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6/21/2017 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 10/6/2001 9:59:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2001 9:54:27 AM EDT by zazou]
Well, it was a real wake up for this cop. About 2am last night my neighbors audible security alarm went off. It has happened before but never this late into the night. She is old and apparently doesn't know how to disarm it or something. Go Figure. Anyhow, it woke me up quick and I knew exactly what it was, but also I realized it was as late as it was. I can see her house from my room and did not see any signs of exterior activity, but no lights were on inside either. After it was on for more than about 90 seconds I decided it might not be a mistake. I dressed as fast as i could. (BTW, here something we should all think about. Getting dressed quick is one thing, but clothes and shoes to go out into the night when it is cold in the 20's is something I don' t think I have ever drilled before. Where are my shoes?, etc) Dressed, I grabbed my P228 in a paddle holster and put in my waistband, checked on my daughter quickly and went downstairs, leaving my wife at the front door with a cordless phone. By now the alarm was about 3 minutes old I suspect. I knew where the alarm was coming from, but it is one of those constant loud tones that actually are hard to detect the source for anyone approaching. It could be any of the last 3 houses on the street. Our porch light was on and it is pretty bright. I moved to sideways off the walk and along the side of the house and out far enough to see the front of the neighbors house while maintaining some fair, but coverless, concealment along some bushes, etc. I observed the house for about 10 seconds when I saw the rustling in the shrub pines that line the front of our yard about 25ft from my position. I watched the shrubs for about another five seconds and was able to make out the shillouette of a person, dressed in all dark clothing. I put my hand on the SIG and from behind the concealment yelled over the noise "Stop There" He heard me, but I don't think he really understood me over the continual high pitched shrill of the alarm. The figure backed up and started toward the sound of my voice, but it was obvious he had no idea where it actually came from and confused. I elected to keep him confused and let him move closer, not too close...just a better shot if I needed it. Then he started slowly up my walkway, still looking around for the voice. As he was dressed in all black I still could not make out good details of the person. He had entered the light radius from the porch light and could see he was having trouble seeing anything with the bright light in his field of vision. That was close enough. [cont]
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 9:59:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2001 10:02:29 AM EDT by zazou]
"Stop," I yelled. He did. Still he did not seem have any indication of where I was. "I am armed. Identify Yourself." "You have gun?" he said suddenly very stiff and shocked. He was looking around. He was young, maybe 24 or 25 and did not seem to have a clear course of action. At this point is the first indicator I had that he was a LEO. He slowly moved his coat open for better access to his duty arm, though I still could not be sure he was a cop. He certainly was not behaving like one. "Yes. I am armed. Identify Yourself" As forceful as I could, lifting the SIG out of the tension of the holster. "Police Officer" He moved forward about 3 feet and I saw his badge and general LEO'ness of his clothing. I watched him for a few seconds "O.K.," I said, putting the 228 back to a secure position And slowly moved out of the concealment hands first, watching his hands the whole way.... just in case. "The pistol is on my right side" He moved forward a bit and now i was sure it was a LEO. "Do you want me to turn around?" "Oh. Yes" I was becoming less comfortable with his handle on the situation. He seemed jumpy and unsure. He kept moving closer but said nothing. "OK,' I said, " I am gonna move my coat aside and show it to you. Take it." "OK," he said and did. Once he had it and stepped back he told me to turn around. "It is the house next door," I told him. "She's Old, I don't know if it is for real. It has happened before." "I am going to put your weapon down here. Step back a ways and wait here" "OK," I said. He proceeded across my lawn and over the fence to the neighbors...and then inside. I think he basically left me there as his cover. I stood and watched the house, ready to go if there was trouble, my pistol 10 feet away. Eventually, it turned out ot be a false alarm, for whatever reason. He returned after 5 minutes and said thank you and that I could collect my pistol and go inside. When I came inside I had time to reflect. I wonder if I waited too long, or not long enough for a good ID on the LEO. I didn't see his cruiser until later when he moved it closer to the house. It is a small town, the cop had no back up so I have some doubt as to his handling. I do know if it had been a bad guy, I was doing fine. I learned that I need to be more ready to 'hop to' in the middle of the night. I will work on that. Otherwise, did I do OK? In the end I really don't like the fact that I was forced to draw on a LEO, mostly out of a result of his handling fo the event. I am going to the range today to vent some of this off Zaz
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 10:05:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 10:07:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 10:25:50 AM EDT
Good job, and way to come to the aid of your neighbors, but I'm not sure of why you volunteered to be disarmed on your own property. All's well that ends well, and it's not really fair to Saturday morning quarterback you. I'm glad everyone came out okay.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 10:26:18 AM EDT
IMOHO, Most alarms are designed to call the police. No flame here, but the alarm should have been the first indicator that police were or were going to be on the scene. It's always good to have caring neighbors looking after each other, but in this particular case, getting involved could have ended in tragedy. I don't care who is better trained, more prepared, etc, etc, etc, the bottom line is one little mistake in either direction & you or the cop could have wound up shot. Personally, I would have made a land-line to the police & kept watch from my house in order to be an excellent witness. I only would have acted if there was a clear & present requirement to do so or if the police said response time was going to be long (and then I'd tell them I was going to check on her). Again, the above intends no flame, but I have to admit it's really good to have neighbors like you who actually care. The lady is fortunate to have you as a neighbor!
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 10:29:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2001 10:32:31 AM EDT by zazou]
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: Good job, and way to come to the aid of your neighbors, but I'm not sure of why you volunteered to be disarmed on your own property.
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I think the LEO would have been a lot more uncomfortable had I not offered. He was really shocked to find out I had him. I did it to ease his tensions, mostly. He did leave me access to it as he left though.
posted by PauliWalnuts: IMOHO, Most alarms are designed to call the police. No flame here, but the alarm should have been the first indicator that police were or were going to be on the scene. It's always good to have caring neighbors looking after each other, but in this particular case, getting involved could have ended in tragedy.
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Agreed. Remember I am in a small rural town and we have few officers at night and they could be 20-25 miles away easy. At some point we have to make a choice in how long we wait. Sometimes not getting involved can end in tragedy. Thanks for your support, however. Zaz
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 10:35:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By zazou: I think the LEO would have been a lot more uncomfortable had I not offered. He was really shocked to find out I had him. I did it to ease his tensions, mostly. He did leave me access to it as he left though.
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Cool Zaz. I'm sure you reduced his pucker factor by about 1000%...after he got over the fact that you already owned his ass, that is. Again, I'm glad you lived to fight another day.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 10:39:19 AM EDT
Shoulda busted out the AR!!!1 [bounce][bounce][bounce][bounce][bounce]
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 10:40:34 AM EDT
I think you did OK. Many LEO's aren't as "anti" as some may think when it comes to honest dudes using arms to protect their neighbors. I did something similar- My upstairs neighbor was single girl- her and boyfriend in a brutal fight- she kicked boyfriend out- boyfriend came back, and kicked in door- I came out of the house, and beaded in on him with my 12ga- cops came- asked "who had the shotgun"- I said "That was me"- The cop (woman cop) said "That's a good thing that you are willing to help your neighbors, but wait for us next time" That's it. I know people who have worse expierences, but my 2 with LEO's and the potential defensive use of a firearm have been OK to date.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 10:41:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: I'm not sure of why you volunteered to be disarmed on your own property.
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You're joking right? You really think a police officer checking a building in the middle of the night that comes upon an armed individual who had the drop on him isn't going to do this? His main concern is to check the alarm, not quibble over who's property he's on & have a 2nd Amendment debate with the guy who just had him at gun point. Ever hear of cooperation? Or is that something you just clearly don't believe in when it comes to police? The cop was EXTREMELY reasonable as zazou describes.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 10:56:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2001 10:53:19 AM EDT by Sweep]
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 11:00:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2001 11:08:41 AM EDT by Jarhead_22]
Originally Posted By PaulieWalnuts: You're joking right?...blah blah blah.
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I asked a simple question, he answered it and you've got your panties in a bunch.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 11:09:16 AM EDT
Good job! Glad you're OK.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 11:12:58 AM EDT
I agree with JarHead, why, with an alarm going off in the backround and a daughter he has to protect against who knows what would anyone voluntarily disarm. The cop could have kissed my ass before I left my daughter defensleless.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 11:19:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2001 11:15:13 AM EDT by zazou]
Originally Posted By hielo: I agree with JarHead, why, with an alarm going off in the backround and a daughter he has to protect against who knows what would anyone voluntarily disarm. The cop could have kissed my ass before I left my daughter defensleless.
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Point taken. I wanted him to get to the business of who knows what at hand and forget about me. The situation really came down to releasing my weapon or forcing him to draw on me. I chose not to escalate the situation. I had the better perspective, I had options. The LEO did not. BTW, house was not defenseles. Wife was just inside with the phone and a 590A at her side. Something I did not point out to the LEO. And had he taken my weapon with him I would have gone inside and rearmed. Zaz
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 11:41:47 AM EDT
You are a good neighbor. However, you didn't handle the situation as well as you think. If the Cop had not been alone you may not be alive to post this thread. You moved too fast, why not observe a little longer and be as sure as possible who you are drawing on? He didn't know you were there and was no threat to anyone at the time you froze him up. Small wonder Cops shoot the "wrong" people sometimes. This should be a wake up call for you as well as Johnny Law, small town crime fighter.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 11:58:19 AM EDT
The cop (woman cop) said "..., but wait for us next time"
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*BLINK*
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 12:04:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: I asked a simple question, he answered it and you've got your panties in a bunch.
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Jarhead- My apologies- I misread the part about VOLUNTARILY being disarmed. BTW- how do you know I wear panties?
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 12:07:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By PaulieWalnuts: Jarhead- My apologies- I misread the part about VOLUNTARILY being disarmed. BTW- how do you know I wear panties?
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Two words for you, PaulieWalnuts: Panty Lines! If you're going to wear tight jeans like that, you need to go to a thong, bro! Have a good one.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 12:10:18 PM EDT
[beer]but gota agree with floater-shoulda busted out the AR [:D]
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 12:10:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2001 12:06:54 PM EDT by zazou]
Originally Posted By Sukebe: You moved too fast, why not observe a little longer and be as sure as possible who you are drawing on?
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Because something was happening next door and it needed to be attended to. I did not have the realistic option of just sitting back. But maybe you are right. And, one thing. Drawing your weapon and drawing down on somone are diffreent.. I never sighted the LEO. Zaz
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 12:16:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 12:18:18 PM EDT
Jarhead- ROFLMAO!
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 12:18:38 PM EDT
And of course the best way to do that (with who knows how many alleged perpetrators running around out there) is to maintain control over your firearm. I agree.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 12:40:46 PM EDT
That whole thing could have gone bad real quick. You are quite lucky. Had you shot him you would be in jail and had he shot you you would be dead. Would either result be worth it. Next time stay you might want to stay inside and protect your own family and observe what is going on outside and relay that information. Not trying to flame, just try to civilly suggest a better option. Glad this one turned out well for you.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 1:14:59 PM EDT
Zaz, Not to flame ya either, but this couldve been handled with a little more tactic. You family shouldve been #1 priority. If you would've shot that cop, you would've for sure been incarcerated, and probably ruined financially, and if he shot you, your family would've been in a world of hurt over a false alarm. You didn't know it was false, but as you stated, it had happened before. Some seniors hit the alarm button at the sight of a mouse, or a the noise of the wind outside; I know, my neighbors has gone off many times. I secure my family first, with phone in hand to 911 and observe from the window Helping others is a trait in humans that sometimes has to be thought out critically. Now pulling someone out of a overturned car in this sue happy society has consequences; not saying I wouldnt pull someone out of a flaming car, but I would seriously think it out. There is no way in hell I would be outside in searching for who knows what at 2 in the morning with a home alarm blaring next door. Talk with your neighbor if she is eldery/widowed,etc. GIVE her your # and vice-a-versa. ARSwami
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 1:16:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 1:16:55 PM EDT
My only suggestion for that tense situation would have been a better target ID. For that either a big mag-light or a surefire, you could have ID'ed who ever it was alot faster and still been secure with your pistol. Just my .02 Worldskipper
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 1:26:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 2:18:46 PM EDT
I'm not even going to go into why you should not have done what you did because frankly I don't have the energy to get into the ensuing pissing contest. But for safeties sake let me just say to you or anyone reading this thread to call the police before going and checking out an alarm or anything else that the police might be responding on. Even plain clothed officers will notify dispatch that they are on a scene and give a description of themselves to be passed on to other officers arriving on the scene. Just think about all of the ways it could have gone and apply some common sense.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 2:32:24 PM EDT
zazou, what you did could have turned into the worst decision you could have ever made. Do you have a concealed permit? In my state and every other state that I have read up on states that you are only to use your weapon if your life, or the life of your family is at stake. You are to do whatever possible to get away from the threat. A gun does not give you the right to play cop. You should have retrieved your weapon, called the police, and secured your home and family. If you were to come across the criminal and you shot him you would be in jail for murder. Your wife without a husband, your kids without a father. I suggest everyone take a long hard look at what happened and re-think what you would have done. You have a gun in the hopes that you will never have to use it. Dont go looking for reasons to use it.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 2:38:47 PM EDT
I think that you did quite well...........
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 4:39:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2001 4:39:33 PM EDT by zazou]
Originally Posted By worldskipper: My only suggestion for that tense situation would have been a better target ID. For that either a big mag-light or a surefire, you could have ID'ed who ever it was alot faster and still been secure with your pistol. Just my .02 Worldskipper
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If he were the bad guy, he would have then known exactly where I was. I left the surefire in the night stand. This is a point I have thought about, though. next time I would take it.
posted by schapman43 what you did could have turned into the worst decision you could have ever made. Do you have a concealed permit? In my state and every other state that I have read up on states that you are only to use your weapon if your life, or the life of your family is at stake. You are to do whatever possible to get away from the threat. A gun does not give you the right to play cop. You should have retrieved your weapon, called the police, and secured your home and family
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He was on my property. I do not need a CCW; open, concealed or otherwise. Incidentlly it was in a paddel and visible. Please remember this is an elderly lady and this is an audible alarm. These are often used by older folks to ensure aid gets to them. Suppose it were an injury or heart attack. For those of you who would have chosen to not get involved I respect your opinion. However, we are always going on here about 'what can I do' and " I will defend my country.' etc stc. So how is this different? This is my community, my home. If a neighbor gets killed and I could have stopped it what kind of patriot, what kind of American, what kind of fcitizen does that make me? Let me stress--- My home was not defenseless. I was defending it. My wife waited inside, armed and on the phone. 911 knew nothing of the event until she called( I should have pointed that out originally) and like... I said in a town of 500 it is not unusual to have the PD or Fire more than 30 miles away. Zaz
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 5:47:46 PM EDT
Garandshooter, I may regt this, but just what the hell is a G.I. chicken plate???? fullclip
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 5:51:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 6:04:29 PM EDT
Garand-Shooter, thanks for the reply. I kind od thought it was a bullet proof vest, but didn't know for sure. Thanks again....fullclip
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 7:10:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2001 7:07:19 PM EDT by cnatra]
I think you did great. If I lived in a rural area I would do the same & hope my neighbors would too. I do think some type of flashlight would be a good idea & if I really thought I might encounter a bad guy outside my casa I think I'd strap on a class III vest.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 7:22:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By schapman43: zazou, what you did could have turned into the worst decision you could have ever made. Do you have a concealed permit? In my state and every other state that I have read up on states that you are only to use your weapon if your life, or the life of your family is at stake. You are to do whatever possible to get away from the threat. A gun does not give you the right to play cop. You should have retrieved your weapon, called the police, and secured your home and family. If you were to come across the criminal and you shot him you would be in jail for murder.
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If he was on his property he doesn't need a CCW! In TEXAS it is part of state law that an individual has a right to use deadly force to protect oneself or others from imminent bodily harm AND from dusk to dawn one's personal property. I don't know about MT. but Texas law gives much wider latitude to an armed citizen after dark. This guy was in rural Montana, not a major urban area. What is the repsones time for LEO's in rural areas? A person can't always wait for the cavalry to arrive.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 8:09:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By zazou: After it was on for more than about 90 seconds I decided it might not be a mistake. I dressed as fast as i could. By now the alarm was about 3 minutes old I suspect. I observed the house for about 10 seconds when I saw the rustling in the shrub pines that line the front of our yard about 25ft from my position. I watched the shrubs for about another five seconds and was able to make out the shillouette of a person, dressed in all dark clothing. [cont]
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I count 3 min. 15 sec. minimum response time. Yeah, with that kind of response time I'd get impatient too.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 8:13:56 PM EDT
Zazou, Great job. I use a .45,M-4,Maglite,& a vest.Don't turn light on till needed.Offer backup to Leo but if not needed or wanted tell Leo you will be in your house if he needs anything. We need more good citizens and less sheeple!!
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 8:18:45 PM EDT
I commend your dedication to your neighbors, however, let me give you this from my prospective (as a LEO). You knew this was probably a false alarm. You said the alarm had been tripped before accidently. There were no screams, breaking glass, shouting, ect. to give you indication of anything other then another false alarm. A simple call to 911 could have ensured that the police were enroute. Sure, if they are 20 minutes out, go check on your neighbor. BUT on this night, there was already on officer on scene. The 911 operator could have told you that before you left your house. If you insist on running over to the neighbors, at least dial 911 first so the officers know that you may be lurking around when they arrive. Once you encountered the officer, you made some very good decisions. Sound like he was a newer officer and if he's smart he just learned a big lesson. Just my 2 cents worth.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 8:19:40 PM EDT
It sounds like we have a few people who would have let flight 93 find its target. Not trying to flame just making a point.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 8:26:50 PM EDT
The problem here is you have too much pride in playing an LEO. Too many things could have gone wrong for you. You probably never considered that there could have been more than one. Should a backup spot you drawing on an LEO, you could have been carried by nine of your buddies later. Furthermore, courts do routinely uphold the belief that the sounding of alarms does NOT mean there is a threat of life or property. You even stated that the widow had problems with false alarms. How good would that had look in court for you? More than not, you were incredibly lucking that night.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 9:53:16 PM EDT
Good job. As long as folks are willing to take a risk to help each other out, good will prevail. But for god sake, be careful out there, we don't need any bad press!
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