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Posted: 10/9/2001 10:53:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2001 10:57:46 AM EST by 308win]
I have kept a Mossberg 590 for home defense for several years, loaded with 2 3/4" 00 buck (9 pellets @ 1325 fps). As mentioned in a separate thread, I am going to begin carrying this in my truck to improve my everyday firepower. Here are my questions. Keep in mind that all would be used in a 20" cylinder bore pump gun. 1. What is your prefered 12 guage home defense load? 2. What is your prefered 12 guage vehicle (i.e., away from home) defense load? 3. What is the effective range of buckshot? 4. What is the effective range of rifled slugs? 5. What about "special purpose" loads (e.g., flechettes)?
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 11:07:08 AM EST
I use Federal Tactical 00 buck (2 3/4"), and Federal Rifled slugs (2 3/4", 1oz). Alternated- Buck-slug-buck-slug. Effective ranges? I know buck from a 20" would be about 35 yards, and slugs are somewhat accurate to 100 yards. I think my choices are adequate. How much more precise do you think you want?
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 11:23:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2001 11:18:50 AM EST by Ian]
Originally Posted By 308win: I have kept a Mossberg 590 for home defense for several years, loaded with 2 3/4" 00 buck (9 pellets @ 1325 fps). As mentioned in a separate thread, I am going to begin carrying this in my truck to improve my everyday firepower. Here are my questions. Keep in mind that all would be used in a 20" cylinder bore pump gun. 1. What is your prefered 12 guage home defense load? 2. What is your prefered 12 guage vehicle (i.e., away from home) defense load? 3. What is the effective range of buckshot? 4. What is the effective range of rifled slugs? 5. What about "special purpose" loads (e.g., flechettes)?
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I wouldn't recommend carying 00 buckshot for anything but home defense unless you plan on being mobbed by a whole bunch of people and don't care who all 9 pellets hit! Slugs would seem the ideal round for a shotgun because you only have to worry about 1 slug, rather than 9 pellets. With that said, the maximum effective range of standard 2 3/4" 12 Gague 1oz rifled slugs is 200 yards. So therefor, I would keep slugs in the gun while traveling, and buckshot in the rifle for home defense. In my experiences with 00 in my 18" 870 Police Magnum with a modified choke, 00 buckshot tends to stay within the center mass of the target at 30 yards. Buckshot seems like a logical choice for home defense since your aim can be a bit more "shaky" and still hit your target. On the other hand, you may have to worry about over-penetration. Slugs would seem like a logical choice for travel cary due to the fact that you don't have to worry about the extra pellets flying around. Good Luck! Ian Edited bekause i dont no how two spel.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 11:25:21 AM EST
Originally Posted By 308win: 1. What is your prefered 12 guage home defense load?
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Federal Tactical 00 or the new Federal tactical 000 are two of the best. Really, it is best to go for the 00 or 000 low recoil load that patterns best. If a standard load patterened sufficiently better, I'd go with that.
Originally Posted By 308win: 2. What is your prefered 12 guage vehicle (i.e., away from home) defense load?
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Tactical 00 or 000 and slugs.
Originally Posted By 308win: 3. What is the effective range of buckshot?
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For a barrel like you mention, probably 20-25 yards. In a Vang comp barrel, the better tactical buchshot loads might be effective at 40 yards or more. But you really need to pattern you gun . . .
Originally Posted By 308win: 4. What is the effective range of rifled slugs?
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As far as you can reliably hit with them! Which, for your stock setup might be only 50 yards. You have to fire some groups to find out.
Originally Posted By 308win: 5. What about "special purpose" loads (e.g., flechettes)?
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flechettes have been tested by the military, and have been found wanting. Most "special purpose" loads are hype. Some of the "non-lethal" ones might be useful in some circumstances, but up close enough they are still lethal, and I wouldn't want to have one in the cylinder when I wanted a slug . . .
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 11:31:28 AM EST
My home shotgun is a plane jane Winchester 1300 Matte with a 7 rd. tube and 18in barrel. It's loaded with 5 Fed. Tactical OO buck. The buttstock carrier has 3 one ounce slugs and two more buckshot loads. My logic is that I can very quickly engage with buckshot, however, if I need slugs due to precision and range, I have time to load the slugs into the tube before cycling the action. This is the same logic for when I carry it in my car. JUSTMY.02
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 11:33:46 AM EST
I use 3" #000 Magnums or 2 3/4" 1 oz. Slugs. As for Flachettes, etc. most are illegal here in the People's Republic of Florida. Just a joke. But, they are illegal anyways in Florida, California, and NYC. I always wondered how we ended up with that bunch. Flachettes are like 20 darts that are usefull against close-range heavily covered/concealed targets such as snipers. They are not dispersed by trees. Bolos aka Macho Gauchos are unique and again illegal in FL. They consist of 2 buckshot attached by a length of Razor wire that shreds the target at the point of impact with about a 7" Trauma area. Double Slugs and Rhodesian Jungle rounds are rounds that are meant to produce a larger trauma area. double slugs at 25 yards spread 6" apart and hit the perp with 2 slugs. Rhodesian rounds consist of buckshot and BBs which procuce a double punch. Dragon's Breaths are illegal in PRFL also. They produce a 400 Ft ? wall of flames that will take care of anything directly in front of the barrel. 12 Gauge Bird Bombs are propelled 200 feet then explode with a pop/bang.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 11:42:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2001 11:41:36 AM EST by PYamasaki]
1. What is your prefered 12 guage home defense load?
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Federal 00 Buck (Tactical) is in the tube. I've got Federal Slugs in a side saddle.
2. What is your prefered 12 guage vehicle (i.e., away from home) defense load?
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Don't typically carry my shotgun for defense but I think I'd be more likely to switch to slugs.
4. What is the effective range of rifled slugs?
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My shooting buddy hits head sized targets out to 100M with his 590 (ghost ring sights) with remarkable consistency. I can't get much past 50M w/ my 500 (front bead only) w/ any kind of reliability. I'm sure there's a published max somewhere but "What can you do with yours?" is probably a more important question.
5. What about "special purpose" loads (e.g., flechettes)?
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If you're in a particularly litigious area, it might do you good to have a "less than lethal" round as your first round. Rounds other than that (flechettes, tacks, etc.)seem kind of silly. Maybe they'd be fun for an outing into the desert where you just want to blast the crap out of stuff but I wouldn't use them for real defense.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 11:48:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2001 11:45:35 AM EST by beanbagger]
i choose #4 shot. with three slugs and two 00 in one of the elastic sleeves for the buttstock.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 11:52:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By beanbagger: i choose #4 shot. with five slugs in one of the elastic sleeves for the buttstock.
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#4 high brass birdshot......try it-you`ll like it.........[shotgun]
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 11:56:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By 308win: I have kept a Mossberg 590 for home defense for several years, loaded with 2 3/4" 00 buck (9 pellets @ 1325 fps). As mentioned in a separate thread, I am going to begin carrying this in my truck to improve my everyday firepower. Here are my questions. Keep in mind that all would be used in a 20" cylinder bore pump gun. 1. What is your prefered 12 guage home defense load? ** 3 2-3/4" #4 followed up by 4 2-3/4" OO buck. 2. What is your prefered 12 guage vehicle (i.e., away from home) defense load? ** 3 OO buck followed by 4 slugs. 3. What is the effective range of buckshot? ** Out of my 21" cylinder barrel, about 30-45 yds. 4. What is the effective range of rifled slugs? ** As far as you can hit something with them, 50-75 yds. with fiber optic front sight. 5. What about "special purpose" loads (e.g., flechettes)? ** Gimmicks, IMHO. No practical purpose in the "normal world."
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Link Posted: 10/9/2001 11:57:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2001 12:04:22 PM EST by LAcop]
OO buckshot is the best defensive load for a shotgun, period. Slugs have there place, but I would not carry them "loaded" in the mag, but on a shell carrier of your choice. #4's ain't worth tits on a boar hog !! (for defensive purposes)
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 12:01:08 PM EST
Federal tactical 00 buck with Federal tactical slugs at the ready
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 12:04:22 PM EST
Load with buckshot, 00 or 000. If you are engaging targets so far away that the natural spread of the pattern is going to result in stray pellets, then you are shooting at a target too far away. A couple slugs in reserve can't hurt, but I wouldn't want to 'splain to a judge how a guy 100 yards away was a threat I couldn't simply flee. Eschew the "special purpose" loads. They are silly. Dragons breath, for example, throws a small cloud of burning magnesium particles instead of shot pattern. Due to photographs taken at slow shutter speed and the persistence of images on the retina, some folks insist they shot a 100' flame. The military has shown, over and over, that shotgun shells loaded with flechettes are less effective than buckshot or slugs. Legally, if you use them on a human target, you are begging for legal problems.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 12:08:55 PM EST
I use to use Federal Tactical 00 buck (2 3/4")untill if found this Eastate Cartridge Co. 12 gauge 00 Buck Military Spec 5 rounds/box - 12ga - OO MILITARY Buckshot - Mil Spec - high velocity 1330ft/sec - star crimp - extra hard shot - 9 pellets - guaranteed 88% pattern in 30" circle at 40 yards with full choke - 5RND/BOX This 00buckshot rock. I still use Federal hydra-shok HP low recoil slug in my 590A1
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 12:10:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By LAcop: OO buckshot is the best defensive load for a shotgun, period. Slugs have there place, but I would not carry them "loaded" in the mag, but on a shell carrier of your choice. #4's ain't worth tits on a bore hog !! (for defensive purposes)
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You get hit with #4 high brass within 100 ft., you`re goin` down buddy!.........[stick]
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 12:15:23 PM EST
Well , it looks like 00 buck has the most followers, special purpose rounds are a bad idea and a small number of shooters like to have slugs, either in the magazine in various orders, or available to load if "required". Federal Tactical 00 buck also seems to have a loyal following. Why is that?
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 12:18:44 PM EST
You guys using the OO+ have to worry about penetration (of shot that is). You need to shoot some thru a wall in your typical room and see what kind of damage the adjacent room can get. You can kill someone in next room with a stray. I prefer to use #6 indoors and out. Inside, this load is usually stopped by sheetrock and furniture. Outside, it looses energy real fast. A bystander outside getting hit with a few stray pellets of #6 shot is not going to complain too much. Hit someone with some stray OO and they might shoot back. Hit someone in the face with a full blast of #6 and it'll look like the guy is carrying a pizza. I also carry slugs and OO for special use and try to get them in different colors so it's easy to grab the right one. Nothing gets you thru a locked door faster than a slug point blank on the jamb side of the lock. Just make sure you have eye protection and there are no friendlies on the other side.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 12:49:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2001 12:44:38 PM EST by gus]
Originally Posted By 308win: Well , it looks like 00 buck has the most followers, special purpose rounds are a bad idea and a small number of shooters like to have slugs, either in the magazine in various orders, or available to load if "required". Federal Tactical 00 buck also seems to have a loyal following. Why is that?
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I'm going to echo in on 00 Tactical buck with slugs at the ready. The reason I use the tactical rounds are they have lower recoil than standard magnums. Not that I'm recoil shy, just that my little 870 HD is kinda light in weight and I'd likely be wearing only a t-shirt if that when shooting it in a home defense situation. When I first got the HD, I took it to the range to pattern it, but I took 3" 00 buck and 3" slug rounds. It kicked so hard that I didn't bother to finish what I was doing. My buddy that was with me started acting like I was a wimp, so I loaded up a tube of the 3" mags for him to "enjoy". He didn't laugh too much after that. My 870 Wingmaster has a much better recoil pad and I'm usually wearing at least a jacket when shooting it, so the recoil isn't nearly as abusive with the 3" mag rounds.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 12:54:38 PM EST
Staggered Federal 00 Buck and Winchester1600fps 1oz HP Slug in a REM870P.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 1:25:20 PM EST
plane jane1300...gun loaded with oo buck......sidesaddle 1oz slugs...
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 1:35:24 PM EST
I agree that Federal 00 Tactical is very good, but I have switched to Estate SWAT10PK00, which is also a "low recoil" 00. At about $3.30 for box of 10 it is considerably cheaper, and in my Vang Comp 590 it patterns better. I buy them at www.cheaperthan dirt , item #50374, but they are currently out of stock.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 1:40:49 PM EST
12 guage? 12 Gague? I think I will stick with my trusty 12 GAUGE!
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 1:59:34 PM EST
IWBA recommends Number 1 Buck (16 pellets @ .30" diameter) [url]http://www.iwba.com[/url] i'll leave it to y'all to do the homework on that one. scott out
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 2:01:00 PM EST
marlin camp 9 with 30rd clips loaded with +p+ hydroshock 124gr. less mess.gets the job done and in court the gun don't look like the (evel) socalled assalt rifle.that is if it comes to that. But if the sh*t hit's the M16 always has a few loaded clips just in case. If you can get it out of the safe fast.as for the pump gun mosberg 500 bullpup with 00 buck
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 2:19:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2001 2:18:11 PM EST by I_Luv_Carrots]
Originally Posted By class3: marlin camp 9 with 30rd clips loaded with +p+ hydroshock 124gr. less mess.gets the job done and in court the gun don't look like the (evel) socalled assalt rifle.that is if it comes to that. But if the sh*t hit's the M16 always has a few loaded clips just in case. If you can get it out of the safe fast.as for the pump gun mosberg 500 bullpup with 00 buck
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A couplea things... A gun rag a while back compared the Ruger Carbines to the Camp series- One of the main downfalls to the Camp series was it's lack of a +P rating. Since it isn't even rated for regular old run of the mill +P, I seriously question if it can take the fiesty +P+- Also, you said
less mess.gets the job done and in court the gun don't look like the (evel) socalled assalt rifle.
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Using "Law Enforcement Only" marked +P+ ammo will win you no more favors than using an AR15. The defense attorneys will have a field day with that. I use Ranger +P+ in mine as well. But I also don't hesitate to use an AR either.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 2:21:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By 308win: I have kept a Mossberg 590 for home defense for several years, loaded with 2 3/4" 00 buck (9 pellets @ 1325 fps). As mentioned in a separate thread, I am going to begin carrying this in my truck to improve my everyday firepower. Here are my questions. Keep in mind that all would be used in a 20" cylinder bore pump gun. 1. What is your prefered 12 guage home defense load? 2. What is your prefered 12 guage vehicle (i.e., away from home) defense load? 3. What is the effective range of buckshot? 4. What is the effective range of rifled slugs? 5. What about "special purpose" loads (e.g., flechettes)?
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I would stick with your 00 buck.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 2:44:48 PM EST
Here is my recommendation: Drop the shotgun. It is long, heavy (relatively), and requires 2 hands to operate. Inside a house you'll be opening doors, pushing loved ones into safe areas and out of the way, and operating a flashlight. You can't do all these things and be ready to use a shotgun. Get yourself a good .45 Auto handgun and load it with STANDARD pressure 230 gr. hollowpoints. It will have superb stopping power at close range and only requires the use of 1 hand, leaving the free hand to work a flashlight, open doors, move people, etc. Additionally, the 230 gr. hollowpoint will penetrate drywall, but 2 layers of drywall (first the bullet penetrates one wall then the second wall in the other room) will slow the bullet down enough that it will not penetrate corugated cardboard. I've tested it, believe me. Handguns make a better mobile (truck) defensive weapon for a couple of reasons: 1. You can carry a pistol far more readily than a shotgun. 2. A pistol can be operated with one hand, leaving you the ability to open doors, etc. 3. From a legal standpoint retreating to one's vehicle for a weapon leaves an avenue of escape (driving away), any prosecutor will question you going to your vehicle to retrieve a firearm. "Do what you will, just don't get caught running to get a gun when you can just run."
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 2:46:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By 308win: Federal Tactical 00 buck also seems to have a loyal following. Why is that?
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Federal tactical tends to pattern real well. It seems that Federal tactical 000 patterns [i]very[/i] well in Vang comp barrels. You need the penetration of 00 or 000 if you are going to use buckshot. And you want it to pattern well. Lower powered ("low recoil" or "tactical") loads tend to pattern better, and high quality loads (buffered, plated shot, etc.) also tend to patten better. So high-end low recoil 00 or 000 loads are the way to go. Federal is one of the best. Winchester has gotten mixed reviews. Reviews of the older Estate tactical loads were bad, but I've heard that they are better now. Bottom line, [b]get a 00 or 000 load that patterns well in your gun[/b]. All else being equal, get something that is low recoil. Things are not all equal, however, but low recoil rounds tend to pattern better and that is more important than raw power.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 4:38:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/11/2001 5:10:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2001 5:13:17 AM EST by 308win]
rg00red, I understand your point. I do regularly carry a 1911 in .45ACP. It is my handgun of choice. I don't want this to turn into a pistol versus shotgun debate. However, I think that many others will agree that there are situations where a bit more firepower is warranted. In a barricade situation for example, I want a shotgun. A handgun is a compromise, It is relatively small and light for ease in carrying, but you sacrifice the available footpounds and ergonomics of a long gun. Once you are committed to the fight, you need all the knockdown power that you can get. At that point, concealability and ease of carry matter none. Ask most LEO's, you will find that they would prefer their shotgun in many tactical situations.
Link Posted: 10/11/2001 5:47:30 AM EST
There used to be a member here with "Jack" in the title of his name, I cant remember him now... but he posted a link about a year ago IIRC that stated Single 0 Reduced recoil buckshot gave the greatest wounding potential. When I bought a Benelli Nova, my first thought was bigger is better and bought 3 1/2" Magnum 00 Buck for home defense... I wanted to be able to shoot an intruder through my bedroom door and have the door fall down upon them! Well our member "Jack" let us to a webpage that contradicted my thinking... when you start getting heavy loads like the above, they start acting like bullets. The 12ga reduced recoil single buck apparently shreds tearing tissue appart making a devistating single large hole that is difficult to close and stop bleeeding. Anyway, I like to think I have a good memory and this is what I remember from a year ago. M.
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