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Posted: 10/8/2001 11:25:31 AM EDT
[#1]
Super brilliant personal attacks.
Why bother with the facts of the argument when there are so many good personal attacks to be used? Please raise the level of your debate rather than your voice. |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 12:05:13 PM EDT
[#2]
I love my FORD 4X4's. Full size Bronco XLT(94) and F-350 crew cab XLT (97). Are they suv's? I don't know. They are mostly u's, with some s's throwed in occasionally. Fuel mileage? Ha! I laugh in the face of fuel mileage.[}:D]
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Posted: 10/8/2001 1:20:05 PM EDT
[#3]
I don't care what people drive. I personally have a Jeep Cherokee. It only comfortably holds four, but can hold five. It has room in the back for dogs or gear. It has a roof rack. Yes, it's a 4x4. I go four-wheeling occasionally.
It snows where I live, and I've seen passenger cars with front-wheel and rear-wheel drive try to come up our road. And not succeed. Last year, though, I got my JEEP STUCK IN THE SNOW. Believe it or not as you will. I dug my Jeep out of the snowbank I had slid into when I didn't make it up the driveway. And still couldn't, after letting some air out of the tires, get out of my spot. A Chevy Tahoe pulled me out. |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 2:18:51 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Quoted: If I were so inclined to get one, I would probably go for the newer Japanese or German models. Not because they are nicer inside, but because they are truly new designs developed from the ground up. They offer superior handling and a hell of a lot less body roll than the Ford/GM variants in which a pretty shell is just bolted on to an F150 truck frame, for instance. Hey Matt, The one thing I was really impressed with was this things handling. It is really stable, has a great ride and very little lean in the turns. We test drove an Isuzu Trooper and the darn thing felt like it was going to tip over at every turn. The German ones aren't quite as large for the two doggies and the only Japanese one that compares is the Sequoia, which is 'spensive. Our next door neighbor just bought one and I must say it is very nice, but about ten grand more than the Expedition. BTW, when are we going to buy our Eclipses? [;)] Can I buy it on consignment? I ain't got no stinkin' job yet! he he :) |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 2:27:34 PM EDT
[#5]
BTW, does anyone know the law concerning LEO search of an SUV? I know they can't easily search the trunk of a car, but an SUV has no trunk.
The reason I ask is because we have a lot more to worry about in the PRK concerning the transportation of SUR's. |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 3:35:40 PM EDT
[#6]
We have a cherokee My wife will not drive anything that sits lower, and a k2500 turbo diesl. The chrokee gets about 22mpg and the pickup gets 17 mpg with 4.10 gears. I used to cut people out of cars for a living and wont drive a car with all of the suv's and trucks out there these days.
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Posted: 10/8/2001 4:04:33 PM EDT
[#7]
hey, I never told [u]anyone[/u] what they need or don't need. Certainly none of my comrades here. Sure, we have a lot of yuppies that feel they NEED a suburban, with which I disagree. If YOU have a legitimate need for something like that, great! Fine! Drive on.
I just hate the FAD part of it... or the people that get it because they want the BIGGEST vehicle on the road. Slugbait got it right... I wouldn't feel very safe in any old car, what with all these SUVs running around. Me? I drive a Toyota pickup. Most of the time, I don't NEED a pickup, but it comes in handy when I do. It's small, gets good gas mileage and is RELIABLE. Gets me to and from work without too much fandango. I'm [u]not[/u] some rabid tree hugging stumphumper, so I'm not too tight about the fuel thing. Fuel is an expense, and I can't afford to drive a vehicle that sucks a gallon every 13 miles. I DO have some concern about the air. SUVs have been under much more relaxed emissions standards than cars, tho I think it's changing. Think about it, the air we pollute today is the air our children and grandchildren will be breathing. Plus fuel is a finite resource. We might not see the end of it in our lifetimes, but we might, and prices are likely to go up. I'm actually thinking about getting a hybrid in a year or two... I could go a month on 10 gallons of gas with the Honda Insight.... Everyone makes their own choices. If you feel you have need for an SUV, great, fine, go for it. I might disagree with you, but I'm not your boss, your wife, your brother or your father, so my opinion isn't likely to carry much weight with you. Spend your $$ where you see fit. I reserve the right not to like it, but will not ever tell anyone what they need or want. However, remember that cars are NOT like guns. We have no absolute freedom as to what we can drive (on public roads). If SUVs were outlawed, or if owners needed some permit to own one, I wouldn't cry at all! |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 4:32:12 PM EDT
[#8]
I used to drive a 2wd toyota PU before I got my 4x4 jeep cherokee. After getting stuck 5 times in one day in the PU (on a prospecting trip in Baja California), I knew I had to get a 4x4.
The small PU carred more junk than the jeep, but less people. The jeep gets better gas milage. As far as the environment goes, the air is cleaner than it was 30 years ago. Most auto emissions are of short term duration, anyway. The move to truck based vehicles was in part a reaction to federal standards, which make the larger vehicles more attractive. As far as gas comsumption goes, I don't care how much you use as long as you are willing to pay for it. My only point on this is that a gallon of gas cost way more than it should, because of the government--both federal and state. It is interesting that people really like to pile on "SUVs", when PUs, vans, and minivans are often just as bad or worse. SUVs are targeted because the "roll over easily", yet most real-life roll overs are proceeded by a spin out. And PUs, with their light rear ends are more likely to spin out than other vehicles (and they are about as high as SUVs, although they have a slight advantage in the longer wheelbase). Minivans are not exactly economy cars, either. Most PUs you see driving around contain exactly [b]nothing[/b] in their bed, yet somehow they are exempt. [b]My take on all of this is that the crusade against SUVs is an attempt to make sure no one is having any fun.[/b] Just another attempt by purtanical folk to dictate the actions of the rest of us. |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 4:42:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Everyone who drives a SUV is an utter moron. They are wasting money, gas, and the environment all at the same time. If I had my way, I'd take them all SUV owners out and shoot them in the head. They are all money grabbing bastards who do nothing better than to hog the road, kill innocent drivers in small cars, and destroy the ozone layer.
AR15Fencer is exactly right. Since nobody NEEDS a SUV, then nobody should EVEr be allowed to own one. In fact, I think I'm going to start a lawsuit that will force car makers to stop producing all SUVs. Oh, by the way. I love driving my 4x4 Durango! [;D] |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 4:45:28 PM EDT
[#10]
I NEED another ar!!!!!!.......[;D]
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Posted: 10/8/2001 4:51:20 PM EDT
[#11]
Sure, there are some people who have legitimate needs for a vehicle that large, but the majority of us don't need more than a 4 door sedan! A few people need AR15s and 30 round mags, but the majority of us don't need more than a five shot bolt action. Give it a rest. I have a Tahoe because it will haul all my gear to the range and will get me to my favorite tree stand without getting stuck. I have no idea what the MPG is. I add $30-$35 in fuel about every ten days. I bought the wife a GTP because all she needs is a mid-size car. Because of all the whining about SUVs, I'm considering trading the GTP for another Tahoe. If I didn't need a 4X4 I might still own one...JUST BECAUSE I WANT ONE!!! Eddie |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 4:54:49 PM EDT
[#12]
And on the 8th day God created Land Rover and saw that it was good. It was distributed evenly and wisely among the serious off roaders and those who worshipped the best of the 4x4 line.
Then Ford saw what he had created, bought it, and sold it to socker moms. |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 4:55:35 PM EDT
[#13]
If you want an SUV fine, but goddamnit, learn how to drive the thing.
I hate soccer moms who have a f*cking Excursion and think they are in a sports car cutting in and out of traffic. These type of women make me sick. They are bad enough drivers as it is, then you hand them the biggest car on the road to throw around. I got hit by some chick in a 4Runner while I was in my 300ZX. $3200 damage to my car, her front headlight was broken and bumper was scratched. Even though they sit up higher, it doesnt make you see the road better. It gives you a larger blind spots and are harder to manuver. But people dont realize that. Anyways, just venting because they are a HUGE fad around my parts. |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 5:17:36 PM EDT
[#14]
Sexual Chocolate has it right... that's the way I feel, but when I brought the word 'need' into it, I ruffled feathers!
What I hate about them: The FAD factor (the Lexus and BMW and high end manf SUVs are a joke!) A$$holes that drive them like they're tanks Soccor moms who drive them like sports cars Yuppies that get a nice paying job right out of college who go out and buy the biggest SUV they can afford. My disdain for those factors of SUVs are my opinions. Attack me if you like, but unless you meet the above pet peaves, I got nothin against ya. (I might still not like your ride, but no hard feelins...) |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 5:31:17 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: I reserve the right not to like it, but will not ever tell anyone what they need or want. However, remember that cars are NOT like guns. We have no absolute freedom as to what we can drive (on public roads). If SUVs were outlawed, or if owners needed some permit to own one, I wouldn't cry at all! [b] Amendment [IX.] The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. Amendment [X.] The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. Sound familiar? Just because they're not mentioned in the BOR doesn't mean congress can act on it. In fact, it means congress shouldn't be able to do anything about it, because it's not an authorized power given to them.[/b] I'm sooo glad you don't mind other peoples rights being infringed on, as long as it doesn't affect you. Pathetic. |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 5:48:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: Yuppies that get a nice paying job right out of college who go out and buy the biggest SUV they can afford. Whatif it's a Toyota RAV4 or a Honda CR-V? If that's the biggest they can afford, are they yuppies? Or are they people who just want the most bang for their buck? |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 5:53:41 PM EDT
[#17]
Schnacke,
When the hell did I mention infringing anyone's RIGHTS? Driving on PUBLIC roads can be and IS regulated by the PUBLIC/GOVERNMENT. It's a PRIVELEGE, not a right. A special license is required (in most states) to drive a bus or a limo... what if it spreads to SUVs? We all know the differences between guns and cars, right?? My previous posts were my expression of my opinions. Never did I advocate infringing on anyone's legitimate rights. And the 1st protects my right to DISLIKE any damn thing I want for any damn reason. And it protects my right to speak about it. Don't stoop low enough to make the assumption that I'm advocating restrictions on the People's rights. Disagree with me? Fine, but don't attack me. |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 5:59:07 PM EDT
[#18]
I'm not sure I understand the logic of hating vehicles that someone else owns. We have two SUVs, a 2 door hatch back, and a motorcycle. They are all just machines that do a job. If the job is filtering through 8 miles of stop and go traffic to get to work then the bike is the thing and all other vehicles suck. Trip to the coast, take the hatchback. Trip to the mountains, take an SUV. Need to pick up 1000# of dry cement at the hardware store, take the beater SUV but drive it slow, 1000# is a lot of weight.
As far as the comment about SUVs being pointless if you don't take them off road, I beg to differ. Where I live, speed bumps are everywhere. They're not just for parking lots anymore. I can barely drive anywhere in town with out encountering these things. Speedbumps are a lot less annoying in an SUV compared to a car. If you want to blame the vehicles for dangerous drivers then you had better put Toyota Camry's on your list. And let's not forget Champagne colored Lexi (Lexuses?). Both of which seem to be favored by the grossly incompetent. Vans of all types would have to be on the list as well since the drivers of these vehicles tend to believe that slower traffic keep right has a specific exception for vans. The van rule is drive in the left lane at what ever speed makes you happy until just before your exit, then trundle diagonally across the freeway to the ramp. We should hate all small Japanese cars too since lots of assholes put really loud mufflers, and even louder stereos, on them in a futile attempt to make their penises larger. It's no use blaming the vehicle for the faults of the driver. |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 6:02:17 PM EDT
[#19]
I don't want to stir anything up but, "bang for the buck"?
How many of the people in southern California who own an excursion, expedition, 4runner, rav4 jeep, EVER take them off road? How many of these people have more than 3 people to cart around in their family? How many of these people go to Home Depot 4 times a week to buy bulk lumber and brick? They are not used for their intended purpose and THAT IS FINE. But don’t get behind the wheel of an oversized vehicle if you are not able to handle it, or are fully aware of its limitations and abilities. But personally I feel that why would you buy something that you are not taking advantage of its full capabilities? |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 6:07:09 PM EDT
[#20]
FWIW, Ford has contributed large sums of cash to anti-gun organizations, such as HCI, this was reported in American Rifleman magazine several years ago. I drove Fords exclusively for years, now I drive Honda / Toyota. I miss a good F-150, but I would NEVER buy a new one off the lot because of Ford's policies. Besides they screwed me, my 1990 Bronco's paint started coming off in 5-6 inch patches and they would not do anything about it,(2 1/2 years old) I wrote letters, took pictures, and mailed to corporate, etc. etc. and they would not do CRAP about it.
As far as the SUV thing goes, I bought one 10 years ago before it was all the raging fad as of today. Makes me want to puke all the succer Moms, trying to outdo each other. If thats what tickles your fancy then fine, but it IS just a fad and nothing more. I think it is so stupid how these things are so overpriced and people are actually paying $500 - $600 a month just to LEASE one. All the enviro whackos ae just jealous because they cant afford one, they really piss me off tring to tell everybody else what to drive. Kind of like the tobacco thing, it made me want to go buy a carton of Camels and start puffing away. |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 6:08:42 PM EDT
[#21]
Let me spell this out, for people who have difficulty understanding me:
If you have legitimate need for a huge vehicle, be it an SUV or a diesel dually or an 18 wheel semi, fine, I have NO PROBLEM with you owning it or driving it. You need it, and works for you. Drive it safely. If you get such a vehicle simply because you want to drive the biggest, nastiest truck on the road, or because they're 'cool,' I don't like that. If your state's DMV or DPS or whatever regulatory department in the future required some special license to drive one, I will shed not a tear. If I ever need such a vehicle, I could still get one, and so could you. My attitude about cars and guns are very different. Don't confuse the two. Don't take my opinions personally.... and we'll all be friends! |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 6:12:32 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Schnacke, When the hell did I mention infringing anyone's RIGHTS? When you said this: If SUVs were outlawed, or if owners needed some permit to own one, I wouldn't cry at all! Gee, suv's are outlawed, and people who want/need them can't buy them. Sounds like infringing on rights to me! Don't stoop low enough to make the assumption that I'm advocating restrictions on the People's rights. Disagree with me? Fine, but don't attack me. I'm not making assumptions. I'm quoting you. Supporting the denial of freedom is just as bad as being the person who writes the law. And I wasn't attacking you. I was attacking your opinion. Like you said, you have a right to your opinion, and a right to express that opinion (but not really, because this is a private board). I also have the right to express an opinion. And my opinion is that expressing the willingness to have other people's freedoms taken away because it doesn't affect you is pathetic. See the difference????? |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 6:16:22 PM EDT
[#23]
Schnacke
Sure, but did I say "I want the right/privelege to own an SUV infringed"? NOPE. Didn't think so Maybe I SHOULD have said it like this: "If driving SUVs on public roadways was regulated, or a special license were required, I wouldn't shed a tear." I was in err using the B word I do not discount the fact that there are people that have legitimate need for such vehicles. But I'd be willing to bet there are many that do not, that could get by with something smaller. |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 6:20:05 PM EDT
[#24]
I would not even consider buying a car, but I can't wait for the Fad to stop. I was hoping with higher gas prices and the new batch of cute two-seaters, SUV prices might go down. Supposedly GM makes a 10,000 profit on every SUV.
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Posted: 10/8/2001 6:22:19 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Let me spell this out, for people who have difficulty understanding me: If you have legitimate need for a huge vehicle, be it an SUV or a diesel dually or an 18 wheel semi, fine, I have NO PROBLEM with you owning it or driving it. You need it, and works for you. Drive it safely. If you get such a vehicle simply because you want to drive the biggest, nastiest truck on the road, or because they're 'cool,' I don't like that. Ok, if I can justify to you, or some government drone, that I need a vehicle, that's kosher. But I want one, just because I live in a free country and should be able to buy whatever vehicle I see fit, I should feel bad because I'm buying more vehicle than you think I need? If your state's DMV or DPS or whatever regulatory department in the future required some special license to drive one, I will shed not a tear. If I ever need such a vehicle, I could still get one, and so could you. Oh good, now I just can't buy whatever vehicle I want, I need to jump through hoops to appease people like you? I need to spend my time, my money, my energy on obtaining some piece of paper? So you feel safer? Anything else you want me to do, like sell my 36" tv because it uses more electricity than a 21" tv??? My attitude about cars and guns are very different. Don't confuse the two. Don't take my opinions personally.... and we'll all be friends! Maybe if you realized that freedom is freedom, whether it applies to guns, cars, toilets or whatever, then we can be friends. But as long as you sound like you came over from democraticunderground.com, I'm going to disagree with statements I feel are boneheaded. And I'm going to call them boneheaded if that's how I feel. But don't take my opinion personally. |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 6:27:16 PM EDT
[#26]
Schnake,
I'm not advocating or calling for restrictions, am I? I'm expressing my opinion of dislike for such vehicles when in the hands of people who don't really need them. Think I'm some left wing liberal nut? Fine, but you're wrong. You CAN own any vehicle you want, and I won't argue that. But let me put it this way, if I buy Bigfoot, am I allowed to drive it on public roads? If I get an 18 wheeler (saw one for sale for $10,000... I could afford that), should I be able to drive it anywhere without restrictions? Freedom is freedom, sure, but there are boundaries and prices to freedom, or else I COULD drive bigfoot on public roads. Couldn't I? Also, I never mentioned ANY OTHER CONSUMER PRODUCT. What you have in your house is your business. But when you're on OUR roads, interacting with other free people, you can be and are regulated on what you can legally drive. I'm not some government goon or liberal in any sense of the word. I SIMPLY DISLIKE IT WHEN PEOPLE BUY AND DRIVE THE BIGGEST FRICKIN TRUCK THEY CAN GET WHEN THEY DON'T NEED IT. That's it, that's all. In every other respect, I'm probably much like everyone else here. |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 6:32:30 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: As far as using lots of gas, well we should let the market determine the price of gas and let people decdie for themselves if they want to spend more or less money buying gas. It is a free market issue, and the socialists who moralize over how others spend their money can go to hell. |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 6:36:00 PM EDT
[#28]
No, you're not calling for restritictions. You're taking the easy way out by saying "I woudn't shed a tear' or "I wouldn't cry at all".
Sort of like saying you advocate but still leaving wiggle room when confronted. Your bigfoot arguement doesn't stick. Does bigfoot fit in one lane? Does it fit under bridges? Is it street legal? If it is, you can drive it. There are pickups that are bigger than suv's. Pickups that have 4 rear tires. Should those be regulated? Would you not cry if those were outlawed as well? Or is it just the people driving the SUV's you don't like??? |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 6:45:29 PM EDT
[#29]
Schnacke,
You're quite right about Bigfoot. It is not street legal. SUVs are. I do not dislike the people that drive them. I simply DISAGREE with the decision of people who DO drive them, but just don't have a real need for such a vehicle. This goes for any large vehicle. That's my opinion. I don't dislike people because of what they own, or what they drive. |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 6:55:58 PM EDT
[#30]
I drive a GMC Jimmy.....because I like it. It's an old one, but when I can afford to get a new one, I'll buy another SUV. Probably a smaller one like I have now, because I don't need a big one, and the smaller ones are easier to drive. The one I have now is 2wd, but when I get a new one, it will be 4wd....because I'll use it. I spend a lot of time in the mountains, and 4wd is pretty necessary where I like to go. I'm a logical kind of person. If I don't need it, I won't buy it. That's just the kind of gal I am.
On the other hand, the office manager where I work just bought a 2002 Trailblazer, 4wd with ALL the options. It's a status thing for her. She got the OnStar system so she can listen to her horoscope every day on the way to work. She never leaves the pavement, and washes it every day. Does she need it? She thinks she does. Do I care? Nope...it's her dime. [;)] |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 3:00:39 AM EDT
[#31]
If you get such a vehicle simply because you want to drive the biggest, nastiest truck on the road, or because they're 'cool,' I don't like that. That would fall under the, "Your problem" department. Seek counseling. [i]If you own an AR15 because you have a legitimate need for one, I have no problem with that, however...[/i] How many of you anti-SUVers give hunters a hard time because they don't see a need for anything other than traditional hunting firearms? And please don't start the tripe about "no constitutionally protected right to own an SUV." No one has a constitutionally protected right to own any vehicle. Some of you sound like the Sarah Brady of VCI (Vehicle Control Inc). Get off the "Scoccer Mom" rant. I drive a fair amount every day. I see piss-poor drivers of both (all?) genders driving every type of vehicle acting as if they were the only person on the road. I'll ever bet some of them own AR-15s. Eddie |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 3:20:33 AM EDT
[#32]
LS1Eddie it is true, there are shitty drivers all over the place. The problem is when a 2,500# car get nailed by a 7,200+# SUV. Simple physics.
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Posted: 10/9/2001 7:32:10 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: LS1Eddie it is true, there are shitty drivers all over the place. The problem is when a 2,500# car get nailed by a 7,200+# SUV. Simple physics. In that case, the driver of the SUV was smart enough to buy a bigger, safer vehicle. Maybe the driver of the 2500# car should follow suit. It's survival of the fittest out there... |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 7:39:54 AM EDT
[#34]
Bruhaha,
That's the attitude I don't like much. 'I have a tank, and I can survive anything, but if I run into someone and kill them because they're in a smaller car, they should have gotten something bigger.' A lot of the people that drive small cars can't afford anything bigger. Sounds like putting down the poor people because you're better and can afford better. Doesn't it? Very compassionate and sympathetic. Sometimes on the road, my life is in your hands, and sometimes yours is in my hands. Feel safe with me driving something that could simply KILL you if I were to collide with you? |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 7:59:57 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Bruhaha, That's the attitude I don't like much. 'I have a tank, and I can survive anything, but if I run into someone and kill them because they're in a smaller car, they should have gotten something bigger.' A lot of the people that drive small cars can't afford anything bigger. Sounds like putting down the poor people because you're better and can afford better. Doesn't it? Very compassionate and sympathetic. Sometimes on the road, my life is in your hands, and sometimes yours is in my hands. Feel safe with me driving something that could simply KILL you if I were to collide with you? I never said you had to like my thoughts. Frankly, I'm glad you don't. That tells me that I'm doing something right. I don't believe in that "let's all be equal and drive the same type of car" bullshit. To me, that's called socialism. Have you thought about what would happen if you, in you Kia ran into a bicyclist? Who do you think would be hurt? Does that mean that we should all ride bikes instead of cars? So fewer people will be fatally injured? Ok, how about you're in your Kia, and some guy in a Bentley, which is a CAR, slams into you. Now do you want to take all LARGE cars off the road? Sure you do, because you're a socialist. |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 8:10:20 AM EDT
[#36]
Brouhaha,
It's not the FACT that a larger vehicle will cause more damage to a smaller vehicle that I have a problem with. It's not the availability or choice of vehicles that people drive that I have a problem with.... It's the attitude of some (not all) SUV owners that feel they have a tank, and if they run into anyone else, even if they kill a carload of elementary students, that they're ok, and their victims should have 'gotten a bigger vehicle' that really irks me. It's the ATTITUDE that SOME have about it. That attitude can affect the way SOME drive. Think about being in traffic as being on a playing feild. There are, and need to be, rules and regulations, so it's fair and safe to everyone. Socialist? If you say so. Then every sport you ever watch on TV is an example of socialism.... I dislike the attitude. I dislike people that have that attitude. However, I am not nor will I ever try to abridge anyone's freedom to drive whatever they want. I'm just disliking some people's attitude. You're disliking mine. Neither of us are socialists, or jerks or a$$holes. We're just practicing our First Amendment rights. |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 8:22:03 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Then every sport you ever watch on TV is an example of socialism.... That's fine, since they don't interfere with the daily lives of people. It's fairly simple, if you don't like the "socialist" rules, then don't play the game. Driving is not the same as a game. It's not exactly impossible for carmakers to manufacture safer small cars. Look at F1 cars for example...they slam into a wall doing 200 and the driver walks away. Instead of telling SUV owners what the rules "should be," why don't you ask car makers to build safer small cars. |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 8:32:07 AM EDT
[#38]
You're right, Brouhaha. But F1 cars have a seat and an engine... that's it. The driver wears special protective gear and straps his butt in with a harness.
The attitude that anyone should have to get on the auto industry to make safer cars that will stand up to SUVs colliding with them, is almost the same attitude as believing that everyone else should get one, so they'll have better survival chances. There are probably lots of cars out there that will stand up quite well in a collision with an SUV that outweighs it by several tons. Can the low income minority guy that can't afford anything more than a Metro get one of those cars? Like I said. It's not anyone's freedom or choice I'm disagreeing with. I loathe the attitudes that some people have. The people that attack me for my views on this issue, probably similar views towards people's attitudes about some OTHER things. Like I mentioned, none of us are jerks or a$$holes or socialists, or liberals or any of those bad things. |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 8:36:10 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: Can the low income minority guy that can't afford anything more than a Metro get one of those cars? What about the low income white guy? Why characterize low income people as minorities? It seems you have other problems with your own thoughts that needs to be cleared up first. |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 8:45:29 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: It's not exactly impossible for carmakers to manufacture safer small cars. Look at F1 cars for example...they slam into a wall doing 200 and the driver walks away. Instead of telling SUV owners what the rules "should be," why don't you ask car makers to build safer small cars. Reminds me of a russian fable I once read. There were two russian farmers, Boris and Ivan. They had identical farms. Sames size land, same house, same number of chickens, same number of cows. There was only one difference. Boris had a bull. For this, Ivan hated him. It was unfair that Boris had a bull that could be used to breed more cattle. While working in the field one day, Ivan comes across a magic lamp. He rubs the lamp and out comes a genie. The genie tells Ivan that for freeing him, he will grant him one wish. Anything he wants. Ivan couldn't believe his ears. "I really can have anything I wish for? Anything at all?" "Yes" said the genie "Anything at all". "I want you to kill Boris's Bull" said Ivan. --- It's the problem with socialism eveywhere. Instead of improving the worst performers, they wish to cut down the best performers. |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 8:54:03 AM EDT
[#41]
Brouhaha
If it would make you feel better, I'll say the low income WHITE guy. Again, if it makes you feel better.... (of course, I said 'low income minority', so now I'm not only a socialist, I'm a bigot, right?) |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 9:25:07 AM EDT
[#42]
I think this says a lot :
(soure - Autopacific - does marketing and consulting for the auto industry) Ford Expedition- "How does this buyer drive? Expedition owners tend to enjoy long driving trips and often eat or drink while driving. Some owners may drive a little more aggressively than the average driver, perhaps reflecting a feeling of invincibility when driving this large vehicle." Chevy Suburban- "How does this buyer drive? The Suburban owner is less passionate than the average owner when it comes to their views on driving. They will readily admit their lack of vehicle knowledge and rarely shop for a new vehicle when they’re not in the market for one." - These trucks require greater than average skill and care to be driven safely, and marketing is pointing out that these drivers are among the most careless and unknowledgeable. |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 9:48:52 AM EDT
[#43]
Wow... what a debate this has sparked.
Well, I guess I'm one of the "bad guys." I drive my 7200lb 4x4 Suburban all over the place. I drive it on the highways, side streets, and even off-road. 85% of the time, I'm by myself. I take it to the convenience store that's a mile down the road to buy beer. I take it to the post office that's 1.5 miles away to check my P.O. box. And like I said, 85% of the time I'm alone. Hell, I got a 93 Jeep Cherokee sitting out there in the driveway. I don't drive it around much. The Suburban is much nicer to drive, and a much nicer, smoother ride. Sure, I could use the Jeep more often. I take the Suburban because I can. I guess it sucks that you don't like the idea that I drive one of the "THE BIGGEST FRICKIN TRUCK THEY (I) CAN GET WHEN THEY (I) DON'T NEED IT." Tough titties. -Gloftoe |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 10:30:33 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: While I grant that people should be able to drive what they want, I take exception to this statement, I've heard it before. The problem is that those that drive gas guzzlers set the price for people who drive more economical vehicles and are using up the finite quantity of oil much faster. By this argument, people who commute longer distances are even more guilty than those who live in the 'burbs' and drive 'gas guzzlers'. But this is all economic horseshit. The price of gas is low because it is plentiful. While in theory it is finite, we now have greater known oil reserves, in terms of "years of future usage", than we did back in the 20s. As the price of gas goes up, more resources will be put into finding more oil. If oil supplies do become short, prices will sharply rise. This will lead consumers to change their habits. But that hasn't happened yet. The best way to allocate resources is via the free market. Allow prices to rise and fall according to market forces. The price of gas is not determined by SUVs alone. In fact, SUVs are probably a minor factor. What, 60 cents on every gallon of gas is directly due to the government? It ain't SUVs that cause you to pay "high" prices for gas. Quoted:Drive what you want, but don't use that argument. Everyone has to pay the price of gas set by users of less thrifty vehicles and everyone is affected by said price. Cool it with calling those that disagree with you 'socialists'. People drive "gas-guzzlers" because the price of gas is low. If the price of gas goes up, people will start buying economy cars, and make use of other resources. In free markets, you allow individuals to use resources as they see fit. You allow prices to rise and fall according to supply and demand. In a socialist system, you set prices, and you dictate to people how they use resources. Your position seems to be the latter, i.e, socialist. Or fascist, if you prefer (essentially, a form of socialism). You are most certainly [i]not[/i] making a free market argument. |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 10:41:26 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: Quoted: While I grant that people should be able to drive what they want, I take exception to this statement, I've heard it before. The problem is that those that drive gas guzzlers set the price for people who drive more economical vehicles and are using up the finite quantity of oil much faster. By this argument, people who commute longer distances are even more guilty than those who live in the 'burbs' and drive 'gas guzzlers'. But this is all economic horseshit. The price of gas is low because it is plentiful. While in theory it is finite, we now have greater known oil reserves, in terms of "years of future usage", than we did back in the 20s. As the price of gas goes up, more resources will be put into finding more oil. If oil supplies do become short, prices will sharply rise. This will lead consumers to change their habits. But that hasn't happened yet. The best way to allocate resources is via the free market. Allow prices to rise and fall according to market forces. The price of gas is not determined by SUVs alone. In fact, SUVs are probably a minor factor. What, 60 cents on every gallon of gas is directly due to the government? It ain't SUVs that cause you to pay "high" prices for gas. Quoted:Drive what you want, but don't use that argument. Everyone has to pay the price of gas set by users of less thrifty vehicles and everyone is affected by said price. Cool it with calling those that disagree with you 'socialists'. People drive "gas-guzzlers" because the price of gas is low. If the price of gas goes up, people will start buying economy cars, and make use of other resources. In free markets, you allow individuals to use resources as they see fit. You allow prices to rise and fall according to supply and demand. In a socialist system, you set prices, and you dictate to people how they use resources. Your position seems to be the latter, i.e, socialist. Or fascist, if you prefer (essentially, a form of socialism). You are most certainly [i]not[/i] making a free market argument. |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 12:01:39 PM EDT
[#46]
AR15FENCER Neither of us are socialists, or jerks or a$$holes. You are only [b]half[/b] right on that point. I agree that brouhaha is definitely not a socialist, jerk or a$$hole. |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 12:04:30 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: I said nothing about setting prices or anything remotely like that. I never said anything about setting anything or telling people what they can drive. All I said is that the argument of 'if I can afford it, so what' is invalid, because it does affect other people. Gas guzzlers DO drive the price up. Other than saying that this argument is invalid, I said nothing else. I am not trying to tell anyone what to drive, just don't tell me that it doesn't affect other people! Get over your damn name calling, ie socialist and fascist. I am neither. Read what I type, not what you interpret it as. If "gas guzzlers" drove the price up, the response of consumers would be to conserve gas--by not driving "gas guzzlers", by driving less, by not driving at all. In the meantime, oil companies would put more money into exploration and exploiting known supplies that are not currently feasable. The end result would be that gas prices would drop back to near their original levels. In any case, in a free market you should be able to buy what you want, even if your neighbors don't think you need it. On a historical note, when adjusted for inflation, gas prices are very low today compared to, say, 20 years ago. Low gas prices make SUVs practicle. Your argument--that my SUV drives up your prices--can only be interpreted as a call for centralized controls. You can say that you are not calling for central controls all you want--your argument implies that such controls are neccessary. After all, nasty SUV owners are hurting the public by driving up prices. Gee, what does that imply? Further, centralized controls are not part of a free market system. Rather, they are part of a socialist of fascist system. |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 12:04:37 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: AR15FENCER Neither of us are socialists, or jerks or a$$holes. You are only [b]half[/b] right on that point. I agree that brouhaha is definitely not a socialist, jerk or a$$hole. Thank you Bud! [beer] |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 12:27:50 PM EDT
[#49]
Damn, I guess if my opinion conflicts with yours, I'm a badguy. I don't like ONE thing that SOME people own, and I'm a FACIST. I say I wouldnt' care if they were more regulated, and I'm a SOCIALIST. Gosh guys, my opinions about a type of vehicle have NOTHING TO DO WITH MY POLITICAL STANDINGS. Get over yourselves and get off the name calling and labeling.
Notice how anyone who has expressed anything similar to my OPINIONS or feelings about this topic has been called SOCIALIST, FACIST, and a whole lot of other things. Unintelligent people resort to name calling. I have yet to call anyone any names. Go figure |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 12:29:19 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: Notice how anyone who has expressed anything similar to my OPINIONS or feelings about this topic has been called SOCIALIST, FACIST, and a whole lot of other things. That's because what you're suggesting [i]is[/i] socialism. If the shoe fits... |
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