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LesBaer45
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Posted: 7/4/2007 9:40:11 PM

Originally Posted By CSM:

Originally Posted By 87GN:

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

Originally Posted By CSM:
It would, but the range on the T-6 is limited. I don't know if they have capability for external tanks or more internals, but an 8-12hr loiter time would be key in this mission.


If I were designing the weapon stations I'd put the plumbing in for drop tanks plumbing.




Whats really scary is if they let Women fly them, what are they gonna do!??


I don't understand all this manned aircraft + high loiter time. I thought that was UAV territory?
paris-dakar
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Posted: 7/4/2007 11:01:15 PM

Originally Posted By SkyCatII:
Sounds like they want the same sort of setup they had when they were using the old A-26 "Counter Invaders" during the run-up to the Vietnam war.


Or the AU1 Corsairs the French flew in Algeria.
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Posted: 7/5/2007 2:53:06 AM

Originally Posted By LesBaer45:

Originally Posted By CSM:

Originally Posted By 87GN:

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

Originally Posted By CSM:
It would, but the range on the T-6 is limited. I don't know if they have capability for external tanks or more internals, but an 8-12hr loiter time would be key in this mission.


If I were designing the weapon stations I'd put the plumbing in for drop tanks plumbing.




Whats really scary is if they let Women fly them, what are they gonna do!??


I don't understand all this manned aircraft + high loiter time. I thought that was UAV territory?


Because, if you want a real guy, or a forward air controller on station with ordinance or gun, you want loiter time. Also, these planes aren't fast by jet standards, they need time to get somewhere.

FACs can't ride UAVs, and UAVs can't do all the jobs a good attack/observer pilot can do.
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87GN
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Posted: 7/5/2007 2:55:10 AM
[Last Edit: 7/5/2007 2:57:10 AM by 87GN]
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Posted: 7/5/2007 3:04:36 AM

Originally Posted By Gamma762:
Wonder what the cost comparison would be to outfit this entire wing versus the cost of an F22...






Compare the missions.
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CSM
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Posted: 7/5/2007 3:21:54 AM

Originally Posted By 2A373:

Originally Posted By Gamma762:
Wonder what the cost comparison would be to outfit this entire wing versus the cost of an F22...






Compare the missions.


To get enough turboprops to defend against top of the line Su-35s & Migs, it would probably be somewhere in the realm of 3000 turboprops per Mig. So, the F-22 is dirt cheap!
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xsquid
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Posted: 7/5/2007 4:10:55 AM

Originally Posted By paris-dakar:

Originally Posted By SkyCatII:
Sounds like they want the same sort of setup they had when they were using the old A-26 "Counter Invaders" during the run-up to the Vietnam war.


Or the AU1 Corsairs the French flew in Algeria.




Or the F8 Bearcats that the Frog's flew in Vietnam

JS98010
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Posted: 7/5/2007 4:17:29 AM

Originally Posted By KA3B:
Piper PA-48 Enforcer.

aircraftwalkaround.hobbyvista.com/pa_48_enforcer/pa48_01.jpg


Because the world is just crawling with donor P-51D airframes.
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Posted: 7/5/2007 4:19:01 AM

Originally Posted By CSM:

Whats really scary is if they let Women fly them, what are they gonna do!??


"Genitalia" is not an Italian airline.
Mateba
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Posted: 7/5/2007 4:20:19 AM
My dad flew A-1s in Vietnam
Mateba
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Posted: 7/5/2007 4:23:40 AM
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Posted: 7/5/2007 5:00:31 AM
Pilatus Porter...












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Posted: 7/5/2007 5:15:26 AM
Would it really be a stretch to design unmanned aircraft so they can do the occasional strafing run in addition to their surveillance and high altitude attack work?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MQ-9_Reaper
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Posted: 7/5/2007 5:54:44 AM
[Last Edit: 7/5/2007 5:56:03 AM by newbushmaster]
How about the Piper Meridian. 250 kts. or so, 1k nm cruise range, $2 million. Could easily hold some rockets, pair of AGM-114s, or a pair of mini-guns/ MaDeuces- whatever. The best thing about the Meridian is that it is currently being built and available for sale, .gov could have them built to their specs. and over there in a short period of time.


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Posted: 7/5/2007 6:25:50 AM
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Posted: 7/5/2007 11:44:57 AM
Bring the OV-10s back.

Remove the 4 M-60Os from the sponsons.

Install 2 M-134 "miniguns" in their place.

Use the 5 hardpoints for various weaponry/fuel tank configurations

Use the two hardpoints on the wings for the same.

Add FLIR, laser designators, and all kinds of other cool gizmos(coffee machine and sack bar, if there's room)


Best part is how little this would cost. No need to buy new aircraft, just use the existing OV10s. Upgrade them with all the cool shit, and there ya have it!

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Posted: 7/5/2007 11:52:28 AM

Originally Posted By Dog1:
Why not just use a few A-10's?


Just a guess, but I would think that a turbo-prop would be a lot more FOD-tolerant than a jet, making them better suited for rough airstrips.
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Posted: 7/5/2007 12:04:32 PM

Originally Posted By CSM:

Originally Posted By KA3B:
Piper PA-48 Enforcer.

aircraftwalkaround.hobbyvista.com/pa_48_enforcer/pa48_01.jpg


Best performance out of anything posted yet, but I doubt if conventional gear would be used today. Although, special forces guys are known to think outside the box. I also like that its Aluminum, not composite. Doing good composite repair in the boonies might be difficult.


There's nbo wasted space under that wing!
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stickfigure
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Posted: 7/5/2007 12:08:05 PM
[Last Edit: 7/5/2007 12:12:08 PM by stickfigure]
AFSOC has a long history of strapping guns and rockets to whatever they can get ahold of at the time for CAS.

After Vietnam all that stuff went away, now we are fighting more "dirty" wars that require some thinking beyond jets and bombers...

In the AFSOC static display down in Hurlbert there is a ton of old school planes that are prime examples of this. A-1 Skyraider, AT-37 Drangonfly, OV-10 Bronco, O-2, an A-26 and a B-25 modified to fire Vietnam Era gun and rocket pods besides their own .50 cal nose guns. Besides several other planes and of course the AC-47, AC-119 and AC-130's.

Here is a list of all the Aircraft in the Park

A1-E Skyraider
A-26 Counter Invader
AC-130A Spectre
B-25J Mitchell
AC-119 Shadow
C-123K Provider
C-46 Commando
AC-47 Spooky
H-3 Jolly Green
O-1E Bird Dog
O-2A Skymaster
T-28 Trojan
OA-37B Dragonfly
OV-10 Bronco
U-10A Courier
UH-1P Huey

http://www2.hurlburt.af.mil/library/
Essayons
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Posted: 7/5/2007 1:28:17 PM
[Last Edit: 7/5/2007 1:31:17 PM by Essayons]
I stumbled accross the interesting idea of modifying the C12 at: LINK (about 3/4 down the page)

How about dusting off the Scaled Composite Ares "Mudfighter" concept






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Paveway_
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Posted: 7/5/2007 1:33:43 PM

Originally Posted By 87GN:

Originally Posted By KA3B:
I vote for the Twin Otter.

a52.g.akamaitech.net/f/52/827/1d/www.space.com/images/ig_26_05_arctic_pack_mule.jpg
Dirt

www.sfu.ca/~jeffr/plane.jpg
Water

www.forceaerienne.forces.gc.ca/equip/grfx/equip_gallery/twin_otter_cc138/wallpaper/TwinOtter6.jpg
Pavement

www.stolaf.edu/other/cegsic/itase/images/traverse_2000/twin_otter.jpg
Snow


Regular old Otter (turbine otter in this case) would do just fine.

www.azbattlerifles.com/images/hoodotter2.JPG


Na, go with PC-6's since they are still in production (i think):

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Posted: 7/5/2007 1:36:15 PM

Originally Posted By Nimrod1193:

Originally Posted By Dog1:
Why not just use a few A-10's?


Just a guess, but I would think that a turbo-prop would be a lot more FOD-tolerant than a jet, making them better suited for rough airstrips.


A-10's were designed for rough airstrips. The intakes are shielded from FOD by the wings, a deliberate design feature.

Between AC-130, A-10's, CV-22's and current helos, I fail to see a need for a new type in the inventory.

Sure there might be merit for a new unit formed, and maybe additional numbers of the aformentioned a/c added, but really a turboprop CAS/COIN a/c when the A-10 was made for this role.

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Posted: 7/5/2007 1:39:19 PM

Originally Posted By Essayons:
I stumbled accross the interesting idea of modifying the C12 at: LINK (about 3/4 down the page)

How about dusting off the Scaled Composite Ares "Mudfighter" concept

1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/KleinBernhard/4825.jpg

www.air-and-space.com/19901013%20Pt%20Mugu/901747%20Ares%20N151SC%20right%20front%20m.jpg

www.combatreform2.com/ARESmudfighter25mmgatlingcannontest.jpg


Why not add UAV controls, remove the internals required for human occupancy, and use the weight savings to for added fuel or ammo. With no canopy it could be more aerodynamic (smaller frontal area) and you could move the gun to the centerline ofthe aircraft, making it more accurate. Without a human aboard it could turn harder, too, giving it the opportunity to maneuver out of dives in ways manned aircraft cannot do.


Unmanned aircraft are the future of air combat.
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Posted: 7/5/2007 1:45:19 PM
Some more pics for the thread, since we all love pics.














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Posted: 7/5/2007 1:53:02 PM
OV-10 Bronco with new Small Diameter Bombs and some Miniguns would be super lethal.
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Posted: 7/5/2007 2:14:51 PM

Originally Posted By Essayons:
I stumbled accross the interesting idea of modifying the C12 at: LINK (about 3/4 down the page)

...


Killer Bees - interesting - That A-1 would look cool done up in a yellow & black scheme.
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Posted: 7/5/2007 2:28:34 PM
[Last Edit: 7/5/2007 2:32:21 PM by Essayons]
I really like the FAIRCHILD AU-23A and HELIO AU-24A! I can't find it, but I remember seeing an AMAZING photo of a tiny mountaintop strip in Southeast Asia that AU-23s and AU-24s flew in and out of.



...the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions - everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: BREAD AND CIRCUSES
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Posted: 7/5/2007 3:46:05 PM

Originally Posted By KA3B:
DATE:02/07/07
SOURCE:Flight International
US Air Force planners want irreguar warfare wing
By Stephen Trimble

"The USAF should establish an irregular warfare wing capable of providing
assistance to partner nations across the full spectrum in developing and
employing indigenous air and space power to defeat irregular internal
threats," says the AFSOC document, which includes a foreword signed by its
commander, Lt Gen Michael Wooley.


Think of it this way, these "partner nations" will probably be third world. These partner nations are going to want to have their people in the cockpits of these aircraft. The few pilots that these partner nations may have, arent going t o know what the hell to do in these far sophisticated aircraft. Chances are if these partner nation have any assets, they are going to be rather low-tech. Hence why a two-seat attack aircraft, turbo prop driven, is best.

I think whatever aircraft this wing gets, ALL personnel should be trained in ground combat. These pilots and crews may be required to one day repel an attack on their FOB.
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injun-ear
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Posted: 7/5/2007 3:49:49 PM

Originally Posted By prk:

"The USAF should establish an irregular warfare wing capable of providing
assistance to partner nations across the full spectrum in developing and
employing indigenous air and space power to defeat irregular internal
threats," says the AFSOC document, which includes a foreword signed by its
commander, Lt Gen Michael Wooley.



Sounds like they're spinning this to hint that the role would not be in support of U.S. Forces, maybe to avoid criticism that we already have the assets we need. Or if there's a better explanation for this statement, please let us hear from the X-spurts.

And what are they thinking of with space power?


I was thinking something like: We'll buy a/c from your country if y'all'll get of the fence.
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Posted: 7/5/2007 3:58:41 PM
[Last Edit: 7/5/2007 3:59:03 PM by wise_jake]

Originally Posted By PSYWAR1-0:
Families Want Scrutiny Of Drug War In Colombia
Georgia Pilot's Parents Say He Was Sent To His Death In An Unsuitable Plane. They're Suing.
By Bill Torpy
Return to Drug War News: Don't Miss Archive

<snip>

After the first crash, the suit alleges, Northrop Grumman and other corporate and government officials created a separate corporation, CIAO Inc., "to protect their profit margin by trying to insulate themselves from liability." Oliver and his crew were "terminated" by Northrop Grumman as they prepared to search for their colleagues and told their contracts had been switched to the newly created CIAO, the suit alleges.

<snip>

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but..... damn. Couldn't they have found a better/different name than that?

I'm not the most PC of people, but that sounds to be in poor taste, all things considered.
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Posted: 7/5/2007 4:02:17 PM

Originally Posted By injun-ear:

Originally Posted By prk:

"The USAF should establish an irregular warfare wing capable of providing
assistance to partner nations across the full spectrum in developing and
employing indigenous air and space power to defeat irregular internal
threats," says the AFSOC document, which includes a foreword signed by its
commander, Lt Gen Michael Wooley.



Sounds like they're spinning this to hint that the role would not be in support of U.S. Forces, maybe to avoid criticism that we already have the assets we need. Or if there's a better explanation for this statement, please let us hear from the X-spurts.

And what are they thinking of with space power?


I was thinking something like: We'll buy a/c from your country if y'all'll get of the fence.


I can't think of one aircraft I'd want to fly into combat that's produced by a country "on the fence" about the war on terror.
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Posted: 7/5/2007 4:15:19 PM
Rutan is a genius...........that would be a cool ground attack aircraft


Originally Posted By Essayons:
I stumbled accross the interesting idea of modifying the C12 at: LINK (about 3/4 down the page)

How about dusting off the Scaled Composite Ares "Mudfighter" concept

1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/KleinBernhard/4825.jpg

www.air-and-space.com/19901013%20Pt%20Mugu/901747%20Ares%20N151SC%20right%20front%20m.jpg

www.combatreform2.com/ARESmudfighter25mmgatlingcannontest.jpg
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Posted: 7/5/2007 4:16:08 PM
I heard talk that they were considering utilizing the soon to close Willow Grove Naval Air Station in suburban Philadelphia as some sort of Black Ops base...
wise_jake
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Posted: 7/5/2007 5:13:23 PM

Originally Posted By RWC57:
I heard talk that they were considering utilizing the soon to close Willow Grove Naval Air Station in suburban Philadelphia as some sort of Black Ops base...

Could be bullshit, could be some semblance of the truth, could be "other".

Whenever the status quo is threatened, opportunity rears its wonderfully-ugly head.
Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. - Ambrose Bierce

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Posted: 7/5/2007 5:24:10 PM


Is this the same type of aircraft that blew those missionaries out of the sky over south america a few years back? I think the wife of the pilot and one other passenger ( one of the children) was killed.
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Posted: 7/5/2007 6:57:15 PM

Originally Posted By KA3B:
Piper PA-48 Enforcer.

aircraftwalkaround.hobbyvista.com/pa_48_enforcer/pa48_01.jpg


beat me to it:

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Posted: 7/5/2007 7:05:14 PM
[Last Edit: 7/5/2007 7:05:49 PM by FAIL-SAFE]

Originally Posted By Paveway_:



What aircraft is this? Its almost perfect!
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Posted: 7/5/2007 7:09:30 PM

Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:

Originally Posted By Paveway_:
www.choiquehobbies.com.ar/revista/notas/pucara3/fotos/Pucara%20SL.jpg


What aircraft is this? Its almost perfect!


Pacura
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Posted: 7/5/2007 8:35:30 PM

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:

Originally Posted By Paveway_:
www.choiquehobbies.com.ar/revista/notas/pucara3/fotos/Pucara%20SL.jpg


What aircraft is this? Its almost perfect!


Pacura


Ok looking over its stats I'd say the gun role is well covered with 20mms and 4 7.62x51s. I'd say an American version would have maybe a single 20mm, similar to that on aCobra, and maybe two M-134s.

The engines could stand to have a good robust American turboprop, something with maybe 1K+ HP. The thing can already scoot, at well over 400MPH for Max speed, and around 300MPH at cruising, but added output would probably be needed for weaponry and surveilance equipment.

It has decent storage for other, heavier weapons, with 3 hardpoints. Triple Ejector Racks will improve that, but they are heavy too. Perhaps if we got ahold of it, provisions could be made for a centerline external fuel tank, and put two more hardpoints to the side of side tank. I dunno, maybe the external tank isnt needed.

Sorry, but lil turboprop planes like this one, the OV1, and OV10 get me excited! I dunno why, but it maybe because they are low tech.
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Posted: 7/5/2007 8:39:31 PM
OV-10 Bronco was still used in Desert Storm...
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Posted: 7/6/2007 1:00:20 PM
BUMP for more irregualr warfare goodness!
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Posted: 7/6/2007 1:39:05 PM


Pucara and a SF-260 armed trainer.

A note on the Pucara, its not in production anymore, and the Argentinians never liked it much. Heard rumors of weak landing gear and similar problems.

What if we gave the T-6 Texan II the turbos from a C-130 instead of that little piddly thing they have now
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Posted: 7/6/2007 2:10:15 PM
Paveway, that lil TexanII seems like its a great plane. I did some Google work on the TexanII and supposedly USAF is looking at this plane as a FAC(ahhh, just think, "HIT MY SMOKE"). Damned if it doesnt seem perfect for that role! Its a 2-seater, its quick, the Freaks Greeks are already using it as such, as well as light attack.


However, for this lil irregular warrfare thing, I think they are looking for attack capable as a first job. Wouldnt it be best to have a 2 engined turbo prop plane for such a job? Battle damage is a real threat, obviously, so having a second engine would seem to be benficiary.

As for the Pacura, could a US company such as Raytheon, Vought(LTV), or even Bell purchase the rights to the airframe, tooling, etc from Argentina(last I checked, their economy still sucks), and build an upgraded version here?
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Posted: 7/6/2007 2:16:19 PM
[Last Edit: 7/6/2007 2:18:50 PM by joe-bananas]
The Air Force used to have this capability back in the early 60s with the 1st Air Commando Squadron. Based in Vietnam, South and Central America, they had unconventional ground warfare, force multiplier and nation-building capabilities as well as unconventional arial warefare missions that used Helio Couriers, A-1 Skyraiders, On-Mark A26 invaders, Cessna 337s, C-47 goonie birds and spookies, C-46 Commandos, C-119s and a number of other birds.

Curtis LeMay thought these airmen to be on par with SEALs or Green Berets. Missions overlapped in some cases. LeMay moved on and the 'modern' Air Force no longer wanted anything to do with specialized 'ground' troops and piston-engined aircraft that flew low and slow.

The PA-48 Enforcer or updated OV-10 would be perfect for the mission. Two engines makes and Bronco especially appealing -- and the high wing mount makes visibility a bonus over the Pucara twin-engined ground attack ship from South America.
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Posted: 7/6/2007 2:21:56 PM
[Last Edit: 7/6/2007 2:22:45 PM by Essayons]
+1 on the OV10 - I've always loved those. Are they in storage?

More from www.combatreform2.com/killerbees3.htm (including a twin-turboprop):


In storage now awaiting a use:

http://www.geocities.com/usarmyaviationdigest/a10sinmothballs.jpg

83 x A-4 SkyHawks (mostly late-model Ms) better than AV-8Bs

156 x A-10 Warthogs

and.........

227 x A-7 Corsair IIs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

20 x are 2-seat A-7Ks! Could be great for AFAC work.....as "OA-7Ks".

So why not have the U.S. Army doing ECAS AFAC liaison work using either converted T-37s or A-10s or A-7s?

The aircraft are there (A-4s, A-7s, A-10s) or will soon be there (T-37s)...all we need is Congress to weigh in on the CAS and make our military have the capability it critically lacks!
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Is there a fixed-wing aircraft already in U.S. Army service TODAY that could be modified to be an INTERIM observation/attack aircraft? An "AV-22" but without the V/TOL tilt-rotor aspects but good SHORT take-off and landing capabilities....

YES THERE IS!

Pappy Gunn (guy who armed B-25 noses with multiple .50 cal HMGs etc. in SW Pacific in WWII for Gen Kenney) and Jay Vanderpool (armed Army helicopters) look out!

http://www.geocities.com/tacticalstudiesgroup/ov12banking.jpg

The RC-12 Guardrail for ELINT and C-12 for flying the senior official ("the brass") around.

The RC/C-12 is a Raytheon (formerly Beechcraft) model KingAir 200 high-performance turboprop plane.

OK. Why not arm it?

The U.S. Army can logistically support/maintain and fly these aircraft for years at a time.

DoD owns and operates over 300 C-12s!

In case you doubt this, consider that in the book, "Chariots of the Damned" USAF Major Mike McKinney and Mike Ryan on page 8 describe how an U.S. Army U-21 turboprop aircraft--the forerunner to the C-12---was flown over Koh Tang island to gain observation/recon info. You have to use what's available to get the job done!

CONSIDER THE C-12's RAW PERFORMANCE POTENTIAL:

C-12 Overview

The C-12 Huron, an executive passenger and cargo aircraft, is the military version of the Beech Model 200 Super King Air. The prefix "Super" was later dropped by Raytheon (who had acquired Beechcraft) in 1996. The aircraft is a high-performance, twin-engine turboprop that accommodates a pilot, co-pilot, and eight passengers. It first flew on 27 October 1972 and was adopted by all U.S. armed services (except the Coast Guard), with more than 300 currently active.

The C-12 provides on-call, rapid response, modern air transport for high priority supply and movement of key personnel. Specifically, it is used for VIP transport or to deliver repair parts, equipment, and accident investigation teams wherever needed. Its support role also includes such functions as range clearance, medical evacuation, administrative movement of personnel, transportation connections, and courier flights.

The first three production King Airs were delivered in 1974 to the U.S. Army as RU-21J (later redesignated C-12L) electronic warfare and intelligence-gathering equipment testbeds. In the same year, standard King Airs were obtained off-the-shelf as staff transports by all four U.S. armed services simultaneously, the U.S. Army and USAF aircraft being assigned the designation C-12A, and those for the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps (with cargo doors, more powerful engines and high-flotation undercarriages) being designated as UC-12B. All versions were given the name Huron.

Deliveries of the King Air 200 to the USAF as an operational support aircraft under the designation C-12F began in May 1984, these having side cargo doors and payload choices including two casualty litters plus attendants. Forty were purchased by the USAF after an initial five-year lease, six were supplied to the Air National Guard and 17 were delivered to the U.S. Army. The U.S. Navy also obtained 12 UC-12Fs (equivalent to the C-12F) and these, together with the some UC-12Bs, were upgraded to UC-12M standard from 1987.

Official Designation: C-12F
Primary Role: Staff transport

Specifications

Wingspan: 54 feet, 6 inches (16.61m)
Length: 43 feet, 9 inches (13.34m)
Height: 15 feet (4.57m)
Armament: None [We can fix this!]
Engines: Two Pratt & Whitney PT6A-42 turboprops
Horsepower: 850 shp (634kW) per engine
Crew: 2

Weights

Operating Weight: 8,060 pounds (3,656kg)
Max Takeoff Weight: 12,500 pounds (5,670kg)
Max Payload: 2,647 pounds (1,201kg) or 8 passengers


Performance Cruise Speed: 325 mph (523km/h)
Max Speed: 339 mph (545km/h)
Range: 1,965 nm (3,641km)
Service Ceiling: 25,000 feet (7,620m)


Beech C-12J

Generally similar to the C-12F except in the following particulars: Fuselage and tail: length 57 ft 10 in (17.63 m); height 14 ft 11 in (4.55 m); tailplane span 18 ft 6 in (5.64 m); wheel base 23 ft 10 in (7.26 m) Powerplant: two Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-65B each rated at 1,100 shp (820 kW)

Weights: typical empty 9,100 lb (4128 kg); maximum take-off 16,600 lb (7530 kg)

Fuel and load: internal fuel 4,470 (2027 kg); maximum payload 1,910 (866 kg)

Speed: maximum cruising speed at 25,000 ft (7620 m) 292 mph (471 km/h) Range: range with 15 passengers at high-speed cruising power 1,481 miles (2383 km)

Performance: maximum rate of climb at sea level 2,330 ft (710 m) per minute; service ceiling more than 25,000 ft (7620 m); take-off distance 3,250 ft (991 m) to 50 ft (15 m); landing distance 2,540 ft (774 m) from 50 ft (15 m)

RC-12N/P/Q

Endurance: 5.5 hours
Cruises at 300 mph
Weight with Guardrail sensors: 16,000 pounds
Range 1,400 miles

OV-12 INTERIM ASP PROPOSAL

http://www.geocities.com/tacticalstudiesgroup/ov12featurestn.jpg

Now consider if the C-12 had a new 9g stressed wing for attack profiles and ordnance carrying hard points....

1-2 x Observer/Gunners in the fuselage with two side-firing .50 cal GAU-19/As or 30mm ASP autocannon on left and right sides to prevent being limited to one type of turning attack like AC-130Us are.

FLIR and image intensifier sensors for target ID

Laser rangefinder and target designator

Dive brakes on fuselage.

Pilot's HUD with gun pod and rocket aiming imagery/fire control.

Hardpoints under the wings for .50 cal GAU-19/A gun pods, 2.75" Hydra-70 rockets and small bombs or Hellfire, Stinger, Sidewinder missiles.

Armor around pilot's area, engines and fuel tanks

Low-visibility Camouflage paint scheme

All crew wear bail-out parachutes and E&R gear.

Recovery Parachute to deliver entire aircraft to ground to be retrofitted later

ECM (chaff)/IRCMs (flares)

Yes, we can put a laser weapon in the OV-12 to burn the eyes out of MANPADS gunners. There I said it.

Some have suggested the tilt-rotor as a smaller "AV-22" gunship would make a good CS attack bird. Why wait for the tilt rotor? We got the fast forward flight from the fixed-wing and non-tilting engine C-12 NOW!

"OV-12" Sounds like its more advanced than the OV-1 and OV-10.....

Missions

MAS COP Observation
Attack
Forward Air Control
SOF/LRSU/Ranger Paratroop insertion/extraction
CASEVAC

Remove the side .50 caliber gatling or ASP-30mm guns. Fuselage is now free to airdrop either by static-line or rip-cord activated round or ram-air parachutes a SF team or a Long Range Surveillance Unit (LRSU) team covertly into an area from high or low-altitude. Has high t-tail not even close to a parachute or static-line/d-bag fouling with it! By being ARMED it can self-escort itself (AIM-9X or Stinger AAMs?) to and from the dummy and actual drop zones. Can land and extract Soldiers if suitable stretch of highway or road is determined. Saves the Army BIG $$$$ on "renting" large 64-92 seat USAF C-130s just to insert a small team of men into an area. Afghanistan SF Soldiers have expressed dis-satisfaction with the availability of aircraft to do missions--why not have 160th SOAR own and operate some attack/transport OV-12s?

Vanilla C-12 is $2 million. With weaponry and defensive countermeasures, armor and sensors say what, $4 million?

Drop-in-the-bucket compared to a F-22 or V-22 ($80 million each).

For price of one unarmed V-22 deathtrap that could insert at best 24 men (if it doesn't crash and burn first), we could have 20 (almost two squadrons!!!) of SAFE, ARMED OV-12s that could insert, gulp: 160 LGOPs Paratroops (Ranger Rifle Company and a half!).

Self-deploys from CONUS with external fuel tanks (YES!!! YESS! YESS!)

The Brass has been flying around 300 of these C-12s as VIPs...they are already in the DoD "system"....we are not buying a "new" aircraft"....have NG and USAR pilots who lost their UH-1s and AH-1s fly the OV-12s........Attack Pathfinders could serve tours as observer/gunners, too! A mirror image of what we want to do with the OA-10Bs: give the FAC an understanding from the-ground-up and from the-sky-down....
...the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions - everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: BREAD AND CIRCUSES
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Posted: 7/7/2007 1:02:05 AM

Originally Posted By Paveway_:


What if we gave the T-6 Texan II the turbos from a C-130 instead of that little piddly thing they have now



Have you ever seen a T-6 II?
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Posted: 7/9/2007 9:53:53 PM

Originally Posted By paris-dakar:

Originally Posted By SkyCatII:
Sounds like they want the same sort of setup they had when they were using the old A-26 "Counter Invaders" during the run-up to the Vietnam war.


Or the AU1 Corsairs the French flew in Algeria.


+1!. We also used them in Korea.

P-47Ns would work well, too.

A melding of the R-2800 with modern technology could be really interesting.
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Posted: 7/9/2007 10:13:38 PM

Originally Posted By Dog1:
Why not just use a few A-10's?



Expensive.

High maitennance.

Lots of "extras" needed.


I like the idea of a modern day British Typhoon.
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Posted: 7/10/2007 2:23:36 PM
[Last Edit: 7/10/2007 2:23:57 PM by Essayons]

Originally Posted By JRBL1A1:

Originally Posted By Dog1:
Why not just use a few A-10's?



Expensive.

High maitennance.

Lots of "extras" needed.


+1 - It's all about bang for the buck. I'm betting they'll pull something off the shelf or out of storage (OV10s), although I sort of wish they'd hire Burt Rutan to come up with something new (maybe a composite airframe with integral composite armor around the crew compartment and other critical areas) . . .
...the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions - everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: BREAD AND CIRCUSES
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Posted: 7/12/2007 11:27:54 AM
Keep this stuff going, its fascinating!
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