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Posted: 10/4/2001 10:02:06 AM EST
Springfield Armory's new Carlos Hathcock M-25 rifle is supposed to be one of the most accurate semi-auto sniper rifles in the world. What I am wondering is, how does it stack up next to H&K's venerable PSG-1 in the accuracy department? Has anyone out there fired either, and if so what do you think? I can't afford either at the moment, so don't be afraid to hurt my feelings. mattjedi[x] [sniper]
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 10:34:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2001 10:30:12 AM EST by SARguy]
Hi matt - I've not really seen the new Springfield yet, but I'm sure it's a winner. If you're going to go semi-auto, go Springfield! However, semi-auto isn't a good choice for sniper rifles. As for the PSG1... why would you pay $12,000 for a rifle that is mediocre at best? The PSG1's got a stamped sheetmetal receiver (don't worry, HK makes a nice dent-remover and touchup paint), is painted for a finish and at 18 pounds is a monster for a sniper rifle. It's really just an overweight semi-auto only assault rifle. I suppose that the LE guys out there that use it find it adequate for their engagements averaging 100 yards or less. At it's best, the PSG1 is a 600m weapon. But a scoped M4 will perform just as well in competent hands out to 600m or so. It may sound like I am being hard on HK. Well, I am in this case. The PSG1 is an overpriced, inaccurate, overrated weapon. Now, the USP line... SARguy like [:)] Get a Springfield is you just have to have a semi-auto. Otherwise, get a Remington PSS. 1/10 the cost of the HK and far far more accurate. -SARguy
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 10:41:01 AM EST
My gunsmith, George Gardener of GA Precision can build a better shooting and cheaper M21 than the Springfield. Here is his web site. His rifles are awesome..... [url]www.dennysguns.com/denny/precision.html[/url] The custom Remington based .308 sniper rifle he built me, shoots .375 MOA or better with hand loads.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 10:43:11 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 11:03:40 AM EST
Well, the M-25 does have a Krieger barrel. That's first rate. Yet most likely it is a 1 moa system anyway. Maybe 3/4 moa, at best. That is simply the best the M1A/M14 can do. And that is fine, 1 moa is all you need (it is all Hathcock needed: his .30-06 M-70 using M72 "special ball" was a 1 moa setup). One thing about M1As/M14s: they need to be rebuilt often to maintain top accuracy. The HK PSG-1 is truely sub-moa, per the tests I've seen. It is rugged, reliable, and very, very accurate. It is also heavy and very, very expensive. If I wanted a very accurate M1A, I'd get a reciever and have it built up by a custom 'smith who is well known for working on top-notch NRA Highpower rifles. If I wanted an even more accurate .308 semi, I'd go for something like an AR-10. Put a Krieger on that, and free-float it! Done right, it may very well be the most accurate .308 semi. The problem with AR-10s is they haven't had all the kinks worked out, and lack the rugedness of ARs, M14s, and PSG-1s.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 11:17:37 AM EST
Get'cha an AR-10T. That'll stand up to these other rifles. I'm not sure what kinks that DonS is talking about though. The point that SARguy is trying to make is rather weak. The .223 doesn't have the energy or penetration normally desired as a long range sniper rifle. I guess he was talking about a .223 anyway??? If not, sorry. A PSG-1 is a good rifle, just a little overpriced. Okay, maybe a lot. The AR-10T will only set you back about $2500 all rigged out. Maybe a bit more depending on dealer options. I was shooting mine last night and getting .5 MOA with military ammo. That's pretty good for right out of the box.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 11:27:54 AM EST
retro, the new Ar10 series have had a "few" growing pains, most of which are being worked out. Do a search on the ArmaLite forums. You will find a few kinks, although the company most certainly stands behind its product. The gun is improving, and the T may well be the best target-grade semi out there, but it is not "battle" proven like the M1A or HK design. Compared to the the PSG1, the Ar10T is a bargin, especially for paper punching. I thought I read where the new White feather was guaranteed ~0.5 MOA with match ammo? Not sure.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 11:32:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By retrodog: Get'cha an AR-10T. That'll stand up to these other rifles. I'm not sure what kinks that DonS is talking about though.
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Although similar to the AR-15/M16, the AR-10 has not gone through the same process that the true military arms have gone through. More reliabilty problems seem to occur with them. I would test a personal AR-10 more than, say, an HK-91, before it had my trust.
Originally Posted By retrodog: The point that SARguy is trying to make is rather weak. The .223 doesn't have the energy or penetration normally desired as a long range sniper rifle. I guess he was talking about a .223 anyway??? If not, sorry.
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An M-4 with an issue chrome lined barrel probably would fall short of the PSG-1s accuracy by a wide margin. Put on a Krieger and free float it, and the M-4 would probably be more accurate (If you could find a 14.5" Kreiger!). In any case, a 14.5" 5.56 is not really a 600 yard weapon, no matter how accurate it is! I would always choose a PSG-1 over an M-4 for that specific task, assuming I had the choice.
Originally Posted By retrodog: A PSG-1 is a good rifle, just a little overpriced. Okay, maybe a lot. The AR-10T will only set you back about $2500 all rigged out. Maybe a bit more depending on dealer options. I was shooting mine last night and getting .5 MOA with military ammo. That's pretty good for right out of the box.
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With [i]what[/i] military ammo? Even with military match ammo, 1/2 moa sounds too damn good! How many rounds per group?
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 1:05:55 PM EST
A PSG-1 the NRA tested shot .875 inch groups at 200yds. Group size was the average of three five shot groups. Load was 168 Sierra HPBT/IMR 4895-41.5grs/ LC brass. About 5 or so months ago a debate raged here over M25/PSG-1. It went about 10 pages long...!
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 1:58:55 PM EST
AC_Doctor made a fine recommendation, get a custom built M1A by a smith who will knows how to build to actual M21 or M25 specs instead of buy that over priced thing from Springfield Armoury. As for the discussion about most accurate or highly accurate semiautos. The M1A/M14 action is likely at the end of it's evolutionary process, the M21 and M25 have taken it to it's furthest and while getting quite accurate in it's precision form it requires a bit of maintanence to keep running smoothly and at it's most accurate. The PSG1 is old, heavy(though the accurized semis are all comparable in weight), and expensive. Most gripes I've heard about the thing though stem from it's rather limited choice in optics and that it's more of a 1MOA rifle out in the real world. It's reliability has been said to be very good though in that it holds it's accuracy through a wide range of conditions that could likley choke other accurized semiautos, merit of the G3 action I suppose. But then there's the AR10, relatively new tech and just arrived on the market(say it's been around for a decade, that's still relatively new as compared to the older PSG1 and much older M21) it has indeed gone through some growing pains but many shooters recognize it's potential and have high hopes that it will surpass both the M21/M25 and the PSG1 as the preferred accurized semiauto for use in designated marksman roles. It really has a quite a fair number of advantages over that of the M21/M25 and the PSG1 that really makes people take note of it, they're just waiting for it to fledge a little further from the nest before they have as much faith in the design as with the older M14 based rifles and the PSG1. Not that these guys really want to lay all their faith on a semiauto platform, they're still all pretty solid bolt action fans. Honestly, the AR10/SR25 action is the one I'm rooting for the most. Just needs to have the quality control bugs worked out of the things at the plant when assembled, still though both guns are pretty much production rifles where for the most part they haven't gone through the same sort of hair pulling knit picking detail that most bolt action sniper rifles have had applied to them through their build up when the action gets trued and detailed. Take an AR10/SR25 action and apply that sort of level to detail(more than what the factorys can do I'm positive) and hopefully an experienced/knowledgable smith will turn it into a rifle that accomplishes everything one could hope for in a semiauto marksman's rifle where both reliability and accuracy are key. George Gardner also makes a mean AR10 as well from what I hear, not to mention his bolt action rifles are highly sought after. His name is one of the ones I've got in my consideration list for having an accurized upper built to order for my AR10, I'm just too broke to give him a call just yet and have a serious talk about it. AC_Doctor, I still get over to the roster every once and again but not as much as I used to. Got a new job that requires me to leave the house every morning by 3:30am so I'm spending more time sleeping and less time surfing and typing. Hope the ol'brewmaster and his M25 are doing alright, haven't talked to him for quite some time.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 1:59:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2001 2:01:09 PM EST by uglygun]
Noname, I was likely one of the people most responsible for making that thread snowball a few months back. Who do you think brought in those M25 and SR25 guys to join in the debate? [8D] Though in my opinion I'd love to own one of each of the more accurate semiautos that were the subject of that old thread, that was also the old forum too. mattjedi, the old discussion pretty much left everybody in their respective corners where the designs of the actions and configuration played an important role in the reasons they preferred the rifles they own so much over that of the alternatives. When it got down to talking about average group sizes all of the actions pretty much were running neck and neck where 1/2 MOA results were not out of the ordinary no matter if it was a PSG1, accurized AR10/SR25, or accurized M1A/M21/M25. The one thing I can say about the Springfield M25 that stands out in my mind as being something I like is the custom mount they installed. The side mounts for the M1A have been the topic of considerable debate from time to time with the Springfield side mounts being labeled as crap, the ARMS and Brookfield mounts are highly sought after for serious use on an M1A that you might bet your life on. The Springfield base that is mounted directly to the receiver does away with that, being a fan of AR type flattop receivers the Springfield mount solution is to my liking even though it does away with the iron sights of the M1A. retrodog, some of the "kinks" I've heard reference to involve SR25s that saw use back during the time of DesertStorm where a few of the things didn't have their gaskeys properly torqued or staked in place and that turned their reliability and reputation into a perverbial pile of dog doo. Over the years I've heard of an AR10 or two that had the same problem where the gas key needed to be retorqued and then staked because it was missed or improperly done, get a loose gas key and the AR10/SR25 action will have fits. That sort of issue just needs to be fixed with a strict factory/assembly line quality assurance policy. There have been a few other little quirks but compared to the gas key issue they are pretty minor and the reputation of the AR10/SR25 action is indeed improving in my opinion.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 2:30:55 PM EST
The price you or I would pay for a PSG-1 is much different than what LE or military would pay (just like the MP-5 family). I imagine the price they pay is similar to the other platforms mentioned here with optics. As for accuracy and reliability. I doubt the PSG-1 can be beat. People over at HKPRO have posted pics of insanely small groups. I'd link them but the forums are down. Personally, I say if you want that kind of accuracy, buy a bolt gun and save a LOT of money. I find it curious that people question the durability of the HK family of arms at AR15.com. HK's seem much more durable than the AR platform. No shot against the AR, but the HK's are overbuilt.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 2:51:02 PM EST
After owning an AR10 for awhile I've come to the conclusion that it's a pretty serious chunk of metal, note I didn't say steel [;)] Anyhow, accuracy I believe that the AR10 is gonna turn out to be the action to beat in years to come. Reliability? The HKs do get that in spades and the way I see it they are hard to beat and hold some ground over the accurized AR10s there. Depending on the planned or invisioned use for the accurized semiautos I feel a person should decide whether or not they want to compromise a little bit of reliability to obtain a bit more accuracy or if they want to compromise a bit of accuracy to hold onto as much reliability as possible. For my use I'm gonna go the AR10 route looking to see just how accurate the rifle can be made, 2-3 uppers are planned but I just need the cash before I can go off in pursuit of ittybitty groups. But my use is concerned with accuracy alone and while I'd like it to be as reliable as possible if it turns out that it can't handle abuse or is hardly considered to be a battle rifle then so be it, nor do I want to try to go after the HK reputation for reliability. Just the accuracy [:)]
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 2:53:14 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 3:11:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By DonS: With [i]what[/i] military ammo? Even with military match ammo, 1/2 moa sounds too damn good! How many rounds per group?
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I get .33 MOA W/5 rnds.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 3:13:37 PM EST
DonS, three shot groups Ammo: What is says on the box: Made in England R.G. 13.4.89 7.62mm Ball L2A2 Cost: $4.50/20 Rifle: AR-10TLW Purchased last Saturday Shot yesterday evening Scope: Used Tasco World Class TS832X44DS Japanese version, not Korean/Taiwan/etc. My friend who I was shooting with was shooting his Colt Govmnt Match 20" bbl with trigger mod. He about had a fit when he saw what I was doing after a few minutes of sighting in the scope. Several of the holes were touching or overlapping. It was even pretty windy yesterday. I don't think that matters at that range though. I'd like to point out that although the AR-10 isn't battle proven it is still the latest version of the Original AR design. It was only after 57's award by the military to the M14 that the design was then altered and advanced (quite a bit I might add) to make the AR-15/M-16. They later took the design mods that were battle proven and retrofitted them into the AR-10 of today. Of course that is with the exception of the forward assist, I don't have one of those on my AR-10TLW. I'm not sure about the others though. Of course there may be a few kinks to work out, not that I was aware of them before or that they really mattered to me, but I think I would rather depend on Armalite to support me instead of HK. I have some of their guns and their customer service is poor to non existent,,, but sometimes you get lucky. I have a lot of experimenting to do with my new toy but I'm still sticking with believing the AR-10T to be the best bang for buck and capable of matching (within reason) other rifles that cost much much more. Just my opinion so don't try to kick my ass or anything. [:D]
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 3:16:11 PM EST
I'm with the bolt gun guys. I have a 700pss with a Leupold tactical scope on it for a lot less money than either of the semi autos. You only need one shot anyway right? Don't get me wrong though, I would love to own either a PSG-1 or a M25. Just my 2 cents.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 3:53:23 PM EST
brouhaha, I'm totally missing HKPRO right now. Best guns discussion forum on the net IMHO. Regarding PSG-1 vs rest the rest... An accurized rifle will approach or match the accuracy of a PSG-1, but probably won't stand up to the same level of abuse. These rifles will stand up to more than the abuse that you or I would put them through and suit our needs nicely. As mentioned though, bolt gun with a fine chunk of glass is my choice. In 308 or 7mm, why would you need another shot? In a 30 cal magnum like 300 wtby, 300 win or 300 ultra, you definitely wouldn't need another shot! I guess it's all boils down to what you are looking for and what you can afford. I have a very high opinion of all the rifle mentioned.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 4:01:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By retrodog: DonS, three shot groups
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How well do the groups superimpose? Now I always shoot ten shot groups. Statistically, your shots group as a two dimensional Gaussian distibution. That means that most will be close to the center, although some will fall farther out. Small group sizes can lead to claims of, say, 1 moa performance when the true performance is perhaps 1.5 moa.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 4:05:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2001 4:02:50 PM EST by uglygun]
DonS, I'm in the same boat with you. I started doing 10 shot groups about a year ago to evaluate my ammo. I used to get a majority of my groups showing up as 1/2 inch 5 shot groups but every now and then I'd throw a 3/4 inch 5 shot group, shooting 10 shot groups revealed that about 2-3 shots out of 10 can be expected to be thrown out there to open the group up to 3/4 inch. Having done a lot of these 10 shot groups I'm fairly comfortable with calling my custom AR15 a 3/4 inch capable rifle, often times 6-7 shots of the 10 shot group are holding in there at 1/2 inch or less(sometimes much less) but a few errant shots will go opening the group size up and I'm not one to throw them out. Thankfully my handloads have a lot of room for improvement so maybe one of these days I'll get a 1/2 MOA average with a really nicely tweaked handload. You can bet I'll be doin the same thing for the AR10 as I whip it into shape.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 4:22:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By SARguy: The PSG1 is an overpriced
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True, it's very over priced. Although it sold for $5,000 before being banned, the current market has pushed that price to incredible highs.
inaccurate
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Now this is where you're horribly wrong. You're speaking about something you obviously know nothing about. I own a PSG1, among other tactical rifles, and the PSG1 is extremely accurate. Here's a sample 225 yard, 5 shot target that I personally fired using my PSG1. It's less than 1/2 MOA. The PSG1 can do this with incredible consistency. [img]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1207778&a=9992179&p=33336529[/img]
overrated weapon.
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Yes, it often is. It's not a military sniper rifle by any stretch. It's too unwieldy and heavy. It's better suited for police type applications, but even then it's not the best in this role either.
Otherwise, get a Remington PSS. 1/10 the cost of the HK and far far more accurate.
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Wrong again. I own three PSS's with Jewel triggers, 11 degree crowns and lapped barrels. My .308 PSS and my PSG1 both do about 1/2 MOA. I've gotten slightly smaller groups at 300 yards with my PSS but it's not nearly as consistent as my PSG1. You're right about the PSG1 only being useful out to 600 meters. The scope is a 6x42 and its BDC is only calibrated to 600m. With more powerful optics it's just as capable as any other .308 in its class. Do you think its bullets magically get less accurate as the range increases? Here I am shooting my PSG1: [img]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1207778&a=10325184&p=34822295[/img]
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 4:22:41 PM EST
For what its worth, I had a stainless national match synthic stock M1A that shot a concistant .244 5 shot group at 100 yds. and .455 5 shot group at 200 yds. with select handloads. I now have a AR10T that I just got to shoot today (a long story). It shot .500 at 100yds. 5 shots. and that was with the wind gusting from 10 to 20 mph. Needless to say I can not wait for a windless day!!!
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 4:23:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By DonS: The HK PSG-1 is truely sub-moa, per the tests I've seen. It is rugged, reliable, and very, very accurate. It is also heavy and very, very expensive.
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You're spot on regarding the PSG1.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 4:25:35 PM EST
I just love these threads, they pull people in from everywhere at the drop of a hat [:)]
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 4:46:24 PM EST
Sorry for the possible statistical error. I majored in Electrical Engineering and don't even remember anything from statistics. I'll be trying some match grade ammo soon and then see what she'll do.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 7:09:48 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 6:33:12 AM EST
Hey wgunn, your fly is open. [:D]
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 6:56:48 AM EST
What about the MSG-90 (IIRC) the PSG-1's less expensive little brother?? Remember the 1st shot, the cold barrel shot is all that really matters to a "sniper". A consistent rifle that "settles down" after it warms up isn't good. The first shot and every other shot must go were it is directed. PSG's are supposed to be able to do that. M-25's are surely excellent rifles too. The are a little different, more of a "field" rifle, or a souped up M-14. As far as bolt vs. semi....... The PSG-1 was requested after the Olympic massacre in Munich. In that incident Polizei snipers couldn't effectively return fire, the snipers got suppressed and people died. They wanted a semi so they could engage more than one target or 1 target multiple times immediately. I think all the rifles you guys listed are great, it just depends what the shooters tastes and needs are.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 7:17:53 AM EST
All your Sniper Weapon are belong to us.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 7:38:38 AM EST
I can only speak to the weapons I have fired, and will not make sweeping generalizations. My HKSR9T, which is a postban -91, poly barrel, factory selected for whatever makes them accurate, with a PSG1 trigger, grip, and MSG90 stock, TASCO ss 10x, will put 10 rounds of my second ever batch of Sierra MK handloads into .9 inch at 100, and I think it will do better after I regain my discipline. On the same day, I connected 5/5 several times at a 43" high ram at 800 yards, using both the mil dots and scope elevation adjustment. I know a guy who has the same rifle that he say's won't break an inch no matter what. MY Hk is NOT inaccurate, I don't worry about "denting" the sheet metal receiver, and it was not too expensive, as evidenced by the fact that I bought it.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 8:02:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2001 8:08:48 AM EST by SARguy]
Originally Posted By wgunn: You're speaking about something you obviously know nothing about.
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So William (or is it Hudson Kane?), You'd be the same pogue that had his ass handed to him by the guys over at specialoperations.com. What's the matter? Were the big bad operators over there too much for you? I really like how JY, Sharky, josephy, Gunny Hicks and the rest of the real deals exposed you as being the mall-ninja that you are. What was one of your quotes over there? Was this it? Originally posted on the specialoperations.com bbs by william gunn...
Our mission specialists carry out covert ops in some of the hostile environments in the US. I've faced down punk gang-bangers rolling on X and packing TEC 9's with 32 round magazines loaded with "cop killer" bullets with my PSG1 and even the glare of the fluorescent lights in Marshal Fields didn't inhibit me from taking the 200 yard shot. Extreme accuracy is a MUST in such situations where women and children trying to enjoy their shopping experience line both side of the corridor.
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The only thing you know about is what you read on HK's website. Feel free to pony up your credentials here. Just like you wouldn't do over at soc.com after multiple requests. What Marine unit were you with? I'd like to know. Post it here. Let's hear your experience. Otherwise, go away and post your dribble on gaming boards somewhere. You'ge got NO credibility with me. -SARguy Edited to add: Not slamming HK here.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 8:08:38 AM EST
Uhh... Correct me if I'm wrong, but references to long range rifle shots near Mrs. Fields are, GENERALLY, regarded as tongue in cheek, a la Gecko 45.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 8:35:29 AM EST
SARguy. I believe it was not William Gunn who started the BS about Mall Ninjas on that thread, EXACT kind of fantasy bullshit stories have appeared at HK91.com and on other boards a long time ago.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 9:03:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By retrodog: Sorry for the possible statistical error. I majored in Electrical Engineering and don't even remember anything from statistics. I'll be trying some match grade ammo soon and then see what she'll do.
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A Gaussian distribution is the famous "bell curve". Assuming an accurate rifle with a free-floated barrel, the groups should pattern according to a 2 dimensional "bell curve" distribution. To put it another way, most of your shots will fall near the center, but some will fall farther out. With a small group, it is likely that all of the shots will hit close together, and you might think you are capable of, say, a neat 1/2 moa. You will probably discount some shots as "fliers", when in fact they are not. I got my BS in physics, then got a MS in EE. I TA'd statistics for EE's. But I've forgotten most of it. The "white noise" that is so important to communication systems is Gaussian.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 9:30:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2001 9:27:09 AM EST by jean-claude]
Hey DonS; Let me describe how I figure my groups & tell me if it's legit. I generally shoot a 10 shot group. Using a T-Square, I draw a rectangle that encloses [i]all[/i] the shots. Including "fliers." Then I find the center of the rectangle. I call that the center of the group. Using this center, I measure the center of each bullet hole to the center of the group. {When shots overlap I try to honestly evaluate} I add up the distances and average by the number of shots. I call this number my MOA. Right or wrong? Thanks
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 9:32:59 AM EST
DonS, you and others like you with their statistical arguments are the reason why I so willingly started doing 10 shot groups. I had nearly forgotten all that I learned in statistics until a few shooters started showing how it relates to group size and that those "flyers" that a person so often hears the magazines talking about could infact be anything but a flyer and should not be discounted unless you're positive you as a shooter screwed up in some fashion. The real fun thing is when the hogs over on the snipercountry "duty roster" start to talk about long range shooting and throw in a bit of probability and statistics to determine what your maximum engagement ranges should be to assure a first round hit. A couple of them will also extrapolate the probability of a hit beyond the typical ranges based upon accuracy capabilities of the rifle/load, the precision of the shooter, and the size of the target at range. It's sometimes hard to believe that statistics can be such a large part of shooting until you start hanging around with those sorts of folks and then it all suddenly becomes clear. Fun stuff too, atleast to read. When the mere mortals(me) try to pull off these amazing feats of calculation often times the results end with steam pouring out their ears.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 9:44:05 AM EST
So SARGUY,.. explain why you dislike the PSG-1.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 10:14:21 AM EST
Originally Posted By jean-claude: Hey DonS; Let me describe how I figure my groups & tell me if it's legit. I generally shoot a 10 shot group. Using a T-Square, I draw a rectangle that encloses [i]all[/i] the shots. Including "fliers." Then I find the center of the rectangle. I call that the center of the group. Using this center, I measure the center of each bullet hole to the center of the group. {When shots overlap I try to honestly evaluate} I add up the distances and average by the number of shots. I call this number my MOA. Right or wrong? Thanks
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It looks to me that you are determining the [i]average[/i] distance from the center. There is nothing wrong with this, but when we speak of "moa" we are really talking about the overall group size. To measure group diameter, measure the distance from the two farthest shots in the group. You want to measure from center to center, but this is hard to do with good accuracy. Measure from edge to edge. Let's assume for a minute that the two farthest shots are dead on in elevation, but are off on windage (left and right). On the far left hit, measure from its left edge to the left edge of the far right hit. If you can't measure the left edge for some reason*, then use the right edge on both holes. If you can't use the right edge, measure from the left edge of the left bullet hole to the right edge of the right bullet hole, and subtract the radius of the bullet. If you were shooting at 100 yards, your moa can then be determined by dividing the group diameter by 1.05. Since the .05 is small, most people just take their group size at 100 yards as their moa. At 200 yards, divide by 2.1, 300 yards, 3.15, and so on. * The "reason" would be that the left edge of the farthest right bullet hole was taken out by another bullet hole.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 10:21:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By uglygun: The real fun thing is when the hogs over on the snipercountry "duty roster" start to talk about long range shooting and throw in a bit of probability and statistics to determine what your maximum engagement ranges should be to assure a first round hit. A couple of them will also extrapolate the probability of a hit beyond the typical ranges based upon accuracy capabilities of the rifle/load, the precision of the shooter, and the size of the target at range.
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One thing you always have to consider is that there are things that effect accuracy in a linear fasion, and things that effect accuracy in a nonlinear fasion. Wind, for example, has nonlinear effects. The result is that 1 moa performance at 100 yards does not necessarly translate into 1 moa performance at 600 yards. Consequently, looking at your 100 yard groups doesn't necessarly tell you what is going to happen farther out. Everything is just too complicated. The real answer is to go out and shoot, and see how you do. 300 yards is a good all around range for rifle shooting. For serious testing, do it a 300. Better yet, try shooting at the distance you expect to shoot at. Things like wind and errors in range estimation will also mess up real world shots. So go out and shoot. Use the math to get a general idea of what is going on, but don't spend too much time overanalyzing it.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 12:12:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By Cat: So SARGUY,.. explain why you dislike the PSG-1.
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Hi Cat, First up, I have limited experience with the PSG1. However, I base my views on what I do see and do know about. The PSG1 is not well suited for everything. It's a semi-auto based on a WWII design. The stamped sheetmetal receiver just doesn't inspire my confidence. The scope mount takes a limited range (one) of optics. It's basically just a G36 with a heavy barrel with a sexy stock. Like I said, while it's a fine LE type of weapon, it just isn't built to handle the rigors of extreme military abuse. Altho' at about 18 pounds it should be durable. I'm not talking about range use. I'm talking about hard field use. For the cost, it's a bad deal. Why would anyone want a sniper weapon that was good only out to 600m? Again, fine for LE, but not for military use (and I'm not talking about some CT unit using one somewhere). None of the Marines/SF/NSW guys I know are clamoring to get them. Why is that? I guess because those in the community aren't impressed. I respect their opinions. It's like me telling them that kerlix is better than an ace wrap to stop a bleeding gunshot wound. I'm not saying that HK is a bad company. To the contrary, I like their USP line a lot. I'm just being practical. Take care my friend, -SARguy Tuukka - Just going by the old thread at SOC. [;)]
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 12:25:10 PM EST
"A Gaussian distribution is the famous "bell curve". Assuming an accurate rifle with a free-floated barrel, the groups should pattern according to a 2 dimensional "bell curve" distribution. To put it another way, most of your shots will fall near the center, but some will fall farther out. With a small group, it is likely that all of the shots will hit close together, and you might think you are capable of, say, a neat 1/2 moa. You will probably discount some shots as "fliers", when in fact they are not. I got my BS in physics, then got a MS in EE. I TA'd statistics for EE's. But I've forgotten most of it. The "white noise" that is so important to communication systems is Gaussian. " posted by DonS I have to admit that all this math is real impressive and sounds real good,,, but I mostly just think that if I can pick up my AR-10T and put three bullets withing 1/2" of each other I am really happy and whatever I just shot isn't feeling too much of anything at that point [;)] And I asure all you guys that when I get some good ammo, a nice day, and time to go play,,, I'll post on here how many shots I put in how much space and then you each can get out your little calculators and argue about what the groups were, if you care [:D] I'm no special ops dude or commando like some of the rest of you either are or claim to be. I'm just a simple country boy from Oklahoma (better known as North Texas) who was broken in with a Marlin .22 rifle and several boxes of Remington bullets. I've been putting holes through things for many years, breathing or not, with anything I could get my hands on. I don't get Buck fever either. I enjoy putting holes through stuff too much. I'm older now and enjoy much bigger toys, but I still like the .22 as much as ever, even though it's been pretty much replaced with a 10/22. Hanging around on this forum is a hell of a lot of fun cause there are always guys swinging their Johnsons around trying to impress each other, figuratively speeking of course. [}:D]
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 1:40:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2001 1:36:08 PM EST by uglygun]
Originally Posted By DonS: The real answer is to go out and shoot, and see how you do. 300 yards is a good all around range for rifle shooting. For serious testing, do it a 300. Better yet, try shooting at the distance you expect to shoot at.
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That's exactly what these folks are doing and why my thinking over the years has changed drastically. Most of the time when they are talking probability or statistics it's based upon factual data obtained for the distances they are talking about, if it's a 600 yard shot that is going to be taken then they sure as heck aren't gonna try to extrapolate from a 100 yard group and it's assumed that you've done a fair amount of shooting at those 600 yard ranges where you've got a significant sample size(recorded data log) to base all calculations or assumptions on. Ofcourse after all of that the real experience and "feel" comes into play where the real skill of the shooter plays just as important a role as well.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 1:41:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By SARguy: The PSG1 is not well suited for everything. It's a semi-auto based on a WWII design.
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Well, the M25 is a semiauto based upon a pre-WW2 design. And the FN-FAL and the AK series are also based upon WW2 designs. I'm not sure what is wrong with WW2 designs. The USMC M40 series is based upon the Remington 700, which they adopted for military service back in the '60s. But the 700 really is just one evolution of the Mauser '98 (and, IMO, the evolution haven't been all for the good).
Originally Posted By SARguy: ... It's basically just a G36 with a heavy barrel with a sexy stock.
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You mean G-3? Actually, it has some mods to make the reciever stiffer. And the barrel, I understand, is not just stiffer but of better quality. And it has a faster twist, allowing it to use heavier bullets.
Originally Posted By SARguy: Like I said, while it's a fine LE type of weapon, it just isn't built to handle the rigors of extreme military abuse. Altho' at about 18 pounds it should be durable. I'm not talking about range use. I'm talking about hard field use.
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Well, in as much it is based on the G-3, I'd have to disagree. Unless you know something specific, like "the long heavy barrel places too much stress on the receiver", I'll have to assume it is plenty rugged.
Originally Posted By SARguy: Why would anyone want a sniper weapon that was good only out to 600m?
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In the field, 600m is really pretty far out there. The USMC found that they were getting most of their kills at 600-700 yards. At 1,000, they were down to 50%. In any case, I'm not sure that the PSG-1 is limited to 600 yards. Does the scope run out of come-ups at that distance? If so, it should be possible to set up for another scope.
Originally Posted By SARguy: Again, fine for LE, but not for military use (and I'm not talking about some CT unit using one somewhere). None of the Marines/SF/NSW guys I know are clamoring to get them. Why is that? I guess because those in the community aren't impressed.
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Well, if I was a USMC sniper, I wouldn't want to be lugging around something as heavy as the PSG-1. Even if otherwise it was better than everything else. Compared to the later versions of the M-40, the PSG's advantages are all in its rapid follow up shot ability. I'm sure that if the USMC wanted PSG-1s with a longer distance scope, it would be worked out. My guess is that the USMC doesn't find fast follow up shots that interesting. Maj. Land, of Vietnam sniper fame, thinks that the current (and even earlier) versins of the M-40 are already too heavy. He actually prefers the original, lighter M-40. I think he's on to something. From my perspective as an armchair warrior, I would opt for something light, rugged, reliable, and capable of at least 1 moa. The PSG-1 fills the bill except for "light". It is also expensive, of course, but I suspect that is mostly due to marketing and importation issues . . .
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 1:50:45 PM EST
retrodog, I've never claimed to be a military sniper or anything of the sort. Have talked with former, LEO or military snipers though and have learned some things from their experiences and opinions. It doesn't really matter though in the end to me because my rifles are pretty much toys and while proven reliable for me I'll likely never have to have my life depend on the functioning or accuracy of my rifle in a sniper type role or engagement. Only reason I care about the shot to shot accuracy and consistency of my rifles is because it translates directly into more varmints killed. If I can't hold 1/2MOA for atleast 50-60% of my shots and expect to hit that then at ranges beyond 200 yards my hopes of hitting quickly grow more and more dismal. Accuracy does get my rocks off and I do care about it, but my reasons often closely relate to those of other more serious types of folks where their demands for accuracy are both similar and different all at the same time.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 2:44:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2001 2:58:49 PM EST by DonS]
Originally Posted By retrodog: I have to admit that all this math is real impressive and sounds real good,,, but I mostly just think that if I can pick up my AR-10T and put three bullets withing 1/2" of each other I am really happy and whatever I just shot isn't feeling too much of anything at that point [;)]
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Well, yes, but when one posts moa numbers, one is doing it for comparison. In fact, any time one bothers to record such numbers, it is for comparison, perhaps with prior or future shooting performance. And that's OK, but you just have to keep in mind that 3 shot groups can be missleading. Myself, I don't usually bother to measure my groups. I tend to go by my match scores, not group size. And I haven't shot off of a bench in a long time. I prefer to shot in competition, in either Palma (reduced to 300 yards at my local range) or NRA Highpower. I sight in and do all of my testing from prone, with a sling. You won't loose many matches if you can put all of your shots into 1.5 moa (from prone) at whatever distance you are shooting at. I've shot sub 1 moa 5 shot groups from prone, but I know damn well they didn't really mean anything. I am happy to shoot 2 moa groups at 300 yards, at the moment (10 shots, prone). My real goal, however, is consistent Master level scores. Edit: to add to the above, I have been using my Bushmaster XM15. I have modified it piece by piece to be a DCM/NRA Highpower service rifle. These are the the mods: trigger (BM two stage); free-float tube (Armalite); and sights (Bob Jones rear sight, Accuracy Speaks rear sight base, BM narrow front sight). I am still using the OEM chrome lined bore, which probably isn't capable of much more than 1 moa performance.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 4:06:20 PM EST
DonS - All this debate is fine and all. I know the HK is an ok weapon. But when the rubber meets the road in combat situations, the real boys out there aren't using PSG1's for some reason. Take care, -SARguy
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 4:33:30 PM EST
For more of the same disscusion, found on SOCNET. Some BTDT's observations. http://www.socnetcentral.com/ubboard/Forum135/HTML/000133.html
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 4:51:50 PM EST
This is a pretty cool thread. Everybody getting all opinionated and all. wgunn getting arogant and then SARguy calling him out. Pretty damn cool. Hey DonS, don't give SARguy too much crap. I got a real kick out of his thoughts. Hey uglygun, I wasn't talking about you earlier. Well I don't think I was anyway [:D] So I think that we should just take a couple of steps backwards and look at this whole deal. People get as touchy about you saying something about their gun as they do about their car or their mother. Hell, you can call their wife a bitch and they'll agree with you 9 out of 10 times but you dis their rifle and there will be hell to pay.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 5:00:16 PM EST
I think the M25 is way cheaper than a PSG-1. Let's say the M25 sells for $4000. The PSG-1 going price is what now $12000 plus. Pluses for the M25 is that procees goes to the Hatchcock family, it is definitely a collector's item, and 8000 more reasons to get something else.
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 2:56:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By SARguy: DonS - All this debate is fine and all. I know the HK is an ok weapon. But when the rubber meets the road in combat situations, the real boys out there aren't using PSG1's for some reason. Take care, -SARguy
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I'll bet that the reason is weight. Certainly, the basic design, in the form of the G-3 and CEMETE, has sufficient reliability and rugedness for military ops. Likewise, all the weapons mentioned in this discussion have sufficient accuracy to do the job. It seems to me that the major problem with the XM-21 / M-21 sniper system was the constant work required to keep them shooting top notch. While I really don't believe the design is capable of much better than 1 moa accuracy, that is really all you need. But it sucks if they are always being fixed. Note that match grade M1As require lots of work to keep them match grade. The USMCs M40s proved to be more rugged as well as more accurate. And they are much easier to keep shooting well.
Link Posted: 10/10/2001 4:58:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2001 11:02:48 AM EST by wgunn]
Originally Posted By SARguy: So William (or is it Hudson Kane?),
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Laugh, Umm... I am not nor have I ever been anyone called Hudson Kane. No point in lying dude, just because someone who has real experience with a PSG1 pokes a few holes in your comments. No one beat up on me at all on other boards. As a matter of fact I walked away from the PSG1 discussion with Mike and Gunny Hicks being friends. Again, no sense in lying to cover your false comments regarding the PSG1.
I really like how JY, Sharky, josephy, Gunny Hicks and the rest of the real deals exposed you as being the mall-ninja that you are.
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Nope, that never happened. Yes, I was accused of being countless different people but it was actually [b]proved[/b] I was not. Here you are trying to keep the old BS going on a different board when you already know the truth. Grow up.
Our mission specialists carry out covert ops in some of the hostile environments in the US.
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Never posted this. But then you already knew this. God, you're so childish.
Feel free to pony up your credentials here. Just like you wouldn't do over at soc.com after multiple requests.
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What the HELL are you talking about? Are you saying I don't own a PSG1? What does my service record have to do with my owning a PSG1 or your ignorance regarding it? By your own admission you have "limited experience" with it. I suspect that translates into "no experience" other than comments made by others and magazine articles you've read. Nice attempt to derail the conversation though. You posted BS about the PSG1, you got called on it. Try to live with it. Making false claims, lying about me or things that I have or haven't said does nothing but make you look worse than you already do. Oh, and I did post my service history. Feel free to contact Steyr AUG if you have any questions as he is fully aware of my rather modest service and he's respected on this board... if it means that much to you.
What Marine unit were you with? I'd like to know. Post it here. Let's hear your experience.
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Dribble? What ARE you talking about? The only "dribble" being posted here is your inaccuracies about the PSG1 and your false claims about me posting as Hudson Kane. Even more dribble is questioning my military service, which has NOTHING to do with this thread. I didn't make a single military service comment in this thread but for some reason you're using the same old troll tactic of derailing the thread because you were called on a false comment. Fact: I own a PSG1 Fact: It shoots sub-MOA and others have posted similar stories of accuracy Fact: You claimed the PSG1 wasn't accurate Fact: You were proved wrong Fact: You elected to defame me and post lies about me instead of defending your false comments. Fact: You brought up military service like most trolls do as if it has anything to do with this thread (and it doesn't). Grow up little man.
You'ge got NO credibility with me.
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Coming from a man who posts false comments then tries to defame the person who called him on it with lies and ruses... laugh, you're the one losing credibility. I don't care what lies you try to pass off about me in a feeble attempt to divert attention from your false comments. You're pissed about being wrong and I understand this is the only way you can deal with the blow to your ego.
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