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Posted: 7/4/2007 5:40:11 PM EDT
[#1]
I don't understand all this manned aircraft + high loiter time. I thought that was UAV territory? 
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Posted: 7/4/2007 7:01:15 PM EDT
[#2]
Or the AU1 Corsairs the French flew in Algeria. |
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Posted: 7/4/2007 10:53:06 PM EDT
[#3]
Because, if you want a real guy, or a forward air controller on station with ordinance or gun, you want loiter time. Also, these planes aren't fast by jet standards, they need time to get somewhere. FACs can't ride UAVs, and UAVs can't do all the jobs a good attack/observer pilot can do. |
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Posted: 7/4/2007 10:55:10 PM EDT
[#4]
Regular old Otter (turbine otter in this case) would do just fine.  
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Posted: 7/4/2007 11:04:36 PM EDT
[#5]
 Compare the missions. |
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Posted: 7/4/2007 11:21:54 PM EDT
[#6]
To get enough turboprops to defend against top of the line Su-35s & Migs, it would probably be somewhere in the realm of 3000 turboprops per Mig. So, the F-22 is dirt cheap! |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 12:10:55 AM EDT
[#7]
 Or the F8 Bearcats that the Frog's flew in Vietnam |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 12:17:29 AM EDT
[#8]
Because the world is just crawling with donor P-51D airframes. 
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Posted: 7/5/2007 12:19:01 AM EDT
[#9]
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Posted: 7/5/2007 12:20:19 AM EDT
[#10]
My dad flew A-1s in Vietnam
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Posted: 7/5/2007 12:23:40 AM EDT
[#11]
I flew in one of those in the arctic. Those things will take anything. |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 1:00:31 AM EDT
[#12]
Pilatus Porter...
Hell everyone else is throwing in their picks...
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Posted: 7/5/2007 1:15:26 AM EDT
[#13]
Would it really be a stretch to design unmanned aircraft so they can do the occasional strafing run in addition to their surveillance and high altitude attack work?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MQ-9_Reaper |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 1:54:44 AM EDT
[#14]
How about the Piper Meridian. 250 kts. or so, 1k nm cruise range, $2 million. Could easily hold some rockets, pair of AGM-114s, or a pair of mini-guns/ MaDeuces- whatever. The best thing about the Meridian is that it is currently being built and available for sale, .gov could have them built to their specs. and over there in a short period of time.
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Posted: 7/5/2007 2:25:50 AM EDT
[#15]
Bad-ASS!
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Posted: 7/5/2007 7:44:57 AM EDT
[#16]
Bring the OV-10s back.
Remove the 4 M-60Os from the sponsons. Install 2 M-134 "miniguns" in their place. Use the 5 hardpoints for various weaponry/fuel tank configurations Use the two hardpoints on the wings for the same. Add FLIR, laser designators, and all kinds of other cool gizmos(coffee machine and sack bar, if there's room) Best part is how little this would cost. No need to buy new aircraft, just use the existing OV10s. Upgrade them with all the cool shit, and there ya have it! |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 7:52:28 AM EDT
[#17]
Just a guess, but I would think that a turbo-prop would be a lot more FOD-tolerant than a jet, making them better suited for rough airstrips. |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 8:04:32 AM EDT
[#18]
There's nbo wasted space under that wing! |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 8:08:05 AM EDT
[#19]
AFSOC has a long history of strapping guns and rockets to whatever they can get ahold of at the time for CAS.
After Vietnam all that stuff went away, now we are fighting more "dirty" wars that require some thinking beyond jets and bombers... In the AFSOC static display down in Hurlbert there is a ton of old school planes that are prime examples of this. A-1 Skyraider, AT-37 Drangonfly, OV-10 Bronco, O-2, an A-26 and a B-25 modified to fire Vietnam Era gun and rocket pods besides their own .50 cal nose guns. Besides several other planes and of course the AC-47, AC-119 and AC-130's. Here is a list of all the Aircraft in the Park A1-E Skyraider A-26 Counter Invader AC-130A Spectre B-25J Mitchell AC-119 Shadow C-123K Provider C-46 Commando AC-47 Spooky H-3 Jolly Green O-1E Bird Dog O-2A Skymaster T-28 Trojan OA-37B Dragonfly OV-10 Bronco U-10A Courier UH-1P Huey http://www2.hurlburt.af.mil/library/ |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 9:28:17 AM EDT
[#20]
I stumbled accross the interesting idea of modifying the C12 at: LINK (about 3/4 down the page)
How about dusting off the Scaled Composite Ares "Mudfighter" concept    |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 9:33:43 AM EDT
[#21]
Na, go with PC-6's since they are still in production (i think): 
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Posted: 7/5/2007 9:36:15 AM EDT
[#22]
A-10's were designed for rough airstrips. The intakes are shielded from FOD by the wings, a deliberate design feature. Between AC-130, A-10's, CV-22's and current helos, I fail to see a need for a new type in the inventory. Sure there might be merit for a new unit formed, and maybe additional numbers of the aformentioned a/c added, but really a turboprop CAS/COIN a/c when the A-10 was made for this role. |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 9:39:19 AM EDT
[#23]
Why not add UAV controls, remove the internals required for human occupancy, and use the weight savings to for added fuel or ammo. With no canopy it could be more aerodynamic (smaller frontal area) and you could move the gun to the centerline ofthe aircraft, making it more accurate. Without a human aboard it could turn harder, too, giving it the opportunity to maneuver out of dives in ways manned aircraft cannot do. Unmanned aircraft are the future of air combat. |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 9:45:19 AM EDT
[#24]
Some more pics for the thread, since we all love pics.
      
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Posted: 7/5/2007 9:53:02 AM EDT
[#25]
OV-10 Bronco with new Small Diameter Bombs and some Miniguns would be super lethal.
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Posted: 7/5/2007 10:14:51 AM EDT
[#26]
Killer Bees - interesting - That A-1 would look cool done up in a yellow & black scheme. |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 10:28:34 AM EDT
[#27]
I really like the FAIRCHILD AU-23A and HELIO AU-24A! I can't find it, but I remember seeing an AMAZING photo of a tiny mountaintop strip in Southeast Asia that AU-23s and AU-24s flew in and out of.
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Posted: 7/5/2007 11:46:05 AM EDT
[#28]
Think of it this way, these "partner nations" will probably be third world. These partner nations are going to want to have their people in the cockpits of these aircraft. The few pilots that these partner nations may have, arent going t o know what the hell to do in these far sophisticated aircraft. Chances are if these partner nation have any assets, they are going to be rather low-tech. Hence why a two-seat attack aircraft, turbo prop driven, is best. I think whatever aircraft this wing gets, ALL personnel should be trained in ground combat. These pilots and crews may be required to one day repel an attack on their FOB. |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 11:49:49 AM EDT
[#29]
I was thinking something like: We'll buy a/c from your country if y'all'll get of the fence. |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 11:58:41 AM EDT
[#30]
Not wanting to hijack the thread, but..... damn. Couldn't they have found a better/different name than that?  I'm not the most PC of people, but that sounds to be in poor taste, all things considered. 
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Posted: 7/5/2007 12:02:17 PM EDT
[#31]
I can't think of one aircraft I'd want to fly into combat that's produced by a country "on the fence" about the war on terror. |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 12:15:19 PM EDT
[#32]
Rutan is a genius...........that would be a cool ground attack aircraft
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Posted: 7/5/2007 12:16:08 PM EDT
[#33]
I heard talk that they were considering utilizing the soon to close Willow Grove Naval Air Station in suburban Philadelphia as some sort of Black Ops base...
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Posted: 7/5/2007 1:13:23 PM EDT
[#34]
Could be bullshit, could be some semblance of the truth, could be "other". Whenever the status quo is threatened, opportunity rears its wonderfully-ugly head. |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 1:24:10 PM EDT
[#35]
 Is this the same type of aircraft that blew those missionaries out of the sky over south america a few years back? I think the wife of the pilot and one other passenger ( one of the children) was killed. |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 2:57:15 PM EDT
[#36]
beat me to it: 
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Posted: 7/5/2007 3:05:14 PM EDT
[#37]
What aircraft is this? Its almost perfect! |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 3:09:30 PM EDT
[#38]
Pacura |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 4:35:30 PM EDT
[#39]
Ok looking over its stats I'd say the gun role is well covered with 20mms and 4 7.62x51s. I'd say an American version would have maybe a single 20mm, similar to that on aCobra, and maybe two M-134s. The engines could stand to have a good robust American turboprop, something with maybe 1K+ HP. The thing can already scoot, at well over 400MPH for Max speed, and around 300MPH at cruising, but added output would probably be needed for weaponry and surveilance equipment. It has decent storage for other, heavier weapons, with 3 hardpoints. Triple Ejector Racks will improve that, but they are heavy too. Perhaps if we got ahold of it, provisions could be made for a centerline external fuel tank, and put two more hardpoints to the side of side tank. I dunno, maybe the external tank isnt needed. Sorry, but lil turboprop planes like this one, the OV1, and OV10 get me excited! I dunno why, but it maybe because they are low tech. |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 4:39:31 PM EDT
[#40]
OV-10 Bronco was still used in Desert Storm...
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Posted: 7/6/2007 9:00:20 AM EDT
[#41]
BUMP for more irregualr warfare goodness!
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Posted: 7/6/2007 9:39:05 AM EDT
[#42]
 Pucara and a SF-260 armed trainer. A note on the Pucara, its not in production anymore, and the Argentinians never liked it much. Heard rumors of weak landing gear and similar problems. What if we gave the T-6 Texan II the turbos from a C-130 instead of that little piddly thing they have now  
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Posted: 7/6/2007 10:10:15 AM EDT
[#43]
Paveway, that lil TexanII seems like its a great plane. I did some Google work on the TexanII and supposedly USAF is looking at this plane as a FAC(ahhh, just think, "HIT MY SMOKE"). Damned if it doesnt seem perfect for that role! Its a 2-seater, its quick, the
However, for this lil irregular warrfare thing, I think they are looking for attack capable as a first job. Wouldnt it be best to have a 2 engined turbo prop plane for such a job? Battle damage is a real threat, obviously, so having a second engine would seem to be benficiary. As for the Pacura, could a US company such as Raytheon, Vought(LTV), or even Bell purchase the rights to the airframe, tooling, etc from Argentina(last I checked, their economy still sucks), and build an upgraded version here? |
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Posted: 7/6/2007 10:16:19 AM EDT
[#44]
The Air Force used to have this capability back in the early 60s with the 1st Air Commando Squadron. Based in Vietnam, South and Central America, they had unconventional ground warfare, force multiplier and nation-building capabilities as well as unconventional arial warefare missions that used Helio Couriers, A-1 Skyraiders, On-Mark A26 invaders, Cessna 337s, C-47 goonie birds and spookies, C-46 Commandos, C-119s and a number of other birds.
Curtis LeMay thought these airmen to be on par with SEALs or Green Berets. Missions overlapped in some cases. LeMay moved on and the 'modern' Air Force no longer wanted anything to do with specialized 'ground' troops and piston-engined aircraft that flew low and slow. The PA-48 Enforcer or updated OV-10 would be perfect for the mission. Two engines makes and Bronco especially appealing -- and the high wing mount makes visibility a bonus over the Pucara twin-engined ground attack ship from South America. |
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Posted: 7/6/2007 10:21:56 AM EDT
[#45]
+1 on the OV10 - I've always loved those. Are they in storage?
More from www.combatreform2.com/killerbees3.htm (including a twin-turboprop):
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Posted: 7/6/2007 9:02:05 PM EDT
[#46]
Have you ever seen a T-6 II? 
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Posted: 7/9/2007 5:53:53 PM EDT
[#47]
+1!. We also used them in Korea. P-47Ns would work well, too. A melding of the R-2800 with modern technology could be really interesting. |
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Posted: 7/9/2007 6:13:38 PM EDT
[#48]
Expensive. High maitennance. Lots of "extras" needed. I like the idea of a modern day British Typhoon. 
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Posted: 7/10/2007 10:23:36 AM EDT
[#49]
+1 - It's all about bang for the buck. I'm betting they'll pull something off the shelf or out of storage (OV10s), although I sort of wish they'd hire Burt Rutan to come up with something new (maybe a composite airframe with integral composite armor around the crew compartment and other critical areas) . . . |
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Posted: 7/12/2007 7:27:54 AM EDT
[#50]
Keep this stuff going, its fascinating!
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