ones. I sure hope you understand this and am not nearly as stupid as you seem to be here, but only time, and your replies, will tell. So, if you don't like the rules of a particular HOA then don't move into their area. And if you do, then either abide by the contract you signed or suffer the consequences. But, please, whatever you do - quit whining about this!!
Link Posted: 10/16/2001 8:46:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2001 8:50:12 PM EDT by cc48510]
You are wrong. For example if I'm on your property I can say whatever I damned well please. But since it is your property you can kick me off. The property this Marine is on is his own property not that of the HOA. If the land was owned by an HOA and leased that would be another matter since he'd be making alterations to property he doesn't own. But since he owns the house it is his to do with as he pleases. No contract can violate the law. As your example about your property you cannot take action because I'm speaking freely. But you can take action because I am on your property. That would be tresspassing. Also as for how you say the constitution only applies to the government I will give this example. In your world, your neighbors could violate your rights. How about this, you live in a liberal area and your neighbors don't like guns so they band together and create a no gun rule. In your mind this would be legal since they are not the government. But you are wrong since your property doesn't belong to them. I need to point out that any example you can give will involve a person on anothers property. For example a school can say you cannot wear certain shirts because you are at school. You can say I cannot disagree with you if I'm in your home. A landlord can say no flagpoles because he owns the property. If the HOA subsidizes the purchase then they can limit the lands use.
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