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6/25/2017 7:35:25 PM
6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 10/7/2001 8:23:21 PM EDT
Hey, Like a lot of you out there, I've been hearing on the news about the recent run on gas masks due to the 9/11 attacks, and now, our military response. I don't question that chem & bio weapons are available for our enemies to use against us, or that they would hesitate for a moment to attack civillians with these weapons. The issue on my mind is the effectiveness of the "garden variety" gas mask, and whether it's worth buying at all. I'm hardly an expert in this area, but my thinking is that depending upon the agent they use - just speaking in bio warfare, not chem, as chem has too many too list - it would either be Anthrax, Tularemia, Brucellosis, Q-fever, Yersina pestis, Yellow fever, or Venezulan equine encphalomyelitis. Anthrax is usually sprayed, but the rest of these are carried by either animals or incects, with incubation periods of up to 20 days. Starting to understand? Also in the bio arena, there are toxins that include Botulinium toxins, some of the most potent known (15,000 times more powerful than VX and 100,000 times more powerful than sarin), that can be easily mistaken for something other than a bio attack, and most likely go undiagnosed for the 1st crucial 24 hours. Not to mention shellfish poison and ricin. Now, just looking at the above biological weapons that are for use against people, not livestock or crops, what good would a gas mask (some of which are now selling for $200) do? I understand that people are worried, and like I said, maybe I'm wrong here, but I'm thinking that if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, just get ready to shake Saint Peter's hand at the pearly gates. What's next? Will people start buying entire MOPP suits and living in plastic bubbles? I say to sink that extra $200 into ammo, or better yet, use it to buy something made in the USA! I'd like it if anyone out there has some info on the pros & cons of having a gas mask in this crisis. Is it something worthwhile or not? Have you bought one recently? Let me know! Samhain44
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 8:30:26 PM EDT
Gasmasks probably wouldnt help very much at all, but they are pretty cool anyway!
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 8:34:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JBR: Gasmasks probably wouldnt help very much at all, but they are pretty cool anyway!
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I could not have said it better myself.... [marines]
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 8:35:57 PM EDT
Who will warn you when there is an attack?
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 8:53:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LotBoy: Who will warn you when there is an attack?
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The people all running and gasping for air as they throw up there insides.(UUUUh sorry by that time it would be to late for you also.)
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 9:00:29 PM EDT
I saw on CBS' 60 Minutes II, an expert in biological warfare had a syringe, full of water, he sprayed some of the liquid on the lady's hand, and he asked her, did you feel that? She answered "no." He said that this is enough of a lethal biolgoical agent(I forget the name) is needed to kill. He also said that people wouldn't know that they have been exposed because there is an incubation period before it would affect humans, by that time when people are falling over, it would be too late to put on the gas mask. He also said that someone must also advise when to put on your mask.
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 9:45:15 PM EDT
Anyone know how effective gas masks are against chem weapons? How long would the a typical chem attack linger in the air? Hey, one more thing, as it's now getting cold in NYC, (30 at night, 50's during day) how would this effect a chem or bio weapon? Samhain44
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 9:46:54 PM EDT
Anyone know how effective gas masks are against chem weapons? How long would the a typical chem attack linger in the air? Hey, one more thing, as it's now getting cold in NYC, (30 at night, 50's during day) how would this effect a chem or bio weapon? Samhain44
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 9:48:41 PM EDT
Anyone know how effective gas masks are against chem weapons? How long would the a typical chem attack linger in the air? Hey, one more thing, as it's now getting cold in NYC, (30 at night, 50's during day) how would this effect a chem or bio weapon? Samhain44
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 9:57:05 PM EDT
Anyone know how effective gas masks are against chem weapons? How long would the a typical chem attack linger in the air? Hey, one more thing, as it's now getting cold in NYC, (30 at night, 50's during day) how would this effect a chem or bio weapon? Samhain44
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 10:16:03 PM EDT
It's a right-tool-for-the-job issue. You don't expect to be able to use a fire extinguisher as protection against a tornado, but that doesn't mean that it has no place in the overall safety equation. With some warning from civil defense authorities, in a semi-sealed bedroom or bathroom, a gas mask might make the difference between life or death against some chemical agents. Furthermore, gas masks are currently selling for around $50 in my area — not much more than dinner for two at a good restaurant. If it makes you feel better, why not get one? Even if you never use it, it'll make a good conversation piece to tell your grandkids about 40 years from now.
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 10:21:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Skibane: It's a right-tool-for-the-job issue... ...If it makes you feel better,...
Yeah, it's only for specific contingencies, but the wife feels better that we have them. I just pulled them out the day of the attacks just to check their condition.
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 11:16:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2001 11:18:27 PM EDT by Skibane]
As it's now getting cold in NYC, (30 at night, 50's during day), how would this effect a chem or bio weapon?
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According to my NBC Battlebook ([URL]http://chppm-www.apgea.army.mil/documents/TG/TECHGUID/BATBOOKa.pdf[/URL]), cold weather tends to make chemical agents stick around longer. However, you have to balance that against the fact that most homes are closed up tight in cold weather, making them more resistant to chemical agent entry. Generally, cold weather increases the danger of transmitting diseases, because closed indoor spaces increase the concentration of airborne pathogens. One important point: Most infectious diseases rely on very fragile transmission mechanisms that can be easily broken. By religiously practising good personal hygene habits, your chances of contracting smallpox and other killer diseases are GREATLY reduced: 1. WASH YOUR HANDS! 2. KEEP YOUR HANDS AWAY FROM YOUR FACE! 3. AVOID CROWDS WHENEVER POSSIBLE! Following these basic precautions could reduce the effects of a BW attack by several orders of magnitude.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 12:12:59 AM EDT
Hey, at least the damn west nile spreading mosquitos will die up here. [50] Now, if we could only get rid of the pigeons and rats.... [rocket] Seriously though, I'm as concerned as anyone about the effects of chem / bio weapons being unleashed upon NYC (or anywhere else, except for Iraq and Afganistan, for that matter...) but I just think that there's not much a gas mask will do to help. There are some people making a bundle on other's fears ( like http://www.gasmask.com - sells masks for $289.00) which is as low as being a carpetbagger after the civil war. Like I said, I'm no expert, but it seems like this is a weapon that the general public could do little if anything to defend itself against. On another topic, what do you guys think that local law enforcement should do to better prep themselves for chem or bio weapons? Last year, FEMA held a conference in the Hilton here in Manhattan, on Chem and Bio terrorism, where they had 6 federal marshalls drive around times square pouring baby powder out the windows of their car as they drove. The scary thing? Not one cop or person even asked what they were doing. How can local cops and rescue personell (the 1st ones to respond to this kind of attack) be better perpared to identify and deal with a chem / bio assault? SAMHAIN44
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 3:22:40 AM EDT
Even if you have a gas mask and put t on in time, if you have any more than 1 day's growth of facial hair, it won't seal properly. Also, don't buy anything you can't get quantitatively fit-tested on. A gas mask that doesn't fit properly (or is not worn properly) doesn't do you any good. There's this company I know of that makes a counter-terrorism kit for law enforcement, they've sold some to the Cincinnati PD and the New Orleans PD. They're called "Worldprep" Check them out: "www.worldprep.com"
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 3:33:13 AM EDT
If you think wearing or having a gas mask is cool, you apparently have not spent a lot of time at MOPP 4. I think that is a very valid point, to ensure that our mask work and fit the Marines properly (this is after they re fitting by either an NBC-Officer or NCO) we take the Marines into a gas chamber filled with CS. It not unusual to find someone who mask is not sealing or working right, they come running out of the chamber gagging and puking because there mask isn't working, but we discover that in a non-toxic environment. Most of you are buying gear that may not fit right or in a serviceable condition. So you need to make sure the mask actually works. Now that is spite of the fact that a gas mask will only do you good against a limited number of threats, namely riot control and choking agents. . If you get hit with GB (Sarin) or any other nerve agent, you can get more than a lethal does even with a mask on. Most of the chemicals that would be used to attack human are also absorbed through the skin. So you need a full NBC suit in order to protect yourself from the effects of battlefield chemical munitions. But than you get into the issues of decontamination/exchange of your protective over garment. Most persistent against will last longer than the life expectancy of the charcoal lined suits used by the western militaries, so if you don’t decon or change your suit, it will do you no good. Gas Masks are not really any help against bio attacks unless you wear it 24-7, and than it only will protect against a limited variety of threats, since many have non-airborne vectors. Combine that with the fact that the first indicator of a Bio attack is often several weeks after the occurrence, and involves a large number of people going to the hospital with similar symptoms, you could already have been a victim and not yet aware of it. The military recognizes that the best means of protection against bio attack is immunization, followed by proper hygiene (most live agents are delivered via animal vector).
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 3:39:04 AM EDT
Granted a lot of people have run out and bought gas masks - but this alone could be counterproductive. A weak effort at best. A lot of surplus gas masks don't work ( Mask seal inop., canister seal broken, leaks in mask, etc) or are out-dated - even the US M-17 mask is obsolete. ( How do you find out if your mask is useless? Quickest way - sit in a gas chamber full of burning CS.) he Army is currently moving to get rid of the M-40 gas mask and replace it with a more effective mask. Consider that to protect yourself you must protect yourself against nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons - many which will strike with no warning. If someone things they are safe because they have MOPP gear, is the suit sealed in the original packaging? If not, you are not protected. Is it even the right size? Do you have overboots, rubber gloves, an M256 kit, or something like an M-8 chemical alarm. Do you have access to modern decontamination gear? Keep in mind that most of the military's equipment is obsolete and chances of survival as a civilian are worse. Your best chance of survival is to avoid being in the area of a potential attack period. Especially with todays many new strains of biological weapons and viruses.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 11:27:28 AM EDT
I think you guys underestimate the utility of a good mask. A current NATO filter WILL protect against all bio and chemical threats, and Anthrax only gets down to 1 micrometer in size so even a home-depot respirator will stop this. Anthrax is the biggest threat and its most dangerous route of infection is inhalation. You could get infected via skin, but its less likely. You can also use one-piece rainsuits (foul weather gear) to protect against non-caustic agents. If the terrorists are smart (and they are) they will infect water supplies, not air.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 11:40:34 AM EDT
dbrowne1 I don't anyone is arguing a gas mask can not offer any protection under any cirumstances. But in the context we are discussing it will not. Most of the items in duscussion give no warning until after the attack,,so how would you know to go to a increased level of proterction, or will you just walk around in MOPP 4 all day long ever day?
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 11:47:23 AM EDT
They won't do much against a terror attack, but they sure are handy for when the ATF or FBI come to seize your 12,000 rounds of ammo and personal "arsenal." I also recommend nomex clothing and asbestos suits. Fire fighting equipment wouldn't be a bad idea either.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 2:43:40 PM EDT
Some of the arguements against gas masks I'm seeing here remind me a lot of some of the anti-gun arguements. Yes, you can dream up situations where a mask alone won't offer adequate protection, but there are also a lot of situations where it will. Frankly, flatly stating that a gas mask is useless is just as dangerous and irresponsible as claiming that it will work under all conditions. Israeli citizens have been issued gas masks on various occasions, but never with the NBC suit to accompany them. The logic behind this omission is entirely valid — Namely, a room that is sealed with plastic, duct tape, etc. is capable of providing much of the same protection as a suit. If you stay in the room, wearing a gas mask could easily make the difference between surviving or dieing in an attack. Furthermore, some chemical agents announce their presence long before the concentration becomes high enough to be deadly. Thus, even in the complete absence of a warning from civil defense authorities, people could in some cases have plenty of time to put their masks on. No precaution is perfect. However, as long as you're aware of its limitations, there is nothing wrong with exploiting it!
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 3:54:40 PM EDT
Actually the other it is the other way around, the argument that having a gas mask can stop your death from a NBC attack is almost the same as saying “by getting ride of guns we get ride of crime,” both only give a false sense of security and both are totally false. Which chemical munitions are you referring to, a few like phosgene, AC, CK have a odor to them. But properly produced GA, GB, and VX are odorless. And not to bust your bubble more Israelis have been killed by try to use their gas masks than were killed though the use of the chemicals they were designed to protect against.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 4:17:28 PM EDT
people buying gasmasks are just doing it for a feel good mesure just like during the cold war with the whole ducking under your desk will save you in a nuke strike.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 4:25:40 PM EDT
No hentai makes me go crazy too cyrax777
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 5:32:51 PM EDT
Unless you know there is agent near and all of your exposed skin is covered, in most cases you are screwed. At the least it will buy you time to reach a safe area and treatment.Oh yeah, It will take four filter changes to see you through a 24 hr period with the M17. People in my area are paying $400.00 for a mask with filters without knowing if the filters are used or how old they are. My .02
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 5:44:52 PM EDT
Nope.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 6:00:36 PM EDT
The problem is that even professionals don't always wear their respiratory equipment properly. I've got at least a dozen pics from NY of responders improperly wearing half-face respirators and dust masks. I fit test people for respirator wear professionally, I think this qualifies me as somewhat of a specialist in this field. Granted, when SHTF, no one gives a squat about OSHA standards, but in day-to-day industrial use, proper respirator wear depends on selecting the right type and size of mask, the correct cartridge, and proper technique and hygiene while wearing a respirator. Most filtering respirators are only good for up to 10 times the OSHA PEL (permissable exposure limit.) I would hazard a guess that any exposure to a chemical warfare agent would take place in concentrations higher than industrial PEL's. Let us not forget that unless you have a self-contained breathing apparatus, your respirator doesn not generate breathable air. If you end up getting attacked with a common industrial chemical like Chlorine, Ammonia, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, etc... these gasses can displace the breathable air and you will likely be suffocated. As for duct-taping yourself in a room, if breathable O2 can get in, why can't poisonous contaminants get in with it? Food for thought.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 6:07:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tayous1:
Originally Posted By LotBoy: Who will warn you when there is an attack?
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The people all running and gasping for air as they throw up there insides.(UUUUh sorry by that time it would be to late for you also.)
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Bingo.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 6:16:34 PM EDT
[img]www.micronelsafety.com/m952.gif[/img] [url]http://www.micronelsafety.com/m95.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 6:19:42 PM EDT
First off I agree that if it's a bio attack won't do any good. If it's a chem attack it [i]might[/i] do [i]good[/i] assuming you have a properly functioning mask. Secondly, in a chem attack by terrorists I doubt that they would be capable of producing a high quality chemical agent, not like the US or the former USSR could anyway. Usually there are symptoms before your past the point of no return, and why can't you get M8 or M9 detection paper, that's what infantry uses on patrol when they can't carry mechanical detectors? Sure your skin will absorb a certain amount, but not nearly as much as your lungs and eyes will. Most chemical agents dissapate rather rapidly, depending on weather conditions of course, chlorine evaporates rapidly for example. I don't have a mask, but I'm in an area of the country that's unlikely to be attacked (read: rural) but if I was in a population center it could'nt hurt.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 6:32:04 PM EDT
CIB By the time you recieve the symptoms that are self diagnosable, it is time to take the atropine and 2-PAM cloride. And again that begs the question, are planning to walk around with M8 or M9 paper (which is designed to detect liquid contact and causes health problems if it comes into direct contact with your skin, in reality you need a M256 kit or a CAAM to detect most vapor) and a mask strapped to you hip all the time. Because that is what is required. So if you into having a false sense of security go ahead.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 7:12:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2001 7:09:40 PM EDT by Skibane]
And not to bust your bubble more Israelis have been killed by try to use their gas masks than were killed though the use of the chemicals they were designed to protect against.
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Yes, and 87 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot! Regarding the ability to detect chemical agents, I again defer to the [b]NBC Medical Battlebook[/b]: GA: Has a slightly fruity odor. GB: Has a faintly sweet smell. GD: Has slight camphor odor and gives off a colorless vapor. GF: Liquid with sweet or musty odor of peaches. VX: Oily amber-colored liquid similar in appearance to motor oil. Vx: Faint fishy odor. H and HD: Liquid is colorless when pure, but it is normally a yellow to brown oily substance. Vapor is colorless with a slight garlic or mustard like odor. HT: A clear yellowish liquid with a slight garlic or mustard like odor. Insoluble in water. HN-1 Oily, colorless to pale yellow with a faint, fishy, or musty odor. Soluble in organic solvents. HN-2 Pale amber to yellow oily liquid; fruity odor in high concentrations; smells like soft soap with a fishy smell in low concentrations. HN-3 Colorless to pale yellow liquid with a butter almond odor. L: Usually contains small amounts of impurities that give it a brownish color and an odor resembling geranium oil. HL: Has garlic-like odor from its HD content. CX: Has a disagreeable, penetrating odor. CG Fog-like in its initial concentration, but it becomes colorless as it spreads; it has both a newly mown hay or green corn odor and a highly toxic suffocating odor. DP: Has a newly mown hay or green corn odor. AC: Has a faint odor similar to bitter almonds that sometimes cannot be detected even at lethal concentrations. CK: Odor of CK often goes unnoticed because it is so irritating to the mucous membranes. DM: Irritates nasal passages similar to pepper; no odor, but irritating. DA: Vapor odor is shoe polish, vapor color is white or gray DC: apor odor is garlic, vapor color is white CN: Colorless to gray crystalline solid with a sharp, irritating floral odor. CA: In pure form, colorless crystalline solid with sour or rotten fruit odor. CNS: Clear liquid smelling like flypaper; it has an immediately strong irritating effect on the eyes and respiratory tract. May cause severe nausea. White smoke. PS: Colorless, oily liquid with a stinging pungent odor. Insoluble in water; soluble in organic solvents. CS: White crystalline solid; burnt to create a colorless gas with an acrid pepper-like smell. CR: Pale yellow crystalline solid; has a pepper-like odor. Finally, this tidbit: "Nerve agents may be absorbed through any body surface. When dispersed as a spray or an aerosol, droplets can be absorbed through the skin, eyes, and respiratory tract. [b]When dispersed as a vapor at expected field concentrations, the vapor is primarily absorbed through the respiratory tract[/b]."
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 7:43:54 PM EDT
As for duct-taping yourself in a room, if breathable O2 can get in, why can't poisonous contaminants get in with it?
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The basic idea is to seal the room tightly enough so that nothing (including oxygen) gets in. Naturally, most people will fall far short of that perfect standard, but even a half-assed effort should still keep gas concentrations inside the room at levels well below those outside the room. Most decent-sized rooms will already have enough oxygen inside them to keep several people alive for at least several hours.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 2:52:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2001 2:54:11 AM EDT by STLRN]
Well I went to one of the manual that I use to use when I taught TB02AB (chemical warfare) to Lts here is what it has to say about G series: The G-agents are fluorine-or cyanide-containing organophosphates. In pure form they are colorless liquids. Their solubility in water ranges from complete miscibility for GB to almost total insolubility for GD. They have a weakly fruity odor [red]BUT IN FIELD CONCENTRATIONS ARE ODORLESS.[/red] Clothing gives off G-agents for about 30 minutes after contact with vapor; consider this fact before unmasking. The manual also stated the same thing about both VX and Vx, in field concentration (not in amount that can be held in buckets that they are refering the amounts you will actually see in use and you will not be able to smell them, If you are talking about in doses you can smell it is too late, especially when you in a city with other smells) Do you know what most of the other agents even are? H and HD: Liquid is colorless when pure, but it is normally a yellow to brown oily substance. Vapor is colorless with a slight garlic or mustard like odor. HT: A clear yellowish liquid with a slight garlic or mustard like odor. Insoluble in water. HN-1 Oily, colorless to pale yellow with a faint, fishy, or musty odor. Soluble in organic solvents. HN-2 Pale amber to yellow oily liquid; fruity odor in high concentrations; smells like soft soap with a fishy smell in low concentrations. HN-3 Colorless to pale yellow liquid with a butter almond odor. L: Usually contains small amounts of impurities that give it a brownish color and an odor resembling geranium oil. HL: Has garlic-like odor from its HD content. CX: Has a disagreeable, penetrating odor. These are Vesicants, Utricants and Arsenicals (blister agents) respectively, They are generally considered non-lethal (can be lethal in extreme doses or when not attended to by medical authorities) and not a likely to be used by terrorists CG Fog-like in its initial concentration, but it becomes colorless as it spreads; it has both a newly mown hay or green corn odor and a highly toxic suffocating odor. DP: Has a newly mown hay or green corn odor. These are Phosgene based choking agents, almost no use to a terrorist since large quanities are required. AC: Has a faint odor similar to bitter almonds that sometimes cannot be detected even at lethal concentrations. CK: Odor of CK often goes unnoticed because it is so irritating to the mucous membranes. These blood agents that are too short lived and will not be used DM: Irritates nasal passages similar to pepper; no odor, but irritating. DA: Vapor odor is shoe polish, vapor color is white or gray DC: apor odor is garlic, vapor color is white These are all Vomiting agents, designed to use in harassment. CN: Colorless to gray crystalline solid with a sharp, irritating floral odor. CA: In pure form, colorless crystalline solid with sour or rotten fruit odor. CNS: Clear liquid smelling like flypaper; it has an immediately strong irritating effect on the eyes and respiratory tract. May cause severe nausea. White smoke. PS: Colorless, oily liquid with a stinging pungent odor. Insoluble in water; soluble in organic solvents. CS: White crystalline solid; burnt to create a colorless gas with an acrid pepper-like smell. CR: Pale yellow crystalline solid; has a pepper-like odor. These are all tear agents, again just like D agents no real use.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 2:56:18 AM EDT
And yes there were like 6 fatalities in Israel in 1991, When the Scud alarms went off people put their gas masks on. Some of them were to stupid to remove the seal off the intact of their mask. They suffocated, but since they thought they were under chemical attack they didn’t realize it.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 6:22:44 AM EDT
Doubt seriously (though possible) that we'll see use of any nerve agent in the US. One, unless its a binary, dangerous as hell to handle. Two, it really does take quite a bit to produce massive casualties. Three, awful hard to manufacture, especially in quantity, though its not much different than Raid. The two confirmed attacks of Aum Shinrikyo (yes TWO, 12 in Tokyo, 7 at Matsumoto the year before) utilizing Sarin killed a total of 19 people for millions of dollars of effort. Additionally, they attempted use of Botul Toxin and Anthrax, with little effect. Though not producing serious events, the desired effect of terroristic use of non-conventional weapons may be psychological. Whomever scored in Florida did better than Aum, so we must assume they have upgraded capabilities. This said, it would still take hundreds of these types of low grade attacks to equal the Union Carbide disaster at Bhopal, or more conventional attacks, such as the world trade center. If the desire is large scale casualties, different meathods may be pursued. Without getting into specifics, there are plenty of industrial chemical processes which utilize or would allow the formation of gaseous poisons. They are available at large scales. The danger for most is inhalation. My concern would not be Soman or Tabun, but less exotic threats. But, as we have seen with the WTC, excluding threats from an ingenious and ruthless foe is awful dangerous. I'll not dissuade anyone from buying a mask. In most cases if you need it, you will be better served than not having one. Most of the above advice is thoughtful, seriously consider it. I'd not pay the exorbitant fees I've seen. If you have to have one now there are mainstream sources that are reasonable. Keep this in mind, at present you are at more risk driving your car than to ANY terrorist act, let alone a non-conventional event. One other point, as most geiger counters go off scale at fairly low levels of radiation, so too do many NIOSH approved filters in agent concentrations denser than they are rated for, as Artifex pointed out. Well there is no NIOSH approval for use in some of these applications, but consider this. Luck Alac
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 6:48:50 AM EDT
Artifex, can you please expound on this. If I understand correctly the Industrial type NIOSH filters (chlorine,hydrogen chloride, etc.) are NOT going to provide protection for chemical attack.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 7:52:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2001 7:57:22 PM EDT by Alacrity]
Like to see if Artifex can expand as well, as he's in the loop on OSHA/NIOSH regs. Just so you know, DOD has their own standards. As for your question concerning NIOSH approval for filters, well think it’s a matter of technicalities. Judge for yourself. GME/P100 Combination Cartridge for Advantage® 1000 Respirator Manufacturer: MSA Mfg. Model#: 815366 This filter has been labeled the "civilian" (read non-LE Military) NBC rated filter for the Advantage 1000 mask. Think this link will explain it better. http://www.3m.com/market/safety/ohes2/html/respirator_notice.html 3M response, in part- "NIOSH does not currently test and certify respirators for use against chemical or biological warfare agents. The respirators are currently tested and certified for hazardous industrial contaminants and applications. In discussions with NIOSH, they suggest using either an air purifying half facepiece respirator (that is one that fits over the nose and under the chin) or an air purifying full facepiece respirator (one that fits over the eyes and under the chin) with P100 (high efficiency) filters for dusts and other solid airborne contaminants and a cartridge for organic vapors and acid gases. These respirators can only be used for escaping from an area and not longer-term exposures. They are also not effective with high concentrations of these agents" So they are recommending the P100 Filters -OV/AG Cartriges, but I dont think they have enough filtration media to meet DOD requirements. Grey area. P100 filters better than nothing? Undoubtedly. Best fix? Not at all. As NIOSH has no current guidelines, who does? DOD. Love the "half facepiece" suggestion. My point? NIOSH and OSHA do not deal well with this stuff, their regs are designed for and occupy themselves with unassailable levels of safety, which don’t exist for NBC warfare. Their methodology is wholly unsuited for this at present. But they are good people and I'm sure they'll catch up. No one forsaw this. If you get nerve agent popped on you, lets not kid ourselves, even in MOPP-4 your gonna have plenty of deaders. As I said above, I personally am losing no sleep over this. But Im sure it brings some piece of mind to have the information available. STLRN you spend time in Anniston? NNTK but curious. Interested in your response as well as Artifex. Luck Alac
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 2:01:15 PM EDT
No all my time has been (other than schools) either in the 2nd Mardiv or in instructor billets.
Link Posted: 10/11/2001 4:06:02 AM EDT
Ahh Didnt realize, I forget about y'all. Think this thread is dead, but Artifex, if you could comment on the filter question above - would appreciate. Not sure my post answered JMO's question adequately. Luck Alac
Link Posted: 10/11/2001 4:42:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2001 4:41:17 AM EDT by sopmodm4]
Gas Masks Work,If you are not in the direct path of the contaminant and you here about it you can put on your mask and keep it out of your lungs.Unless you are right at the epicenter of an attack you have a high likelyhood of being able to protect yourself.The Sarin gas attack in Japan showed the various levels of exposure at various distances from the point of dispersal.If you see people chuffing and puffing even 15M from you you could get a mask on in time to limit your exposure.Even against biological agents a plain HEPA filter will protect you until the filter material is saturated with contaminant.If there is an outbreak in your area tape a few hundred yards of visqueen around your house and turn off the AC and cover your vents.An autobody paintbooth suit and a gas mask will allow you to go outside once the threat subsides and you can use a lawn sprayer attachement on your garden hose filled with bleach to decontaminate your structure and vehicles.If you can't find a gas mask get an industrial respirator or even a paper doctors type mask.It could help keep that one anthrax spore from going into your lungs and save your life.
Link Posted: 10/11/2001 6:08:25 AM EDT
Don't make the issue too complicated (sopmodm4 makes some sense). A truck load of Anhydrous Ammonia (common fertilizer), crashed in a populated area could cause more damage than a bomb. Your gas mask lets you leave a contaminated area while everyone without a mask chokes to death. OK, which is more likely? Sophisticated nerve agent or truck load of fertilizer?
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