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Posted: 10/4/2001 7:16:23 PM EDT
I have been using CS for years for the Flu and Sinus infections. Usually better in a couple days as opposed to 2 weeks. Cuts and scrapes heal very quickly faster than with Neosporin. Do you think it might be effective against a Bio attack if taken in large quantities? If you have never heard of it, do a search on the web, there is tons of info. I make mine using 9 volt batteries and distilled water. No Salt! Anyone else use CS.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 7:29:44 PM EDT
I've been making it for about 4 years or so. I take some every day. I use to get sinus infections often, bronchitus at least once a year, colds, etc.............. I've tried quite a few different alternative medicines, more than I can remember, but the CS & the food grade peroxide seem to work the best. I use a 2 amp battery charger & distilled water. I make several gallons at a time, after dilluting about 15 to 20 gal. I'm not sure about Bio attack, although if it does happen I will definately consume mass quantities of CS!!! So do you cook on the full moon only with the positive leads on the north side?? ColtShorty GOA KABA COA JPFO SAF NRA "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 7:35:35 PM EDT
I think you have no idea what you are doing. Not sure exactly what you're taking due to your home production method either. Heavy metal ingestion is, in general, a bad idea. FWIW, the initial antimicrobials used early in this century, prior to penicillin, were heavy metal compounds and were in a way analogous to chemo. They might even potentially kill you. Clearly, silver is not as toxic as arsenic or mercury compounds used then but I'd urge you to get medical care when you need it. The effects of heavy metals are cumulative and slow and you may not even be aware of them. If you want to use such topically(skin) use mercurichrome. Skin absorption will not be great in either event but at least you'll know what you're getting. And for god's sake don't give that shit to your kids or pregnant wife. Finally, treating viral infections with bacterial remedies is never of much benefit.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 7:58:33 PM EDT
No offense Doc but as with 98% of all doctors that I & my alternative medicine taking friends have spoken with none of them is even willing to talk about alt. meds. It cuts into their income, as in healthy people, no patients. I would guess that CS is still used for major burns in alot of hospitals & I believe it was used for flushing out newborns' eyes until replaced by some man made med. Just think, if more people were informed about alt. med. the doctor visits & insurance companies would be a hell of alot cheaper & the drug companies would'nt have a monoply on the drug market. There could even be a thing called affordable medicine!! If it were'nt for the alt. meds. I am taking now my health would be alot worse than it already is. ColtShorty GOA KABA COA JPFO SAF NRA "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 8:13:04 PM EDT
I gave good advice. You guys are adults and this is America so do as you will. I just felt obligated to advise. But don't give that fucking shit to your kids. Please. Personally, I can tell you that most of the people who go to the doctor don't need to. Obviously some others wait far too long. If my options were to bring common sense to medicine and benefit my country vs. make more money I'd choose the former, no problem. I've never done anything I wasn't good at and there is always another job. That I can tell you from much experience. As for alternative medicine, in general: About every thirty years or so there is a trend towards home remedies and alternative medicine. It eventually falls out of favor because few, if any, are shown in controlled studies to be helpful and many are shown to be potentially harmful. Playing doctor has become the great american sport over the last 10-15 years. If you knew all that I've learned over the last 10 years you'd understand. I'm not trying to be pompous but humbel. The human body is exquisitely complex and neither the art nor the science of medicine are simple. There, I spoke my piece.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 8:35:25 PM EDT
Colt, The major problem doctors have with "alternate" medicine is that there is very little researched based proof of the viability of the treatments. In Medical School (and Podiatric Medical School), you learn from prior research. Ideally, you want to read a study--"We did a prospective double blind study of 100 patients with drug X and a placebo. The outcome was....". Much of Naturopathic/Homeopathic stuff may work, but the evidence is primarily anecdotal--"my Aunt Emmie took goldenrod enemas and it cured her colon cancer". There is little real research on the stuff they use, and in the case of Aunt Emmie who decided to self treat herself--did she really have cancer, or just hemorroids? And, some of the Homeopathic/Naturopathic stuff is toxic (even highly toxic), and not under FDA control for potency, labeling, etc. I'm not personally wild about some things that the FDA does, but once a traditional medication has hit the market, it has undergone lots of testing to show side effects, toxicity levels, and some kind of standardized dosing. As I said, some of the Alternative medicine stuff may work (and even work well), but until traditional medicine sees some research on it, they will be resistant to using it. And, given the malpractice situation--I can't see most doctors doing any treatments that they cannot back up with research proof. I have looked at some of the websites for Colloidal Silver, and have a tendency to agree with Drjarhead--it may work in lower doses, but it is probably toxic if you are not careful--I could probably self treat Tinea Pedis (athlete's foot) with soaking my feet in bleach, and it would probably work. But what happens to my skin after several times of that? AFARR
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 9:12:22 PM EDT
Granted alt. meds. are'nt for everyone but when conventional meds don't work you are left with very few choices. I saw a man go from having 6 to 8 weeks to live to being in better health than I am. His doctor said "I don't want to know what you are doing but whatever it is, don't stop doing it". I've been taking the CS for several years & earlier this year I had a heavy metals test done, for other health problem, & the test came out good. I take it every day & I make the batches strong. As far as not being safe or not enough research, there are very few conventional meds which do not have side effects on many people, even fatal in some instances. I guess at times I am my own controlled study as far as dosage amounts but everything I take I have read up on & talked to others that take it as well. I understand where you guys are coming from but I have little faith in doctors anymore & have to do what I can myself to stay somewhat healthy. ColtShorty GOA KABA COA JPFO SAF NRA "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 9:54:33 PM EDT
Colt, More power to you if you can keep yourself healthy by whatever means. If the CS works fine for you, that is great. One thing to be aware of is the possibility that the Colloidal Silver is not what is keeping you healthy--it may be that you are now focusing more on your health every time you make it. Are you eating better than you used to be, etc? Good Shooting, and hope to see you back at the Pit.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 3:29:57 PM EDT
my company offers a product called silver immune that is used in the exact same way that del and colt have described for CS. trace amounts are beneficial. ever wonder where the phrase "born with a silver spoon in his mouth" came from? in general it means that they's rich. but children who grew up in rich families (with silver spoons) were less likely to get sick. those who didn't, got sick more often. here are some sites with info: [url]http://www.clspress.com/silver.html[/url] [url]http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/PhonyAds/silverad.html[/url] [url]http://silverdata.20m.com/[/url]
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 3:35:25 PM EDT
yeah good one...I prefer Hg instead.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 4:38:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARlady: my company offers a product called silver immune that is used in the exact same way that del and colt have described for CS. trace amounts are beneficial. ever wonder where the phrase "born with a silver spoon in his mouth" came from? in general it means that they's rich. but children who grew up in rich families (with silver spoons) were less likely to get sick. those who didn't, got sick more often. here are some sites with info: [url]http://www.clspress.com/silver.html[/url] [url]http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/PhonyAds/silverad.html[/url] [url]http://silverdata.20m.com/[/url]
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From my experience CS works in trace amounts as well as the higher PPM doses. I have done extensive research on this for years before I made my first batch. Using PURE .9999 Silver, Distilled Water and NO SALTS You do not get the harmful compounds that are larger than .005 microns. The Ionized silver is smaller than that. What you do not use is passed away. Just like Vitamin c. As an antiviral/ anti biotic it has been shown to be effective. I have seen it for myself as well.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 6:34:09 PM EDT
If you're taking this stuff every day and it kills bacteria, doesn't it kill the bacteria in your large intestine and cause you to have diarrhea every day? If not, is it really killing the bacteria?
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 6:47:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AFARR: Colt, More power to you if you can keep yourself healthy by whatever means. If the CS works fine for you, that is great. One thing to be aware of is the possibility that the Colloidal Silver is not what is keeping you healthy--it may be that you are now focusing more on your health every time you make it. Are you eating better than you used to be, etc? Good Shooting, and hope to see you back at the Pit.
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I actually eat less now than I used to, the food grade peroxide I'm taking seems to have curbed my appetite some. About 1 1/2 years ago I stopped taking the CS for about 6 weeks, just to see if I noticed any difference. I did, what started out as a head cold turned to bronchitus in 2 days. I had to really hump on the CS & zinc tabs, the good ones not the store bought ones, to get healthy again. It took a little longer than usual to get healthy. I do appreciate you guys' concern, before I started trying these things I was'nt much of a believer either. Of course before I contracted this disease I have I never really knew what real pain was or how hard it is to live with it. But life goes on & I thank GOD for my daughter because she is what really keeps me going!! Always looking forward to the next get-together at the pit. [uzi] ColtShorty GOA KABA COA JPFO SAF NRA "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 8:57:27 PM EDT
Greetings, All! I would like to address a few points brought up in this thread. I'm really visitor to the forum, so please don't shoot me! Dr. JarHead: Silver is not a heavy metal, it is a transitional metal. As far as these fine folks "not knowing what they are doing" - no disrespect, but I think that mainly applies to you. Silver toxicity has been clearly established, and it is only the reign of ignorance that confuses those who have not taken the time to research the matter. On our website, we demonstrate conclusively that as much as 10ppm colloidal silver ( isolated silver ) is safe according to guidelines established by the EPA, and private studies that have addressed just these concerns. Those of you out there that are contemplating colloidal silver as a defense against biological warfare are wise people. There are no guarantees in such matters of health, but I personally know two people who contracted "skin-absorbed" anthrax who used colloidal silver as part of a protocol to defeat the illness. Colloidal silver will not kill anthrax in spore form, but there is every reason to believe that it CAN be effective against anthrax once it germinated. Pulmonary Anthrax is more of a critical concern, and I urge those who are using colloidal silver orally to consider exploring colloidal silver use via an oxygen nebulizer or ultrasonic humidifier - but by all means, please research carefully, because there is a concern with CS quality when delivering such a substance directly into the lungs. Also, keep in mind that it can take up to 72 hours for silver to reach a level of effective saturation in the body ( through oral use ). Consider adding a quality cayenne pepper extract to your treatment protocol, as cayenne is an excellent metabolic stimulant. Furthermore, it is always wise to keep in mind that ***with a high quality CS***, laboratory ( in-vitro ) studies have shown that a dilution of at least 9:1 ( 9 parts colloidal silver to one part pathogen ) is required to quickly elimate an infection. Now, obviously colloidal silver works differently IN the body. The body is constantly undergoing what, for our purposes, can be considered a dilution process. Colloidal silver ingested will not sit on or in an infection like it would in the test tube. Luckily, there is every reason to believe that the 9:1 ratio is not applicable in the body, because the body's immune system is already at work. What this indicates practically speaking, is that smaller doses of colloidal silver taken more often is probably more effective than larger doses once or twice daily. That's all I have for now... And may all of you continue to apply wisdom, even in the face of ignorant attacks like I've seen above. AVRA The Colloidal Silver Database Website A not-for-profit public education website http://silverdata.20m.com main site http://silverdata.20m.com/nebulizers.html nebulizer use
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 10:26:46 PM EDT
AVRA, Your joking, right? I stayed up for awhile tonight so that fellow ar15.com members wouldn't be swayed by your ridiculous assumptions. Your entire "science" is based on supposition and inuendo. It is the worst science I have ever had anyone presented to me and I'm periodically hit up by a large number of you mental midgets attempting to rip off the general populace. 1)You obviously haven't even a basic knowledge of chemistry. Transition and post-transition metals ARE heavy metals. That's first semester chemistry. By your definition mercury and lead, etc would not be considered toxic, either. What about arsenic? It's a metalloid. I guess that makes it safe, also. 2)The first info on your site is a DISCLAIMER: a)states this should not be construed as medical advise. b)Should be construed as "written fiction". Hey this is your site. Not mine. c)none of this has been "evaluated by any government regulatory agency" 3)Best research on long term use done by a Pakistani Dr. who was an engineer and not an MD or any other health care professional. His research was a joke and anyone who has ever done any controlled study will tell you so. 4)Also from your own site: "no conclusive research conducted demonstrates an ideal(or effective) dose for any condition." Read that one again. 5) A Dr. Ronald Gibbs (if he were an MD I have no doubt it would say so) discovered that a 9:1 to 20:1 ratio of silver to bacteria concentration was required for effect. I want all of you to think for a minute about just how much that would take. Oh, it works differently "in the body"? How convenient for you. From your site, again:"Colloidal silver has not been proven to do anything within the body." I guess you're right. It does work differently within the body. That's sarcasm for all of you with central nervous system damage out there. 6)Your so-called reports on file are laughable. Essentially all of your info is meaningless. 7)Your site infers that the FDA will not approve of medicinal silver usage due to a poosible silver shortage. How do you get anyone to believe this crap. First, any treatment that was safe and efficacious would be utilized by the medical community. The idea that physicians would prevent their patients from getting useful treatments or cures is preposterous and is only perpetrated by the ignorant. Second, there is nothing close to any silver shortage. I could go on much longer but its late so I hit the high points or maybe in your case the low points. I would urge any of you considering using this to read this site with a scientific mind. If you are not interested I wouldn't rec wasting your time. I love the way you jump on the anthrax bandwagon also. Have you no shame? Clearly you, AVRA, are the ignorant one and I suggest you get some kind of real education. This time maybe you should actually study.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 2:56:56 AM EDT
I'm not a physician, but I know a little about business and scientific method since I am an engineer. From a business standpoint, if CS was everything it's touted to be, then why aren't the drug manufactures jumping on it? If money could be made from this stuff, you sure as hell can bet the drug companies would be on it. And where are the clinical studies? It seems to me there is no research or clinical studies that prove it to be useful. And the FDA does not approve drugs that simply won't harm you -- they have to be effective as well. Until the efficacy of CS is proven, I for one certainly would not take the risk. I don’t know, it smells of snake oil.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 3:06:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2001 3:44:17 PM EDT by ARlady]
Originally Posted By mattja: I'm not a physician, but I know a little about business and scientific method since I am an engineer. From a business standpoint, if CS was everything it's touted to be, then why aren't the drug manufactures jumping on it? If money could be made from this stuff, you sure as hell can bet the drug companies would be on it. And where are the clinical studies? It seems to me there is no research or clinical studies that prove it to be useful. And the FDA does not approve drugs that simply won't harm you -- they have to be effective as well. Until the efficacy of CS is proven, I for one certainly would not take the risk. I don't know, it smells of snake oil.
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good point, but by that same logic, why aren't the pharmaceutical companies jumping on the "all-natural" bandwagon. things like ginseng, ecinacea (sp?), etc. because there's no patent for ginseng. there's no patent for any of the herbs. only in the "concoction" of them. {edited to add the following} and as such there's no money for the research, except in purely research based scenarios. in addtion, the FDA does not approve/disapprove of herbal/alternative supplements for medicinal purposes; hence the "this product has not been evaluated by the FDA." as far as i know they are only subject to labeling guidelines. but there could be more. as far as some of the statements drjarhead was pissing and moaning about: companies are required to put that information on products. it's called truth in advertising. and that same information on the website is called honest and straight forward. would you rather that the website not put that information there and have people believe that it is a proven (via umpteen clinical trials, etc., etc., etc.,) medical cure? my company offers an entire line of nutritional supplements. [i]and those same disclaimers are required on each and every product. this does not, however, make them any less effective.[/i] and i swear by every one. i use a majority of them. and have never felt better in my life. likewise, i know a LOT of people that have benefitted from them. {edited the italicized part for clarification of my insertion of my oh-so offensive "sale pitch".} it's unfortunate that western medicine can't work WITH traditional/alternative medicine. afterall, what's the point of medicine in the first place? the patient or the pocketbook?
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 3:31:37 PM EDT
somehow, arlady, I knew one of you would come out with the "my company offers" line of BS. I have limited time now but will pick apart the remainder of your salespitch later.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 3:44:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2001 3:46:48 PM EDT by ARlady]
Originally Posted By drjarhead: somehow, arlady, I knew one of you would come out with the "my company offers" line of BS. I have limited time now but will pick apart the remainder of your salespitch later.
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first, explain to me how it's BS. second, there's nothing to pick apart. what could you possibly pick apart in "my company offers a line of nutritional supplement"? third, what sales pitch. notice i didn't name the product line. notice i didn't mention what products we have. notice i didn't mention specific benefits. notice, most importantly of all, that i didn't mention a price. i was merely relating my experiences with silver as a medicinal "drug" through which happen to be through my company. if you're talking about services or products your office provides, is it [i]always[/i] a sales pitch? methinks you're upset cuz i said you were pissing and moaning about the disclaimers. it wasn't personal. but you make it sound like the mere fact the disclaimers are present makes everything on that website (or anything with similar disclaimers) completely non-legit. that's just not true. roller coaster rides come with disclaimers. sales flyers come with disclaimers. most things in life have disclaimers. a disclaimer just means there are conditions which must be applied to whatever is the point. period. and i wasn't putting down western/modern medicine. just lamenting the huge schism between it and traditional/alternative medicine. why do you feel you have to attack me and insult me? have you nothing stronger to stand on than base insults? added: i've edited my previous post. i can almost see why you might have thought it was a sales pitch. i hope the additions make clear the reason i mentioned my company. so sorry to have pissed you off oh mighty drjarhead.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 4:59:59 PM EDT
I take cinnabar washed down with a shotglass of lsd-25.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 5:18:57 PM EDT
Arlady, AFAIK the patent on Aspirin expired years ago, yet drug companies still make money off of it. The same is probably true for Acetaminophen and Ibuprofen. Perhaps those are bad examples. But I do know researchers are always looking for more effective antibiotics, if not for anything other than to have something else to offer as new, antibiotic-resistant strains of microbes develop as the result of mutation and natural selection. This being the case, if CS were a proven antibiotic, you can sure as hell count on the drug companies to jump on it. This is not meant to discount herbal remedies. I mean, Penicillin came from mold, correct? And many of our most useful drugs are simply synthesized forms of naturally occurring chemical agents found in plants.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 5:26:53 PM EDT
A group of people at work use it and they seem ok after five years. They also make it themselves. That said, I haven't verified their claims about being less sickness prone.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 5:37:18 PM EDT
Wow! Sometimes you people crack me up. This reminds me of something that an acupunturist friend of mine once said. We were talking about TCM (traditional chinese medicine) and its uses. He of course practices TCM but has a western view of the "potions" that are commonly used. He said "Sure, a lot of the remedies work. But it's like driving a finishing nail with a 5 pound sledghammer. It gets that job done, but what happens to the wood?"
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 5:54:04 PM EDT
I have been using CS for years for the Flu and Sinus infections. As well as cuts and small wounds. I do not use it every day and feel no need to. Educate yourself [url]educate-yourself.org/csindex.html[/url] Colloidal Silver (CS) is a solution of extremely fine microscopic particles of pure silver suspended in water. For thousands of years, silver was the hidden ingredient utilized by knowledgeable healers such as Pliny the Elder and Paraselsus to fight infection. Hundreds of documented laboratory studies have confirmed that colloidal silver can resolve or mitigate more than 650 types of infections, often with greater effectiveness than drugs, and without the side effects or the exorbitant of drugs. Some articles and  web sites are devoted to the debunking of all alternative, non-pharmaceutical therapies, including colloidal silver. This intentional disinformation is being promoted by pro-pharmaceutical shills who want to freighten people away from using colloidal silver. Why? Because colloidal silver works too well, and the drug companies know it! If the general public knew how wide-spectrum and incredibly effective collidal silver is, people might begin to realize that they don't need to take all those expensive pharmaceutical antibiotics, with their wonderful side effects. When you consider both human and animal consumption of antibiotics, the loss would represent billions each month! The principle scare story used is always about [b]Argyria[/b], a rare blue/grey skin condition. For the past couple of years, the drug company debunkers have been dragging around a poor woman by the name of Rosemary Jacobs. Rosemary has Argyria and her skin has a slate-grey cast to it. The debunkers trot her out at press conferences and at medical conventions to demonstate what will happen to people who take collodial silver for a prolonged period of time. For many years, Rosemary used nose drops, prescribed by her doctor, that contained colloidal silver protein. Articles written by debunkers about Rosemary's condition will discuss her use of colloidal silver and type the initials "csp" in parentheses behind the words colloidal silver only once, at the very beginning of the article. For the balance of the article, they will use the term colloidal silver repeatedly and denounce it as the cause of Rosemary's condition. However, Rosemary's condtion was brought about by the use of a prescription drug, a protein compound that contained colloidal silver; and not colloidal silver itself.  They are two entirely different things. Hydrochloric acid, for example, is something entirely different than water and table salt, yet hydrochloric acid is composed of  the elements found in water and table salt. Pure colloidal silver is simply a superfine suspension of submicroscopic silver particles in water. There is No protein, No Argyria, and No problem. The debunkers would prefer to mislead the public to believe otherwise, however. And more often than not, they succeed, because fear will win out every time over positive, affirmative stories- at least for the naive, the easily manipulated, and the uninformed. I have never tried to use it pre-emptively. Always after the infection was set in or after being cut or scraped. I have seen it work more times than I can count.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 7:19:10 PM EDT
arlady, The mighty drjarhead is here. Though I prefer the "great and powerful". I guess that means a house fell on your sister, AVRA. For starters, as I stated earlier, I would get back to you when I had time. I spent my day taking care of patients and am just finishing up. I have far more to stand on in debunking you and AVRA-look at my previous posts. I guess any sound argument that doesn't agree with your snake oil pitch is an insult. So be it. First, I insulted no one. My initial posts were out of concern for members of the board, here. I stated that, "I gave good advice", which I did and stated that, "I spoke my piece." Someone here couldn't let that go. Someone brought AVRA in here to INSULT ME. Not the other way around. Well, she got in over her head. I suppose she thought I'd never bother to look over her site. As I said, the "science" presented there was of the worst kind. You and the rest of the quack remedy bunch are always trying to find MDs to legitimize your products. I've been hit up for herb, salts, mineral, ridiculously expensive vitamins, Hair testing for diagnosis, magnets, you name it. Now I've been offered fair amounts of cash for taking part in such schemes and can only assume that my colleagues have experienced the same. Second, you make a point that everything has disclaimers. That is true up to a point. However, the entire site I say was little more than disclaimers. I urge all of you to look at my previous post. Read all of the disclaimers. Everything there should be construed as "written fiction". These products have not been shown to "have any effect inside the body". I'm not making this up. That's what is said on that site. And far more. When I treat patients I can reliably tell them what will help and what won't-without any disclaimers. Further, you called it "truth in advertising". Once again see the quotes above and my previous. I guess those are the truth. This is what the site said. Anyone may go and check it out themselves. I can assure you that I only hit SOME of the most ridiculous comments there. You can all check the time on my post. I could have gone on much, much further but even the great and powerful drjarhead needs some sleep. Third, Medical care and science advance based on the scientific method-that's what its called. You have to demostrate to some reliable and reproducible way that something works in order for it to be assumed to be true. Every medication released by the FDA has gone through this process. It is not perfect but it does work. In fact, it is only since the FDA relaxed its study standards, due to all the uproar about AIDS pt's not getting whatever treatment they desired, that we have began to have a few more problems with med side effects, etc. That is one reason I don't generally use new meds on my patients until I've seen them used more extensively. Fourth, under the criteria in my third point it is your responsibility to prove that your product is both safe and efficacious. That's the way it works and your saying I've seen it work numerous times is what is known as anectodal evidence and simply doesn't cut it. Fifth, The point of medicine IS taking proper care of people, which is exactly why I don't use every quack remedy that is introduced by you or your other snake oil salesmen and women. I will comment on one other thing on the silver site(if you want me to keep going feel free to keep calling me out):
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 7:22:09 PM EDT
arlady, The EPA establishes standards for acceptable levels of TOXINS in the bloodstream or tissues not because they are completely without danger but because people who work in any industry are exposed to various hazards and they have to set a cutoff value. Most all of our jobs have some dangers and risks. That's simply the way it is. It is not meant to encourage people to ingest any of these substances or expose themselves unnecessarily. Finally, I encourage any of you who may think that I've exaggerated my comments and quotes from the site linked above to verify it for yourselves.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 7:50:58 PM EDT
Dr. Jarhead, A couple of thoughts-- 1. Regardless of the factual efficacy of the CS, you probably know how well the belief system of the patient aids healing. If someone believes CS is going to get them better, it may just do that (and if you gave them regular water and convinced them it was CS they would probably have the same results). That may be the basis of a lot of meds. 2. If the CS (and other naturopathic med.) manufacturers start to make medical claims, then the FDA can require that they become licensed and regulated. This is a two edged sword--it may work, but the company cannot afford to go through the investigational stages and licensing (especially if there is no patent on it). The other side of the sword is that it does not work as claimed, and the company is afraid to have that shown. Hence the disclaimers on all these herbal suppliments, CS, etc. 3. The PhD's in Pharm. that taught my Pharm. class last year did make a very few points about OTC/Naturopathic stuff, and the basic point was to know if your patients are on something and familiarize yourself with it to prevent any drug interactions. Other than that, they didn't say much about it. 4. I have a definite tendency to agree with you that until someone does controlled studies on these drugs/treatments, they are better left alone by traditional medicine. Once something is proved effective, traditional medicine usually starts using it. However, I do respect the people who desire to use the treatment (be it CS or something else) as long as they are making a reasonably informed decision. AFARR
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 8:37:36 PM EDT
Dr. Jarhead: You said that silver is a heavy metal and compared it with lead and mercury. I'm just going to let that sit in the air a bit, for anyone who wants to compare the differences. I pointed out it was transitional, because the property differences are clear. Take a look at the atomic weights, and show me one scientific report that demonstrates that isolated silver is toxic beyond the guidelines clearly established by the EPA. You throw rocks, but they are not very big. You question my disclaimer. How interesting. Our website is intended for thinking people, not sheep. It is also the only disclaimer in the world that can prevent this project from being shutdown if conditions become bad enough. Unlike you, I don't expect people to blindly "follow my good advice". Next, nowhere on my site do I cite a Pakistani doctor. My research studies are not even online yet. Next, establishment of efficacy ( as you should know, being a doctor ) is not a simple task. Efficacy of colloidal silver is conclusive in laboratory studies, conducted by the some of the top universities in this country. Because I am HONEST, and state that no conclusive data has been published, does not mean that colloidal silver does not work. The world was round far before it was proven so by a human. Next, it's classless of you to attack an individual who is not here to speak, and who has performed research according to all precepts of science. It is typical, however, and shows your real nature. I included the ratio study so that those not aware that such a study had been done could contemplate its implications. I didn't include it to convince cynics of efficacy. If I wanted to convince cynics, I would use a different approach. You are welcome to your cynicsm. Don't worry, I don't want to steal it from you. Next, the reports. If you'll notice, the database if offline. This is due to technical challenges I face with bandwidth. I agree, the reports information is very laughable. There are also logistic challenges in accurately portraying the information in a truthful manner. I'm still not certain which direction I want to take. However, I figure the individual with average intellegence can see that the reports are incomplete, not non-existant. Next - A silver SHORTAGE? Where did you get that idea? Do you need glasses? Or do you simply wish to slander? Next - You wish to think the medical community is not interested in colloidal silver, and there you are wrong. The FDA has already approved one colloidal silver product, and some European hospitals employ ionic silver on a daily basis. There is no profit in spending millions of dollars to "approve" a substance that cannot be patented. There is, however, a great profit in creating medical devices. Several companies are working on special compounds that release ionic silver into the body by using various bonding agents ( polymer based, I believe ) to deliver colloidal silver into the body. These formulas are patentable. I'm really dissapointed in your direction of attack. Frankly, you aren't qualified to debunk colloidal silver, nor my website. Educate yourself on the subject, and you might just find a few REAL valid points. I would much rather address those, because when one comes from the perspective of honesty and the respect for truth, actually LEARNING can occur - rather than simple propaganda and shouting.
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 8:44:38 PM EDT
One last thing Dr. Jarhead: Have you LOOKED at the way silver toxicity was established? No, obviously. You give your profession a very bad name. Take a LOOK at the studies that were actually done. I bet you've never looked at one, for anything... Because if you did, you wouldn't have stated that the EPA bases their toxicity studies from an industrial exposure standpoint. It is simply not true. Unless you think that factory workers inject themselves with toxic substances?
Link Posted: 10/8/2001 11:17:19 PM EDT
AVRA, A couple of questions: 1. You state that "Efficacy of colloidal silver is conclusive in laboratory studies, conducted by the some of the top universities in this country. Because I am HONEST, and state that no conclusive data has been published, does not mean that colloidal silver does not work." So you are saying that universities performed studies but did not publish? Or that the studies are inconclusive? 2. You state: "I agree, the reports information is very laughable. There are also logistic challenges in accurately portraying the information in a truthful manner. I'm still not certain which direction I want to take". I don't understand your point. The information it the reports are indecipherable to an average individual? In general, the studies I have read (I am merely a student, and have little experience with research) have a hypothesis, data and results and a conclusion from that data that either supports or fails to support the hypothesis. They don't usually sugarcoat the conclusion or try to give it in a "truthful manner", they just give the data and their conclusions--if others don't agree with their conclusions, that is why there are letters to the editors, and further research is done on the matter. 3. You mention a colloidal silver product being approved (as a student I have not heard of it, but that is not unusual) by the FDA. Can you tell me what it is so I can do further research? 4. I pulled a this off the internet in and amongst the ads seen for colloidal silver, plans, generators, etc. "Sadly, there is no evidence whatsoever that these products do what is claimed for them or that they are safe. The FDA, now barred by law from regulating such "nutritional supplements," stated as much in its 1995 Health Fraud Bulletin #19. Amazingly, even the National Nutritional Foods Association, which fought for the legislation that exempted these items from FDA oversight (the 1994 Dietary Supplements Health and Education Act, or DSHEA), recently began warning that colloidal silver products have not been proven safe and effective. Besides dermatologic and ocular toxicity, prolonged use of silver-containing products causes a permanent grayish to blue-black discoloration of the skin, mucous membranes, and even internal body organs known as argyria. Physicians who discover users of these preparations through their routine inquiries into supplement use (recommended!) should advise such individuals to discontinue their use." I did find some references to articles in dermatologic and toxicologic journals, but since I am not at school, I don't have access to the full text of those articles. 5. I am somewhat wary of what "European Hospitals" do on occasion, as I remember years ago reading about some experimental treatments that did not work. Sadly, I cannot find the particulars, but, I do know that "European Hospitals" can also refer to specialty clinics that only treat wrinkles, etc. 6. You make your most grevious error when you say "Frankly, you aren't qualified to debunk colloidal silver, nor my website." Anyone is qualified to debunk something. An elementary school student that finds an error in a research is qualified to debunk that research. The person doing the research is the one who usually has to give his/her bona fides that indicate their qualifications to do and present their research. AFARR
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 5:18:21 AM EDT
AVRA, Everything I stated is verifiable. Mostly from your site. Saying it isn't so doesn't mean much. Anyone here can easily verify what I have said though it is with difficulty that I would refer anyone to your site for obvious reasons. I could post arguments against virtually everything you say but it would be like striking at the wind as there is no substance to your belief system and this also is obvious from your site. Once again I would highly rec against taking colloidal silver but the people here are adults and do as they see fit. However, I urge you all strongly not to give this garbage to your kids.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 6:11:58 AM EDT
Why is it that folks who advocate the use of colloidal silver do so with something close to religious zeal? They very quickly go to personal attacks when the facts or lack thereof behind their beliefs are questioned. If there are legitimate double-blind university studies proving conclusively that a certain dosage of colloidal silver will consistently cure a certain condition in a certain percentage of people over a certain time, no ethical doctor is going to lie to his patients out of some nonsensical and nonexistent allegiance to the almighty Eli Lilly. Post a link to these studies, or give us an e-mail address where they can be obtained. Otherwise, I'll stick to Cipro and Zithromax. They kill bacteria dead, and I get no side effects from them.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 6:22:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 7:29:20 PM EDT
Greetings, again, all! Why thank you bee keeper! Yes, I do enjoy my passions! The zeal and frustration comes from ignorance being passed on as truth, and under the guise of authority! For my weakness here, I apologize! That said, how I love a real, good, and meaningful debate - one that has real value to real people. None of can always be right, myself included, but how I get right is being open to assault. I particulary like the comments/questions by AFFAR, who hit things so close to home! Meaningful questions, meaningful concerns. I'd like to address them point by point in a followup.
Link Posted: 10/9/2001 7:54:17 PM EDT
Efficacy of silver: Sorry, my statements lacked clarity. In-vitro studies conducted by top universities ( they do it ALL the time for silver products )have shown conclusively and scientifically that silver has incredible biocidal properties. Not that this has been in doubt. It is far less expensive to undertake an in-vitro experiment as apposed to "in the body". However, based on these studies, there is NO reasonable doubt that when silver ( in our case colloidal silver ) comes into contact with these bacteria/virii in the body, and the silver remains in the same form, it will be effective. The questions arise about how the silver travels through the body, and whether or not the silver reaches the infection to provide enough saturation to be effective, AND in an effective form. NOBODY has undertaken what would be considered an effective scientific study. So it has not been demonstrated to be true, nor false. Yes, the reports are laughable. The question is this: When is an experience simply a testimonial, and when is it very good data source? I'm not talking from a medical science standoint, but from an information standpoint. When does an obligation to public override a story - even when that story is true for that one person? These are questions I debate often. I have had some pressure to display testimonials, to harness the power of unity. I, however, believe stories should be shared from person to person. Argyria is a cosmetic condition MAINLY occuring as a result of Silver Nitrate, silver salts, and silver compounds. The FDA has no reports on file of Argyria as a result of isolated silver products. I could go further, but there is plenty of information on the website, including a query answered by nearly 200 long-term CS users, and a silver elimination study done by one private researcher, as well as a look at what HAS been demonstrated to cause any type of silver poisoning. I will mention two corporations that have received FDA approval for ionic silver. One is Medline Industries in Illinois. ( again, hospital focus becuase there is PROFIT in being able to market to hospitals ). They developed a wound dressing that uses a polymer to deliver silver ions deep into severe wounds. Again, if the silver reaches the infection... Silveron developed a patented and FDA approved dressing as well, that uses a different method to achieve similiar results. There are two companies I know pursuing FDA approval, one is in Stage II FDA approval testing for products to be used IN the body, and has received a Japanese patent for a biocial ionic silver device ( no big feat in itself ). I have personally seen some of these mentioned laboratory studies.
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