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Posted: 10/14/2001 6:54:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2001 12:48:49 PM EDT by goneshootin]
Fox news quoting the London Times Says that the anthrax being used in the US links directly back to Saddam.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 7:00:27 AM EDT
And we know HE has a track record for using stuff! Eric The(Saddam'sNext)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 7:26:55 AM EDT
Just one more reason we should have gone in there last time in Iraq, and got the job done properly. It would have been bad, but nowhere near as bad as this one is going to be. But of course, we were worried about the opinions of the "Middle East allies" and of the consquences of using too much force and in going too far. Now, we have to use Bill Clinton's military to do an even bigger job. I really don't think sending in a few special forces troops is going to win this war- it is going to have to be an all-out committment of men, materiel, our citizenry, our entire fortunes as a nation are going to have to be applied on this one. If anybody thinks the projected death of Osama Bin-Laden is going to stop this war against us, good luck- this is just the beginning. We must drop our old thinking and limitations on what has to be done to our enemies in order to win this war. This is not your grandpa's war- this is worse. In this war already, since the 1970s we have lost many thousands of casualties, military and civilian, and it shows no sign yet of being definitively decided in our favor. We really are, compared with just about every single powerful nation I can think of in history, stupid. We worry too much about what the rest of the world thinks of us, and possess the biggest, most powerful military and weapons systems the world has ever seen, yet we are too timid to use it. Well, in time, if not already, our opponents will show no compunction about using their weapons against us- Still, the main answer seems to be: "Get back to your normal lives." "Normalcy." Hell- like I want to live in a world where the language that defines it was framed by leaders who think like Warren G. Harding?? There is no more "normalcy", if there ever was. We have been deluding ourselves. And still we let a bunch of terrorists, tinpot dictators and the opinions of others determine how we live. Soon it may come to not just how we live, but whether we exist at all. It's ludicrous.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 7:33:43 AM EDT
As I understand it, WE gave it(Anthrax) to him.(Saddam)
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 7:36:36 AM EDT
I firmly agree that the condition of our military from one William Jefferson Clinton Will not win this war. It'll be an act of congress to bolster our troops.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 7:37:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 7:42:39 AM EDT
Ya no shit since when have we given Bio or chems to third world countries?
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 7:59:34 AM EDT
If Iraq is the source of the anthrax outbreaks in this country we should NUKE the fuckers until there isnt one Iraqi (sp) left to pray to allah.. Blue Skies, Ropes [kill]
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 8:13:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: Delmarksman, can you cite a credible reference for your allegation?
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It was a Topic of discussion on Fox the other night. Apparently we gave them the Spores back in the 80's.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 8:20:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2001 12:35:35 PM EDT by DaMan]
I have not heard anything about investigators being able to trace the anthrax spores back to Iraq. I had heard that the strain involved in the first fatal FL case could be traced back to a lab strain in Iowa (non-weapons grade). But even if Iraq had nothing to do with it, they continue to work on their chemical and biological warfare capabilities. They have already developed a jet drone (L29) that is fitted with two anthrax dispensors. This must mean that they have had weapons grade anthrax for some time now. They have 8 military factories involved in the manufacture of chemical weapons. They continue chemical training of their military forces. In fact, about three months ago they had a training accident that killed about 20 soldiers and hospitalized many more. Iraq needs to be spanked severely! But first things first! Oh, and BTW! If they trace this back to Iraq, they aren't going to announce this publicly until AFTER the US takes appropriate action. No need to telegraph our intentions! That's my take on it. DaMan
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 8:31:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 8:36:33 AM EDT
None taken FWIW It matters very little where they got it from. They have it as well as many other nasty things that make Anthrax pale by comparison. They also have shown a willingness to use whatever is on hand against anyone they wish. Including their own people.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 8:37:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 9:35:33 AM EDT
Strain came from the lab in Iowa. Apparently they did give some of this strain to Iraq-per CNN.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 11:16:42 AM EDT
When Hussein was supplied with the biologicals during the Iran/Iraq war, Iraq was our "friend", just like the Northern Alliance is right now...
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 11:39:10 AM EDT
Heres your Link RAF [url]www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/10/14/131100.shtml[/url] Report: Iraq Behind Anthrax Attacks NewsMax.com Wires Monday, Oct. 15, 2001 Britain's Guardian newspaper reported Sunday that American investigators probing anthrax outbreaks in Florida and New York believe they have all the hallmarks of a terrorist attack -- and have named Iraq as the prime suspect as the source of the deadly spores. The Guardian notes that in liquid form, anthrax is useless - droplets would fall to the ground, rather than staying suspended in the air to be breathed by victims. "Making powder needs repeated washings in huge centrifuges, followed by intensive drying, which requires sealed environments. The technology would cost millions." The London paper quoting CIA sources as saying that "Iraq has the technology and supplies of anthrax suitable for terrorist use." One CIA source told the paper: "They aren't making this stuff in caves in Afghanistan. This is prima facie evidence of the involvement of a state intelligence agency. Maybe Iran has the capability. But it doesn't look likely politically. That leaves Iraq." [b]American officials have already revealed that anthrax bacteria used in the recent attacks is the "Ames strain" of anthrax originally cultivated at Iowa State University in the 1950s. Iraq is believed to have that strain.[/b] Other sources indicate that al Qaeda members picked up vials of anthrax powder in the Czech Republic. CIA sources believe that terrorist ring leader Mohamed Atta met with Iraqi intelligence officials twice in Prague, with the last meeting this past spring. Already there are indications that Iraq may be part of the new war's "second phase." The first phase is under way: Closing down Taliban and al Qaeda operations in Afghanistan. The Guardian reports that former CIA Director Jim Woolsey has recently visited London on behalf of the U.S. Defense Department to "firm up" other evidence of Iraqi involvement in the Sept. 11 attacks.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 11:45:35 AM EDT
If all of this is true, then there are two things I wonder: (1) Why is the original strain being used, rather than one which has been made antibiotic-resistant? Iraq certainly has that much biowarfare capability. Hell, even *I* have that much bio-engineering ability. It wouldn't even take three months. (2) When are we going to start bombing Washington, D.C. for supplying terrorists with biological weapons?
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 11:47:04 AM EDT
Anthrax is also the subject of agricultural research (hence the Ames connection.) To be used in areosol form the spores would have to be weaponized in a fairly tricky process to get the spores just the right size. As a technique for killing people anthrax has so far been a bust. They've gotten one kill and a few exposures. They'd have been better off with a drive-by. Of course the press is playing this up (in part because they're a target.) Osama delendo est! (And Saddam)
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 11:48:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 12:46:46 PM EDT
In the past, there were basically NO controls on distribution of laboratory grade anthrax. It could be ordered by almost anybody for "research purposes". DaMan
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 2:29:54 PM EDT
Why use the Ames strain virus? Simple,plausible denial. If the US determined the anthrax species to be of soviet origin, it would point right at Iraq since they bought most of their bio& chem weapons technology from the old USSR. The US` longstanding policy is simply all weapons of mass destruction are the same. You hit us with bio or chem;we nuke your ass. I don`t think Saddam has the stones for those consequences.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 2:59:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mcgredo: Anthrax is also the subject of agricultural research (hence the Ames connection.) To be used in areosol form the spores would have to be weaponized in a fairly tricky process to get the spores just the right size. As a technique for killing people anthrax has so far been a bust. They've gotten one kill and a few exposures. They'd have been better off with a drive-by. Of course the press is playing this up (in part because they're a target.) Osama delendo est! (And Saddam)
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Yes, mcgredo! I always rely on the information you provide! Great information about John (the hero?) McCain! And NOW great information about anthrax! Guess you never heard about the accident with "research grade" anthrax in Sverdlovsk (Ekaterinburg)in 1979. This killed many people! Not "weapons grade"! Yep, the weapons grade stuff is just laughable! THIS IS JUST A TEST! THE ALTERED WEAPONS GRADE SHEET IS TRACEABLE! THE IOWA (AMES).... SHEET is deniable! DO YOU UNDERSTAND? DaMan
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 3:10:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2001 3:05:45 PM EDT by MG_ME]
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: When Hussein was supplied with the biologicals during the Iran/Iraq war, Iraq was our "friend", just like the Northern Alliance is right now...
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what are you saying that iraq is not are friend! comon; during the cold war we [b]gave[/b] the mujhaddeen SAM'S to fight, [b]then[/b] are enemy, [b]now[/b] are friend also iran sypathizes with us now!!! wtf! we change friends so fast i cannot keep up who's who!!!
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 3:59:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2001 3:54:44 PM EDT by mcgredo]
See the AMA account of anthrax at [url]http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v281n18/ffull/jst80027.html[/url]. "Modern mortality rates in the setting of contemporary medical and supportive therapy might be lower than those reported historically. However, the 1979 Sverdlovsk experience is not instructive. Although antibiotics, antianthrax globulin, corticosteroids, and mechanical ventilation were used, individual clinical records have not been made public. It is also uncertain if the B anthracis strain to which patients were exposed was susceptible to the predominant antibiotics that were used during the outbreak." "If an environmental surface is proved to be heavily contaminated with anthrax spores in the immediate area of a spill or close proximity to the point of release of an anthrax aerosol, decontamination of that area may decrease the slight risk of acquiring anthrax by secondary aerosolization. However, decontamination of large urban areas or even a building following an exposure to an anthrax aerosol would be extremely difficult and is not indicated. Although the risk of disease caused by secondary aerosolization would be extremely low, it would be difficult to offer absolute assurance that there was not risk whatsoever. Postexposure vaccination, if vaccine were available, might be a possible intervention that could further lower the risk of anthrax infection in this setting." The Sverdlovsk release is written up in _Science_, Nov. 18 1994. Sverdlovsk has about a million in population; about 100 were killed, despite very limited vaccinations (about 70K of the population) and the questionable Soviet health care system. Those downwind of the release and within the plume numbered in the tens of thousands. (The plume, about 50 km long, blew away from the city.) This was a weaponized version of anthrax, so it was optimized for aeresol dispersion, but was not engineered to be antibiotic resistant. [url]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/plague/sverdlovsk/alibekov.html[/url]. Notice that the Reno letter apparently wasn't aerosolized, and all involved have so far tested negative. At NBC one person came down with cutaneous anthrax, and several others were exposed to doses of down to one spore. The most effective use seems to be at FL, and there only one person has died, with several others testing postive for exposure but not the disease. When used as a weapon by militaries that know what they're doing, anthrax might well be very deadly. But there are some requirements: 1) they need a weaponized version with appropriate spore size, so that the spores will remain suspended in air for a reasonable amount of time and be inhaled; 2) a delivery system to efficiently distribute the anthrax; 3) enough of it to be deadly. The Reno attack failed on (1). The NY and FL attacks have been mostly ineffective because of (2). The Aum Shinrikyo cult in Japan deliberately released anthrax spores four times, but no one died. The terrorists would have been better off with letter bombs or a drive-by, from a casualty standpoint. And, btw, their targeting of the press was a bone-headed move. As a general rule you don't want people who buy ink by the barrel pissed off at you. It's likely the TV and print people will be enthusiastic cheerleaders for skinning bin Laden alive from now on. See also [url]http://www.anthrax.osd.mil/Site_Files/Library/HPSP.html[/url] Osama delendo est.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 4:11:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By goneshootin: Fox news quoting the London Times Says that the anthrax being used in the US links directly back to Saddam.
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I hope so. That'd be good for two reasons: 1. It shows how ineffective iraq is. They may have biological agents, but if this is their doing, they don't know how to effectively use it as a weapon. 2. We now have a completely legitimate excuse for annihilating him.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 7:23:13 PM EDT
Yes, mcgredo! But the Sverdlovsk release was limited, accidental, and the wind moving the spores AWAY from the city! But even though it was not intentionally released and from inside a building, it spread enough spores to kill over 100 people standing downwind and made many many more extremely ill. Yeh, this stuff is nothing to worry about! YUP! Hate to see what this stuff would do if intentionally released under favorable conditions! DaMan
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 7:54:32 PM EDT
It is not terribly simple to creat multi-drug resistant bacteria. My SUSPICION is that if the strain actually came from Iraq it was probably stolen by someone sympathetic to Bin Laden. I don't think that Saddam has a death wish, whatever else you say about him. Just a thought.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 8:11:36 PM EDT
Now don't hold me to this, but I think that the Ames strain was given to gov'ts around the world so that they could mfg. vaccines.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 8:43:00 PM EDT
... I'm so tired of this BS anthrax hype. It's a non-problem. What I'm much more concerned about is that ONE rouge nuke out there in the wrong hands. They only need ONE to detonate in LA, NYC or Chicago in the back of a truck to bring this already frail country to an economic standstill. ... I sure pray it doesn't happen ... But on the bright side, if it happened, it may really polarize the world against terrorists; what ever that is.
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 9:03:18 PM EDT
Well, We all know Gerry Adams was developing artillery improvements for Iraq, But the US also rented CRAY 2 computer time @ Aberdeen proving Ground for computer modeling of effects of various weapons effects. I would not be surprised if Chem / Bio was one of them Ed
Link Posted: 10/14/2001 9:19:35 PM EDT
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Link Posted: 10/14/2001 9:30:11 PM EDT
Finally, Sadam will be called to task for kicking out our inspectors. It's a gift, all the excuse we need to annialate his NBC and conventional capability. Better now than later.
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